homosexuality, the way forward?
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Peace Leyla,
zenje, I don?t understand your point about the strangers. Your becoming a little bit sarcastically emotional, it seems. (maybe I am as well)
I dont understand... I was being sarcastic about the strangers? ?When we see in the quran that the earth moves around the sun and say"oh, this just as it is, because we know this is fact, alhamdulillah", are we only refering to the quran, or ...... maybe science?
I will confirm only about me, as I have no authority above others... When the quran says something about the earth moves around the sun... thats all there is to it. I don't care if science opposed it or agreed with it. I mean that honestly. I put my trust in God not in science or whatever knowledge we aqcuire in my life. I hope I'm clear (no sarcasm, offence intended).
So when you say that "history" has shown that there were homosexuals before Lut... I take it you mean outside of the qur'an... please correct me if I'm wrong, thanks.Sorry, zenje, english is not my mother language and I am not conversing every day in it. Sometimes when its quite late and I am tired but want to make things clear I slip out of it.
Neither is it my mother tongue, but I understand completely.As I wrote, this issue is usually discussed with way too much emotions.
Believe me, I have issues attached to this subject. And I pretty much do or talk the same way with other subjects as well. You're studying this subject from both sides, and I applaud you for it. But try (and I know this is hard) to read and accept what God says... as opposed to mixing God's words with man's and claiming it all to be truth. ideaSister, we don't have to worry about which culture was better or not, we only need to look (SEE) the facts, the clear signs before us, if you look at a plug and an electric socket, is there any cause for you to think that you should try to rub two plugs together? Do you rub two straws together or do you put the straw in the drinking glass? Do you put the Gas pump in the tank on your car, or do you rub it against another gas pump? Does the God create haphazardly? Is this all without purpose?
Bravo, br. kyle... but will they SEE? Or do the personal desires and perversions cloud their view.Peace!
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Salaams!
marie, yes the people of Lut approached men in shahwaat. That?s what I?m saying.
idolfree1, your thing with the sockets and the plugs was ..... uhm.
I see it as deliberately difficult to see sexuality only in these biologiostic ways.
If you will, you will get into problems.
What will you tell people (and there are a lot of them out there, fewer then gays and lesbians, but they exist) who have xxy chromosomes or xo or whatever and who have ambiguous genitals by birth? Who?s their socket? Who`s their plug?
We are talking about Allahs creation. And, no, these people (of whom I?ve met some) are not disabled or ill or something. They just don?t have unambiguous chromosomes and/or unambiguous genitals.
Try to deal with that part of Allahs work.
When are they homosexual, when heterosexual? Is someone who is born with xxy and ambiguous genitals homosexual when he/she has a relationship with a man or with a woman?
Or should they maybe only have relationships with someone who is also like them? or only with people who are not?
There is also this seldom case of a variant hormone development in the womb where someone with xy chromosomes will be born with female looking genitals, will develop female in puberty, with female feelings, but her chromosomes and basic gonads are xy derived and infertile.
Masha*Allah.zenje, this topic is not an easy one for me. I deliberatley try to not be just an "open minded modernist" when thinking about this. I would hate it to be like that. The danger is big to fall into that trap, I agree.
But, after pondering, thinking, discussing and meditating on this subject for quite a long while now, I am quite sure (though God knows best) that the usual traditional interpretation of the story of Lut and homosexuality in Islam is just what you have mentioned The mixing of human ideas with God?s word.
As I mentioned in my first post, I am not as ready to state with all firmness that homosexuality is halaal.
But all those things that I read when studying this issue in the quran and trying to free myself from preformed interpretation also show to my heart and my reason that there is more to this issue than just a simple generalization.Honkey,
I don`t know on which guidance you base your life. However, the way you state things like that without knowing them in an open forum is not quranic at all. No matte what the state of homosexuality in islam may be It is against the teachings of our religion to act like that. The quran tells us 1. to respect the privacy of people and 2. not to make assumptions about people if we have no definit knowledge and 3. not to spread rumours.Bye,
Leyla
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Peace all,
What will you tell people (and there are a lot of them out there, fewer then gays and lesbians, but they exist) who have xxy chromosomes or xo or whatever and who have ambiguous genitals by birth? Who?s their socket? Who`s their plug?
