If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Away with you chump.
God knows while you do not.
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People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....
If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...
As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".
They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!
No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.
They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.
Rekkd raises a valid point for people to reflect upon.
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Salam/Peace,
If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
Do you imagine that people who existed during the time of revelation were all cheerful and happy to accept the Quran? The Quran tells us its own history, and in that history we are told that the majority of recipients rejected, mocked, and ridiculed the Book and its messenger (crazy, magic, poet. etc..).
Most of us accepted the Quran based on the consistency of its message and the soundness of its words - it claimed it was from God and many of us accepted that was indeed its source.
Now, if you need the human element to convince you of the Quran, then perhaps its own proof has not hit you yet....
You get a nameless, unhistorical book in which you believe that it is words from God because it says so, how silly dont you think?
So untrue. The Quran gives us its name(s), it gives us its history, it gives us the reaction of those who received it as well as the messenger...What we know about Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Jospeh, John, Solomon, David, Mary, Lot, Abraham, etc. is all from the detailed Book that gave us their stories to the level which we need to know (no more, no less). That is a historic book par excellence...Silly is to read what the people invented and wrote about Solomon murdering people, or Moses wrestling with God, or Mohammed being a pedophile and a murderer.
I like this version of God and His messengers much more than the version(s) you are looking for.
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Rekkd raises a valid point for people to reflect upon.
Wht valid point? He hands his own judgment on people (you inluded) right and left, even lying, based on his also own opinions on them and does not give a single point to hold his judgment valid or invalid. Just an opinion, his opinion which he seems to consider the only valid one.
Salaam
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Peace Rekkd.
You have already established that no one here can give you an answer. So what do you do?
I have a request, if you do not mind. Please ,when you find those /or a person who gives you your answer ,come back and shared it with us.
I sincerely wish and strongly hope that you find an answer.
Your answer that you will be certain about. I mean you will not have a single issue nor any more questions that will cross your mind.Keep searching brother. Best of luck to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Rekkd.
You have already established that no one here can give you an answer. So what do you do?
I have a request, if you do not mind. Please ,when you find those /or a person who gives you your answer ,come back and shared it with us.
I sincerely wish and strongly hope that you find an answer.
Your answer that you will be certain about. I mean you will not have a single issue nor any more questions that will cross your mind.Keep searching brother. Best of luck to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I don't think anyone will be giving me an answer in this lifetime. I have to figure it out myself, I have reached this point by always questioning my beliefs and what I've been told by others.
Yes I do like to listen to other points of view and learn more from others, no matter who! 2 weeks ago I was at a McDonalds eating and this homeless man full of anger starts talking to me in Arabic, as I look Arab. He's complaining about life, the jews, the states, etc... At then I asked him "Why do you think we are here", ofc his answer was to worship Allah.. I kept asking why and how and I got the same answers every muslim knows. What I'm trying to say here is I listen to everyone, I don't care if that person is a professor, a president, a scholar or a homeless uneducated man. I like to understand people, I'm very curious about everything and I ask myself a million questions a day.
Now back to the topic. The problem I find here is people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran to fit with modern society AND to alter the crazy verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.
We are so attached to this life, our prayers are worldly, our image of heaven is wordly, our fears of punishment are wordly. All we think about are our finances, relationships, family, career, desires.... Meaningless. Yet our spiritual side longs for something that we just don't know what it is, that's why you have all these religions that were created by man to fill that gap. Sadly people believed whatever they were told.
God created this world with one simple rule! That everything happens for a reason. I know it's very clich? but look at the physical world, it all seems like a perfect masterpiece. And the method to understand our world is through science thus our creator's way of thinking is that there is a logical beneficial reason for our creation or we are part of a process for something to come. So worshipping or serving or that garbage is not the answer, as it is not logical and results to nothing for God.
Currently that's where I'm at right now, I don't believe in anything specifically but I do believe in a creator as it's the only logical answer. I will gladly share my answer if I ever find it, but no matter what, I think there will always be unanswered questions.
