question about dress code

Mazhar

if you take any verse where the word ZEENATAN is mentioned, it's always about wealth, goods, , wealth and goods are obvious, possessions of value, like money, connection etc...

unknownuser

if you take any verse where the word ZEENATAN is mentioned, it's always about wealth, goods, , wealth and goods are obvious, possessions of value, like money, connection etc... the day of zeenat , is the day where everybody is celebrating, like a holiday , where everyone dress nice, and be in good mood
now, KHUMUR , aren't veils over the head, but KHUMUR means hiding/conceiling, and JUYUB, is pluriel of JEYB, wich means, pocket, box, chest , case, coffre etc...

it's talking about private possessions in general , and there are no cloths mentioned here

the main point in these verses , is , he is not talking about femeles only, but male and femeles, and when talking about the two genders, the quran speak to them in a femele style, opposed to al other languages, in the quran, the femele group when mixte with the male group, they are addressed as a femele group
in this verse, he said firs say to the MOUMININ .. and to the MOUMINATE... And they shall conceal their goods... he's talking about, the mouminine, and mouminate, re-read the verse from the begining

Peace,

Ok, we'll take Zeenat to refer to wealth and goods. But please give me a logical and reasonable answer to the question I asked you. That is

In the list of exceptions of the people by whom the Zeenat can be seen; What do 'Attendants/helpers without desire', and 'Children who have no knowledge of a woman's shame/privacy/sexuality/private parts' have anything to do with wealth?

Khumur orginates from the root of 'Khmr', and 'Khmr' refers to a 'Covering'. However, to understand the Quran, I think we should first see how the people to whom the Quran was directly being revealed to understood it, once we are done with that, only then we can interpret according to our understanding/era. Cause if keep on using modern Arabic, then God knows what type of interpretations we'll come to. According to classical Arabic dictionaries, Khimar specifically referred to a woman's headscarf/scarf/head veil.
Same case with Jayb. In modern Arabic it means 'Pocket', but pockets didn't come into existence till a very long time, according to classical Arabic dictionaries, it refers to a garment's neckline, or an opening in a garment. The same word appears in 2832, where God orders Moses to put his hand in his 'Jayb', and it only makes sense to refer to his sleeve opening; underarm. This is further strengthened by the Biblical account of his story. So in 2431, it refers to a woman's shirt's neckline. If you insist that Jayb refers to treasure chests/boxes, then don't you think the Arabs would at least know not to expose their treasures? I mean, they weren't that stupid, were they?
Can you please explain to me, with references your understanding of God addressing men and women as females? Your the first person who is saying that. By reading 2430-31, it clearly shows that God is giving separate orders to Muminin and Muminat, as two different types of Momins, that is, male momins and female momins. According to classical Arabic dictionaries, Muminin refers to male believers while Muminat to female believers. In fact, it seems like your contradicting yourself, at one moment you say that Mominat compromises of both males and females, and the next moment you say that first Momins were being addressed and then Mominats are being addressed.

First God says to say to the Mominin that

A. They restrain their gaze
B. They guard their genitals

As that will be purer for them, and indeed Allah is knowledgeable with all that they do

In the next verse He says to say to the Mominat

A. They restrain their gaze
B. They guard their genitals
C. They conceal their Zeenat except for what is/can be apparent
D. They put forth their Khumur over their Juyub
E. They may display their Zeenat to the list of people
F. They don't strike their feet as to make known what they hide of their Zeenat

If God addresses men and female both when He talks in a female style, then why is he separately ordering Mominin to restrain their gaze and guard their genitals as well. Why didn't He just say 'Say to the Mominat' without making mention of 'Mominin', as that would have included men and women both? Get my point?

howiesoares

this is really helpful. Thank you.

hawk99

My understanding of the dress code is based on the universally of Islam,
and that modesty is the goal.

Springing from that point of view, It is my interptretation of Quran that we need not dress as arabs. The the universalality of Islam says the eskimo does not have to dress like a modest arab but a modest eskimo, an american does not have to dress like a modest pakistani but a modest american

Now most of us recognize what modesty looks like

for a woman to cover herself from my peering eyes she would have to cover her thighs
and where her thighs meet, also her buttocks, her breasts, and an enticing walk
I never care about hair! why cover the hair makes no sense to me.
the face? I don't think so. but most importantly she must lower her gaze! i think that is why it is mentioned first because the eyes tell me what she is thinking so don't stare at the Hawk the wrong way, I may get the wrong idea.
Peace O0

And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests,

We thus made this (Quran) elucidated (clear) in your tongue, in order to deliver good news to the righteous, and to warn with it the opponents

loxbox13

Peace,

Ok, we'll take Zeenat to refer to wealth and goods. But please give me a logical and reasonable answer to the question I asked you. That is

In the list of exceptions of the people by whom the Zeenat can be seen; What do 'Attendants/helpers without desire', and 'Children who have no knowledge of a woman's shame/privacy/sexuality/private parts' have anything to do with wealth?

