homosexuality, the way forward?
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I think the kebab monster is a homosexual by the looks. The man seems keen on homos this is a fact. I am not saying I am a homo lets just make that clear but I think kebab moster is though. He seems to be like on of the village people with the moustaches and leather trouser I better not get the guy excited so please be aware.
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I think there are enough responses to your posts for you to reflect upon, so I will just add one more thing in regards to your study, take some time to ponder on the part of the story relating to the "Old Woman who lagged behind", why was she (Lot's wife) punished? This should help you to weigh the evidence. May the God increase us in knowledge and help us to be in a state of PEACE as we study and discuss these topics.
6610 Allah cites an example for those who deny the Truth. The wife of Noah and the wife of Lot, they were wedded to two of Our righteous servants yet each one betrayed her husband so that neither of them (their husbands) could avail them at all against Allah. And it was said, ?Enter the Fire along with others who enter it.?
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Peace Leyla,
zenje, I don?t understand your point about the strangers. Your becoming a little bit sarcastically emotional, it seems. (maybe I am as well)
I dont understand... I was being sarcastic about the strangers? ?When we see in the quran that the earth moves around the sun and say"oh, this just as it is, because we know this is fact, alhamdulillah", are we only refering to the quran, or ...... maybe science?
I will confirm only about me, as I have no authority above others... When the quran says something about the earth moves around the sun... thats all there is to it. I don't care if science opposed it or agreed with it. I mean that honestly. I put my trust in God not in science or whatever knowledge we aqcuire in my life. I hope I'm clear (no sarcasm, offence intended).
So when you say that "history" has shown that there were homosexuals before Lut... I take it you mean outside of the qur'an... please correct me if I'm wrong, thanks.Sorry, zenje, english is not my mother language and I am not conversing every day in it. Sometimes when its quite late and I am tired but want to make things clear I slip out of it.
Neither is it my mother tongue, but I understand completely.As I wrote, this issue is usually discussed with way too much emotions.
Believe me, I have issues attached to this subject. And I pretty much do or talk the same way with other subjects as well. You're studying this subject from both sides, and I applaud you for it. But try (and I know this is hard) to read and accept what God says... as opposed to mixing God's words with man's and claiming it all to be truth. ideaSister, we don't have to worry about which culture was better or not, we only need to look (SEE) the facts, the clear signs before us, if you look at a plug and an electric socket, is there any cause for you to think that you should try to rub two plugs together? Do you rub two straws together or do you put the straw in the drinking glass? Do you put the Gas pump in the tank on your car, or do you rub it against another gas pump? Does the God create haphazardly? Is this all without purpose?
Bravo, br. kyle... but will they SEE? Or do the personal desires and perversions cloud their view.Peace!
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Salaams!
marie, yes the people of Lut approached men in shahwaat. That?s what I?m saying.
idolfree1, your thing with the sockets and the plugs was ..... uhm.
I see it as deliberately difficult to see sexuality only in these biologiostic ways.
If you will, you will get into problems.
What will you tell people (and there are a lot of them out there, fewer then gays and lesbians, but they exist) who have xxy chromosomes or xo or whatever and who have ambiguous genitals by birth? Who?s their socket? Who`s their plug?
We are talking about Allahs creation. And, no, these people (of whom I?ve met some) are not disabled or ill or something. They just don?t have unambiguous chromosomes and/or unambiguous genitals.
Try to deal with that part of Allahs work.
When are they homosexual, when heterosexual? Is someone who is born with xxy and ambiguous genitals homosexual when he/she has a relationship with a man or with a woman?
Or should they maybe only have relationships with someone who is also like them? or only with people who are not?
There is also this seldom case of a variant hormone development in the womb where someone with xy chromosomes will be born with female looking genitals, will develop female in puberty, with female feelings, but her chromosomes and basic gonads are xy derived and infertile.
Masha*Allah.zenje, this topic is not an easy one for me. I deliberatley try to not be just an "open minded modernist" when thinking about this. I would hate it to be like that. The danger is big to fall into that trap, I agree.