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Much more important than answers is the battles that we face everyday, and their outcome. And this never-ending repeating process until you start to win!!
People can believe in whatever suits them, but what determines who we are is how we come to being, something we know and experience with our own self with God as the witness. The rest is just beating around the wrong bush. -
Peace there can be no history or individuals in a guide that is timeless, that would be insane, all individuals and history that's claimed in translations is all due to the corruptions invested into the guide over the centuries, even the individual named Muhammed would not be relevant or mentioned, to do so would generate idol worship, it therefore is extremely unlikely any individual named Muhammed wrote the qur'an, and is much much more likely it was written as a collective effort, it is known the trivium was always the companion book of the qur'an until Islam was completely defeated around 1000 years ago, and the guide would be based completely upon the reasoned investigation of reality.
For the first 200 years Islam spread as an anarchic community model across at least a third of the Earth, rendering all hierarchies and sovereigns obsolete, no war or violence just establishing the anarchic models, this in turn removed riba, and riba was correctly understood originally as the guide would have explained it, this understanding is no longer applied or widely known, the old sovereigns still had the extorted wealth of old and used that wealth to create hadith, they then corrupted the guide with that tool, inventing the religion of Islam, and so removing the guide almost completely.
Can you understand the "RELIGION" of Islam without hadith, "no", as hadith is the religion of Islam, however Islam was never intended as a religion.
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Rekkd,
If you are genuine and logical (as you claim), make your own thread with the 5 strongest objections to The Quran that you can possibly fathom. Not any old 5, the strongest possible you can come up with after all your research/thinking.I've been a forum member for a while and my experience of people similar to yourself is the following
- they have no clue what evidence/answer they are looking for, hence will not recognise it even if its staring them in the face
- are not actually genuinely seeking the truth, and only to validate their pre-existing beliefs (or lack thereof)
- still look at Quran through the lens of tradition hence are blinded to what it's saying
- remain silent when challenged/questioned
I may be wrong of course.
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For the first 200 years Islam spread as an anarchic community model across at least a third of the Earth, rendering all hierarchies and sovereigns obsolete, no war or violence just establishing the anarchic models.
In that case there would not be first caliphs (rulers) who were sovereigns and thus had way more social power than random individuals. First calips up to the fourth Ali (whom Shiite attribute as one of the 12th Imams) were murdered in the in the faction wars for power. Ali himself did not want to pledge to Bakr, because he belibed himself to have the right to power due to him belonging to Muhammad's family. That faction bs is against pure political anarchy, which is based on communities and horizontal distribution of power rather than vertical. In anarchic societies communities vote for leaders, here however it is clear that the power was established through heritage (Muhammad).
That being said, I believe early Islam was a power vacuum for different sects/factions each blood/power thirsty, however the more organized version of Islam as we know it started later with the Abbasids or maybe a little earlier. That is when according to the common belief hadiths started getting politically recognized across the Islamic world.
So hadiths could exist before Bukhari and Muslim started compiling them, but they were not globally religiously recognized as a part of the religion due to many sects and leaders and the overall unstable situation. That may also explain the contradictions in these hadiths, because they were written or "memorized" by people of different sects/tribes/branches/you name it, so they all had their own version of these events and did not want their 'truth' to cede to rival sects. Before, however, Islam was divided between various clans and tribes, each acting like a gang due to power vacuum after Muhammad.
It's like watching the Godfather but in 630-750 AD. Nothing different, except pistols are switched with swords and dead fishes with heads on spikes.
Let's just be objective here. Power IS the greed for money, fame and blood (domination and exploitation of weaker people). It does not matter if the power is achieved by traditionalists (mafia) or under religious excuse. There is just no difference.
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Peace.
Makaveli, if as the qur'an repeatedly states the only sovereign is the creator, to have a sovereign would break the very guide you claim to follow, so no, there was no caliph sovereign at the start. All the history claimed of Islam before the invention of the religion is a fiction.
