If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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Peace Makaveli,
people are lazy, selfish, and greedy, therefore if they see a software platform that allows them to gain huge advantages, that pander to their greedy, and are easy to learn for selfish advantage, then they will from the example of others use that platform also.
You have huge misconceptions. Why do you think people are like that in the first place and why do you think it was THIS system which was established in the first place and not "Heaven on Earth"? Because usury, taxation, protection rackets and other stuff is just a primitive economic form of our instincts, namely instinct of domination and pack instincts. The only way to 'escape' it is to become personally righteous, because you can't lead people without them going astray or becoming dogmatists, in which case it becomes a regular religious tyranny. You seem to critisize faith, but that is exactly what you are doing, being a dogmatic and saying people are lazy because they fail to believe in the anarchic code system.
As i said previously these models functioned in a more basic nature for centuries in beautiful harmony, that reality is hidden, as if people watched a TV show that presented the true anarchic community model it would make people realise what a load of complete shit the hierarchical systems are, all of them, it matters little which form, the very worst form of hierarchy is communism for example. Communism is the extreme of hierarchy, the wet dream of the owners.
What is your source that refer to the system in the history of mankind which worked under these principles?
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Riba only exists because there is no alternative, the alternative is much better, it is easier, in return, in access, in application, in all elements it is easier, that gives selfish advantage.
I know people love riba because they think it is good to gain without effort, they are lazy, and they feel money should generate money, when in reality money only gains through someone?s labours ultimately, and if your not investing the labour you are robbing the labours of others.
History is corrupted, the powers that be do not want you to know real history, the example I have based the model of anarchy on was the model that existed in Albien (not Albion) before the genocide inflicted by the Vatican and their imposing of the hierarchical slavery on the survivors.
As for misconception you argue against a system you know little about, to what end?
I do not really criticize faith I expose it for exactly what it is, religions are blood baths of horrors historically, why anyone in their right mind would want to join one is a baffling idea, it takes little effort to expose the histories and the nature of these religions, which are universally based on faith, have faith in the god in the sky, in the hierarchy of the religion, in the dogma of the book, whatever it is the devotees are required to do, they have faith as even a cursory investigation using reason exposes all as lies, so the criticism as you state, is well deserved.
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Riba only exists because there is no alternative, the alternative is much better, it is easier, in return, in access, in application, in all elements it is easier, that gives selfish advantage.
That's dogma and nothing to do with reason. There were countless of attempts to overthrow previous regimes in history (French and October revolutions plus countless of serf uprising in the past are just some of examples), yet they all ended up with another sort of tyranny. In the given age we experience the overflow of information and there are thousands of theoretical alternatives, yet none work. Again, why are people imprisoned by unfairness of the wordly? To change something you need to look deeper, as to what causes it, fundamentals, foundation of the system, and that is our human nature, which besides mind is not so far away from animals.
I know people love riba because they think it is good to gain without effort, they are lazy, and they feel money should generate money, when in reality money only gains through someones labours ultimately, and if your not investing the labour you are robbing the labours of others.
If they love riba (and I agree, many do), will you prohibit it once your system becomes popular or you will let others to decide which model to use?
History is corrupted, the powers that be do not want you to know real history, the example I have based the model of anarchy on was the model that existed in Albien (not Albion) before the genocide inflicted by the Vatican and their imposing of the hierarchical slavery on the survivors.
What makes you believe it worked the way as you percieve, if that is beyond your romantization? There probably were months (not even years) of socialistic periods in every culture, including Christianity and post-october revolution in 1918. But it did not last for long, until some empire or a local feudal lord wouldn't extort these communities, or bad fruits inside the communities wouldn't ruin it from the inside.
Celtic and Danish (Scandinavian) histories are full of endless wars.
As for misconception you argue against a system you know little about, to what end?
I know enough to make conclusions before you get tired of concinving me of your idea. There are countless of analogues, each promising just society, yet I am not an idealist. I prefer reason and my own experience. Everything I said so far was based on reason and funamental logic (logic about how world works fundamentally and why people and society is like that and not any other way). If you want to preach, go ahead, you will end up preaching. I'd rather strive to become a righteous person without exploiting anybody, or work on the worker's owned enterprise, which, unlike your concept, is a logical, working and, what is more important, possible solution for contemporary communities.
I do not really criticize faith I expose it for exactly what it is...
