If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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Much more important than answers is the battles that we face everyday, and their outcome. And this never-ending repeating process until you start to win!!
People can believe in whatever suits them, but what determines who we are is how we come to being, something we know and experience with our own self with God as the witness. The rest is just beating around the wrong bush. -
Peace there can be no history or individuals in a guide that is timeless, that would be insane, all individuals and history that's claimed in translations is all due to the corruptions invested into the guide over the centuries, even the individual named Muhammed would not be relevant or mentioned, to do so would generate idol worship, it therefore is extremely unlikely any individual named Muhammed wrote the qur'an, and is much much more likely it was written as a collective effort, it is known the trivium was always the companion book of the qur'an until Islam was completely defeated around 1000 years ago, and the guide would be based completely upon the reasoned investigation of reality.
For the first 200 years Islam spread as an anarchic community model across at least a third of the Earth, rendering all hierarchies and sovereigns obsolete, no war or violence just establishing the anarchic models, this in turn removed riba, and riba was correctly understood originally as the guide would have explained it, this understanding is no longer applied or widely known, the old sovereigns still had the extorted wealth of old and used that wealth to create hadith, they then corrupted the guide with that tool, inventing the religion of Islam, and so removing the guide almost completely.
Can you understand the "RELIGION" of Islam without hadith, "no", as hadith is the religion of Islam, however Islam was never intended as a religion.
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Rekkd,
If you are genuine and logical (as you claim), make your own thread with the 5 strongest objections to The Quran that you can possibly fathom. Not any old 5, the strongest possible you can come up with after all your research/thinking.I've been a forum member for a while and my experience of people similar to yourself is the following
- they have no clue what evidence/answer they are looking for, hence will not recognise it even if its staring them in the face
- are not actually genuinely seeking the truth, and only to validate their pre-existing beliefs (or lack thereof)
- still look at Quran through the lens of tradition hence are blinded to what it's saying
- remain silent when challenged/questioned
I may be wrong of course.
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For the first 200 years Islam spread as an anarchic community model across at least a third of the Earth, rendering all hierarchies and sovereigns obsolete, no war or violence just establishing the anarchic models.
In that case there would not be first caliphs (rulers) who were sovereigns and thus had way more social power than random individuals. First calips up to the fourth Ali (whom Shiite attribute as one of the 12th Imams) were murdered in the in the faction wars for power. Ali himself did not want to pledge to Bakr, because he belibed himself to have the right to power due to him belonging to Muhammad's family. That faction bs is against pure political anarchy, which is based on communities and horizontal distribution of power rather than vertical. In anarchic societies communities vote for leaders, here however it is clear that the power was established through heritage (Muhammad).
That being said, I believe early Islam was a power vacuum for different sects/factions each blood/power thirsty, however the more organized version of Islam as we know it started later with the Abbasids or maybe a little earlier. That is when according to the common belief hadiths started getting politically recognized across the Islamic world.
So hadiths could exist before Bukhari and Muslim started compiling them, but they were not globally religiously recognized as a part of the religion due to many sects and leaders and the overall unstable situation. That may also explain the contradictions in these hadiths, because they were written or "memorized" by people of different sects/tribes/branches/you name it, so they all had their own version of these events and did not want their 'truth' to cede to rival sects. Before, however, Islam was divided between various clans and tribes, each acting like a gang due to power vacuum after Muhammad.
It's like watching the Godfather but in 630-750 AD. Nothing different, except pistols are switched with swords and dead fishes with heads on spikes.
Let's just be objective here. Power IS the greed for money, fame and blood (domination and exploitation of weaker people). It does not matter if the power is achieved by traditionalists (mafia) or under religious excuse. There is just no difference.
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Peace.
Makaveli, if as the qur'an repeatedly states the only sovereign is the creator, to have a sovereign would break the very guide you claim to follow, so no, there was no caliph sovereign at the start. All the history claimed of Islam before the invention of the religion is a fiction.
A power vacuum can only exist within a hierarchical structured system,it does not exist at all in an anarchic structured system. The understanding of the anarchic models is not well known sadly, and the majority have a very confused understanding of anarchic community, the propaganda of the hierarchical system attempts to confuse and deceive the majority so they will dismiss out of hand the anarchic in fear of what they falsely percieve.
Wakas, it is not the qur'an that is the issue, it is the translations and hadith, if you had the original qur'an as a translation it is likely you would reject it, as it would deny all your religious bullshit.