A power vacuum can only exist within a hierarchical structured system,it does not exist at all in an anarchic structured system. The understanding of the anarchic models is not well known sadly, and the majority have a very confused understanding of anarchic community, the propaganda of the hierarchical system attempts to confuse and deceive the majority so they will dismiss out of hand the anarchic in fear of what they falsely percieve.
Wakas, it is not the qur'an that is the issue, it is the translations and hadith, if you had the original qur'an as a translation it is likely you would reject it, as it would deny all your religious bullshit.
Now let me ask you some questions, as you seem to believe you're some kind of super religious brain
Why is riba "not" trade?
Why do you accept sovereigns when the qur'an repeatedly states the only sovereign is the creator even in the corrupted translations?
What evidence do you have to "prove" a god exists?
What benefit is worship of a god to you, or your community, or your god?
Why do you pray what benefits do you gain from a repetetive ritual?
What reason does your god have for a old stone building in the middle of the desert as a base and require muslims to worship around at leqast once in a life time?
I can go on and on, i'm not expecting much as a reply, the ususal religious crap, and a few pointless verses pasted, you could surprise me, but i doubt it. Normally religious people reply like a pigeon playing chess, they strutt around the board, knock all the pieces over and fly off in victory.
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Peace.
Makaveli, if as the qur'an repeatedly states the only sovereign is the creator, to have a sovereign would break the very guide you claim to follow, so no, there was no caliph sovereign at the start. All the history claimed of Islam before the invention of the religion is a fiction.
I am talking about political Islam rather than devotion/submission to God alone. In fact, Qur'an warns about criminals who rule (6123). Politically, Islam was always a bloodshed.
A power vacuum can only exist within a hierarchical structured system,it does not exist at all in an anarchic structured system. The understanding of the anarchic models is not well known sadly, and the majority have a very confused understanding of anarchic community, the propaganda of the hierarchical system attempts to confuse and deceive the majority so they will dismiss out of hand the anarchic in fear of what they falsely percieve.
As someone who has read Makhno, I have formed quite a bit of understanding of what is community and the revolt against tyranny. Any political regime which implies a higher ranked authority and where authority is gained by force and heritage is not anarchic and has a vertical structure of power.
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Even now many Muslims talk about uniting all muslim nations but it's just not happening because all of its branches or mashabs and even separate political groups pursue their own interests. At first Erdogan of Turkey (whom many muslims believe to be pro-Islam and pro-caliphate/Osman Empire and all this silly stuff they believe due to their patriotism) allowed ISIS soldiers to heal in the private hospitals in Turkey, but few months later they ceased any alliance and started a feud. Politics. They don't care about Palestinians, only care about themselves and their interests.
And I have no logical or historical objections, which would identify early Islam to be any different.
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Peace Makaveli,
politics is the expression of authoritative policy, for that to exist you need a hierarchical structure to impose the authority of the sovereign, therefore in an anarchic community model politics does not exist, and has no need to.
Muslims do not grasp the anarchic at all, they are stuck in the hierarchical mindset of the psychopaths, where sovereigns extort, riba is the foundation, and murder acceptable if you wear a costume of the owners.
There are several forms of the expression of riba, interest on debt is one expression, but ownership, taxation, profit and rental are other expressions, the alternatives in the anarchic model are far far better.
Only in an hierarchical system is murder in costume acceptable, otherwise to murder is to murder, anachically you would be always accountable for a murder, even with the sound of drums and the pay packet of your master rewarding your infliction of horror, as we are a single soul expressed fractually to murder is a great wrong against the soul and will destroy its foundation.
A State is a hierarchical expression of ownership, and completely un-Islamic, the original model was allodial not ownership, a State is a religious delusion not a true objective of Islam. The reality that ownership is a form of riba and a state is always a hierarchical sovereign based model, makes it against islam.
ISIS is a creation of state hierarchies of Israel and its allies, America, UK, France, Saudi royals, a collection of recruited mercenaries armed and supplied by those sources.