You cannot even outline your concept in a few logical sentences without trying to convince me that it takes EDUCATION. If it is education, nobody in the right mind will invest in it, and not because people are lazy, or rather not only because people are lazy. Because everyone needs to provide food on the table and they have no resources to educate themselves into the new economic concept and later invest into it so as to make it work. People have to work or they will die out of hunger. Not to mention the fact that most of these are utopian anyways. They concentrate only on exchange, trade and production for the most time, but they do not overwrite whole economy.
Just like flat earthers who like to speak about conspiracies of austranauts and physics, yet they are not trying to overwrite physics and create their own scientific concepts.
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I am not talking about a revolution, which is the revolving of one hierarchical mafia system to another, where often huge numbers are murdered. Revolutions are worthless, I do not want to establsih any revolution, if you read my posts i want to provide a free choice, they may keep their hierarchy and riba if they want, but if they want to use the models they may.
Riba would reduce in relation to the rise of the alternative, that is not important, unless you own a bank or government, as for those who love riba it is not my concern if they find it increasing difficult to practice it.
You claim I am stating dogma without understanding the system i am proposing.
The allodial system, the terrente system, the polycentic structure are not romance, they are systems that existed in the past, what is romanitic about that?
I know historicall that from at least 758 until 1066 these models were in place and the nature of these models is self policing for want of a better word, they had very little conflict internally only external attacks by hierarchical elites and their brainless slaves.
Most history before the 13th century is very dubious, and has been heavily rewritten in many cases
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History is rewritten even now with the media changing their articles and web archives often removing pages. Not to mention previous century, so much information yet way more disinformation.
I can't understand your theory (because it is a theory and not a system in itself) if all I hear is you going around the circles without saying anything specific. I even tried to present some examples regarding monetary system, welfare and non-monetary exchange, yet I did not see you explain any of it from methodological point of view, except of saying that your 'system' provides answers for the new understanding of medicine, economy and everything else what matters. It does not matter in the end. If it works the way you describe, or at least close to this point, that will obviously be great and I will support it. But there are many theories out there, hundreds and the world is still ran by fundamental injustice. Yet personal development as a righteous person can be done by anyone. It won't change the world but it is the change in you that matters.
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I can post the information but it is not a quick read, these are models of community alien to present understanding, people are invested in the riba concepts like ownership, rental, taxation, interest, and profit, so much so, even to point out you have a model that removes these riba models, makes them react defensively, and to reject the whole idea out of hand, so they never have the opportunity to understand them.
Each model is both explained in its original ancient form and how it could be applied equally well in a modern software system, I also explain the structure of the software system, I had around 700 slides in my seminar lecture, this is a complete alternative model, across all aspects of community.
So to suggest it could be explained in 2 paragraphs it impossible.
I had a website with it on, but it was attacked to the point of destruction, and is offline, I have tried to find someone to attempt to fix it, but for 6 months have failed.
If you understood the proposed software system you would I'm certain see the advantages, and genius of it, anyway not to worry, it is easy to reject and to understand takes effort, few are willing to make effort.
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I can post the information but it is not a quick read, these are models of community alien to present understanding, people are invested in the riba concepts like ownership, rental, taxation, interest, and profit, so much so, even to point out you have a model that removes these riba models, makes them react defensively, and to reject the whole idea out of hand, so they never have the opportunity to understand them.
Each model is both explained in its original ancient form and how it could be applied equally well in a modern software system, I also explain the structure of the software system, I had around 700 slides in my seminar lecture, this is a complete alternative model, across all aspects of community.
So to suggest it could be explained in 2 paragraphs it impossible.
I had a website with it on, but it was attacked to the point of destruction, and is offline, I have tried to find someone to attempt to fix it, but for 6 months have failed.
If you understood the proposed software system you would I'm certain see the advantages, and genius of it, anyway not to worry, it is easy to reject and to understand takes effort, few are willing to make effort.
No backup copy of the website? Anyways, I suggest you start a thread with your proposal and see where it goes. It will be productive to see how people will react to it. One thing I know for sure is that a righteous person does not need an excess, and that is also the part of the Qur'anic teaching. So striving for profit more than what is needed for one to survide and feed his/her family and perhaps help those who need help is unnecessary and even destructive. But then again, how would even a small enteprise go without profit with all the rackets that the government and private sector surrounds it with, namaly taxation?