Khumur orginates from the root of 'Khmr', and 'Khmr' refers to a 'Covering'. However, to understand the Quran, I think we should first see how the people to whom the Quran was directly being revealed to understood it, once we are done with that, only then we can interpret according to our understanding/era. Cause if keep on using modern Arabic, then God knows what type of interpretations we'll come to. According to classical Arabic dictionaries, Khimar specifically referred to a woman's headscarf/scarf/head veil.
Same case with Jayb. In modern Arabic it means 'Pocket', but pockets didn't come into existence till a very long time, according to classical Arabic dictionaries, it refers to a garment's neckline, or an opening in a garment. The same word appears in 2832, where God orders Moses to put his hand in his 'Jayb', and it only makes sense to refer to his sleeve opening; underarm. This is further strengthened by the Biblical account of his story. So in 2431, it refers to a woman's shirt's neckline. If you insist that Jayb refers to treasure chests/boxes, then don't you think the Arabs would at least know not to expose their treasures? I mean, they weren't that stupid, were they?
Can you please explain to me, with references your understanding of God addressing men and women as females? Your the first person who is saying that. By reading 2430-31, it clearly shows that God is giving separate orders to Muminin and Muminat, as two different types of Momins, that is, male momins and female momins. According to classical Arabic dictionaries, Muminin refers to male believers while Muminat to female believers. In fact, it seems like your contradicting yourself, at one moment you say that Mominat compromises of both males and females, and the next moment you say that first Momins were being addressed and then Mominats are being addressed.

First God says to say to the Mominin that

A. They restrain their gaze
B. They guard their genitals

As that will be purer for them, and indeed Allah is knowledgeable with all that they do

In the next verse He says to say to the Mominat

A. They restrain their gaze
B. They guard their genitals
C. They conceal their Zeenat except for what is/can be apparent
D. They put forth their Khumur over their Juyub
E. They may display their Zeenat to the list of people
F. They don't strike their feet as to make known what they hide of their Zeenat

If God addresses men and female both when He talks in a female style, then why is he separately ordering Mominin to restrain their gaze and guard their genitals as well. Why didn't He just say 'Say to the Mominat' without making mention of 'Mominin', as that would have included men and women both? Get my point?

sorry for the delay, it's time that is the problem lol

the key word here is FURUJ
it doesn't means genitals, because genitals for male or femele is called JINSAYN and not furuj
the word furuj, depending of the context of the ayahs, but it mainly mean

Defects
Flaws
intimacy
privacy

exemple, - - 6 -

don't they look at the sky above them how we constructed it and adorned it and it doesn't have any FURUJ '(surah qaf, ayah 6)
look how the word ZAYANNA is in the verse, along with FURUJJ , aven though , the verse is talking about the sky

and nothing to do with genitals, it is a verse that has to be understood in a universel way , it concerns men of state , governors etc... not only parents who rule a family

unknownuser

sorry for the delay, it's time that is the problem lol

the key word here is FURUJ
it doesn't means genitals, because genitals for male or femele is called JINSAYN and not furuj
the word furuj, depending of the context of the ayahs, but it mainly mean

Defects
Flaws
intimacy
privacy

exemple, - - 6 -

don't they look at the sky above them how we constructed it and adorned it and it doesn't have any FURUJ '(surah qaf, ayah 6)
look how the word ZAYANNA is in the verse, along with FURUJJ , aven though , the verse is talking about the sky

and nothing to do with genitals, it is a verse that has to be understood in a universel way , it concerns men of state , governors etc... not only parents who rule a family

Its ok, but bro, your not addressing my points. I gave you four points, and I demanded an answer for point 1 and 4. I would really appreciate it if you do that.

As for your point on Furuj; Furuj in it's core meaning refers to an open space. It refers to something that is between boundaries. In that verse, God is saying that the sky has no furuj, that means 'Open spaces', and in the context of skies, it means 'Cracks', 'Gaps', thus it means 'Defect'. But it's core meaning is not 'Defect'. 'Defect' can be a form of an 'Open space'. In human context, it refers to the space between one's legs.