Now let me ask you some questions, as you seem to believe you're some kind of super religious brain
Why is riba "not" trade?
Why do you accept sovereigns when the qur'an repeatedly states the only sovereign is the creator even in the corrupted translations?
What evidence do you have to "prove" a god exists?
What benefit is worship of a god to you, or your community, or your god?
Why do you pray what benefits do you gain from a repetetive ritual?
What reason does your god have for a old stone building in the middle of the desert as a base and require muslims to worship around at leqast once in a life time?
I can go on and on, i'm not expecting much as a reply, the ususal religious crap, and a few pointless verses pasted, you could surprise me, but i doubt it. Normally religious people reply like a pigeon playing chess, they strutt around the board, knock all the pieces over and fly off in victory.
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Peace.
Makaveli, if as the qur'an repeatedly states the only sovereign is the creator, to have a sovereign would break the very guide you claim to follow, so no, there was no caliph sovereign at the start. All the history claimed of Islam before the invention of the religion is a fiction.
I am talking about political Islam rather than devotion/submission to God alone. In fact, Qur'an warns about criminals who rule (6123). Politically, Islam was always a bloodshed.
A power vacuum can only exist within a hierarchical structured system,it does not exist at all in an anarchic structured system. The understanding of the anarchic models is not well known sadly, and the majority have a very confused understanding of anarchic community, the propaganda of the hierarchical system attempts to confuse and deceive the majority so they will dismiss out of hand the anarchic in fear of what they falsely percieve.
As someone who has read Makhno, I have formed quite a bit of understanding of what is community and the revolt against tyranny. Any political regime which implies a higher ranked authority and where authority is gained by force and heritage is not anarchic and has a vertical structure of power.
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Even now many Muslims talk about uniting all muslim nations but it's just not happening because all of its branches or mashabs and even separate political groups pursue their own interests. At first Erdogan of Turkey (whom many muslims believe to be pro-Islam and pro-caliphate/Osman Empire and all this silly stuff they believe due to their patriotism) allowed ISIS soldiers to heal in the private hospitals in Turkey, but few months later they ceased any alliance and started a feud. Politics. They don't care about Palestinians, only care about themselves and their interests.
And I have no logical or historical objections, which would identify early Islam to be any different.
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Peace Makaveli,
politics is the expression of authoritative policy, for that to exist you need a hierarchical structure to impose the authority of the sovereign, therefore in an anarchic community model politics does not exist, and has no need to.
Muslims do not grasp the anarchic at all, they are stuck in the hierarchical mindset of the psychopaths, where sovereigns extort, riba is the foundation, and murder acceptable if you wear a costume of the owners.
There are several forms of the expression of riba, interest on debt is one expression, but ownership, taxation, profit and rental are other expressions, the alternatives in the anarchic model are far far better.
Only in an hierarchical system is murder in costume acceptable, otherwise to murder is to murder, anachically you would be always accountable for a murder, even with the sound of drums and the pay packet of your master rewarding your infliction of horror, as we are a single soul expressed fractually to murder is a great wrong against the soul and will destroy its foundation.
A State is a hierarchical expression of ownership, and completely un-Islamic, the original model was allodial not ownership, a State is a religious delusion not a true objective of Islam. The reality that ownership is a form of riba and a state is always a hierarchical sovereign based model, makes it against islam.
ISIS is a creation of state hierarchies of Israel and its allies, America, UK, France, Saudi royals, a collection of recruited mercenaries armed and supplied by those sources.
Anarchic community in its true form has no power to be gained or held, without riba there is no foundation for any hierarchy.
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Peace Rekkd.
I believe you are an honest person.You say ,quote
Now back to the topic. The problem I find here is people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran to fit with modern society AND to alter the crazy verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.My similar statement would be
Now back to the topic. The problem I find is some people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran if you follow most interpretations of Qoran to fit with modern society BUT we need to challenge the crazy interpretations of verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.like
Uubudu does not mean worship,Rituals/seeking GOD s help has nothing to do with "Uubudu". Uubudu is simply following the "straight path"-Al-Sirat Al-Mustaqueem -see "6151 -153. It is already in our instinct all humans "Fitrata Allah Allati Fatara Al Nas Alaiha"...
Yes brother Uubudu Allah just means Choose the straight path. ( Be a good human/do good works/have good morals...etc).
