homosexuality, the way forward?
-
Peace all,
We can always count on our brother Tay to bring peace and civility to a discussion that may have taken a bad turn.
Tay Wrote,
Everyone has gotten everything off their chests. Let's be constructive now.Okay, I'll take your approach to the situation bro.
None of us can really identify the problem, and therefore, no solution.
Although I don't claim to be a Psychology Major, I believe that we can identify the problem. I personally believe that the problem is a Psychological Problem. Therefor, a Psychological Solution needs to be implemented.
We also agree that homosexuals shouldn't be punished nor condemned, only advised.
I agree that we Do Not have the right to punish them. Only GOD has that right. I Do Not condone, uphold or support Gay Bashing at all. I don't condem the person, but I'd be lying if I say that I don't condem The Behaviour. I condem it for the same reasons I condem murder, rape, theft, cheating, lying and a host of other deeds that The Quran condems. I also share Truth's sentiments about the In Your Face gay movement. The whole I am Gay, Hear Me Roar phenomenon that has been sweeping Western society as of late. I truly believe that behavior is the root cause of Gay Bashing. Gay people have existed for a very long time in our society. But gay bashing did not exist for as long. I believe that gay bashing is a reaction to the gay movement....my opinion.
All I'm asking, is what do we advise
We advise gay people that their lifestyle is one that goes against the design and intentions of GOD. We further advise that it is a psychological conditioning that they can and should seek therapy for. Just as depressed, suicidal and angry people have shrinks that they see, so can homosexuals.
There have been comparisons to pedophilia. This is an unbalanced comparison as pedophilia is clearly a case of physical and mental dominance.
I was not concentrating on the physical aspects of it, nor was I focusing on the fact that it is unconsentual abuse of children. What I was focusing on when I made this comparison is the fact that BOTH homosexuals and pedophiles have a mental depravity which causes them to think how they do and perform the acts that they do. Just as it is wrong and against God's design for grown men to have their way with children, it is just as wrong and just as against GOD's design for two people of the same sex to enjoy the sexual relationship that they have with each other. If we continue to say that these people were born that way and that they have genes that cause them to be this way, then we can accept the same argument and excuses for pedophiles and rapists. As far as the theory that there is scientific evidence to support the Born that way view, it remains only a theory. That theory has never been scientifically substantiated. Most Importantly, it has no support or basis in The Quran.
It was also said in this thread that not all homosexuals have sex and that they live together and enjoy each others company and companionship. I believe this is false otherwise why would they claim to be homosexual? Also, I can enjoy that kind of relationship with another man.....it's called best friends or roommates. I have a best friend who is male. We enjoy each others company and we do love each other. We grew up together and he is my closest friend. If I didn't have a family to support, it's quite possible that we would share the same apartment or something. That's what best friends do. So to say that not all HS have sex is an untruth. If they are not having sex, they are not HS they are merely best friends. If they are having sex, then they are HS. No one who claims to be a HS and has a partner merely has that partner as a friend w/out them also performing their acts privately. That's nonsense.
The same cannot be said of 2 people of the same gender involved in a consentual physical and spiritual bond. They see nothing wrong with what they're doing.
Yes, this is true Tay. But Christians see nothing wrong with saying that GOD has a son who died for our sins. Sunnis see nothing wrong with stoning people for adultery. Child abusers see nothing wrong with beating their kids with switches and chords. All of these people have to be made to see what is wrong their orientations and behaviour.
I ask that you imagine yourself sitting face to face with a person who is admittedly gay and sees nothing wrong with their chosen lifestyle. What do you say to this person?
