homosexuality, the way forward?
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A friend of mine threw himself off of a 12 floor building because he did not want to live his life as a gay man. In his mind, the only CHOICE he had to counteract homosexuality was death. And no, there was nothing else wrong with him besides the fact that he had been gay since he was a child (there was always something a bit "feminine" with him) and hated not being able to live a life as a "normal" man.
Khi- Salam. Y was death his only choice? He cld have taken a medical treatment in the hospital if he had a hormone problem. If everything was ok n the testosterone was working fine then it is utterly impossible tht he be attracted 2 males. He cld have also taken anti sex stimualtion drugs or have his testis removed through surgery be4 killing himself. I think tht guy was mentally sick int he technical sense which imo is coz tht person obeyed the devil rather than GOD.
Before you assert that something is a choice, reverse roles and ask yourself the same question. Since I cannot even see myself attracted to women, I am going to turn this question completely around If it was in God's System to be homosexual, could I choose to be attracted to women?
Khi- Yes u probably cld coz the devil has been given certain power of influence. The mind is cpable of a lot of things. I know this from personal experience.
Solely off of my own inclination, I could not choose to be attracted to a woman just as many of you brothers in this forum probably could not choose to be attracted to a man.
Khi- As i said the mind is capable of doing countless things.
Sexual attraction may not be a choice, but our behavior is. If I had to engage in a sexual, monogamous relationship with a woman to be in harmony with God's system, I think that I would have the strength to do it (with a real struggle, I may add), but I doubt my sexuality would change.
Khi- If GOD planned tht 2 be then he wld have careted attraction btw similar partners. However this is not the law of nature even at the sub atomic level. Electrons attract protons which r opposite charges. However id like 2 mention one noteworthy pt here. Recedntly a Japanese scientist discovered tht when protons come into very close contact they instead of replling each other ATTRACT each other. Therefore they hold themselves 2gether in the nucleous. Ofcourse the neutrons also play a part but this was proved 2 be true. So applying this 2 humans maybe when we come very close 2 the same sex like sleeping close 2gether in the same bed we might ignore the sex of the person n start 2 feel some attraction. Maybe this is y when i isolated myself from the girls when i was a sunni n came 2 sit close 2 men i became attracted. This seems 2 make a lot of sense 2 me. Therefore perhaps many ppl say out of eypereince tht even male cousins shldnt sleep 2gether in one bed.
But, as a muslim who follows the Qur'an alone, I constantly struggle to accept and make God's will my own so, in this case, I would strive to force my personal sexual preferences to take a backseat (which is my current reality with abstinence until marriage/monogamy). But everyone may not strive to have that type of relationship with the God.
Khi- I believe tht 415-16 talk abt punishing HS couples n i believe the right punishment 4 them is exile.
The one thing that I am seeing from many people in here is the pushing of their own agendas and opinions at the expense of arrogantly asserting their perspectives as facts and, more disturbingly, attributing their opinion as God's will even though they have no knowledge of this being true I caution people from stating "God would do this" and "God wouldn't do that" because we have no concrete knowledge of this nor do we have concrete knowledge of what may be some causes of homosexuality in the first place. And if anyone asserts that I am a homo lover or whatever, you have missed the point of this post entirely.
Khi- I understood clearly from the Quran tht HS were strictly punished by GOD. The cities were tunred over n rocks showered on them. I believe theres a great lesson in there 4 us.
Everyone...lets take a moment for humility and have a constructive convo, NOT endless argueing advocating our own agendas and perceptions borderlining blasphemy (and this goes for everyone regardless of where you stand on the "biological" issue.)
Khi- I didnt. My views r n will GW always be based on the Quran Alone. GOD Bless!
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Salaam People,
A friend of mine threw himself off of a 12 floor building because he did not want to live his life as a gay man. In his mind, the only CHOICE he had to counteract homosexuality was death.
Please make careful note of what I put in bold in your quote. During the christmas season here in America, suicide rates go up substantially. In their minds they have no CHOICE but to commit suicide because they can't handle the stress of the extra workloads so that they can earn a christmas bonus and give their families a "Good Christmas". Others commit suicide because they cannot provide their families with a "Good Christmas". As Muslims, we all know that they choose to believe in and celebrate christmas. They choose to believe that Jesus' birthday is on Dec. 25 and that it is to be celebrated by putting up a big tree and fooling their children that a fat man in red breaks into their homes to leave lots of presents for them. They made a choice!! Some people are suffering because of this choice. I'm afraid it's the same thing for HS'.