We are talking about Allahs creation. And, no, these people (of whom I?ve met some) are not disabled or ill or something. They just don?t have unambiguous chromosomes and/or unambiguous genitals.
Try to deal with that part of Allahs work.
When are they homosexual, when heterosexual? Is someone who is born with xxy and ambiguous genitals homosexual when he/she has a relationship with a man or with a woman?
Or should they maybe only have relationships with someone who is also like them? or only with people who are not?
There is also this seldom case of a variant hormone development in the womb where someone with xy chromosomes will be born with female looking genitals, will develop female in puberty, with female feelings, but her chromosomes and basic gonads are xy derived and infertile.
Masha*Allah.No offence, but that is an invalid argument. The old this number of chromosomes vs. that number of chromosomes theory has never been scientifically substantiated.
You are either born male, female or hermaphrodite. Hermaphrodites are a complex subject of study all in it's own. However, when you are born definately male and definately female, it is not a case about number of chromosomes, it is a case about ones mentality.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Hello All,
I get the impression that a lot of people on this forum seem to be a little homophobic - why is that? Is belief in a transcendent God not enough to see individuals beyond human sexuality?
It is said that the soul is neither Male nor Female. So what is the meaning of Gender? And if God is neither male nor female what is the meaning of sexuality?
Some people have written, "Sex is used as a vehicle for pro-creation". Really? Why then do woman have a Clitoris?
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.
I think it is the sexual aspect that makes people uncomfortable about homosexuality. It is the ?un-natural? nature of homosexual sex that upsets a lot of people. Why is it so unnatural? Some have given examples of ?plug? and ?socket?. Is that the only way to have sex? If the plug fits then sex is ok. If it does not, then it is unnatural. How limited way of thinking is this! There are more ways of giving sexual pleasure than penetrative sex. Sex is not everything in a homosexual relationship neither it is in a heterosexual marriages. Recognise sex for what is. Sex is just pleasurable and how this pleasure is given, I think is not relevant to us. Is it not every individuals desire to be in a loving relationship? Is that not the most important thing?
Regards,
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zenje, this topic is not an easy one for me.
I understand. ) Perhaps it would help to recognize the reason. I also see the difficulty from what you say...I am quite sure (though God knows best)...I am not as ready to state with all firmness that homosexuality is halaal.... trying to free myself from preformed interpretation... deliberatley try to not be just an "open minded modernist" when thinking about this...
Maybe you're trying too hard? winkPeace sister.
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Peace LT,
I get the impression that a lot of people on this forum seem to be a little homophobic - why is that?
homophobia
- Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
- Behavior based on such a feeling.
I will speak for myself, I have no such feelings. To them I say, by all means, do what you wanna do... we will wait too. The problem comes in when one tries to justify it with God's words... please. I know we had this discussion about God's words, so lets not go into that here.
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.
Yes... base desires... and can be discarded. It is we who need to transcend it... not God )There are more ways of giving sexual pleasure than penetrative sex.
Yes... but what are we talking about?... how one can get pleasure? If thats the topic here, then my apologies, and I'm out. If not, then can we stick to the topic? What are we basing our discussion on really... quran?... science?... personal desires?...Peace
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Peace upon you all,
This is some conjecture and my personnal understanding, but I too think there's more to Lot's story than it's widely known.
In the sexual intercourses, there's also a "power relationship" between the persons involved in it. In the "laws of jungle", we have the stronger eating the weaker. In the same manner, in some "social group" among the animals (eg. sheeps), you have the dominant male(s) keeping the females only for themselves, and even more they don't stop at this, they also "rape" the other weaker males keeping them under control.
I believe this was the case with the barbaric community of Lot, and I won't be surprised if such behaviour is still in use in some communities.
Please, if anyone has more knowledge of this type of animal's behaviour, then enlighten us.
--
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Peace y'all,
Dear Leyla
marie, yes the people of Lut approached men in shahwaat. That?s what I?m saying.When we place strict knowledge of Arabic above logic and reflecting, it becomes quite easy for alot of us to see what we want to see rather than look at it for what it really is. The Quran does not exhort us to become Arabic scholars. The Quran exhorts us to ponder and reflect.
Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Yes, the Arabic phrase innakum is all inclusive, but those who know the grammar rules of the Arabic language also know that innakum is used primarily to identify male-plural. There is a seperate pronoun used to identify female-plural. According to the rules of Arabic grammar, whenever a group is made up of male and female, the male-plural pronoun is used to refer to the group.
Knowing this, when we read the passage in 781, it is either addressing a group of men or a group of men and women. How do we know which it is that it's addressing. This where 482 and 1736 come into play. Let's look at this verse again
"You come to men with desire INSTEAD of women; you are a TRANSGRESSING people."
Please do what The Quran exhorts us to do and Ponder/Reflect on what is being said in this verse. It is not hard to see. Why would Lut address both genders for approaching men with desire?? Why would he say Instead of women?? Why would he say that this behaviour makes them a Transgressing people??
If he was addressing women in this verse, then he would be calling the women transgressors for having the natural attraction towards the opposite sex.
If he was addressing both men and women in this verse, then he would be saying that men and women are to have an attraction to women only and not men at all. This would be the most illogical equation one can think of. How can anyone possibly work that one out?
The third, and only logical, understanding is that the use of the term innakum is in its primary use of male-plural. We don't need to be Arabic scholars to truly examine this verse. We need logic and common sense.
We all have to guard ourselves from being somewhat subjective. (myself included) We need to be objective enough to see it for what it is and not what we want it to be. I am not accusing you of anything, I am merely pointing out that it is something that we all need to guard against. Having said that, I would like to post an excerpt from an article written by Khaled Abou El Fadl called The Place of Tolerance in Islam
Ultimately, the Qur'an, or any text, speaks through its reader. This ability of human beings to interpret texts is both a blessing and a burden. It is a blessing because it provides us with the flexibility to adapt texts to changing circumstances. It is a burden because the reader must take responsibility for the normative values he or she brings to the text. Any text, including those that are Islamic, provides possibilities for meaning, not inevitabilities. And those possibilities are exploited, developed and ultimately determined by the reader's effortsgood faith efforts, we hopeat making sense of the text's complexities. Consequently, the meaning of the text is often only as moral as its reader. If the reader is intolerant, hateful, or oppressive, so will be the interpretation of the text.
To add to that, I believe that if a person is overzealous about standing up for the rights of homosexuals (I'm not accusing anyone here of doing such thing), then this person may bring that particular value to their understanding of Quranic Text. It is a trap that is very easy for most humans to fall into.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace all,
Dear Lote-Tree,
I get the impression that a lot of people on this forum seem to be a little homophobic - why is that? Is belief in a transcendent God not enough to see individuals beyond human sexuality?This is a bad argument. I'm assuming that you, like many of us here, discard hadith and sunnah as sources of law and guidance. If so, then those who do believe in hadith and sunnah can apply this same logic on you. They can accuse you of being hadith-phobic or sunnah-phobic. I agree with the definitions that Zenje has posted concerning the definition of homophobia and I also speak for myself when I say that I am not homophobic. I do not hate them, I do not condone gay bashing, nor do I personally condem them as a people. It is their acts that I condem, not the people!!
It is said that the soul is neither Male nor Female. So what is the meaning of Gender? And if God is neither male nor female what is the meaning of sexuality?
Bro, in all seriousness, this sort of logic has no place in the discussion. We are talking about US HUMANS, the creation, NOT GOD who is the creator. Two different entities altogether.
Some people have written, "Sex is used as a vehicle for pro-creation". Really? Why then do woman have a Clitoris?
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.
First of all, sex is used as a vehicle of pro-creation. How else do we naturally keep the species known as man in existence? As far as the sex is pleasurable logic, what else would you prefer it to be? It's quite enough that women go through plenty of discomfort when giving birth, why the need to have discomfort when performing the act that caused her to give birth to a new life?
I think it is the sexual aspect that makes people uncomfortable about homosexuality. It is the un-natural nature of homosexual sex that upsets a lot of people.
Me personally I'm not upset at all. It's their life. They have to answer for their own deeds just like I have to answer for mine. However, I will speak out if I see someone trying to give the seal of approval of this by using The Quran.
Recognise sex for what is. Sex is just pleasurable and how this pleasure is given, I think is not relevant to us. Is it not every individuals desire to be in a loving relationship? Is that not the most important thing?
