homosexuality, the way forward?
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I'm well aware of of what is being said by gay people all over the world. I'm just as aware that millions of pedophiles and rapists echo the same nonsense in their own personal testimonies!!
This is nonsensical argument. Vast majority of Paedophilia is result of childhood abuse. Rape - you think this about Sex is it? No. Rape is about powerplay and also of hatred. Hatred is learned behaviour...
Also, I'm not concerned with what Kinsey, Hite, Friday, Wolfe or any of the rest of them have to say.
Off course not, that will be educative for you and surely you are not interested in that!
I am concerned with what GOD has to say.
This is the Hadithist argument. As a hadithist would have said "I am not interested in anything else but Sahih hadiths of the Prophet and in following his traditions regardless what my reason tells me to do...
By continuing to post these people's names, YOU YOURSELF are ignoring the brilliant piece that Truth has posted by The Psychologist who treats this mental disorder.
Scientific truth is based on consensus. No way is Truth's article as far as I know have reached a consensus.
Yes they are!! They have already lied to themselves when they claim that they are born that way and now they are lying to others when they repeat it publicly.
What! millions of people are lying about homosexuality? Really?
Then this must be one of the most lied about thing in the history of the world, for all time!Actually my friend, you are ignoring the reality that this theory has no basis in The Quran. And yet, The Quran Itself totally condems this behaviour.
Let me say this in slowly again. NO SCRIPTURE ACCEPTS HOMOSEXUALITY. We have agreed on this!
Possible doesn't cut it my friend. Unless and Until scientific research can agree 100% for sure on this theory (Which I am certain will not happen) I'm afraid I am not moved by notions of possibility or hints possible basis. There is either concrete evidence or non-concrete evidence. Since this is only a theory (and I must add wishful thinking) it logically fits in the non-concrete basket.
Scientist can only make conclusion from the available data. Scientific Truth is not absolute and no scientist can claim absolute truth. So I am sure you have nothing to fear on 100% certainty of scientific truth.
Well,well now. This is quite a quote. My friend, if it's not about scripture, then why are you muslim? Why claim to be a believer in GOD and scripture at all?
It depends how you define Muslim. But I am positive that your definition is not something I can agree with because you have shown yourself to be a zelous puritan when it comes to Scripture and God. Instead of using Scripture as a GUIDE to understanding God, it has become for you ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and this Absolute Truth has become for you an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual progress.
I only persisted with my questionings because this is supposed to be A FREE MINDS FORUM but obiviously I was wrong on this matter. In future I shall limit my questions to less provocative stance. I am sorry I have upset you on this issue. But it was nothing personal Damon. It is just debate and you have made your position very clear to me. There is no point in me continuting this debate with so with due respect to you I bow out from this topic...
Just one last thing before I go. If SCRIPTURE undermines my human compassion for another human being, then I would rather go with my compassion and let God decide on my fate...
Regards,
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Peace Taj,
You asked,
Who is responsible for the HS thing? Or do you wish to blame it on God?
You are deflecting the questions I asked. You are passing judgement on them when you have no idea what it is like to walk in their shoes. Do you claim to know what is in their hearts? Yes or No?
Do you know what it is like to be gay?
Do you know what it is like to be black in America?It's easy for you to sit there and say someone is playing the victim. I would reflect on statements like that before passing them into cyberspace.
I choose not to pass this judgement because I wasn't blessed with the sort of insight that apparently you and others are blessed with. I leave their judgement to the only true judge.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace IdmKhizar,
You stated,
Id say it's best 2 send them 2 exile so tht they can form there own community n see how far they can get.
Great idea. A few questions though?
Where would this exile be?
Shall we include the autistic and the children with multiple sclerosis, crack addictions, and general disabilities in this camp, or should we set up another camp for each group that we are ostracizing?
Maybe we should have an obesity camp too.
And who decides which person is curable and which is not?
Who decides what point a person should reach before being allowed to re-enter society?
Do we need a special police force to infiltrate people's homes to make sure they are having sex with the opposite gender?
What do we do about masturbation? Should there be rules in place to make sure that people are masturbating to the right fantasies?Thanks,
Tay -
Phew!!!!
Looks like kebab monster sparked of a huge one! and has only posted a few threads whereas you lot have been having a 'royal rumble' (WWF wrestling where 30 men fight with each other) about it!
Calm down, put away you bold coloured capitals! It is not for us to judge people about what they do as regards to their sexual orientation, the clarification of this matter has not come into our society yet, when the people see that it is a clear wrong (that is if it is, I am not assuming it is, I am not taking any sides here!) then you can name-call and diss em!