And no, there was nothing else wrong with him besides the fact that he had been gay since he was a child (there was always something a bit "feminine" with him) and hated not being able to live a life as a "normal" man.
I too have seen this as I was growing up. As an adult I now realize that children are a product of their environments and upbringing. Just as it is my responsibilty as a parent to teach my children the difference between right and wrong, truth and falsehood, etc. It is also my responisibilty to teach them the difference between male and female and the proper ROLES each of them are meant to serve in GOD's overall plan and the proper BEHAVIOUR of each.
Sexual attraction may not be a choice, but our behavior is.
I believe that this is a very intelligent view. However, notice that you also admit that their behaviour is a choice that they make. The predatory behaviour of rapists, serial killers and pedophiles are also choices. If you still insist that the attraction of HS's is NOT a choice, then the attraction that pedophiles have for children is also not a choice. We cannot continue to pursue these double standards like this. What makes people tolerate one and not the other is that one is among consenting adults where as the other is total violation of peoples rights and safety. Either way, we cannot continue to straddle the fence. Pedophiles have an obvious attraction for children as opposed to adults JUST AS HS's have an obvious attraction for the same sex as opposed to the opposite sex.
The one thing that I am seeing from many people in here is the pushing of their own agendas and opinions at the expense of arrogantly asserting their perspectives as facts and, more disturbingly, attributing their opinion as God's will even though they have no knowledge of this being true
As a Very Firm believer in The Quran, I feel as though that my view on this matter is true according to GOD and according to The Quran!! Either we believe in it wholeheartedly or we don't believe in it at all. We cannot believe some parts and disbelieve others. This again would be straddling the fence.
I caution people from stating "God would do this" and "God wouldn't do that" because we have no concrete knowledge of this
He created seven universes in layers. YOU DO NOT SEE ANY IMPERFECTION IN THE CREATION BY THE MOST GRACIOUS. Keep looking; DO YOU SEE ANY FLAW?
Look again and again; your eyes will come back stumped and CONQUERED.
I repeat...GOD is flawless and perfect. He does not make mistakes. Hs's assert that GOD made a mistake when He gave them life in their particular genders.
The right way is clear from the wrong way.
One.
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Salaam Khizar, All
Peace IdmKhizar,
If the only crime is the spreading of STD's, then the solution is quite simple protection.
Peace,
TayKhi- Salam. Id say it's best 2 send them 2 exile so tht they can form there own community n see how far they can get. But they dont want tht. They deliberately wanna be in society. Evil pulls the good 2 itself n never leaves it alone until action is taken. GOD Bless!
Exactly. And I said the same thing on page 3 of this thread. The HS people are taking advantage of the normal society and they have no plans to leave it.
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Peace Damon and all,
Either we believe in it wholeheartedly or we don't believe in it at all. We cannot believe some parts and disbelieve others. This again would be straddling the fence.
Well said
What does your God-given "Reason" tells you about homosexuality from all the available scientific evidence and the testimony of millions of people?
I found it interesting that "reason" is put together with "scientific evidence", like 2 peas in a pod. Why not "quran"? Or even more so... why not just the God-given "Reason"? It is interesting to note that we will trust what the scientists tell us, more than God's message. And millions of people?... Here come the numbers again, it seems they so affect our "reasoning". After all, 1 Billion people can't be wrong... can they? roll
Peace
- They took their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god but He, be He glorified for what they set up
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I'm well aware of of what is being said by gay people all over the world. I'm just as aware that millions of pedophiles and rapists echo the same nonsense in their own personal testimonies!!
This is nonsensical argument. Vast majority of Paedophilia is result of childhood abuse. Rape - you think this about Sex is it? No. Rape is about powerplay and also of hatred. Hatred is learned behaviour...
Also, I'm not concerned with what Kinsey, Hite, Friday, Wolfe or any of the rest of them have to say.
Off course not, that will be educative for you and surely you are not interested in that!
I am concerned with what GOD has to say.
This is the Hadithist argument. As a hadithist would have said "I am not interested in anything else but Sahih hadiths of the Prophet and in following his traditions regardless what my reason tells me to do...
By continuing to post these people's names, YOU YOURSELF are ignoring the brilliant piece that Truth has posted by The Psychologist who treats this mental disorder.
Scientific truth is based on consensus. No way is Truth's article as far as I know have reached a consensus.