No, it is not, the rules and code of conduct that GOD has mandated for us is what's the most important thing. The Quran condems in no uncertain terms those who place their own desires above what GOD said.
DEAR SOMEONE,
In the sexual intercourses, there's also a "power relationship" between the persons involved in it. In the "laws of jungle", we have the stronger eating the weaker. In the same manner, in some "social group" among the animals (eg. sheeps), you have the dominant male(s) keeping the females only for themselves, and even more they don't stop at this, they also "rape" the other weaker males keeping them under control.I believe this was the case with the barbaric community of Lot, and I won't be surprised if such behaviour is still in use in some communities.
Please, if anyone has more knowledge of this type of animal's behaviour, then enlighten us.
I have to provide you with the same response I gave to Lote-Tree....we are talking about man not animals. The Quran is written and revealed in human language. It is addressing human beings. We really need to stop going to behaviours in the animal world to okay the same behaviour with man.
The Quran is not written to sheeps, in sheep language and read by sheep. When the Quran addresses its subjects, it says Oh mankind, Oh believers, it does not say Oh sheep or Oh chimpanzees.
We should try to stick to what The Quran says and who it is that the Quran is addressing.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace Damon,
I know that the behaviour I exposed is even more disgusting than simple homosexuality, but there are some points in Lot's story that brought me to such understanding.
Fisrt, those males had mates, so it's not a simple "sex desire" they had.
Second, they even refused to have more females (Lot's daughters), so they were looking for something else.
Lastly, they were adressed as from "al-alameen" (kwonlegeables as per my understanding), thus stressing the fact that they are "knowingly" performing such acts with a specific purpose, not a simple desire.
But as I said before, it's mere conjecturing. Only the god knows what really happened in that community.
As for the animal part, we are basically animals of the specie "bashar", our basic behaviours are comparable with those of other animals. Surely, by acquiring language and knowledge, we emancipate to a higher plan, but still we keep those instincts in us, in a more controlled way.
And the god knows best.
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"I will speak for myself, I have no such feelings. To them I say, by all means, do what you wanna do... we will wait too."
Good attitude Zenje. I had never problems with other peoples homosexuality.
"The problem comes in when one tries to justify it with God's words..."
I am not justifying anything with God or scripture here nor should anyone else use God and Scripture to condemn homosexuality. Accept homosexuality and then move on. Our aim should be to go beyond sexuality of an individual.
Lote Tree wrote
The fact is Sex is pleasurable. Sex can be an expression of Love for another individual. Sex is not an end in itself but by means by which loving relationships can be strengthened. But when two people truly love each other sex is no longer important. Sex can be discarded.zene wrote
"Yes... base desires... and can be discarded. It is we who need to transcend it... not God"Did I imply that we need to Trascend God? I said we need to use our belief in a trascended God to see beyond individuals sexuality.
"Yes... but what are we talking about?... how one can get pleasure? If thats the topic here, then my apologies, and I'm out. If not, then can we stick to the topic? What are we basing our discussion on really... quran?... science?... personal desires?..."
Here I put my whole wording again. We are talking about that it is the idea of homosexual sex that people are uncomfortable with.
LoteTree wrote
I think it is the sexual aspect that makes people uncomfortable about homosexuality. It is the ?un-natural? nature of homosexual sex that upsets a lot of people. Why is it so unnatural? Some have given examples of ?plug? and ?socket?. Is that the only way to have sex? If the plug fits then sex is ok. If it does not, then it is unnatural. How limited way of thinking is this! There are more ways of giving sexual pleasure than penetrative sex. Sex is not everything in a homosexual relationship neither it is in a heterosexual marriages. Recognise sex for what is. Sex is just pleasurable and how this pleasure is given, I think is not relevant to us. Is it not every individuals desire to be in a loving relationship? Is that not the most important thing?So tell me Zenje what is more important? Sex or Love?
Regards,
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Salaam,
I do not have a problem with homosexuals unless they start hitting on me. I'm sort of prejudiced against them as well and sometimes even think other people may be homosexual when they are not. Like when a dude is all up in my space and always touching me .