But imho, i don't think people understand whether this is right or wrong, how can the Almighty punish people who did not understand that they were sinning, if there are signs that this is clearly wrong, show us proper statistics and hard evidence against this practice not silly arguments about how you feel and because you are attracted to the opposite sex, so should everybody. When something is clearly wrong, evil grows out of it, we should be able to see the consequences of 'sins'.
Peace, people, I just want peace, don't have a go on me, I don't want to take part in this Royal rumble!
Nural
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Peace everybody,
This is nonsensical argument. Vast majority of Paedophilia is result of childhood abuse. Rape - you think this about Sex is it? No. Rape is about powerplay and also of hatred. Hatred is learned behaviour...
I NEVER said that pedophilia NOR rape is about sex!! It goes to show that you do not pay attention or you are deliberatly misreading my posts. I said that Pedophilia as well as rape are results of mental depravity just like homosexuality is a result of a mental disorder. There, did you get it that time? You are still in denial of the fact that HS's, pedophiles and rapists have one thing in common....they have a mental sickness that needs to be treated.
Off course not, that will be educative for you and surely you are not interested in that!
No, I am not interested in your position which is that there are Scientists who know better than GOD.
This is the Hadithist argument. As a hadithist would have said "I am not interested in anything else but Sahih hadiths of the Prophet and in following his traditions regardless what my reason tells me to do...
Aahh, trying to divert the topic, heh? Hadithists and their logic concerning hadith has nothing to do with me and my logic concerning homosexualism. Comparing apples and oranges don't help you to reach the truth.
What! millions of people are lying about homosexuality? Really?
When they say that they don't have a choice and that they are born that way, yes they are lying.
Let me say this in slowly again. NO SCRIPTURE ACCEPTS HOMOSEXUALITY. We have agreed on this!
Then you, my friend, have no argument. As a believer of Quran and scripture, you no longer have anything to argue about. The only reason you will continue to plead your pro-hs case is if you do not fully believe and trust in The Quran which I will be getting to next.
Instead of using Scripture as a GUIDE to understanding God, it has become for you ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and this Absolute Truth has become for you an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual progress.
Here we get to the heart of the issue for you. I am well aware that you do not believe The Quran to be the absolute expression of GOD's will and intent, which I totally respect. That is your perogative. However, I cannot agree with your agenda of NOT believing in The Quran wholeheartedly and try to use The Quran to justify your stance of pro-gay. That is a dishonest endevour. But concerning your belief that The Quran is not the direct expression of GOD, I bring your attention to 1038....
This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
If you are in doubt to this assertion in The Quran, then the Quran itself issues a challenge to you concerning your doubt of this. They are in the next two verses after this one.
Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"
No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
And the main challenge to this view comes from 482.....
Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
But, as I said it is your right to have this view, I respect your opinion on that matter and I am not going to pass judgement on you because of your view. It's your GOD-given right to have that view.
I am sorry I have upset you on this issue. But it was nothing personal Damon.
My friend, I was NEVER upset on this issue and I have NEVER taken anything in this thread personally. Trust me bro.
Just one last thing before I go. If SCRIPTURE undermines my human compassion for another human being, then I would rather go with my compassion and let God decide on my fate...
Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?
GOD Alone/Quran Alone.
One.
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Peace all,
The issue of HS (homosexuals) has become far-stretched and beyond recognition. I personally believe that no one is BORN with it or GOD made them that way. It is the upbringing, surrounding, atmosphere, location, education/schooling, parental guidance and other aspects of life that provoke one to become as such. No two males or two females can serve the purpose of a parenthood regardless of adoptations, period.
Homosexuality is a mental disorder/disorientation and needs psycologocal/theraputic councelling.
I believe that Damon has well spoken on this issue and second his thoughts.
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Peace y'all,
I'm actually enjoying reading this thread, both for information and entertainment. D Some people are accusing others of hatred and taking offence, while they're hard at it! Some are accusing others of homophobia even if the ones accused show no signs of homophobia, do the accusers have homophobia phobia? lol
Peace, people, I just want peace, don't have a go on me, I don't want to take part in this Royal rumble!
It's too late now, you're already taking part... now get back in here! twisted winkOh btw... if any of you can't get enough of the homosexual thread, there's lots more from way before;
Same-sex relationships in Islam
Islam, Homosexuality & the People of Lot
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Peace Zein,
Are you accusing the accusers??? Just kidding bro, you're funny and I like your style and you're one of my favourite. wink
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Salaams Tay, All
Peace Taj,
You asked,
Who is responsible for the HS thing? Or do you wish to blame it on God?
You are deflecting the questions I asked. You are passing judgement on them when you have no idea what it is like to walk in their shoes. Do you claim to know what is in their hearts? Yes or No?
Do you know what it is like to be gay?
Do you know what it is like to be black in America?It's easy for you to sit there and say someone is playing the victim. I would reflect on statements like that before passing them into cyberspace.