Yes they are!! They have already lied to themselves when they claim that they are born that way and now they are lying to others when they repeat it publicly.
What! millions of people are lying about homosexuality? Really?
Then this must be one of the most lied about thing in the history of the world, for all time!Actually my friend, you are ignoring the reality that this theory has no basis in The Quran. And yet, The Quran Itself totally condems this behaviour.
Let me say this in slowly again. NO SCRIPTURE ACCEPTS HOMOSEXUALITY. We have agreed on this!
Possible doesn't cut it my friend. Unless and Until scientific research can agree 100% for sure on this theory (Which I am certain will not happen) I'm afraid I am not moved by notions of possibility or hints possible basis. There is either concrete evidence or non-concrete evidence. Since this is only a theory (and I must add wishful thinking) it logically fits in the non-concrete basket.
Scientist can only make conclusion from the available data. Scientific Truth is not absolute and no scientist can claim absolute truth. So I am sure you have nothing to fear on 100% certainty of scientific truth.
Well,well now. This is quite a quote. My friend, if it's not about scripture, then why are you muslim? Why claim to be a believer in GOD and scripture at all?
It depends how you define Muslim. But I am positive that your definition is not something I can agree with because you have shown yourself to be a zelous puritan when it comes to Scripture and God. Instead of using Scripture as a GUIDE to understanding God, it has become for you ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and this Absolute Truth has become for you an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual progress.
I only persisted with my questionings because this is supposed to be A FREE MINDS FORUM but obiviously I was wrong on this matter. In future I shall limit my questions to less provocative stance. I am sorry I have upset you on this issue. But it was nothing personal Damon. It is just debate and you have made your position very clear to me. There is no point in me continuting this debate with so with due respect to you I bow out from this topic...
Just one last thing before I go. If SCRIPTURE undermines my human compassion for another human being, then I would rather go with my compassion and let God decide on my fate...
Regards,
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Peace Taj,
You asked,
Who is responsible for the HS thing? Or do you wish to blame it on God?
You are deflecting the questions I asked. You are passing judgement on them when you have no idea what it is like to walk in their shoes. Do you claim to know what is in their hearts? Yes or No?
Do you know what it is like to be gay?
Do you know what it is like to be black in America?It's easy for you to sit there and say someone is playing the victim. I would reflect on statements like that before passing them into cyberspace.
I choose not to pass this judgement because I wasn't blessed with the sort of insight that apparently you and others are blessed with. I leave their judgement to the only true judge.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace IdmKhizar,
You stated,
Id say it's best 2 send them 2 exile so tht they can form there own community n see how far they can get.
Great idea. A few questions though?
Where would this exile be?
Shall we include the autistic and the children with multiple sclerosis, crack addictions, and general disabilities in this camp, or should we set up another camp for each group that we are ostracizing?
Maybe we should have an obesity camp too.
And who decides which person is curable and which is not?
Who decides what point a person should reach before being allowed to re-enter society?
Do we need a special police force to infiltrate people's homes to make sure they are having sex with the opposite gender?
What do we do about masturbation? Should there be rules in place to make sure that people are masturbating to the right fantasies?Thanks,
Tay -
Phew!!!!
Looks like kebab monster sparked of a huge one! and has only posted a few threads whereas you lot have been having a 'royal rumble' (WWF wrestling where 30 men fight with each other) about it!
Calm down, put away you bold coloured capitals! It is not for us to judge people about what they do as regards to their sexual orientation, the clarification of this matter has not come into our society yet, when the people see that it is a clear wrong (that is if it is, I am not assuming it is, I am not taking any sides here!) then you can name-call and diss em!
But imho, i don't think people understand whether this is right or wrong, how can the Almighty punish people who did not understand that they were sinning, if there are signs that this is clearly wrong, show us proper statistics and hard evidence against this practice not silly arguments about how you feel and because you are attracted to the opposite sex, so should everybody. When something is clearly wrong, evil grows out of it, we should be able to see the consequences of 'sins'.
Peace, people, I just want peace, don't have a go on me, I don't want to take part in this Royal rumble!
Nural
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Peace everybody,
This is nonsensical argument. Vast majority of Paedophilia is result of childhood abuse. Rape - you think this about Sex is it? No. Rape is about powerplay and also of hatred. Hatred is learned behaviour...
