If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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Even now many Muslims talk about uniting all muslim nations but it's just not happening because all of its branches or mashabs and even separate political groups pursue their own interests. At first Erdogan of Turkey (whom many muslims believe to be pro-Islam and pro-caliphate/Osman Empire and all this silly stuff they believe due to their patriotism) allowed ISIS soldiers to heal in the private hospitals in Turkey, but few months later they ceased any alliance and started a feud. Politics. They don't care about Palestinians, only care about themselves and their interests.
And I have no logical or historical objections, which would identify early Islam to be any different.
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Peace Makaveli,
politics is the expression of authoritative policy, for that to exist you need a hierarchical structure to impose the authority of the sovereign, therefore in an anarchic community model politics does not exist, and has no need to.
Muslims do not grasp the anarchic at all, they are stuck in the hierarchical mindset of the psychopaths, where sovereigns extort, riba is the foundation, and murder acceptable if you wear a costume of the owners.
There are several forms of the expression of riba, interest on debt is one expression, but ownership, taxation, profit and rental are other expressions, the alternatives in the anarchic model are far far better.
Only in an hierarchical system is murder in costume acceptable, otherwise to murder is to murder, anachically you would be always accountable for a murder, even with the sound of drums and the pay packet of your master rewarding your infliction of horror, as we are a single soul expressed fractually to murder is a great wrong against the soul and will destroy its foundation.
A State is a hierarchical expression of ownership, and completely un-Islamic, the original model was allodial not ownership, a State is a religious delusion not a true objective of Islam. The reality that ownership is a form of riba and a state is always a hierarchical sovereign based model, makes it against islam.
ISIS is a creation of state hierarchies of Israel and its allies, America, UK, France, Saudi royals, a collection of recruited mercenaries armed and supplied by those sources.
Anarchic community in its true form has no power to be gained or held, without riba there is no foundation for any hierarchy.
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Peace Rekkd.
I believe you are an honest person.You say ,quote
Now back to the topic. The problem I find here is people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran to fit with modern society AND to alter the crazy verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.My similar statement would be
Now back to the topic. The problem I find is some people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran if you follow most interpretations of Qoran to fit with modern society BUT we need to challenge the crazy interpretations of verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.like
Uubudu does not mean worship,Rituals/seeking GOD s help has nothing to do with "Uubudu". Uubudu is simply following the "straight path"-Al-Sirat Al-Mustaqueem -see "6151 -153. It is already in our instinct all humans "Fitrata Allah Allati Fatara Al Nas Alaiha"...
Yes brother Uubudu Allah just means Choose the straight path. ( Be a good human/do good works/have good morals...etc).
Anyway,Keep searching brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveli,
Salaam. My point was Islam was hierarchical from the beggining. Having a prophet who leads an army is hierarchical. Having a sovereign which is allowed and has resources to have a harem full of concubines as opposite to serf who only has few goats to feed his family is hierarchical. I believe it is a common misconception among many people who romantisize early Islam as a society which was politically horizontal and free from tyranny, but there are no objective or historical data to back this up. In fact, I was one of them, but it never made sense to for a number of reason
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why would not stronger Empires such as Byzantine conquer them right from the start? Because obviously hierarchical societies are far more organized rather than a community, where decisions are made through democratic means rather than from the top to bottom pyramide of power.
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why did later become an Empire under Abbasids? And if you trace how they established their power even from official hisotrical standpoint you will clearly see how many rulers and tribes were pretty much striving for power from the beggining. Muhammad as a figure was a mediator between those groups but after his death it obviously became a power vacuum.
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If an early Islam was a community and not a typical monarchy or tribalism, why there are no hadiths stating about such a prospherous time? Now I am not saying one should listen to hadiths and accept them as truth, but we are talkign about historically established Islam and it is based on sharia and other political instruments that take their origin from these writings.
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How could Islam be hierarchical when it is prohibited to have any other sovereign except the Creator, the single consciousness we share as a fractal nature, if you may have NO other sovereign you may have no hierarchical structure, to do so would invent a sovereign upon you and break the guide you claim to follow?
The anarchic models worked in other places for longer periods than in the middle east, after hadith from the persian elite was imposed in the middle east, it then took the vatican to exterminate those who continued to practice the original anarchic community islam free of religion. And by examining the old anarchic models they used for centuries we can see how well they worked and how they functioned.
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How could Islam be hierarchical when it is prohibited to have any other sovereign except the Creator, the single consciousness we share as a fractal nature, if you may have NO other sovereign you may have no hierarchical structure, to do so would invent a sovereign upon you and break the guide you claim to follow?
The anarchic models worked in other places for longer periods than in the middle east, after hadith from the persian elite was imposed in the middle east, it then took the vatican to exterminate those who continued to practice the original anarchic community islam free of religion. And by examining the old anarchic models they used for centuries we can see how well they worked and how they functioned.