Anarchic community in its true form has no power to be gained or held, without riba there is no foundation for any hierarchy.
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Peace Rekkd.
I believe you are an honest person.You say ,quote
Now back to the topic. The problem I find here is people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran to fit with modern society AND to alter the crazy verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.My similar statement would be
Now back to the topic. The problem I find is some people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran if you follow most interpretations of Qoran to fit with modern society BUT we need to challenge the crazy interpretations of verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.like
Uubudu does not mean worship,Rituals/seeking GOD s help has nothing to do with "Uubudu". Uubudu is simply following the "straight path"-Al-Sirat Al-Mustaqueem -see "6151 -153. It is already in our instinct all humans "Fitrata Allah Allati Fatara Al Nas Alaiha"...
Yes brother Uubudu Allah just means Choose the straight path. ( Be a good human/do good works/have good morals...etc).
Anyway,Keep searching brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveli,
Salaam. My point was Islam was hierarchical from the beggining. Having a prophet who leads an army is hierarchical. Having a sovereign which is allowed and has resources to have a harem full of concubines as opposite to serf who only has few goats to feed his family is hierarchical. I believe it is a common misconception among many people who romantisize early Islam as a society which was politically horizontal and free from tyranny, but there are no objective or historical data to back this up. In fact, I was one of them, but it never made sense to for a number of reason
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why would not stronger Empires such as Byzantine conquer them right from the start? Because obviously hierarchical societies are far more organized rather than a community, where decisions are made through democratic means rather than from the top to bottom pyramide of power.
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why did later become an Empire under Abbasids? And if you trace how they established their power even from official hisotrical standpoint you will clearly see how many rulers and tribes were pretty much striving for power from the beggining. Muhammad as a figure was a mediator between those groups but after his death it obviously became a power vacuum.
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why there are no hadiths stating about such a prospherous time? Now I am not saying one should listen to hadiths and accept them as truth, but we are talkign about historically established Islam and it is based on sharia and other political instruments that take their origin from these writings.
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How could Islam be hierarchical when it is prohibited to have any other sovereign except the Creator, the single consciousness we share as a fractal nature, if you may have NO other sovereign you may have no hierarchical structure, to do so would invent a sovereign upon you and break the guide you claim to follow?
The anarchic models worked in other places for longer periods than in the middle east, after hadith from the persian elite was imposed in the middle east, it then took the vatican to exterminate those who continued to practice the original anarchic community islam free of religion. And by examining the old anarchic models they used for centuries we can see how well they worked and how they functioned.
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How could Islam be hierarchical when it is prohibited to have any other sovereign except the Creator, the single consciousness we share as a fractal nature, if you may have NO other sovereign you may have no hierarchical structure, to do so would invent a sovereign upon you and break the guide you claim to follow?
The anarchic models worked in other places for longer periods than in the middle east, after hadith from the persian elite was imposed in the middle east, it then took the vatican to exterminate those who continued to practice the original anarchic community islam free of religion. And by examining the old anarchic models they used for centuries we can see how well they worked and how they functioned.
Because Islam was never true to its original (Qur'anic) ideals. Perhaps it had devotees who stayed Qur'an alone (and were prosecuted) but Islamic societies were always ran by caliphs/monarchs and tribes. I agree that there are no monarchies in the Qur'an, but we either talk two different languages here or you fail to understand my point, which is I am talking about politically established caliphate and that is Islam as we know it. I just don't see how it was anarchic from the start when the bloodshed and power vacuum started with the very first caliph Abu Bakr.
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So now you believe islam never existed?
When the evidence shows it did?
Anarchic community did exist free of all sovereigns and riba based on the Islamic guide outside of the middle east up until around 1000 years ago.
If you want to install a hierarchical system when an anarchic one is in place there are two ways, money or murder, the middle east method was money, once you have your hierarchy installed you can rewrite history easily, and expunge all evidence that contridicts your invented histories.
there was no blood shed at the start, that is the hierarchical fabricated history.
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Abdun Nur u right about rewrite history