The first thing that I would do is ask them if they are going to be honest with me and tell me the truth. If they agree to this, then the next thing I will ask is about their personal history. (childhood experiences, upbringing, relevent milestones, etc.) This, of course, is the territory of Therapists and Psychologists. But I do believe that this is the treatment that needs to be undertaken. For the record, quite a few years (when I was still a teenager) there was this dude who was from my neighborhood. He was never like a hardcore thug, but he wasn't what one might call limp wristed (for lack of a better term) He was always into stealing cars, selling drugs, etc. Just a real loser type cat. Anyway, he went to prison for some years (he did Federal time) and came back home gay. Some years have past when it finally came out that he had his manhood taken while he was there and he has since struggled with his identity and orientation. My uncle had similar incedents when he was in prison and instead of becoming gay, he impregnated like 4 or 5 women within the same week or two. It is said in psychology in circles that those who do this, do so to re-inforce their manhood with themselves. So it's all psychological.
What do you say to your children when they ask you about their gay teacher who is "really nice"?
That mainly depends on what age my child is when this question is asked. But for the most part, I will try to point out to him what is said in The Quran. But this will depend on him being a certain age to understand and that I have laid a good Quranic foundation in our family life. I will also try to use logic to get him to see how unnatural and against GOD's design it is. However, one thing I will not leave out is that this gay teacher has a history that contributes to his outlook on life. We all have a history and it is due to these histories that we have the views and outlooks that we do.
I would liken their situation to one who is physically or mentally disabled in some fashion.
I would personally liken it to a mental disability.
However, should they choose to seek counsel, I would certainly be willing to listen and help them find the root of the problem.
I believe that this is a very noble approach. )
Although I did kiss this thread goodbye a couple of days ago, Tays presence and attempts to establish direction and some sense of root causes and possible solutions compelled me to add my two cents.
Salaam,
Damon. -
peace,
Does anyone in this forum intimately know any out of the closet homosexuals? just curious..... roll
I keep reading a lot of condemnation with no answers...what's the point of this discussion?
Damon, thanks for your opinion of a fix, bro. Too bad most systems do not support universal health care where people with this "psychological problem" can get help....What's going to come first "curing" homosexuality or constructing/reconstructing a society to be able to do so....
But this is completely my opinion. In my own deen, I have coined the phrase "fight the system, not the symptom." But that's just me. To each its own.
and just as a side note I disagree that homosexuality is an exclusive result of some type of life trauma. It could be any number of things. Particularly here in America, the causes could be countless....hormone induced food, environment, pop culture, broken families, industrialization, life trauma, peer pressure, genetic mutations caused from only the God knows......the list could go on and on...its a crazy system...
-
Peace Damon,
Thank you for the kindness.
You stated
Although I don't claim to be a Psychology Major, I believe that we can identify the problem. I personally believe that the problem is a Psychological Problem. Therefor, a Psychological Solution needs to be implemented.
I don't mean to split hairs nor be difficult, but quite the opposite. Calling the problem a psychological problem has not identified it, only categorized it. While I agree that homosexuality is psychological, and would add only that the physical presence of hormones amplifies this state of mind, I still do not think we have adequately identified the problem.
In other words, if I were to play devil's advocate here, and you said, "It's wrong to be gay", I would respond with, "How is it wrong?". See, the gay person has a good argument, particularly if he's not one of those few "virulently gay activist type in your face ultra PC liberal homosexuals", to quote brother Truth. The average gay person lives a normal life, works 9-5, vacations for 1.2 weeks a year, goes out to dinner once a week, etc. The only difference is that when he goes to bed there's a guy waiting for him. And for the most part, you and I don't see this at all.
So what is the problem? How is being gay "wrong"? We need to identify the concept without preconception. I may think it is disgusting but that doesn't make it wrong. I mean, I think putting mayonnaise on french fries is disgusting, but it's apparently the thing to do in Europe.
We need to break away from cultural biases and objectively identify the problem, if it in fact is a problem. Personally, I don't want to see my kids growing up in a society that is even more homosexually encouraging as it is today. I'd love nothing more than to nip this thing in the bud and erase it from my memories.