Anyway,Keep searching brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveli,
Salaam. My point was Islam was hierarchical from the beggining. Having a prophet who leads an army is hierarchical. Having a sovereign which is allowed and has resources to have a harem full of concubines as opposite to serf who only has few goats to feed his family is hierarchical. I believe it is a common misconception among many people who romantisize early Islam as a society which was politically horizontal and free from tyranny, but there are no objective or historical data to back this up. In fact, I was one of them, but it never made sense to for a number of reason
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why would not stronger Empires such as Byzantine conquer them right from the start? Because obviously hierarchical societies are far more organized rather than a community, where decisions are made through democratic means rather than from the top to bottom pyramide of power.
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why did later become an Empire under Abbasids? And if you trace how they established their power even from official hisotrical standpoint you will clearly see how many rulers and tribes were pretty much striving for power from the beggining. Muhammad as a figure was a mediator between those groups but after his death it obviously became a power vacuum.
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why there are no hadiths stating about such a prospherous time? Now I am not saying one should listen to hadiths and accept them as truth, but we are talkign about historically established Islam and it is based on sharia and other political instruments that take their origin from these writings.
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How could Islam be hierarchical when it is prohibited to have any other sovereign except the Creator, the single consciousness we share as a fractal nature, if you may have NO other sovereign you may have no hierarchical structure, to do so would invent a sovereign upon you and break the guide you claim to follow?
The anarchic models worked in other places for longer periods than in the middle east, after hadith from the persian elite was imposed in the middle east, it then took the vatican to exterminate those who continued to practice the original anarchic community islam free of religion. And by examining the old anarchic models they used for centuries we can see how well they worked and how they functioned.
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How could Islam be hierarchical when it is prohibited to have any other sovereign except the Creator, the single consciousness we share as a fractal nature, if you may have NO other sovereign you may have no hierarchical structure, to do so would invent a sovereign upon you and break the guide you claim to follow?
The anarchic models worked in other places for longer periods than in the middle east, after hadith from the persian elite was imposed in the middle east, it then took the vatican to exterminate those who continued to practice the original anarchic community islam free of religion. And by examining the old anarchic models they used for centuries we can see how well they worked and how they functioned.
Because Islam was never true to its original (Qur'anic) ideals. Perhaps it had devotees who stayed Qur'an alone (and were prosecuted) but Islamic societies were always ran by caliphs/monarchs and tribes. I agree that there are no monarchies in the Qur'an, but we either talk two different languages here or you fail to understand my point, which is I am talking about politically established caliphate and that is Islam as we know it. I just don't see how it was anarchic from the start when the bloodshed and power vacuum started with the very first caliph Abu Bakr.
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So now you believe islam never existed?
When the evidence shows it did?
Anarchic community did exist free of all sovereigns and riba based on the Islamic guide outside of the middle east up until around 1000 years ago.
If you want to install a hierarchical system when an anarchic one is in place there are two ways, money or murder, the middle east method was money, once you have your hierarchy installed you can rewrite history easily, and expunge all evidence that contridicts your invented histories.
there was no blood shed at the start, that is the hierarchical fabricated history.
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Abdun Nur u right about rewrite history
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So now you believe islam never existed?
When the evidence shows it did?
Anarchic community did exist free of all sovereigns and riba based on the Islamic guide outside of the middle east up until around 1000 years ago.
If you want to install a hierarchical system when an anarchic one is in place there are two ways, money or murder, the middle east method was money, once you have your hierarchy installed you can rewrite history easily, and expunge all evidence that contridicts your invented histories.
there was no blood shed at the start, that is the hierarchical fabricated history.
As I said there are no logical and historical reasons to back this up. But then again, history (HIS-TORAH) is what we are told and not necessarily true. If there ever was Islamic community as opposite to tyranny, fine, but it has nothing to do with modern Islam and it will never be so, at least in current situation. From reading these forums I came to conclusion that there won't be Quran alone communities either. People have too different views regarding, well, pretty much everything. Yes, we all can be friends, but never a community which is organized under a common political discourse.
And to believe that there was ever Islamic community is to overwrite anything related to Islam, which has no historical basis and evidence either. You need to overwrite anything from revelation to Muhammad's career as a prophet, which was often accompanied by wars and him having slaves and concubines. Regarding the money, golden dinar was established very early as a currency. Having dinar as currency means having either access to the mint OR being under protectorate of the Empire which does 'print coins'. So Persians could as well influence early Islam, and it was not a community.