But, after pondering, thinking, discussing and meditating on this subject for quite a long while now, I am quite sure (though God knows best) that the usual traditional interpretation of the story of Lut and homosexuality in Islam is just what you have mentioned The mixing of human ideas with God?s word.
As I mentioned in my first post, I am not as ready to state with all firmness that homosexuality is halaal.
But all those things that I read when studying this issue in the quran and trying to free myself from preformed interpretation also show to my heart and my reason that there is more to this issue than just a simple generalization.Honkey,
I don`t know on which guidance you base your life. However, the way you state things like that without knowing them in an open forum is not quranic at all. No matte what the state of homosexuality in islam may be It is against the teachings of our religion to act like that. The quran tells us 1. to respect the privacy of people and 2. not to make assumptions about people if we have no definit knowledge and 3. not to spread rumours.Bye,
Leyla
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Peace all,
What will you tell people (and there are a lot of them out there, fewer then gays and lesbians, but they exist) who have xxy chromosomes or xo or whatever and who have ambiguous genitals by birth? Who?s their socket? Who`s their plug?
We are talking about Allahs creation. And, no, these people (of whom I?ve met some) are not disabled or ill or something. They just don?t have unambiguous chromosomes and/or unambiguous genitals.
Try to deal with that part of Allahs work.
When are they homosexual, when heterosexual? Is someone who is born with xxy and ambiguous genitals homosexual when he/she has a relationship with a man or with a woman?
Or should they maybe only have relationships with someone who is also like them? or only with people who are not?
There is also this seldom case of a variant hormone development in the womb where someone with xy chromosomes will be born with female looking genitals, will develop female in puberty, with female feelings, but her chromosomes and basic gonads are xy derived and infertile.
Masha*Allah.No offence, but that is an invalid argument. The old this number of chromosomes vs. that number of chromosomes theory has never been scientifically substantiated.
You are either born male, female or hermaphrodite. Hermaphrodites are a complex subject of study all in it's own. However, when you are born definately male and definately female, it is not a case about number of chromosomes, it is a case about ones mentality.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Hello All,
I get the impression that a lot of people on this forum seem to be a little homophobic - why is that? Is belief in a transcendent God not enough to see individuals beyond human sexuality?
It is said that the soul is neither Male nor Female. So what is the meaning of Gender? And if God is neither male nor female what is the meaning of sexuality?
Some people have written, "Sex is used as a vehicle for pro-creation". Really? Why then do woman have a Clitoris?
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.
I think it is the sexual aspect that makes people uncomfortable about homosexuality. It is the ?un-natural? nature of homosexual sex that upsets a lot of people. Why is it so unnatural? Some have given examples of ?plug? and ?socket?. Is that the only way to have sex? If the plug fits then sex is ok. If it does not, then it is unnatural. How limited way of thinking is this! There are more ways of giving sexual pleasure than penetrative sex. Sex is not everything in a homosexual relationship neither it is in a heterosexual marriages. Recognise sex for what is. Sex is just pleasurable and how this pleasure is given, I think is not relevant to us. Is it not every individuals desire to be in a loving relationship? Is that not the most important thing?
Regards,
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zenje, this topic is not an easy one for me.
I understand. ) Perhaps it would help to recognize the reason. I also see the difficulty from what you say...I am quite sure (though God knows best)...I am not as ready to state with all firmness that homosexuality is halaal.... trying to free myself from preformed interpretation... deliberatley try to not be just an "open minded modernist" when thinking about this...
Maybe you're trying too hard? winkPeace sister.
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Peace LT,
I get the impression that a lot of people on this forum seem to be a little homophobic - why is that?
homophobia
- Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
- Behavior based on such a feeling.
I will speak for myself, I have no such feelings. To them I say, by all means, do what you wanna do... we will wait too. The problem comes in when one tries to justify it with God's words... please. I know we had this discussion about God's words, so lets not go into that here.
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.
Yes... base desires... and can be discarded. It is we who need to transcend it... not God )There are more ways of giving sexual pleasure than penetrative sex.