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you need money to draw tax, and money is only a trade not in anyway required in the model, it would begin as of value and the larger the anarchic was adopted by the masses the weaker money would trade.
I will begin a thread
Profit is the amount added after all costs, remove the money monopoly and a cost to money in usury and the interest of profit is removed, without a master and slave employment model the labours are drawn 100% to the labourer from the bonded cooperative, you receive proportionately for your time invested.
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is servantofthelight.com your website ? What kind of attack destroyed your website ?
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It was not the servantofthlight site they attacked but my new labourcoin.com site, both sites are on the same server and linked if one goes down they both do, it began with 10's of thousands of messages on the forum, i shut it down, then i got thousands of contact messages, the objective was to steal my bandwidth which they did in 2 or 3 days of the month so the rest of the month the sites were down, then both sites stopped working, i tried to find someone to fix it but had no luck in 6 months.
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this is a snapshot of your website
http//web.archive.org/web/20170201094640/http//www.labourcoin.com80/?
If that can help you in retrieving whatever you want to retrieve.
further info https//superuser.com/questions/828907/how-to-download-a-website-from-the-archive-org-wayback-machinehope this helps.
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A commentary
"The angels understood the ultimate behavior of the said vicegerent from the words, ?in the earth?.
A vicegerent appointed in the earth would certainly be created from material components; he would necessarily be bestowed with two basic traits of desire and anger; the earth is a place of unceasing struggle and constant confrontation; its resources are limited, its opportunities finite; but the proposed vicegerent's desire would be unlimited, infinite. The condition of the earth and earthly things was hardly reassur?ing.
Its creatures were subjected to ever-continuing deterioration and disintegration; its good was always turning into bad; it was a place where an individual could not live without a group having similar characteristics and traits. Keeping all this in view, the angels at once understood that what Allah intended to create was not only an individual, but a species.
The members of that species would have to live together, cooperating with one another; that is to say, they would have to establish a society, a social order. And with a venture like this, they were bound to cause mischief and to shed blood.
On the other hand, they knew that vicegerency - setting one thing in place of another - was unthinkable unless the vicegerent were a true copy of his predecessor in all the characteristics, traits and intrinsic abilities.
The proposed earthly creature was to be made vicegerent of Allah in the earth. Allah has got for Himself the best names, the sublime attributes; His mercy and power are beyond the comprehension of His creatures; He, in His person, is untouched by any defect; and, in his actions, is free from all kinds of evil and disorder.
How could an earthly vicegerent, with all his defects and deficiencies, represent the majesty and splendor of Allah in the earth? Well, could a lowly creature of earth be a mirror of divine beauty and sublimity?"
Honestly I like your explanation, took me a while to reply because I haven't looked at it that way before.
What caught my interest is the last question. Are you saying that we can become like God/Allah?
Actually your explanation is based on alot of assumptions but I would like your reply first so I can continue to talk just to get a clear picture of your writing.
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Honestly I like your explanation, took me a while to reply because I haven't looked at it that way before.
What caught my interest is the last question. Are you saying that we can become like God/Allah?
Actually your explanation is based on alot of assumptions but I would like your reply first so I can continue to talk just to get a clear picture of your writing.
The "A commentary" is from https//www.al-islam.org/es/node/19106
Wakas mentioned a request for you about your objections, will you go through with it? God willing.
Peace. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif -
Honestly I like your explanation, took me a while to reply because I haven't looked at it that way before.
What caught my interest is the last question. Are you saying that we can become like God/Allah?
Actually your explanation is based on alot of assumptions but I would like your reply first so I can continue to talk just to get a clear picture of your writing.
I didn't write that, that's why I added quotation marks lol. You can read all of it here https//www.al-islam.org/al-mizan-exegesis-quran-vol-1-allamah-tabatabai/suratul-baqarah-verses-30-33
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The "A commentary" is from https//www.al-islam.org/es/node/19106
Wakas mentioned a request for you about your objections, will you go through with it? God willing.
Peace. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gifIt's really useless. He's not asking to listen to me but to try to counter everything I write.
Most of us at some point truly believed in the old stories of Mohamed and the Hadith books, most probably most of us were willing to die believing in it. Now that we've opened our eyes a little bit we have abandoned Hadith books, I don't think any of us feel like we could ever go back believing in them just like how I currently feel like I can never go back to believing in the current interpretations of the Quran.