I choose not to pass this judgement because I wasn't blessed with the sort of insight that apparently you and others are blessed with. I leave their judgement to the only true judge.
Tay, what I'm saying is that someone should be responsible for the HS. Just tell me who! People would react as "victims" in many different situations. It is a very typical reaction of someone who does not want to claim responsibility for his actions. I am not judging your co-worker. I am blaming his attitude towards his situation. He says that his problem is that he is attracted to same sex individuals! But aren't emotions something that humans can control?
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Peace Zenje,
You stated
Oh btw... if any of you can't get enough of the homosexual thread, there's lots more from way before;
Same-sex relationships in Islam
Man, it was something to go back in time and read some of the posts from before I new you guys. I gotta say that the personalities have certainly developed from that point til now. It's nice to see.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Taj,
You stated
Tay, what I'm saying is that someone should be responsible for the HS.
Why, sister? Who is responsible for a child that is born so ill that it cannot survive without a respirator and an IV tube? How many kids are born into extreme suffering, never knowing the joy of what it's like to be a kid? Think of the autistic, the down syndromed, the physically handicapped, the diseased. Think of all the kids who lose their parents for multitudes of reasons.
Are there answers to these questions? Is there someone to blame? Someone to be punished?
This is all I'm saying. Not everything is black and white. There are aspects of life that we just don't understand, and probably never will, until such a time as God endows us with such knowledge. Until then, we need to accept that mutations/abnormalities/disorders are a fact of life.
In the animal kingdom, abnormalities are quickly discarded. The disabled simply starve and die. Lions, for instance, when they sense an abnormality with one of their own, will actually attack this cat until it leaves the pride, or until it dies. And without the pride, it will die shortly therafter.
But we are not animals. We are blessed with compassion and love. And with compassion should come sympathy, and with sympathy should come the need to help those that are less fortunate.
What I saw that day when I was speaking with my friend was not a pervert who cannot control himself, but a sad, lonely, human being, wondering why everyone around him was normal, and why he was not.
It is our duty to help people, not exile them.
In short, and just to be clear, I view homosexuality as an abnormality- something that may or may not be treatable. I don't think society should encourage this lifestyle, but we should certainly not ostracize them. I think it should be something that people just leave at home.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Taj,
Salaams Tay,All
You statedTay, what I'm saying is that someone should be responsible for the HS.
Why, sister? Who is responsible for a child that is born so ill that it cannot survive without a respirator and an IV tube? How many kids are born into extreme suffering, never knowing the joy of what it's like to be a kid? Think of the autistic, the down syndromed, the physically handicapped, the diseased. Think of all the kids who lose their parents for multitudes of reasons.
Are there answers to these questions? Is there someone to blame? Someone to be punished?
"Who is responsible for a child that is born so ill that it cannot survive without a respirator and an IV tube?"
Answer Could be Allah or could be human error and miscalculation.
"How many kids are born into extreme suffering, never knowing the joy of what it's like to be a kid?"
AnswerHuman greed.
"Think of the autistic, the down syndromed, the physically handicapped, the diseased."
Answer Could be Allah or could be human error and miscalculation.
Where humans are responsible then they should be blamed. Where Allah is responsible then that is Allah's plan.p.s.Sorry, but I will continue later, because I have to rush now.
Peace.
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Peace,
Tay likened the exile option which Khizar suggested as being like exiling people with Down's Syndrome and autism etc. However the problem of "consenting adults" which saves the homosexual bacon in one argument (ie. homsexuality being like pedophilia) now is unhelpful.
People with autism do not have a choice one way or another to change. See even if we put aside the causation of homosexuality - the matter at hand is - do homosexuals have a choice? The answer is a resounding YES. This is not about choice of whether they are attracted to men rather than women. This is about choice to act upon it or not. They have that choice and exercise that choice. Thus exile based on behavioural choice does make sense.
The other issue with 'homophobia' is that a 'homophobe' once meant someone who hated people who practise homosexuality. I suspect it now means someone who the homosexuals want to hate.
There is always two sides to these matters. The homosexuals are quick to point out what offends them about what heterosexually oriented people do towards and say about them and shout this until the message is accepted by sympathising apologists.
BUT what about the other side of the argument? Have they not got the right to say what offends them about the homosexual community? Can people not say that they are offended by the parading of flagrant homosexuality? Why don't homosexuals listen for a change and cease the debauchery?
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Hello Damon,
"..they have a mental sickness that needs to be treated..."
I could not help but replying to this. Homosexuals do not consider themselves that they have mental a sickness...and no please don't bring paedophiles and rapists into this. Homosexuality is consensual. Mutal Attraction, as opposed to paedophiles and rapists. Evidence are there that they are born in this way. Paedophiles and rapists are not born in this way. Their testimonies do not reflect this on the whole. But I am sure you will insist that they "CHOSE" to be like this and I respect your view though I do not agree with it.