Yes... but what are we talking about?... how one can get pleasure? If thats the topic here, then my apologies, and I'm out. If not, then can we stick to the topic? What are we basing our discussion on really... quran?... science?... personal desires?...Peace
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Peace upon you all,
This is some conjecture and my personnal understanding, but I too think there's more to Lot's story than it's widely known.
In the sexual intercourses, there's also a "power relationship" between the persons involved in it. In the "laws of jungle", we have the stronger eating the weaker. In the same manner, in some "social group" among the animals (eg. sheeps), you have the dominant male(s) keeping the females only for themselves, and even more they don't stop at this, they also "rape" the other weaker males keeping them under control.
I believe this was the case with the barbaric community of Lot, and I won't be surprised if such behaviour is still in use in some communities.
Please, if anyone has more knowledge of this type of animal's behaviour, then enlighten us.
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Peace y'all,
Dear Leyla
marie, yes the people of Lut approached men in shahwaat. That?s what I?m saying.When we place strict knowledge of Arabic above logic and reflecting, it becomes quite easy for alot of us to see what we want to see rather than look at it for what it really is. The Quran does not exhort us to become Arabic scholars. The Quran exhorts us to ponder and reflect.
Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Yes, the Arabic phrase innakum is all inclusive, but those who know the grammar rules of the Arabic language also know that innakum is used primarily to identify male-plural. There is a seperate pronoun used to identify female-plural. According to the rules of Arabic grammar, whenever a group is made up of male and female, the male-plural pronoun is used to refer to the group.
Knowing this, when we read the passage in 781, it is either addressing a group of men or a group of men and women. How do we know which it is that it's addressing. This where 482 and 1736 come into play. Let's look at this verse again
"You come to men with desire INSTEAD of women; you are a TRANSGRESSING people."
Please do what The Quran exhorts us to do and Ponder/Reflect on what is being said in this verse. It is not hard to see. Why would Lut address both genders for approaching men with desire?? Why would he say Instead of women?? Why would he say that this behaviour makes them a Transgressing people??
If he was addressing women in this verse, then he would be calling the women transgressors for having the natural attraction towards the opposite sex.
If he was addressing both men and women in this verse, then he would be saying that men and women are to have an attraction to women only and not men at all. This would be the most illogical equation one can think of. How can anyone possibly work that one out?
The third, and only logical, understanding is that the use of the term innakum is in its primary use of male-plural. We don't need to be Arabic scholars to truly examine this verse. We need logic and common sense.
We all have to guard ourselves from being somewhat subjective. (myself included) We need to be objective enough to see it for what it is and not what we want it to be. I am not accusing you of anything, I am merely pointing out that it is something that we all need to guard against. Having said that, I would like to post an excerpt from an article written by Khaled Abou El Fadl called The Place of Tolerance in Islam
Ultimately, the Qur'an, or any text, speaks through its reader. This ability of human beings to interpret texts is both a blessing and a burden. It is a blessing because it provides us with the flexibility to adapt texts to changing circumstances. It is a burden because the reader must take responsibility for the normative values he or she brings to the text. Any text, including those that are Islamic, provides possibilities for meaning, not inevitabilities. And those possibilities are exploited, developed and ultimately determined by the reader's effortsgood faith efforts, we hopeat making sense of the text's complexities. Consequently, the meaning of the text is often only as moral as its reader. If the reader is intolerant, hateful, or oppressive, so will be the interpretation of the text.
To add to that, I believe that if a person is overzealous about standing up for the rights of homosexuals (I'm not accusing anyone here of doing such thing), then this person may bring that particular value to their understanding of Quranic Text. It is a trap that is very easy for most humans to fall into.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace all,
Dear Lote-Tree,
I get the impression that a lot of people on this forum seem to be a little homophobic - why is that? Is belief in a transcendent God not enough to see individuals beyond human sexuality?This is a bad argument. I'm assuming that you, like many of us here, discard hadith and sunnah as sources of law and guidance. If so, then those who do believe in hadith and sunnah can apply this same logic on you. They can accuse you of being hadith-phobic or sunnah-phobic. I agree with the definitions that Zenje has posted concerning the definition of homophobia and I also speak for myself when I say that I am not homophobic. I do not hate them, I do not condone gay bashing, nor do I personally condem them as a people. It is their acts that I condem, not the people!!