I NEVER said that pedophilia NOR rape is about sex!! It goes to show that you do not pay attention or you are deliberatly misreading my posts. I said that Pedophilia as well as rape are results of mental depravity just like homosexuality is a result of a mental disorder. There, did you get it that time? You are still in denial of the fact that HS's, pedophiles and rapists have one thing in common....they have a mental sickness that needs to be treated.
Off course not, that will be educative for you and surely you are not interested in that!
No, I am not interested in your position which is that there are Scientists who know better than GOD.
This is the Hadithist argument. As a hadithist would have said "I am not interested in anything else but Sahih hadiths of the Prophet and in following his traditions regardless what my reason tells me to do...
Aahh, trying to divert the topic, heh? Hadithists and their logic concerning hadith has nothing to do with me and my logic concerning homosexualism. Comparing apples and oranges don't help you to reach the truth.
What! millions of people are lying about homosexuality? Really?
When they say that they don't have a choice and that they are born that way, yes they are lying.
Let me say this in slowly again. NO SCRIPTURE ACCEPTS HOMOSEXUALITY. We have agreed on this!
Then you, my friend, have no argument. As a believer of Quran and scripture, you no longer have anything to argue about. The only reason you will continue to plead your pro-hs case is if you do not fully believe and trust in The Quran which I will be getting to next.
Instead of using Scripture as a GUIDE to understanding God, it has become for you ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and this Absolute Truth has become for you an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual progress.
Here we get to the heart of the issue for you. I am well aware that you do not believe The Quran to be the absolute expression of GOD's will and intent, which I totally respect. That is your perogative. However, I cannot agree with your agenda of NOT believing in The Quran wholeheartedly and try to use The Quran to justify your stance of pro-gay. That is a dishonest endevour. But concerning your belief that The Quran is not the direct expression of GOD, I bring your attention to 1038....
This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
If you are in doubt to this assertion in The Quran, then the Quran itself issues a challenge to you concerning your doubt of this. They are in the next two verses after this one.
Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"
No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
And the main challenge to this view comes from 482.....
Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
But, as I said it is your right to have this view, I respect your opinion on that matter and I am not going to pass judgement on you because of your view. It's your GOD-given right to have that view.
I am sorry I have upset you on this issue. But it was nothing personal Damon.
My friend, I was NEVER upset on this issue and I have NEVER taken anything in this thread personally. Trust me bro.
Just one last thing before I go. If SCRIPTURE undermines my human compassion for another human being, then I would rather go with my compassion and let God decide on my fate...
Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?
GOD Alone/Quran Alone.
One.
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Peace all,
The issue of HS (homosexuals) has become far-stretched and beyond recognition. I personally believe that no one is BORN with it or GOD made them that way. It is the upbringing, surrounding, atmosphere, location, education/schooling, parental guidance and other aspects of life that provoke one to become as such. No two males or two females can serve the purpose of a parenthood regardless of adoptations, period.
Homosexuality is a mental disorder/disorientation and needs psycologocal/theraputic councelling.
I believe that Damon has well spoken on this issue and second his thoughts.
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Peace y'all,
I'm actually enjoying reading this thread, both for information and entertainment. D Some people are accusing others of hatred and taking offence, while they're hard at it! Some are accusing others of homophobia even if the ones accused show no signs of homophobia, do the accusers have homophobia phobia? lol
Peace, people, I just want peace, don't have a go on me, I don't want to take part in this Royal rumble!
It's too late now, you're already taking part... now get back in here! twisted winkOh btw... if any of you can't get enough of the homosexual thread, there's lots more from way before;
Same-sex relationships in Islam
Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
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Peace Zein,
Are you accusing the accusers??? Just kidding bro, you're funny and I like your style and you're one of my favourite. wink
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Salaams Tay, All
Peace Taj,
You asked,
Who is responsible for the HS thing? Or do you wish to blame it on God?
You are deflecting the questions I asked. You are passing judgement on them when you have no idea what it is like to walk in their shoes. Do you claim to know what is in their hearts? Yes or No?
Do you know what it is like to be gay?
Do you know what it is like to be black in America?It's easy for you to sit there and say someone is playing the victim. I would reflect on statements like that before passing them into cyberspace.
I choose not to pass this judgement because I wasn't blessed with the sort of insight that apparently you and others are blessed with. I leave their judgement to the only true judge.