Joe
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I also speak for myself when I say that I am not homophobic. I do not hate them, I do not condone gay bashing, nor do I personally condem them as a people. It is their acts that I condem, not the people!!"
Good Damon, that makes us three of so far -)
"It is their acts that I condem, not the people!!"
You mean two "plugs" pleasuring each other you find deplorable? Why?
Bro, in all seriousness, this sort of logic has no place in the discussion. We are talking about US HUMANS, the creation, NOT GOD who is the creator. Two different entities altogether.
Why not Damon? Whats wrong in striving for a spirituality the goes beyond Gender and sex? We are here on this earth to grow both intellectually and spiritually. Do you think God will allow people to go to heaven with prejudices intact? I don't think so. If we are unable to debate this then we are stunting our growth as individuals.
"First of all, sex is used as a vehicle of pro-creation. How else do we naturally keep the species known as man in existence? As far as the sex is pleasurable logic, what else would you prefer it to be? It's quite enough that women go through plenty of discomfort when giving birth, why the need to have discomfort when performing the act that caused her to give birth to a new life?"
I said Damon, sex is pleasureable. It is for this pleasurable aspect that people engage in sex. Procreation then follows. Without pleasureable aspect of Sex the human race would have died out long time ago. God gave woman clitoris so that they may have pleasure in sex too. To imply that God gave clitoris to woman to compensate for childbirth is ludicrous. Function of the clitoris is just for pleasure and nothing else. Did you know that clitorial gland has more than 10 thousand different nerve endings? This is more than than any other gland in a woman's or man's body!
Me personally I'm not upset at all. It's their life. They have to answer for their own deeds just like I have to answer for mine. However, I will speak out if I see someone trying to give the seal of approval of this by using The Quran.
No. I am not trying to approve homosexuality using scripture Damon. All I am trying to say that we must see beyond the sexuality of a human being.
No, it is not, the rules and code of conduct that GOD has mandated for us is what's the most important thing. The Quran condems in no uncertain terms those who place their own desires above what GOD said.
I disagree with you on this. It is the individuals who are in a truly loving relationship, who put love as the important thing in their life find beauty and happiness in this world, which in turn reorients their lives to the Divine. These kind of people become more God-centred, understanding, tolerant and more spiritual.
Regards,
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But there is something else more important than either of these, and pretty much anything else I can think of. To Serve God.
I wish you could see the power of Divine Love then you would have realised God is beyond Servitude...
Regards,
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I wish you could see the power of Divine Love then you would have realised God is beyond Servitude...
I wish you could see the power of God, then you would have realised your divine lovey dovey means little or nothing.- Say ?Continue waiting; for I will wait along with you.?
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I wish you could see the power of God, then you would have realised your divine lovey dovey means little or nothing.
I do thats why God does not need my servitude. Perhaps he does yours since you can't concieve God beyond that of Master and Servant relationship...but perhaps that arument under another topic -)
Regards,
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Peace all,
Dear Someone,
Fisrt, those males had mates, so it's not a simple "sex desire" they had.781 plainly says that the men approached other men with desire. It is plain to read and quite simple. This verse mentions nothing else but that.
Second, they even refused to have more females (Lot's daughters), so they were looking for something else.
Exactly!! They were looking for something else other than what was offered to them and what GOD had alreay blessed them with.......and that was men. The verse plainly says it!!
Lastly, they were adressed as from "al-alameen" (kwonlegeables as per my understanding), thus stressing the fact that they are "knowingly" performing such acts with a specific purpose, not a simple desire.
This may sound arrogant, but I guarantee you that you are misreading this verse. Of course they knowingly approached men with ill intent, because they instinctively knew that this was wrong, hence they were called a transgressing people.
As for the animal part, we are basically animals of the specie "bashar", our basic behaviours are comparable with those of other animals. Surely, by acquiring language and knowledge, we emancipate to a higher plan, but still we keep those instincts in us, in a more controlled way.
Until you can post a verse in The Quran that is addressed to animals of the wild, this argument is both basless and pointless.
Dear Lote-Tree,
. Do you think God will allow people to go to heaven with prejudices intact?I certainly do because He Himself is prejudiced towards Shirk. The Message says that those who die in a state of shirk will Never be admitted into Paradise. That says it all. If there weren't any prejudices towards certain things that we should hold to, then why would GOD even bother to reveal scripture in the first place if alot of these things didn't matter??