BTW if it means defects or flaws, then why is God ordering governors and men of state to guard their defects/flaws? Shouldn't the public know about the mistakes/flaws of their leaders?

Mazhar

The love and desire of sensual excitements and gratifications has become fascinatingly attractive in the women and the Sons;
So have become the desire to have a state of hoarded abundance of the Gold and the Silver, and the marked-pedigree horses , and abundance of herbivore-mammals, and for plenty of harvesting lands.
This is the wealth-sustenance-provision of transitory worldly life.

Mazhar

The suffixed object pronoun of Verb links back to . And the belief is something abstract.

johan

I think we are walking on fringe science so care should be taken lest we hurt each other bloodily..

I like loxbox's understanding of zeena to point to the idea of adornment/luxury in terms of financial sense it coincides with some of my understanding of nikaa7 as something entirely to do with financial and inheritance related issues rather than sexual..

Also like his idea of farj as flaw rather than physical organs..
to me a perfectly built being wouldn't have physical flaws would they? conscious/psyche related issues maybe but not physical body related stuff

3awrah maybe more related to the private parts be it body or financial/wealth/home, still wealth can be associated to 3awrah..

khumur is a bit tricky since it must have something to do with the notion of time as in khamar (fermentation? -> a39iru khamra)
haven't decided for what is khumur..

jalaba has something to do with assaulting/surrounding

danaya has something to do with close/near as in dunya and adna than that of dalawa (descend/to lower)

anyhing else that i missed?

Almahdi2

THE WOMEN WERE COMMANDED TWO VEILS (khumur)

one Khimar /head veil the other outer garment/cloak

Each were to be cast over the bosom
Khimar over the head , secured at the neck and falls on the chest/bosom
Jalabib/outer garment from the bosom and downwards

24 31 (and to draw their veils ALL OVER their Juyub) > Tafsir
And to draw their VEILS all over their / juybihinna (their bossoms)

(24311 juybihinna their bosoms

(27124) jaybika your bosom

(28324) jaybika your bosom

(to draw their Jalabib OVER THEIR bodies.) Tafsir

(to draw their JALABIB over their bodies.) Quran / jalabeebihinna (outer garments- 3359)
Jalabib > The Jilbab is a Rida', worn over the Khimar (head veil). Khimar falls down to the bosom then the second veil - cloak /outer garment is worn/cast/drawn over the Khimar/head veil from the bosom and down
So, the VEILS are to be drawn/cast all over their juybihinna ( )

The khimar/head veil ends over the bosom and the Jalabib/cloak/outer garment/coat begins from the bosom when being drawn/cast > draw ALL OVER THEIR BOSOMS

Their is nothing about covering the face. The word is not used their people inject it in their fancy interpretation of God's word
Donot place extreme fetters on the women in light of the many ethnicity that live throughout the Muslims world with their ignorant ways and practice on how they lowly kept women in their sight. Syrians are good to this practice of the veils that are now being worn and taken to be the true interpretation of the veil in the Quran- this is wrong. Women get educated and and stop this ignorance as well. Allah only commands ease not hardship and he did not command you to breath in your own carbon dioxide something that is not good at all for your health. He prescribe a healthy way of living. So ponder and live in honor, truth and peace

In the days of ignorance the women use to wear their shawl/scarf around their neck thrown to the back exposing their breast etc. which was a source of great temptation even for the believers , thus the command was first given to the men to lower their gaze. Their covering halfway would look similar to how the shawl/scarf/dupatta is thrown around the neck by the Indians, Pakistanis,etc. when they would wear their shalwar, and choli's etc.

After God commanded the women to help in assisting the men from committing Zina with the eyes. They were ask to cover up certain parts of their bodies with some exception

huruf

Of course anything women should do it will always be for the ske of men. How on earth could it occur to us that women should be instructed to do nything for their own ske when their only reason for existing is to make life a road of stardom for males? We all know that males are the thing aroundwhich revolves human kind and women for them.

Women dress for men, eat for men, exist for men, never never for the sake even of the children, only for men. Men are the reson for everything.

It must have been a slip on God's part when in 24.32 He tells women to not exhibit also before other women.Must have been a slip.

Salaam

Makaveli

Of course anything women should do it will always be for the ske of men. How on earth could it occur to us that women should be instructed to do nything for their own ske when their only reason for existing is to make life a road of stardom for males? We all know that males are the thing aroundwhich revolves human kind and women for them.