Tay, what I'm saying is that someone should be responsible for the HS. Just tell me who! People would react as "victims" in many different situations. It is a very typical reaction of someone who does not want to claim responsibility for his actions. I am not judging your co-worker. I am blaming his attitude towards his situation. He says that his problem is that he is attracted to same sex individuals! But aren't emotions something that humans can control?
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Peace Zenje,
You stated
Oh btw... if any of you can't get enough of the homosexual thread, there's lots more from way before;
Same-sex relationships in Islam
Man, it was something to go back in time and read some of the posts from before I new you guys. I gotta say that the personalities have certainly developed from that point til now. It's nice to see.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Taj,
You stated
Tay, what I'm saying is that someone should be responsible for the HS.
Why, sister? Who is responsible for a child that is born so ill that it cannot survive without a respirator and an IV tube? How many kids are born into extreme suffering, never knowing the joy of what it's like to be a kid? Think of the autistic, the down syndromed, the physically handicapped, the diseased. Think of all the kids who lose their parents for multitudes of reasons.
Are there answers to these questions? Is there someone to blame? Someone to be punished?
This is all I'm saying. Not everything is black and white. There are aspects of life that we just don't understand, and probably never will, until such a time as God endows us with such knowledge. Until then, we need to accept that mutations/abnormalities/disorders are a fact of life.
In the animal kingdom, abnormalities are quickly discarded. The disabled simply starve and die. Lions, for instance, when they sense an abnormality with one of their own, will actually attack this cat until it leaves the pride, or until it dies. And without the pride, it will die shortly therafter.
But we are not animals. We are blessed with compassion and love. And with compassion should come sympathy, and with sympathy should come the need to help those that are less fortunate.
What I saw that day when I was speaking with my friend was not a pervert who cannot control himself, but a sad, lonely, human being, wondering why everyone around him was normal, and why he was not.
It is our duty to help people, not exile them.
In short, and just to be clear, I view homosexuality as an abnormality- something that may or may not be treatable. I don't think society should encourage this lifestyle, but we should certainly not ostracize them. I think it should be something that people just leave at home.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Taj,
Salaams Tay,All
You statedTay, what I'm saying is that someone should be responsible for the HS.
Why, sister? Who is responsible for a child that is born so ill that it cannot survive without a respirator and an IV tube? How many kids are born into extreme suffering, never knowing the joy of what it's like to be a kid? Think of the autistic, the down syndromed, the physically handicapped, the diseased. Think of all the kids who lose their parents for multitudes of reasons.
Are there answers to these questions? Is there someone to blame? Someone to be punished?
"Who is responsible for a child that is born so ill that it cannot survive without a respirator and an IV tube?"
Answer Could be Allah or could be human error and miscalculation.
"How many kids are born into extreme suffering, never knowing the joy of what it's like to be a kid?"
AnswerHuman greed.
"Think of the autistic, the down syndromed, the physically handicapped, the diseased."
Answer Could be Allah or could be human error and miscalculation.
Where humans are responsible then they should be blamed. Where Allah is responsible then that is Allah's plan.p.s.Sorry, but I will continue later, because I have to rush now.
Peace.
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Peace,
Tay likened the exile option which Khizar suggested as being like exiling people with Down's Syndrome and autism etc. However the problem of "consenting adults" which saves the homosexual bacon in one argument (ie. homsexuality being like pedophilia) now is unhelpful.
People with autism do not have a choice one way or another to change. See even if we put aside the causation of homosexuality - the matter at hand is - do homosexuals have a choice? The answer is a resounding YES. This is not about choice of whether they are attracted to men rather than women. This is about choice to act upon it or not. They have that choice and exercise that choice. Thus exile based on behavioural choice does make sense.
The other issue with 'homophobia' is that a 'homophobe' once meant someone who hated people who practise homosexuality. I suspect it now means someone who the homosexuals want to hate.
There is always two sides to these matters. The homosexuals are quick to point out what offends them about what heterosexually oriented people do towards and say about them and shout this until the message is accepted by sympathising apologists.
BUT what about the other side of the argument? Have they not got the right to say what offends them about the homosexual community? Can people not say that they are offended by the parading of flagrant homosexuality? Why don't homosexuals listen for a change and cease the debauchery?
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Hello Damon,
"..they have a mental sickness that needs to be treated..."
