Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back
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peace t11,
I disagree with your view on being misleading, so not much to add to that.
Re 1)
You admitted the wife can abandon the bed thus she can do exactly as per the husband in 434.Re 2) and 3)
You admitted one can respond to w3z. A one way monologue is when only one person speaks, please see any dictionary.The point is why the same words with same connotations not used in both verses?
I already answered this.
Why didn't 4128 ask the wife to "advise" (monologue) the husband and then for the husband to be "obedient" to that advice? There is "atanakum" in 434 but not in 4128.
Again, there is no prohibition upon the wife, e.g. she can say whatever, including making demands, for which the husband can choose to obey or not.
You yourself go to great lengths in your article to show that there was no wrongdoing in both verses. It was just a fear.
You are contradicting yourself and also going against what 4128 clearly indicates.
Rather than selective quoting, perhaps you should re-read the entirety of what I wrote, quote
"...so do not deviate all the deviation..." (Arabic fala tameeloo kulla al mayli, root Miim-Ya-Lam), see 427 for similar occurrence (Arabic tameeloo maylan AAatheeman).
This implies some deviation has occurred, advising not to deviate all the way, i.e. emphasising to do the right thing. This usage further reinforces the implication that the husband is in the wrong in this situation or the cause of negativity, and use of the perfect/past tense of "feared"I did not contradict myself.
Although I could have been clearer on this (in the part you quoted). I meant in the wife's presence, similar to how I discussed it for 434. I have amended the article accordingly.
Additionally, 4129 is also discriminatory and gives a convenient excuse to the male for not being able to be fair. Why didn't it also say "And you will not be able to be fair between the men even if you make every effort; so do not deviate all the deviation so you leave him as one hanging"?
My understanding is that a wife cannot have more than one husband at the same time.
Dictionary
discrimination
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
2.
recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.I assume you are referring to (1). To word something differently does not necessarily mean unjust discrimination. I would suggest unjust discrimination is when there is no logical/practical reason for the difference in treatment. It would be interesting to compile a Quran based article on this point.
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Peace Wakas,
Re 1)
You admitted the wife can abandon the bed thus she can do exactly as per the husband in 434.The issue is not what the wife can or cannot do. The issue is the discrimination in the specific recommendations of 434 and 4128. Since you have no refutation to the actual CLEAR discriminatory wordings, it is a moot point to continue this discussion with you.
Re 2) and 3)
You admitted one can respond to w3z. A one way monologue is when only one person speaks, please see any dictionary.434 recommends a one way monologue the response to which is obedience of the wife. I can say a curse word in response to a CLEAR ONE WAY MONOLOGUE (WA-AYN-ZA) does not make it mean it is a dialogue. THE WORD ITSELF CLEARLY INDICATES A ONE WAY MONOLOGUE IN ALL MEANINGS WHICH IS STRENGTHENED BY EXPECTATION OF OBEDIENCE FROM WIFE IN RESPONSE.
Since you cannot grasp/comprehend this simple/elementary concept and keep denying the CLEAR INDICATION OF A ONE WAY MONOLOGUE it is moot point to continue this discussion with you.
Again, there is no prohibition upon the wife, e.g. she can say whatever, including making demands, for which the husband can choose to obey or not.
That is not the issue.
I did not contradict myself.
Since you have resorted to clear cut denial, it's a moot point to discuss this further with you.
Although I could have been clearer on this (in the part you quoted). I meant in the wife's presence, similar to how I discussed it for 434. I have amended the article accordingly.
THE FACT THAT YOU HAD TO AMEND YOUR ARTICLE IS PROOF OF YOUR CONTRADICTION
If there was no contradiction in your words there was no need to amend the article. It's ok to admit a portion of your article had a clear contradiction, it will not make you a lesser person. Just a humble advice. We are all humans and can make errors.
"...so do not deviate all the deviation..." (Arabic fala tameeloo kulla al mayli, root Miim-Ya-Lam), see 427 for similar occurrence (Arabic tameeloo maylan AAatheeman).
This implies some deviation has occurred, advising not to deviate all the way, i.e. emphasising to do the right thing. This usage further reinforces the implication that the husband is in the wrong in this situation or the cause of negativity, and use of the perfect/past tense of "feared"No it does not imply some deviation has occurred. It is just an advice telling him not to leave her completely hanging AS FAR AS RECONCILIATION IS CONCERNED and to either reconcile or involve arbiters, and doesn't imply any wrongdoing.
Otherwise then 434 and 4128 are not coherent at all and your entire basis of deriving the meaning of "idriboo" i.e. they are addressing a similar situation is shattered. Then you cannot use 4128 to justify "cite" as meaning of "idriboo". Then the two verses are addressing different issues, one with no wrongdoing and the other with wrongdoing.
According to your understanding, 434 involves no wrongdoing of wife and 4128 involves wrongdoing of husband.
This makes it even more discriminatory for a much harsher treatment of wife with no wrongdoing (one way advice with obedience expected, and abandon her in bed), versus a reconciliation when husband is in the wrong. Congratulations, you just made the issue worse.