Swap men and women in your sentences and you will be closer what is really happening. A man works, get's his ass kicked in pursuing women , buys property, marries, divorces, works again due to losing most of his wealth to the previous life and that is all for the sake of women, since he hits puberty. And what do women do for men? Only give birth nothing else.

hansolo

Swap men and women in your sentences and you will be closer what is really happening. A man works, get's his ass kicked in pursuing women , buys property, marries, divorces, works again due to losing most of his wealth to the previous life and that is all for the sake of women, since he hits puberty. And what do women do for men? Only give birth nothing else.

If You are lucky to be born handsome and tall, women will throw yourself at you. They can't help it because the superior genes trigger their animalistic instincts. Every woman wants the best genes she can possibly get for her child, it is in her biology. Evolution.

Makaveli

If You are lucky to be born handsome and tall, women will throw yourself at you. They can't help it because the superior genes trigger their animalistic instincts. Every woman wants the best genes she can possibly get for her child, it is in her biology. Evolution.

It depends on cultural norms and not merely looks. Previously women preferred breadwinners, now they like PUA artists, who usually have no value whatsoever but create illusion of value by something called Fisherian runaway https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherian_runaway

But ouside of illusion men who are not breadwinners have no value whatsoever, besides looks, and are worthless. But thing is, modern women can make money by themselves, they are free from men and that is the sole reason they are after looks and sexual attraction rather than families and commitment.

Economy and culture are behind sexual preference, and seldom biology .

Now women choose because they are given freedom to do so, men are merely slaves, either to their instincts or labour, because they are forced to work like slaves until their 30's just to get a chance to marry.

Contrary to common opinion, Islamic world is not full of sex and marriages, but yes among Muslims communities people marry as young as possible, unlike the West. But not everywhere. Normal sum of 'mahr' in Iran is 100k per bride rotfl

Cerberus

human wearing advanced in an interesting way, and in ways that hid the body as if it said 'I'm more than what this body says about me'. Thus clothing yourself and walking around like you are something.

Women who are conscious enough know how to dress.

huruf

Swap men and women in your sentences and you will be closer what is really happening. A man works, get's his ass kicked in pursuing women , buys property, marries, divorces, works again due to losing most of his wealth to the previous life and that is all for the sake of women, since he hits puberty. And what do women do for men? Only give birth nothing else.

Nothing else.

Really mean, so then go and get unborn.

Otherwise you relly make steretypes and generalisations wholesale.

I do not know where you live, by what you say it might be in Saturn, but real life is nto like that poor males tale paying for ex wives who are real witches and so on.

You just don't feel how insulting the whole thing is. Not for me, thank God, I am satisfied with what I have but for many women who have children, just that, yes, and must also be breadwinners and still hear or red the crap some clever ones write.

Real men, do not grudge things to women and are really thankful for the children.

Women look for real men. Many fake it, but it finally it comes out. And there are unfortunately not that many real men. Many keep livng in their dream where women are there for them but not requiring anything they do not fncy. Nothing to do with what the Qur'an teaches. They exact from women, but anything they "give" it burns them like hell, yes, like hell.

So for those who complain about having to pay ex wives, I am gld to hear. It must be so, so, so painful... Oh their wives or their children? Orr for them it all translate as paying the wife because the children life off air?

Who wants that kind of sissy worthless men?

Salaam

good_logic

huruf, I am still giggling at "go and get unborn then"!!!!!

I am imagining millions of men going back to be reborn as women,but not a single woman going back to be reborn as male?

Anyway,we know already that "Inna Akramakum inda Allah Atquakum", so let people reflect on that.

Justice and fairness require that we go by GOD s definition only.
Our own views and biases are nothing new ,true or even taken any notice of by either sexes.

GOD bless.
Peace.

Makaveli

Nothing else.

Really mean, so then go and get unborn.

Otherwise you relly make steretypes and generalisations wholesale.

I do not know where you live, by what you say it might be in Saturn, but real life is nto like that poor males tale paying for ex wives who are real witches and so on.

You just don't feel how insulting the whole thing is. Not for me, thank God, I am satisfied with what I have but for many women who have children, just that, yes, and must also be breadwinners and still hear or red the crap some clever ones write.

Real men, do not grudge things to women and are really thankful for the children.