If we are unable to debate this then we are stunting our growth as individuals.
Actually, this will be my final post in this thread. People are going to believe and uphold that which they want to. But I also have to say that it isn't about debate. Everytime The Quran speaks of Lawful sexual relationship it is always spoken of in two contexts
1). Marriage and...
2). Between male and femaleI am waiting for someone here to post a verse where The Quran okays a sexual relationship between the same sex as it does the sexual relationship between the opposite sex.
Without pleasureable aspect of Sex the human race would have died out long time ago
That's the very point that I was making myself. There is absolutely nothing natural about two men engaging in their activities. The first few times they do that, I'm sure that it's not an experience most normal people would welcome. It's obvious that they only get used to it in time. But it is also a fact that the elasticity in that part of their anatomy wears out over time to where they have to wear like Depends or something because they literally go to the bathroom on themselves and they cannot control it.
To imply that God gave clitoris to woman to compensate for childbirth is ludicrous
Well to start with, I never said that. And I think it's wrong to to tell someone what they are implying. Unless you specifically say a thing, I will not assume that you are implying something because I may be wrong.
Secondly, if the woman did not have the clitoris, more than likely the act of sex would be as unpleasurable as labor and none of the woman would be willing to engage in it. If that were the case, I would have to repeat what you said yourself.....
Without pleasureable aspect of Sex the human race would have died out long time ago.I disagree with you on this. It is the individuals who are in a truly loving relationship, who put love as the important thing in their life find beauty and happiness in this world, which in turn reorients their lives to the Divine. These kind of people become more God-centred, understanding, tolerant and more spiritual.
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"
On an ending note, I must express my disappointment in how some free-minders may even consider okaying this with GOD. We are supposed to free our minds, not lose them. I think it to be immoral and quite tasteless that some people are so gung ho about abandoning tradition that they now seek to re-invent the wheel so to speak. It is really bothersome when we discover that these people seek to condone such acts in the name of being Politically Correct. Progressivemuslims.com (which is where I believe Leyla is from) has already treaded this path. It seems there may some here who wish to tread that same path. Sorry for the harsh and forthright tone, but if no one else is going to say anything about it, then I will. Please read everysingle passage in The Quran concerning the community of Lut. It is written in plain language, the subject matter is very clear and no where close to being ambigous or confusing. Believe you will and behave as you will. We wil all be held accountable.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Salaam!
Well, well, well ... .
idolfree1, chromosomes or not, hermaphrodites still don?t fit your "plug" and "socket" idea. By the way, hermaphrodites are not simply hermaphrodites. There are different kinds of hermaphroditism. But to discuss about this would be a little bit off topic I fear.
A lot of replys and a lot of thoughts and I don?t know if I can still go with the flow.
As I wrote, my thoughts are still a half cooked soup that I still wanted to share as a contribution.
The traditional interpretation doesn?t convince me and the arguments brought forwards here in favour of it still don`t convince me. I have heard them before. However, coming from them I started to see a different picture. Which might be right or wrong.
I think I will retreat from this discussion until my soup is ready. One shouldn?t offend guests with raw vegetables.
(this sounds a little bit like an angry teenager .... no, I?m not angry at all and not really offended; I just mention a decision of mine taken through reason)Whatever, I would like to adress one last thing
I think it is sad that one can?t discuss an issue like that without suspicions coming up. No, I am not from progressivemuslims.com. I haven?t even visited that page for .....months? ..... years? ..... .
At the moment I don?t even recall the content of that webpage, although the name gives hints.
I am an independent person affiliated with no definit ideological organisation or club (despite the fact that I am a citizen of somethign called "state") and I am struggling to understand the quran for my own growth. That?s all.
Actually, it might be quite possible, that I read and studied every single passage of the story of Lut much more often than you, Damon. Maybe.
(ooo, gosh, now who?s becoming emotional .... laughing.... behave leyla)
And I don?t know how people here come to judge or know my motives for sharing thoughts. They are not what you may think. But think what you like.
And, personally, I do have a big dislike for political correctness. Its sometimes , quite personally, a very disturbing attitude for me.
That should have been said.Peace,
Leyla