Moot point discussing this further since its getting circular.
My understanding is that a wife cannot have more than one husband at the same time.
Which is again a discrimination. Why can't a rich woman marry up to 4 poor single fathers to take care of the motherless children?
I actually meant to write with him but thanks to your remark I see more discrimination.
Here you go for your "understanding"
4129 is also discriminatory and gives a convenient excuse to the male for not being able to be fair. Why didn't it also say "And you will not be able to be fair with the man even if you make every effort; so do not deviate all the deviation so you leave him as one hanging"?
I assume you are referring to (1). To word something differently does not necessarily mean unjust discrimination. I would suggest unjust discrimination is when there is no logical/practical reason for the difference in treatment. It would be interesting to compile a Quran based article on this point.
Yes I am referring to (1).
There is an obvious unjust discrimination as there is no logical/practical reason for the difference in treatment.
In fact your admission of 4128 indicating a wrongdoing makes the discrimination even worse as explained above.
Since you have been unable to resolve these obvious discriminations, it is a moot point discussing this further. Go ahead, you can have the last word
I haven't even started on the discrimination "preferred some of them over the others" no matter what groups being referred to! What was the fault of the ones not preferred?
Peace
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Peace Wakas,
Additionally, if according to your understanding, "do not deviate a full deviation" implies wrongdoing on husband's part then 4129 would actually be encouraging that behavior by making an excuse for the men by saying they will not be able to be fair regarding the women even if they make every effort. In other words, since it is impossible to be fair to the women, it's ok to do some wrongdoing, just not do extreme wrongdoing and just try to reconcile. Do you realize the horrible implications of your understanding?
If I tell you don't commit extreme crimes because it is impossible to be crime free, and from that someone falsely implies that you have already committed a lesser crime (huh), then this will also imply that lesser crimes are ok, as long as you avoid the big ones.
So not only does this view shatter your basis for "cite" as an interpretation for "idriboo" (since the situation in 434 and 4128 will not be similar anymore), it makes the discrimination worse (one way advice with expectation of obedience, and abandonment of women in bed, even when no wrongdoing on part of women, versus reconciliation and excuses to justify male behavior, even when men are in the wrong), and it also encourages committing "lesser" wrongdoings to women. This is an indisputable outcome of your false understanding.
The "do not deviate a full deviation" comes AFTER the reconciliation advice in 4128 so it cannot possibly imply wrongdoing by men. This do not sway part is referring to reconciliation, meaning try to reconcile soon rather than leave them hanging.
Anyway, no further comments from me, since the discussion has become circular.
Peace
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4.34 when it speaks about nushhuz is not ddrssing the husband nor is it speaking aobut wivs, it is speaking about women and in the plural, they may be married they may be not married and it ties with 4.15.
In both aya where it speaks of nushuz ther is a fear in one case, 4.34, in the community of believers, i the second case on the part of he wife. The first ce is a matter social matter and the second, for the moment, at least, a private matter. In 4.34 is the matter of the welfare of those women who may find themselves driven ito nushuz, and in the secod is the virtue of private man who may be tempted into nushuz. Nothig is done in both case. There is fear that something may be done, therefore i both cases it is a mattr of preventing it happen. In the first case it is a social action, in the second a private action by a wife.
4.129 Why should this aya refer to several wives, it doe snnot say so, it is speaking again of nisaa', ot your wives but the nisaa of the group to which it is addressed, and it is telling men to behave themselves, for instance no swaying their behaviour in favour of one they like more as against anothr one for whim they have ill feelings, that they must be wives is pure invention, It is also talking about breaking, so one may want to punish the "bad one" by giving undue favours to th "good one". Some men tend to do that. the multiples wives is pure imagination. as is pure imagination that it is about wives that it is talking in 4.34.
There is this glitch in many maleminds that anything that the Qur'an says about womenn must revolve arounnd men, about the wants of men, the needs of men, the wishes of men. Well that is all i the mens mind, not in the Qur'an. When the Qur'an means wives it makes it clear that it is referred to wives, and when it uses the generic plural addressing the believers or the naas it is also clear that it is ot addressing the males but the whole community. "Your women, are the women of the whole community. Also the women of the women, not the wives of anybody.
I know nobody is going to take any notice of this except to show that it is not grue, but still I say it just in case feel like renewing the malecast mind and open up a little. In fact inn doesnt kill, it does ntokill neither males nor females.
Salaam
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peace t11,
I'm disappointed by your reply. Please read what I write carefully.
Re 2) and 3)
I never said a response makes it a two way dialogue, but it is also not a one way monologue. You chose your words poorly - not only is your claim of a one way monologue refuted by any dictionary but also by you contradicting yourself when you admitted a response can be given.
In any case, you seem to think since w3z is used no dialogue between husband/wife can take place. Not only is this incorrect, it is also illogical/impractical.Example
Husband advises/admonishes/preaches to his wife (let's call the content of what he said 'X'
Wife replies can you clarify what you mean by this part of X?