But that is my personal understanding. I've never been gay nor had homosexual close-calls. Who am I to judge them based on my biases. And I've seen the worst of it. Growing up, I was a club-kid at Limelight in NYC. Our favorite night was gay night, aka, Disco2000. I've seen some things that I will not tell my kids about. I've been hit on by homosexuals, groped, and oogled. I have a good friend that was molested by his uncle, another that was molested by his father. My point is, I have every reason through experience to have a prejudice, but I cannot formulate a solid theory as to why it's wrong.
Thus my reasons for leaving the judgement to God, because only God knows if anyone was ever born gay. I am not capable of making that assumption. But in my heart, or so I think, I feel there is definitely something wrong with it. Thus, my desire to teach my children to be sympathetic, but not encouraging, as we all have our vices and weaknesses.
One of the telling experiences I had was with a good friend/co-worker. We had one of those conversations where we both let our guard down and we just talked. I asked him about his lifestyle, and he told me, "Tay, if I had one wish, it would be that I wasn't gay. I wish I was attracted to women. You have no idea how hard it is to be gay and black in this society."
That's where I'll leave it.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaam,
Does anyone in this forum intimately know any out of the closet homosexuals? just curious..... roll
Yea I do. My friends sister who used to be crazy for me left for like a year and came back a lesbian. Well I can't say she was not from before, but she was definately acting heterosexual before she left. She's got a hot girlfriend too.
I personally think being attracted to the same sex has gradations for different individuals. Some will be on two extreme ends and others anywhere in-between .
Joe
-
Peace
As did he then create Killers, peadophiles, rapist, without given them a choice then. To blame those is to blame man for his existance. Look, i dont know why God is so specific in ALL the scriptures about this. In the Bible they are even supposed to stone them to death. What we can do, and rightly so, is accept peoples right to chose as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else. But what you demand, is that we accept the action itself. I cant, and i wont. God is our judge however, not us, not me, not you not anybody. God alone.
Regards
NoahKhi- Salam. We can judge in accordance with the scripture
We have sent down to you the SCRIPTURE, truthfully, in order TO JUDGE among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.
Thus we r 2 judge with the scripture. Dont we punish criminals? Similarly hs is a criminal act 2 society n must be punished. But this is not only so 4 hs but also 4 pre marital sex or sex out of wedlock or adultery. This is also a criminal act n ought 2 be punished. 2day ppl in the west dont view these 2 acts as crimnalistic anymore n thts the tragedy. The US i believe will be reinforcing these laws soon as creationists r becoming strong agaisn. GOD Bless!Peace
this is bending the word i think.
God punished the people of lot, nobody else. God tells us that for some reason its not looked light upon, but there are no order for us to deal with it, other than to show compassion otwards others.Yes we must use it to judge, and we can in 2 ways.
1.The places where God says there is a punishment, and tell us what it is.
2.Moral judgement, are what you or other peope do in alligenment with the scripture.God does never run out of words, if he wanted us to punish homosexuals, it would have been made clear in the Quran.
Yeah the US is a perfect example of what a state should NOT be. In theory its good, but in work, omg, dont get me started!
So you argue that it is zina. But i dont agree, its not because the whole act itself is condemned and shoudlt happen. Zina as an illigal relationship between 2 otherwise legal party's. I claim that regarding homosexuals we should rather apply the "You belive what you want to, and so will we".
Regards
Noah -
peace,
Does anyone in this forum intimately know any out of the closet homosexuals? just curious..... roll
raises hand
She broke my heart ?
-
Peace SalikahDc.
Yes i do. But i dont see it as my life assignment to , as you correctly put it, fight the symptom. And why would i want to make them feel bad and perhaps make them commit even greater sins, like blasphemy. No, it is between them and God, were just told not to do it. Its that simple. The Quran applys to those that freely wishes to let its moral teachings guide them.
regards
Noah -
ahoy hoy
As did he then create Killers, peadophiles, rapist, without given them a choice then. To blame those is to blame man for his existance.
im sorry but i completely disagree, your sexual orientation is not something you choose, homosexuals, transexuals, heamaphradites and heterosexual do not choose which gender they are attracted to, ask yourself, did you choose? but weather you kill somoene or not, rape someone or not, this is your own choice, a decision you make.