Because Islam was never true to its original (Qur'anic) ideals. Perhaps it had devotees who stayed Qur'an alone (and were prosecuted) but Islamic societies were always ran by caliphs/monarchs and tribes. I agree that there are no monarchies in the Qur'an, but we either talk two different languages here or you fail to understand my point, which is I am talking about politically established caliphate and that is Islam as we know it. I just don't see how it was anarchic from the start when the bloodshed and power vacuum started with the very first caliph Abu Bakr.
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So now you believe islam never existed?
When the evidence shows it did?
Anarchic community did exist free of all sovereigns and riba based on the Islamic guide outside of the middle east up until around 1000 years ago.
If you want to install a hierarchical system when an anarchic one is in place there are two ways, money or murder, the middle east method was money, once you have your hierarchy installed you can rewrite history easily, and expunge all evidence that contridicts your invented histories.
there was no blood shed at the start, that is the hierarchical fabricated history.
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Abdun Nur u right about rewrite history
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So now you believe islam never existed?
When the evidence shows it did?
Anarchic community did exist free of all sovereigns and riba based on the Islamic guide outside of the middle east up until around 1000 years ago.
If you want to install a hierarchical system when an anarchic one is in place there are two ways, money or murder, the middle east method was money, once you have your hierarchy installed you can rewrite history easily, and expunge all evidence that contridicts your invented histories.
there was no blood shed at the start, that is the hierarchical fabricated history.
As I said there are no logical and historical reasons to back this up. But then again, history (HIS-TORAH) is what we are told and not necessarily true. If there ever was Islamic community as opposite to tyranny, fine, but it has nothing to do with modern Islam and it will never be so, at least in current situation. From reading these forums I came to conclusion that there won't be Quran alone communities either. People have too different views regarding, well, pretty much everything. Yes, we all can be friends, but never a community which is organized under a common political discourse.
And to believe that there was ever Islamic community is to overwrite anything related to Islam, which has no historical basis and evidence either. You need to overwrite anything from revelation to Muhammad's career as a prophet, which was often accompanied by wars and him having slaves and concubines. Regarding the money, golden dinar was established very early as a currency. Having dinar as currency means having either access to the mint OR being under protectorate of the Empire which does 'print coins'. So Persians could as well influence early Islam, and it was not a community.
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I agree it has nothing to do with the invented religion of Islam, I never claimed it did, it is the true Islam, and as i have said previously if the true Islam was presented the majority would reject it, the love of riba and the worship of sovereigns is too great, they do not want truth, they "want" the invented religion.
The middle eastern hostories are impossible to know, however Islam spread across the earth and in other locations it is possible to piece the models back together.
it is extremely unlikely an individual named Muhammed was the author of the Qur'an, this would generate hierarchical thinking, and sovereign worship, as it has done, it is very likely muhammed was a fabrication installed 200 years after, the guide is much more lilkely to have been a collective effort through the mastery and application of the trivium.
Gold, silver etc as a basis to form a medium of exchange is fine, but open to corruption, today it is possible to create the first true medium of exchange, i have developed a full anarchic model based on the ancient examples, this could be coded into a software package, and as a free download people could again create the true Islam, it would once coded and released be impossible for the hierarchical parasites to stop, this would as it grew, render the hierarchies obsolete without bloodshed, violence, or hardship.
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I agree it has nothing to do with the invented religion of Islam, I never claimed it did, it is the true Islam, and as i have said previously if the true Islam was presented the majority would reject it, the love of riba and the worship of sovereigns is too great, they do not want truth, they "want" the invented religion.
The middle eastern hostories are impossible to know, however Islam spread across the earth and in other locations it is possible to piece the models back together.
it is extremely unlikely an individual named Muhammed was the author of the Qur'an, this would generate hierarchical thinking, and sovereign worship, as it has done, it is very likely muhammed was a fabrication installed 200 years after, the guide is much more lilkely to have been a collective effort through the mastery and application of the trivium.
Gold, silver etc as a basis to form a medium of exchange is fine, but open to corruption, today it is possible to create the first true medium of exchange, i have developed a full anarchic model based on the ancient examples, this could be coded into a software package, and as a free download people could again create the true Islam, it would once coded and released be impossible for the hierarchical parasites to stop, this would as it grew, render the hierarchies obsolete without bloodshed, violence, or hardship.
Isn't usury (interest rate and loans) prohibited in Islam? Or what do you mean by 'riba'?
I am an economist so I have little knowledge in how cryptocurrencies work. I think unless they get super attention as bitcoin they are useless, the only power currency has is if people use it for exchange. But once Qur'an alone community establishes a social enterprise where all workers have % of ownership I am ready to move and devote myself to the greater good ) ;D
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Piece Abdun Nur.
If you have done this,quote
i have developed a full anarchic model based on the ancient examples, this could be coded into a software package, and as a free download people could again create the true Islam, it would once coded and released be impossible for the hierarchical parasites to stop, this would as it grew, render the hierarchies obsolete without bloodshed, violence, or hardship.
Then roll with it. Set it in motion and see what happens. Or are you waiting for completion of the task?