It is said that the soul is neither Male nor Female. So what is the meaning of Gender? And if God is neither male nor female what is the meaning of sexuality?
Bro, in all seriousness, this sort of logic has no place in the discussion. We are talking about US HUMANS, the creation, NOT GOD who is the creator. Two different entities altogether.
Some people have written, "Sex is used as a vehicle for pro-creation". Really? Why then do woman have a Clitoris?
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.
First of all, sex is used as a vehicle of pro-creation. How else do we naturally keep the species known as man in existence? As far as the sex is pleasurable logic, what else would you prefer it to be? It's quite enough that women go through plenty of discomfort when giving birth, why the need to have discomfort when performing the act that caused her to give birth to a new life?
I think it is the sexual aspect that makes people uncomfortable about homosexuality. It is the un-natural nature of homosexual sex that upsets a lot of people.
Me personally I'm not upset at all. It's their life. They have to answer for their own deeds just like I have to answer for mine. However, I will speak out if I see someone trying to give the seal of approval of this by using The Quran.
Recognise sex for what is. Sex is just pleasurable and how this pleasure is given, I think is not relevant to us. Is it not every individuals desire to be in a loving relationship? Is that not the most important thing?
No, it is not, the rules and code of conduct that GOD has mandated for us is what's the most important thing. The Quran condems in no uncertain terms those who place their own desires above what GOD said.
DEAR SOMEONE,
In the sexual intercourses, there's also a "power relationship" between the persons involved in it. In the "laws of jungle", we have the stronger eating the weaker. In the same manner, in some "social group" among the animals (eg. sheeps), you have the dominant male(s) keeping the females only for themselves, and even more they don't stop at this, they also "rape" the other weaker males keeping them under control.I believe this was the case with the barbaric community of Lot, and I won't be surprised if such behaviour is still in use in some communities.
Please, if anyone has more knowledge of this type of animal's behaviour, then enlighten us.
I have to provide you with the same response I gave to Lote-Tree....we are talking about man not animals. The Quran is written and revealed in human language. It is addressing human beings. We really need to stop going to behaviours in the animal world to okay the same behaviour with man.
The Quran is not written to sheeps, in sheep language and read by sheep. When the Quran addresses its subjects, it says Oh mankind, Oh believers, it does not say Oh sheep or Oh chimpanzees.
We should try to stick to what The Quran says and who it is that the Quran is addressing.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace Damon,
I know that the behaviour I exposed is even more disgusting than simple homosexuality, but there are some points in Lot's story that brought me to such understanding.
Fisrt, those males had mates, so it's not a simple "sex desire" they had.
Second, they even refused to have more females (Lot's daughters), so they were looking for something else.
Lastly, they were adressed as from "al-alameen" (kwonlegeables as per my understanding), thus stressing the fact that they are "knowingly" performing such acts with a specific purpose, not a simple desire.
But as I said before, it's mere conjecturing. Only the god knows what really happened in that community.
As for the animal part, we are basically animals of the specie "bashar", our basic behaviours are comparable with those of other animals. Surely, by acquiring language and knowledge, we emancipate to a higher plan, but still we keep those instincts in us, in a more controlled way.
And the god knows best.
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"I will speak for myself, I have no such feelings. To them I say, by all means, do what you wanna do... we will wait too."
Good attitude Zenje. I had never problems with other peoples homosexuality.
"The problem comes in when one tries to justify it with God's words..."
I am not justifying anything with God or scripture here nor should anyone else use God and Scripture to condemn homosexuality. Accept homosexuality and then move on. Our aim should be to go beyond sexuality of an individual.
Lote Tree wrote
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.zene wrote
"Yes... base desires... and can be discarded. It is we who need to transcend it... not God"Did I imply that we need to Trascend God? I said we need to use our belief in a trascended God to see beyond individuals sexuality.