On another note, im not expecting people to accept the actions of homosexuals just to not carry some hatred towards them. I'm curious as to what people in this thread would do if they found their son/daugter to be homosexual..
toodles
the kebab monster
-
Hullo
Homoism is a choice, as is all of life,
left or right, up or down
front or behind.....(not literally)for one to judge another is for a sinner to judge a sinner,
let he without sin cast the 1st stone.
Altho homsexulity is forbidden in the Qu'ran so is a lot of other stuff...such as killing ppl...
but put under certain cirumstances even the most religious would put a man down... similally homosim is also putting a man down.......in certain circumstances rollIn conclusion altho alot say it is wrong, history has repeatedly shown us the majority is always wrong.
remember the nazis eh..eh...
n will young on pop idol wot were the majority thinking.Peace
Out
The B-A-T
-
Salaams Lote, All
You keep talking about phobia! What phobia? You want the normal society that reproduced you to accept such "unnatural" bahaviour? Why?
OK. What do you want us to do about homosexuals?
Regards,
It is not about WANT. It is about CAN! What can you do about them? Those people are supported by the system in those countries (maybe the one you are living in) and they are playing the victim part very well which you are falling for it! Look at you! You think that if you don't support them then you must be homophobic (what you kept labelling us here)!!!
-
Salaams Tay, All
One of the telling experiences I had was with a good friend/co-worker. We had one of those conversations where we both let our guard down and we just talked. I asked him about his lifestyle, and he told me, "Tay, if I had one wish, it would be that I wasn't gay. I wish I was attracted to women. You have no idea how hard it is to be gay and black in this society."
Again, playing the victim part!
-
In reply to the kebab monsters question
Wot wud i do if my son was gay
well i wud turn my son into my daughter
If u get my driftThe B-A-T
Interesting solution Mr Batman.
Do you mean that you would have a sex change operation performed to him?
-
Peace IdmKhizar,
Please explain how exactly homosexuality is a crime, and what punishment you would suggest for this crime.
Thanks,
TayKhi- HS just like pre marital or outside of wedlock sex is a crime. HS cozes sexually transmitted diseases 2 be spread from one person 2 another. It is not all guaranteed tht a person stays gay all his life. Tht person when he someday decides 2 marry will then pass on his aqcuired diseases 2 his wife without her knowledge n also 2 her children. Thus while at 1st look hs seems harmless it is most harmful 2 society. Its just like printing fake money. If just one person does it in small amounts it doesnt matter. However we all know it is a crime n u get punished if caught. HS is much more disastrous in the long run n if u know the statistiucs of the US the main coz of aids there is HS. HS shld be punished by exile. The ppl sld be sent forth from the community. They can build their own community if they want but shld not be part of the civilized community. GOD Bless!
-
HS cozes sexually transmitted diseases 2 be spread from one person 2 another. It is not all guaranteed tht a person stays gay all his life. Tht person when he someday decides 2 marry will then pass on his aqcuired diseases 2 his wife without her knowledge n also 2 her children. Thus while at 1st look hs seems harmless it is most harmful 2 society. Its just like printing fake money. If just one person does it in small amounts it doesnt matter. However we all know it is a crime n u get punished if caught. HS is much more disastrous in the long run n if u know the statistiucs of the US the main coz of aids there is HS. HS shld be punished by exile. The ppl sld be sent forth from the community. They can build their own community if they want but shld not be part of the civilized community. GOD Bless!
just nitpicking...
Sexually transmitted diseases can be spread by homosexual and heterosexual intercourse.
-
In reply to the kebab monsters question
Wot wud i do if my son was gay
well i wud turn my son into my daughter
If u get my driftThe B-A-T
Interesting solution Mr Batman.
Do you mean that you would have a sex change operation performed to him?
I would say revolutionary solution!
There is one documented case in America, where due to a mishap with a routine circumcision operation, a boy lost his penis.