Women look for real men. Many fake it, but it finally it comes out. And there are unfortunately not that many real men. Many keep livng in their dream where women are there for them but not requiring anything they do not fncy. Nothing to do with what the Qur'an teaches. They exact from women, but anything they "give" it burns them like hell, yes, like hell.

So for those who complain about having to pay ex wives, I am gld to hear. It must be so, so, so painful... Oh their wives or their children? Orr for them it all translate as paying the wife because the children life off air?

Who wants that kind of sissy worthless men?

Salaam

You are not consistent. Your post was about how women do everything for men and that their only point in life is to serve men (and you talk about stereotypes after?), my point was it is vise versa. To be fair, we as species live in order to expolit another gender one way or the other, but men clearly have more burden for themselves in their lives. Bearing a child takes 9 months, a man is a slave for his whole life. That is quite the difference. I believe death of species is better than remaining slaves -X

huruf

You are not consistent. Your post was about how women do everything for men and that their only point in life is to serve men (and you talk about stereotypes after?), my point was it is vise versa. To be fair, we as species live in order to expolit another gender one way or the other, but men clearly have more burden for themselves in their lives. Bearing a child takes 9 months, a man is a slave for his whole life. That is quite the difference. I believe death of species is better than remaining slaves -X

Go and read my post, the one you first "answered" obviously you did not read it. Or you resding as people read dthe Qur'an, outting over what the Qur'an say their own idea of what the Qur'an should be saying.

I did not say women do things for men, I said certain men think that women revolve around them, tht everything that is said about women revolves around their usefulness to men.I did not and I will never will say that men do many things for women. They do things for their children, many, many not just deliver them, as you simply put it, but your own thought betray you. That is it. You think women should do things for men and even if it is not there, you see it.

Othe tthan that, I have been lucky to have known real men who relly ressemble the prophets intheir behaviour toward their family and the women in their family and women in general and I do know what they can do and which they would never but never boast about it or parade it. Real men

Your complaints about women smack of spoilt brats complaining about how much they deseive and thy do not get what they want. I won't read that kind of crap, it is deameaning for real males.

Salaam

Makaveli

Go and read my post, the one you first "answered" obviously you did not read it. Or you resding as people read dthe Qur'an, outting over what the Qur'an say their own idea of what the Qur'an should be saying.

I did not say women do things for men, I said certain men think that women revolve around them, tht everything that is said about women revolves around their usefulness to men.I did not and I will never will say that men do many things for women. They do things for their children, many, many not just deliver them, as you simply put it, but your own thought betray you. That is it. You think women should do things for men and even if it is not there, you see it.

Othe tthan that, I have been lucky to have known real men who relly ressemble the prophets intheir behaviour toward their family and the women in their family and women in general and I do know what they can do and which they would never but never boast about it or parade it. Real men

Your complaints about women smack of spoilt brats complaining about how much they deseive and thy do not get what they want. I won't read that kind of crap, it is deameaning for real males.

Salaam

Excellent answer. Took a while to understand it, try using spell check next time. I never said I believe women owe anything to men. As I said, people exploit the opposite gender, it is natural for us, I don't mean it is good. Your idea of "real men" circles not around prophets, but around your own cultural perception of what a real man is. Prophetic husbands is just an excuse. Such as when you tell that 'real men' in their behavior care towards their family AND women in their family AND women in general. Reminds me of how Muslims persuade others to blindly follow their Arabic religion, by saying Qur'an AND the Sunna AND the Family AND the traditions AND the shahada AND the traditions of the followers of Islam AND the traditions of Muhhammad associates.

Real men choose for themselves what to do, and whom to take care of Real men as opposite to slaves who have to work until their mid 30's to get a chance to marry someone of their age, but who had already met 60 guys so she probably knows more about what a real man is how men should treat her )

Now on the side note. It is clear that some people just fail to understand what others are talking about and call them whiners in case they speak something which opposes the common misbelief regarding the purity and holiness of women. Not sure where she saw me whinning, I was just kindly elaborating my stance on what is going on in CONTEMPORARY societies.

Some people here such as good logic met their wives during the World War II or something (sarcasm but the point is, they met their wives during another ERA, where social values were DIFFERENT) and they have no clue what these days sexual market is. Their conservative values have no value today, women pursue resources AND sex (as opposite to protection and stability as before), men pursue sex (as opposite to genuine companions for themselves). There is no place for mutual care or understanding. Men are becoming slaves, it is so easy to see it is actually funny how I have to explain all this.

You can throw stones at me as much as you want, but truth is truth.