"Yes... but what are we talking about?... how one can get pleasure? If thats the topic here, then my apologies, and I'm out. If not, then can we stick to the topic? What are we basing our discussion on really... quran?... science?... personal desires?..."
Here I put my whole wording again. We are talking about that it is the idea of homosexual sex that people are uncomfortable with.
LoteTree wrote
I think it is the sexual aspect that makes people uncomfortable about homosexuality. It is the ?un-natural? nature of homosexual sex that upsets a lot of people. Why is it so unnatural? Some have given examples of ?plug? and ?socket?. Is that the only way to have sex? If the plug fits then sex is ok. If it does not, then it is unnatural. How limited way of thinking is this! There are more ways of giving sexual pleasure than penetrative sex. Sex is not everything in a homosexual relationship neither it is in a heterosexual marriages. Recognise sex for what is. Sex is just pleasurable and how this pleasure is given, I think is not relevant to us. Is it not every individuals desire to be in a loving relationship? Is that not the most important thing?So tell me Zenje what is more important? Sex or Love?
Regards,
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Salaam,
I do not have a problem with homosexuals unless they start hitting on me. I'm sort of prejudiced against them as well and sometimes even think other people may be homosexual when they are not. Like when a dude is all up in my space and always touching me .
Joe
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I also speak for myself when I say that I am not homophobic. I do not hate them, I do not condone gay bashing, nor do I personally condem them as a people. It is their acts that I condem, not the people!!"
Good Damon, that makes us three of so far -)
"It is their acts that I condem, not the people!!"
You mean two "plugs" pleasuring each other you find deplorable? Why?
Bro, in all seriousness, this sort of logic has no place in the discussion. We are talking about US HUMANS, the creation, NOT GOD who is the creator. Two different entities altogether.
Why not Damon? Whats wrong in striving for a spirituality the goes beyond Gender and sex? We are here on this earth to grow both intellectually and spiritually. Do you think God will allow people to go to heaven with prejudices intact? I don't think so. If we are unable to debate this then we are stunting our growth as individuals.
"First of all, sex is used as a vehicle of pro-creation. How else do we naturally keep the species known as man in existence? As far as the sex is pleasurable logic, what else would you prefer it to be? It's quite enough that women go through plenty of discomfort when giving birth, why the need to have discomfort when performing the act that caused her to give birth to a new life?"
I said Damon, sex is pleasureable. It is for this pleasurable aspect that people engage in sex. Procreation then follows. Without pleasureable aspect of Sex the human race would have died out long time ago. God gave woman clitoris so that they may have pleasure in sex too. To imply that God gave clitoris to woman to compensate for childbirth is ludicrous. Function of the clitoris is just for pleasure and nothing else. Did you know that clitorial gland has more than 10 thousand different nerve endings? This is more than than any other gland in a woman's or man's body!
Me personally I'm not upset at all. It's their life. They have to answer for their own deeds just like I have to answer for mine. However, I will speak out if I see someone trying to give the seal of approval of this by using The Quran.
No. I am not trying to approve homosexuality using scripture Damon. All I am trying to say that we must see beyond the sexuality of a human being.
No, it is not, the rules and code of conduct that GOD has mandated for us is what's the most important thing. The Quran condems in no uncertain terms those who place their own desires above what GOD said.
I disagree with you on this. It is the individuals who are in a truly loving relationship, who put love as the important thing in their life find beauty and happiness in this world, which in turn reorients their lives to the Divine. These kind of people become more God-centred, understanding, tolerant and more spiritual.
Regards,
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But there is something else more important than either of these, and pretty much anything else I can think of. To Serve God.
I wish you could see the power of Divine Love then you would have realised God is beyond Servitude...
Regards,
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I wish you could see the power of Divine Love then you would have realised God is beyond Servitude...
I wish you could see the power of God, then you would have realised your divine lovey dovey means little or nothing.- Say ?Continue waiting; for I will wait along with you.?
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I wish you could see the power of God, then you would have realised your divine lovey dovey means little or nothing.
I do thats why God does not need my servitude. Perhaps he does yours since you can't concieve God beyond that of Master and Servant relationship...but perhaps that arument under another topic -)
Regards,