The parents of the boy decided to raise him up as girl. So he was given relevant hormonal supplements and the boy "grew up" to be "girl" but in his later teenage years the masculinity reasserted itself. He then abandoned all the treatments and became a masculine again.
Therefore those who say homosexuality is due to the way you are brought up and other environmental factors are incorrect. Sexual orientation is rooted in biology of the individual...
Regards,
-
Khi- Did i tell u abt my personal homo experience? It's coz i wanted it 2 happen although i later realized tht i cld easily control it.
You are therefore BISEXUAL khizar like the pop singer Madona. She goes both ways but now she is in a heterosexual relationship...
Regards,
-
You are therefore BISEXUAL khizar like the pop singer Madona. She goes both ways but now she is in a heterosexual relationship...
Regards,Khi- No im not. I realized tht those feelings were only mentally made up. I dont feel anything sexually as regards 2 men now. They dont turn me on in any way. So im by no means bisexual. All this was mental garbage. GOD Bless!
-
Peace SalikahDC,
and just as a side note I disagree that homosexuality is an exclusive result of some type of life trauma. It could be any number of things. Particularly here in America, the causes could be countless....hormone induced food, environment, pop culture, broken families, industrialization, life trauma, peer pressure, genetic mutations caused from only the God knows......the list could go on and on...its a crazy system...I didn't mean to imply that homosexuality is an exclusive result of a traumatic experience. I was merely citing one of the type of experiences that can lead to it. I should have also noted that this young man was definately not gay as we were growing up. He was getting girls pregnant left and right before he got nabbed and went to the Penn. He grew up his entire life as a heterosexual and it took a traumatic experience for him to go in a different direction!! I'm sorry, but the whole born this way theory has no basis at all.
I have to issue this warning to some of you guys. There are some people here who keep repeating the notion that these people are born this way and that they cannot help but to be attracted to the same sex. Homosexuals are saying that GOD MADE A MISTAKE!! By CHOOSING the homosexual orientation, they are saying that GOD made a mistake. A Gay man is saying that GOD Mistakenly made him a man when He should have made him a woman. And a lesbian is saying the exact same thing. She's saying that GOD Mistakenly made her a woman when He should have made her a man. We hear it all the time. A lesbian will say that she's a man trapped inside of a woman's body, etc.
I expect those kinds of comments from them, but I feel as though that I have to seriously advise against those who say they believe in The Quran from repeating these sentiments. GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES!! Look at racism. Alot of that is deep rooted and starts in the home. I have seen Plenty of cases where racist people verbally said that they cannot help but to feel prejudice and hatred towards certains races and peoples. Surely we are not born racists are we? If we are, then GOD made another mistake when 4913 was revealed.
I have no choice but to turn this into a challenge. I have onced issued a challenge to some sunnis to show me where in The Quran can they find support for grown men to wed and have intercourse with 9 year old little girls. Well, they couldn't. So to those of you who insist that homosexuailty is not a choice and that they were born that way and that there is nothing wrong with this orientation, I ask......
Please show me just ONE verse where The Quran speaks of a sexual and/or marital relationship between the same sex in a positive or recommended light!!
ALL of the verses I have ever read concerning lawful relations have all dwelt on two things
1). Marriage, and....
2). Marriage between male and female.The Quran systematically and methodically describes a marriage as between a Rajil (Man) and a Nisaa'i (Woman) such as in 438 and 2187. I challenge anyone here to post just one verse for me that even remotely implies that marriage and sex between two men and two women is okay in GOD's eyes. Also, if GOD made them that way, then I ask you to explain Bi-sexuals to me too. That's got to be the worst mistake GOD has made to date.
Peace,
Damon. -
Salaams Damon, All
I have to issue this warning to some of you guys. There are some people here who keep repeating the notion that these people are born this way and that they cannot help but to be attracted to the same sex.
Oh, Yeah! Clearly! I see that they are repeatedly and systematically saying that. It seems that this is part of the "acceptance plan"!