The difference here is, it's easy to abandon hadith books. The excuse is that they're written by men and men make mistakes np. But when the Quran is thought to be the word of God, no one wants to cross that red line and we all fall back in fear. We're stuck in a loophole of circular reasoning to justify whatever we find, change the meanings of some words to justify the message, twist and adjust to make it fit.
So it's really a waste of time as they wont listen.
Im not the best at expressing my opinion and I'm not the greatest writer but many have come here with much superior writing skills to send the message that it all doesn't add up. Most have given up and left or come in from time to time.. It's like standing in the middle of mecca trying to convince people that Hadith books are made up. It's a waste of energy and honestly I'm trying to find the truth not save the world.
I know I'm moving in the right direction, if anyone is willing to find the real truth I will gladly share everything I know and believe till now.
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I didn't write that, that's why I added quotation marks lol. You can read all of it here https//www.al-islam.org/al-mizan-exegesis-quran-vol-1-allamah-tabatabai/suratul-baqarah-verses-30-33
I kinda thought you might have not written it but was just making sure. Anyways thanks.
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It's really useless. He's not asking to listen to me but to try to counter everything I write.
Rekkd,
If you are genuine and logical (as you claim), make your own thread with the 5 strongest objections to The Quran that you can possibly fathom. Not any old 5, the strongest possible you can come up with after all your research/thinking.I've been a forum member for a while and my experience of people similar to yourself is the following
- they have no clue what evidence/answer they are looking for, hence will not recognise it even if its staring them in the face
- are not actually genuinely seeking the truth, and only to validate their pre-existing beliefs (or lack thereof)
- still look at Quran through the lens of tradition hence are blinded to what it's saying
- remain silent when challenged/questioned
I may be wrong of course.
Looks like I was right after all.
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If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
If one rejects the Hadith (ie. Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud), the Tafsir (ie. Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas, al-Jalalayn, Maududi), and the History (ie. al-Tabari, Ibn Sa'd, al-Waqidi, Ibn Ishaq), then the entire historical context of the Qur'an, along with any proof of Muhammad's existence, is lost.
You get a nameless, unhistorical book in which you believe that it is words from God because it says so, how silly dont you think?
I would like a sectarian scholar to answer the following
How do we know hadiths are talking about the Quran we study and follow?
How do those men show the Quran is we have today is the right Quran? Do they have the accounting done?
Would you have believed in Quran just by hearing it came from God and Muhammad if you were a pagan back then?
If Quran was transmitted through chains of narrators, why is it not graded like hadiths?
Why hadiths don't rhyme like the Book?
Why do you think God needed chains of narrators for only Quran and not Injeel and Torah?
Why is it that you can't figure out on your own that it is God's revelation?
Do you think you should even declare that you believe in God when it is too clear that you never studied and followed his guidance?
Lastly, please please, explain the meaning of Book found in the following verses and who gave you people the authority to change it
http//islamawakened.com/quran/roots/files/screen-shot-2013-09-10-at-7.12.41-pm.jpg
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I would like a sectarian scholar to answer the following
Peace, only one question for hearsay followers; name one gossip they're willing to wager their soul it is 100% true?
https//s26.postimg.org/yluefqsh5/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch29v61-69.jpg
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Looks like I was right after all.
Ok I'll get right to it even tho I see no point in explaining my point of view.
Now I will give you 5 reasons why I believe the current interpretations and the way we understand the Arabic language is false. Mainly my problem is with the core message of the Quran and the concept of God, I will not get into the rules/laws because how we see them can be different from one person to the next. For example The inheritance, Sunni Muslims claim that it's 100% fair, as the son/uncle/grandfather are responsible (also financially) for the daughter after her father dies. However, many members here would disagree due to unfairness, control of women, etc... Another example is the Hijab or the veil how it's viewed by many Sunni Muslims and how it's viewed by western community and homosexuality, etc... Anyways lets get to it..