I could not help but replying to this. Homosexuals do not consider themselves that they have mental a sickness...and no please don't bring paedophiles and rapists into this. Homosexuality is consensual. Mutal Attraction, as opposed to paedophiles and rapists. Evidence are there that they are born in this way. Paedophiles and rapists are not born in this way. Their testimonies do not reflect this on the whole. But I am sure you will insist that they "CHOSE" to be like this and I respect your view though I do not agree with it.
No, I am not interested in your position which is that there are Scientists who know better than GOD.
Again this is absurd. Scientist don't know more than God. They can only rely on observational evidence to make a conclusion. Science is objective. But it seem you are not interested in objectivity or don't value science much. All I can say here is Knowledge leads to understanding, understanding leads to insight and it is this insight that leads to an enlightenment which allows us to abandon our childish of thinking and see the world in a more compassionate sense.
Aahh, trying to divert the topic, heh? Hadithists and their logic concerning hadith has nothing to do with me and my logic concerning homosexualism. Comparing apples and oranges don't help you to reach the truth.
No it was not a diversion but I have observed that hadithist continually bash you with endless hadiths instead of using their reason and you have been doing this with quranic verses.
When they say that they don't have a choice and that they are born that way, yes they are lying.
OK. All homosexuals are liars. I get you. Though I don't to believe you.
Then you, my friend, have no argument. As a believer of Quran and scripture, you no longer have anything to argue about. The only reason you will continue to plead your pro-hs case is if you do not fully believe and trust in The Quran which I will be getting to next.
What? No argument? Why not? Is this a FREE MINDS FORUM or NOT? If every argument has to conform to scripture then it is not FREE MINDS is it? You should have a banner headline saying. THIS IS A FREE-MINDS FORUM BUT ALL DEBATES HAS TO CONFORM TO SCRIPTURE. I for one would have not joined in the first place if this was the case. I am here to debate and discuss and perhaps learn something from each other. I can't use scripture to close my mind. Question everything Damon don't accept anything.
I cannot agree with your agenda of NOT believing in The Quran wholeheartedly and try to use The Quran to justify your stance of pro-gay.
Have I used any quranic verses to justify a "pro-gay" stance as you say? Show me one example? I know what is in every scripture regarding homosexuality. But is standing up for TOLERANCE, COMPASSION and UNDERSTANDING anyway pro-gay? I think not.
This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
Your belief is that these are very words of God. And I respect your belief. But I say to you because scripture came through a flawed human being it will always be A TRUTH, and not the ABSOLUTE TRUTH because God is beyond Reason and Language. If God is beyond Language and Reason then anything we can say about the divine will always be an "interpretation" in words of the "wordless" and "reasonless" Truth that is God. All the great sages, seers, meditators and mystics in the bygone ages of the world have come to this conclusion themselves. And I agree with them too...
If you are in doubt to this assertion in The Quran, then the Quran itself issues a challenge to you concerning your doubt of this. They are in the next two verses after this one.
I do not doubt the Divinity of Quran. Prophet Muhammad did enter the divine realm in a meditative trance. This is self-evident from the reading. But the reading itself is A TRUTH and not the WHOLE TRUTH because no human mind can grasp the infinity of the Divine let alone write it down with words.
Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"
No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
Lets think about this. If scripture claims to be authentic how can we be sure? Does mere claim to authenticity make it authentic? How does mere claim make something authentic in general?
And the main challenge to this view comes from 482.....
Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
And yes I have reflected on the Quran and it is a great spiritual work but it is still A TRUTH not the WHOLE truth. If you read the quranic verses on the revelations itself then you would have realised that the encounter with the Divine has more commonality with the experience of many sages, seers and mystics who have come and gone throughout the bygone ages of the world. Even meditators and mystics of today have similiar experiences when they enter the realm of the Divine.
My friend, I was NEVER upset on this issue and I have NEVER taken anything in this thread personally. Trust me bro.
I thought you did because you started writing in VERY LARGE THREATNING FONTS. You scared the pants of me mate !!!
-) just kidding -)Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?
My God is the God of COMPASSION. "He" starts his Scripture with these words
"In the name of the God who is MOST COMPASSIONATE..."
This is the principle I aply to my life. Human compassion is not easy Damon. To be compassionate requires a degree of dedication, knowledge and understanding. Human compassion needs to be nurtured and cultivated because it does not always comes easily to us...
Anyway this has been very interesting debate. I have said as much I can say on this matter. I hope I have been consistent in my views throughout in respects to Pro-Tolerance, Pro-compassion and Pro-understanding...
If your reply is interesting I may reply but for now Adios...
Regards,