Husband I cannot enter into a dialogue with you, t11's interpretation does not allow for that.
Wife But I'm not sure what you mean so how can I obey that part?
Husband No dialogue.Your position is impractical/illogical.
And you will note, the husband fulfilled the recommendation of advising.
Perhaps you can let us know if, in your view, the husband is banned from having a discussion with his wife? ;Dt11's illogical reasoning
amending of article proves contradictionSide note saying its a contradiction in bold and caps does not make it a contradiction either. ;D
In 4129 it is described as a deviation. It is not something obvious/blatant/proven or a crime etc. The implication is the husband has deviated somewhat and should do the right thing in settling the matter. I also discuss the subjectivity/relativity of this in the article.
And the understanding of "cite them" does not require 434 and 4128 to be equivalent in every way, or even similar (although they are similar). My point is what step comes after deadlock and before arbiters/authority getting involved. The answer is obvious authority notification.
With regard to the other discriminations you claimed, perhaps you can tell us (since you confidently claim they are discriminations) what are the arguments for/against. Let us see what thought you have put into such claims.
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Re this post
What do you mean by "CITE THEM". Do you mean refer them to the court? or tell someone about their misbehavior?. Your argument is that (which i understood from your article) how would authority know that there is a rift in relation between husband and wife. The only way is if someone tell them. Husband or wife or any other close family member would inform the court. Am i correct?
Also, in your view "NUSHOOZ" mean cheating with husband?.
Please re-read www.Quran434.com as your questions are answered there.
To understand what "cite them" means simply read 434-35.
435 connects to 434 with the Arabic "wa" / and, and in 435 the authority is clearly involved. Thus, the obvious question to ask is how did they end up getting involved? Who told them? Quran seems to have missed this step out...... or did it?
The logical (and perhaps only) step after deadlock and before authority involvement is notifying the authority of the situation, hence the last step given to the husband is "cite them".
The exact same thing happens in 581-4. A perfect match, as explained in the article.Re nushuz
"uprising" (Arabic nushuz, root Nun-Shiin-Zay) is the literal meaning and in context means rising up (above relationship/marital limits)...
...if we take these factors into account, it suggests unseen "disloyalty/infidelity/ill-conduct/rebellion" in some way. -
Peace Wakas,
Thanks for your reply. It makes perfect sense. I would like to write your article in URDU in a simple form as yours is in English and only helpful for those you can understand English language. Also, it is quite dense and I have read your article many times to grasp your opinion but still i asked a stupid question. Don't take me wrong, i love your article.
I don't know if you can understand or read URDU but before putting on the different forms i would like to send you first article in Urdu so that you can read (it depends if you can read and speak Urdu) if i understood your opinion correctly. Is that possible if i have your email address? and of course i will mention your website. It is basically not translation of your article but writing in a simpler form as i understood after reading your article.
I have written articles on different topics on Quran but they are all in Urdu. In Pakistan, people are not very educated and mass majority cant fully understand English, especially the one written in your article. That is the reason i would like to write it in a simpler form to spread this message to others, so that more people can benefit from it.
Lastly, if i say "CITE THEM" in URDU it would be "In ki nishandahi karo" am i correct?
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Peace Wakas,
Thanks for your reply. It makes perfect sense. I would like to write your article in URDU in a simple form as yours is in English and only helpful for those you can understand English language. Also, it is quite dense and I have read your article many times to grasp your opinion but still i asked a stupid question. Don't take me wrong, i love your article.
I don't know if you can understand or read URDU but before putting on the different forms i would like to send you first article in Urdu so that you can read (it depends if you can read and speak Urdu) if i understood your opinion correctly. Is that possible if i have your email address? and of course i will mention your website. It is basically not translation of your article but writing in a simpler form as i understood after reading your article.
I have written articles on different topics on Quran but they are all in Urdu. In Pakistan, people are not very educated and mass majority cant fully understand English, especially the one written in your article. That is the reason i would like to write it in a simpler form to spread this message to others, so that more people can benefit from it.
Lastly, if i say "CITE THEM" in URDU it would be "In ki nishandahi karo" am i correct?
Better to give a synopsis of what you have understood before putting it in Urdu. That will help Wakas and others to see what have you perceived from the article.
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Mazhar,
English is not my first language and i openly admit that i can't speak and write fluently. Even i have been living and working in England since 2004. I can write better in Urdu as compared to in English. Therefore, i requested that if i can write up in my own words and present it to Wakas. If he would be happy then i will publish it on Facebook and spread this message. Please understand my limitation in this matter. Could you translate CITE THEM in Urdu please if you don't mind?
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Aqua's website (http//www.quranverse434.com/) is down. I can't get in it now. Can anyone contact brother/sister Aqua about this?
Otherwise we can see it in Internet Archive https//web.archive.org/web/20190124211540/http//quranverse434.com/
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Ah no worries dear brother.
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The website is back up
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Ah excellent dear brother.
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