1- The reason for creation. Now the Quran claims to be fully detaield/complete (however you want to translate it) but many key and critical points and answers are missing. Now not long ago I asked on this forum "Why were we created" and I received answers mainly one of the three (with Quran references) To worship or to serve or to do good or all three. Let's examine them one by one according to the Quran
To Worship, now I have a problem with this because why would God want to be worshipped? MOF brought up a very important point here on the forum and many have failed to listen, that we humans have created an image of God similar to a Human ruler or a person in power with wordly desires. Every King/Queen loves to be worshiped in some form or another, it's a desire to feel dominant over the rest, greed for power and control. If we think about it logically if God is truly what he claims in the Quran, why would he want humans to praise him night and day? why perform rituals? if not rituals why even care if they acknowledge him or not? God is the ALMIGHTY and we are nothing, weak human with no power. Allah in the Quran is a Jealous God just like in the Torah, a trait that shows weakness and no self control. How can God be such?! Why does God even care if we believe in other Gods or follow other religions?....
To Serve, Now God in the Quran mentions several times that he is not in need of anything or anyone. Whatever he wants, he just wills and it happens. Then why did you create billions of humans with no power whatsoever and ask them to serve you? How can we even serve you? why would God even care? There is nothing in this physical world that we can do that will ever serve God, the only way to serve him is spiritually. How? I'm not sure yet, but still according to the Quran God does not even need that!
To do Good, now in the Quran the world will come to an end and we live in a world where we will all eventually die, right? Lets say I do good by helping the poor eventually they will die and all my effort and their suffering will come to a halt. It's all meaningless! Just like doing good in the world by developing it or creating new projects to help mankind, eventually this world will be destroyed...and all our efforts will be meaningless. SO Why does Allah want us to do good? and what is good? because again it's very subjective. I eat meat and I love it! a vegan thinks I'm a one of the reasons animals are murdered on a daily basis. People having multiple sex partners, others might find it bad, etc.. you will have a tonne of examples really
So to be honest, no matter how hard you look at the Quran I GUARANTEE! that you will not find an answer without ONE WAY of circular reasoning to justify it. I'm willing to bet my whole damn money, life, everything on it!
2- Example of Attributes of God Quran claims God is the most merciful, now any person with an open eye will truly see that it's not true. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hate God or I think he's evil, I just think he has no emotions and he only cares about results, but that's another topic. Now over and over again the Quran claims God will punish, burn, destroy and torture those who do not believe in him, those who go against the Quran! Yet lets say a man lived 80 years, how is it fair for him to be punished for all eternity for not believing in God or even doing evil for a period that is negligible compared to infinity.
This is also a problem as the Quran claims God is in control of everything, another contradiction! If God is in control of everything then we cannot have free will, it just doesn't make sense. Thus how can God punish us when he has total control over us?! But if God has no control over us then God is not in control of everything! its just very simple but people are too stupid and afraid to claim that God is not in control of everything.
God is all knowing HOW!!!!!?? THEN WHY THE F ARE WE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! it's very stupid to test something when you already know the end result, it's even dumber when you create something to test it and say you know everything about it. Why test it then? does this even make any sense?! I've had a forum member here post some garbage about us living in this world to appreciate other things lol but still God could create us with the gift to appreciate everything no matter what! Believe me Wakas no matter how much you think about it, you will always go back to circular reasoning to justify this!
3- God used a language that is specific to a certain area AND words have different meanings. In our world the only language that can never be played with or twisted is math, like Edip always said "It's the universal language" and I totally agree with him. Yet God, according to the Quran used a language where almost every word can be used to have several meanings, this opens up a door to corruption, misinterpretation and misinformation. Now you have Quranists trying as hard as possible to look for the meaning of the word that will justify their stance just like Shia and Sunni Muslims. Why not make a language that's more like math to explain to the humans God's message! why did you prefer to use a language that is only known to a limited number of people. IF GOD WOULD HAVE USED MATH OR SOMETHING SIMILAR then the whole world would be able to understand the TRUE MESSAGE! a person in china not knowing Arabic will have to rely on interpretations and translations of others, it's truly unfair. Your reply might be "well the Quran claims to have sent messengers to all communities and tribes", however, every damn prophet mentioned in the Quran was pretty much only around the middle east. I didn't see a mention of any Chinese prophet, or a red indian prophet or a latino prophet?!
Now the road to salvation is also to believe in God, his messenger, the Quran, his angels and judgement day! meaning only people that read the Quran and believe in according to the interpretation of someone else or their if they've put an effort would enter heaven and live in the middle east. How about the rest? the ones that have not been introduced to the Quran, the ones that have not read the message? what about them?
This is tiring lol. Anyways honestly I've just wrote 3 points that came to my mind and in no particular order of importance. I will continue later at night or tomorrow when I have more time