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I agree it has nothing to do with the invented religion of Islam, I never claimed it did, it is the true Islam, and as i have said previously if the true Islam was presented the majority would reject it, the love of riba and the worship of sovereigns is too great, they do not want truth, they "want" the invented religion.
The middle eastern hostories are impossible to know, however Islam spread across the earth and in other locations it is possible to piece the models back together.
it is extremely unlikely an individual named Muhammed was the author of the Qur'an, this would generate hierarchical thinking, and sovereign worship, as it has done, it is very likely muhammed was a fabrication installed 200 years after, the guide is much more lilkely to have been a collective effort through the mastery and application of the trivium.
Gold, silver etc as a basis to form a medium of exchange is fine, but open to corruption, today it is possible to create the first true medium of exchange, i have developed a full anarchic model based on the ancient examples, this could be coded into a software package, and as a free download people could again create the true Islam, it would once coded and released be impossible for the hierarchical parasites to stop, this would as it grew, render the hierarchies obsolete without bloodshed, violence, or hardship.
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I agree it has nothing to do with the invented religion of Islam, I never claimed it did, it is the true Islam, and as i have said previously if the true Islam was presented the majority would reject it, the love of riba and the worship of sovereigns is too great, they do not want truth, they "want" the invented religion.
The middle eastern hostories are impossible to know, however Islam spread across the earth and in other locations it is possible to piece the models back together.
it is extremely unlikely an individual named Muhammed was the author of the Qur'an, this would generate hierarchical thinking, and sovereign worship, as it has done, it is very likely muhammed was a fabrication installed 200 years after, the guide is much more lilkely to have been a collective effort through the mastery and application of the trivium.
Gold, silver etc as a basis to form a medium of exchange is fine, but open to corruption, today it is possible to create the first true medium of exchange, i have developed a full anarchic model based on the ancient examples, this could be coded into a software package, and as a free download people could again create the true Islam, it would once coded and released be impossible for the hierarchical parasites to stop, this would as it grew, render the hierarchies obsolete without bloodshed, violence, or hardship.
Isn't usury (interest rate and loans) prohibited in Islam? Or what do you mean by 'riba'?
I am an economist so I have little knowledge in how cryptocurrencies work. I think unless they get super attention as bitcoin they are useless, the only power currency has is if people use it for exchange. But once Qur'an alone community establishes a social enterprise where all workers have % of ownership I am ready to move and devote myself to the greater good ) ;D
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Piece Abdun Nur.
If you have done this,quote
i have developed a full anarchic model based on the ancient examples, this could be coded into a software package, and as a free download people could again create the true Islam, it would once coded and released be impossible for the hierarchical parasites to stop, this would as it grew, render the hierarchies obsolete without bloodshed, violence, or hardship.
Then roll with it. Set it in motion and see what happens. Or are you waiting for completion of the task?
Or are there barriers/complications?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveil,
The usurious concept of money making money is ingrained against reason, yet dominates, money could be usuriously ?risked? to ?make? money on stocks with no guarantee of gain, therefore the logic goes, a potential loss is suffered by lending it.
This logic applies within a usury system, the monopoly on money creates scarcity, this means one must lose for another to gain, and all models of usury steal an increase from the extortion of money monopoly, through all usury forms, ownership, taxation, profit, interest, and rental.
Fiat devalues as time passes due to the usurious debt based Ponzi economic model of modern banking, therefore to lend your money incurs an increasing loss as time passes.
All fiat currencies devalue as the doubling of debt dilutes their value through the expansion of the debt.
The loss of value would however happen even if you held onto your money, as fiat endlessly devalues. $100 in the year 1906 is worth in buying power $2,528.09 in 2016.
?Interest Is Theft, Rent Robbery, And Profit Only Another Name For Plunder.? Ezra Heywood
Usury is the ultimate centralisation of power, hierarchy is birthed its conjoined twin. For the usurious, usury is perceived as free money, extracted extortionately; for the extorted victim they perceive no alternative.
?Usury is a certain benefit which is received for the use of the thing lent beyond the return in full of the thing lent, and is not lawful.? Definition Black?s Law Dictionary.
Would you like to know - "The Difference Between Trade and Usury"?
Peace Good logic,
I have tried, however the level of interest even to understand the model is lacking, the majority are not interested in escaping the slavery and exploitation of their masters, I travelled to the uk and gave a full day seminar on the model, but got no audience, without interest islam will remain dead.