Or are there barriers/complications?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveil,
The usurious concept of money making money is ingrained against reason, yet dominates, money could be usuriously ?risked? to ?make? money on stocks with no guarantee of gain, therefore the logic goes, a potential loss is suffered by lending it.
This logic applies within a usury system, the monopoly on money creates scarcity, this means one must lose for another to gain, and all models of usury steal an increase from the extortion of money monopoly, through all usury forms, ownership, taxation, profit, interest, and rental.
Fiat devalues as time passes due to the usurious debt based Ponzi economic model of modern banking, therefore to lend your money incurs an increasing loss as time passes.
All fiat currencies devalue as the doubling of debt dilutes their value through the expansion of the debt.
The loss of value would however happen even if you held onto your money, as fiat endlessly devalues. $100 in the year 1906 is worth in buying power $2,528.09 in 2016.
?Interest Is Theft, Rent Robbery, And Profit Only Another Name For Plunder.? Ezra Heywood
Usury is the ultimate centralisation of power, hierarchy is birthed its conjoined twin. For the usurious, usury is perceived as free money, extracted extortionately; for the extorted victim they perceive no alternative.
?Usury is a certain benefit which is received for the use of the thing lent beyond the return in full of the thing lent, and is not lawful.? Definition Black?s Law Dictionary.
Would you like to know - "The Difference Between Trade and Usury"?
Peace Good logic,
I have tried, however the level of interest even to understand the model is lacking, the majority are not interested in escaping the slavery and exploitation of their masters, I travelled to the uk and gave a full day seminar on the model, but got no audience, without interest islam will remain dead.
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The usurious concept of money making money is ingrained against reason, yet dominates, money could be usuriously risked to make money on stocks with no guarantee of gain, therefore the logic goes, a potential loss is suffered by lending it.
As far as I know many muslim are very careful of how they go about money, such as they refuse to run non-halal businesses (alcohol related etc.) or play forex. But I agree there are many muslims and organizations including so-called Islamic banks which invest into projects, but again there is no interest involved and the monetary outcome is always based on adequte measures invested, i.e. how much force or finances is actually invested in the project. Or at least they like to say so. There are those who buyout entertainment businesses and make them 'halal' such as stop selling alcohol there but in reality these are just as bad, in my opinion. Nothing halal in the hotels or tourist stuff.
Regarding your idea, you will be assassinated sooner or later by the elite or demonized as a pyramide scheme, in case your stuff works. But then again, I am not an economist, I do believe in community owned enterprises and some of them work, including in the U.S. and Spain. Each worker is also a part of the enterprise and gets return based on the actual financial outcome of the enterprise and not based on his/her wage. Everybody is equal. Every votes and decision matters. This works and this I believe every community which is united with common agenda should start with. Monetary revolution is just too much of a concept let alone a project, it is better to start with community owned enterprises, something which IS real and may work out. In fact there are only several major problems, which stop people from doing more of those, these are laziness, financial instability (which forces people to work for wages) and lack of confidence.
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And there lies the problem. People will gladly try new ideas from well known companies/leaders/brands...
But ordinary people ,with the best ideas ,are not trusted or given any chance/interest.One has got to keep setting the alarm, waking the people up is a hard task.
By the way,there are some communities who are trying to live "moneyless" all together. The systems are making their life hell and making them dependent on them/like taxing them/making them integrate the learning of their children etc... In other words the world s system or the "leach" will get hold of you somehow!!!
You are right you need the "masses" behind you.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Anarchic community is not a moneyless model, it requires a medium of exchange, just not a usurious one, the medium of exchange is very important, it generates abundance, it is resource scarcity that presently holds the majority in poverty.
The problem the elite would have with my model would be it has no hierarchy to dominate, and no head to cut off, if i was murdered it would have aero effect on the model, once it was released nothing would stop it, it has no hierarchy need to control it, it is polycentric.
The model removes taxation, ownership, rental, employers and employees, the legal system, government, middle men, banks, money, and replaces all these things with anarchic alternatives.
The model generates abundance for all users, it gives protection and relief for wrongs, it removes resource monopoly, it removes constructed legal fictions which are used presently to avoid accountability.
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Anarchic community is not a moneyless model, it requires a medium of exchange, just not a usurious one, the medium of exchange is very important, it generates abundance, it is resource scarcity that presently holds the majority in poverty.
Say I have a cow a you are running metal work. You need milk, but I don't need nails or any other kind of metal work. How can we go about this situation without having middle men in between our exchange?
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You need a middle man to trade?
No.
With the software platform you freely advertise your goods and trade them, either for the medium of exchange or other goods or services, their is no middle man to take a cut, a middle man is for example a car dealer who sells new cars, he is the middle man and takes plenty of "profit", profit is the interest demand for the use of money beyond the cost of the trade, meaning after the cost of production wages for the labour and transport you add interest on the money you have invested, in the anarchic the medium of exchange invested is often a shared burden and there is no need of profit, as there are no employees to ride.
Another example of a middle man, is a tax man, he stands between a trade and demands a cut for nothing at the point of a gun or club.