No, I am not interested in your position which is that there are Scientists who know better than GOD.
Again this is absurd. Scientist don't know more than God. They can only rely on observational evidence to make a conclusion. Science is objective. But it seem you are not interested in objectivity or don't value science much. All I can say here is Knowledge leads to understanding, understanding leads to insight and it is this insight that leads to an enlightenment which allows us to abandon our childish of thinking and see the world in a more compassionate sense.
Aahh, trying to divert the topic, heh? Hadithists and their logic concerning hadith has nothing to do with me and my logic concerning homosexualism. Comparing apples and oranges don't help you to reach the truth.
No it was not a diversion but I have observed that hadithist continually bash you with endless hadiths instead of using their reason and you have been doing this with quranic verses.
When they say that they don't have a choice and that they are born that way, yes they are lying.
OK. All homosexuals are liars. I get you. Though I don't to believe you.
Then you, my friend, have no argument. As a believer of Quran and scripture, you no longer have anything to argue about. The only reason you will continue to plead your pro-hs case is if you do not fully believe and trust in The Quran which I will be getting to next.
What? No argument? Why not? Is this a FREE MINDS FORUM or NOT? If every argument has to conform to scripture then it is not FREE MINDS is it? You should have a banner headline saying. THIS IS A FREE-MINDS FORUM BUT ALL DEBATES HAS TO CONFORM TO SCRIPTURE. I for one would have not joined in the first place if this was the case. I am here to debate and discuss and perhaps learn something from each other. I can't use scripture to close my mind. Question everything Damon don't accept anything.
I cannot agree with your agenda of NOT believing in The Quran wholeheartedly and try to use The Quran to justify your stance of pro-gay.
Have I used any quranic verses to justify a "pro-gay" stance as you say? Show me one example? I know what is in every scripture regarding homosexuality. But is standing up for TOLERANCE, COMPASSION and UNDERSTANDING anyway pro-gay? I think not.
This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
Your belief is that these are very words of God. And I respect your belief. But I say to you because scripture came through a flawed human being it will always be A TRUTH, and not the ABSOLUTE TRUTH because God is beyond Reason and Language. If God is beyond Language and Reason then anything we can say about the divine will always be an "interpretation" in words of the "wordless" and "reasonless" Truth that is God. All the great sages, seers, meditators and mystics in the bygone ages of the world have come to this conclusion themselves. And I agree with them too...
If you are in doubt to this assertion in The Quran, then the Quran itself issues a challenge to you concerning your doubt of this. They are in the next two verses after this one.
I do not doubt the Divinity of Quran. Prophet Muhammad did enter the divine realm in a meditative trance. This is self-evident from the reading. But the reading itself is A TRUTH and not the WHOLE TRUTH because no human mind can grasp the infinity of the Divine let alone write it down with words.
Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"
No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
Lets think about this. If scripture claims to be authentic how can we be sure? Does mere claim to authenticity make it authentic? How does mere claim make something authentic in general?
And the main challenge to this view comes from 482.....
Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different.
And yes I have reflected on the Quran and it is a great spiritual work but it is still A TRUTH not the WHOLE truth. If you read the quranic verses on the revelations itself then you would have realised that the encounter with the Divine has more commonality with the experience of many sages, seers and mystics who have come and gone throughout the bygone ages of the world. Even meditators and mystics of today have similiar experiences when they enter the realm of the Divine.
My friend, I was NEVER upset on this issue and I have NEVER taken anything in this thread personally. Trust me bro.
I thought you did because you started writing in VERY LARGE THREATNING FONTS. You scared the pants of me mate !!!
-) just kidding -)Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?
My God is the God of COMPASSION. "He" starts his Scripture with these words
"In the name of the God who is MOST COMPASSIONATE..."
This is the principle I aply to my life. Human compassion is not easy Damon. To be compassionate requires a degree of dedication, knowledge and understanding. Human compassion needs to be nurtured and cultivated because it does not always comes easily to us...
Anyway this has been very interesting debate. I have said as much I can say on this matter. I hope I have been consistent in my views throughout in respects to Pro-Tolerance, Pro-compassion and Pro-understanding...
If your reply is interesting I may reply but for now Adios...
Regards,
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ahoy hoy
tay! someone has an open mind on this forum! maybe there is a god afterall......
If you think to yourself about your own sexual orientation (if you are heterosexual) you will realise that you are very much against the thought of homosexuals, the idea may seem repulsive. Similiarly for homosexuals the idea of heterosexuals 'engaging' seems foul. This is not something of personal choice, im not sure which sea creature it is, i think the seahorse, but that chooses its own sexual orientation. We are not like that. So how can you blame these people for being this way. Its beyond me to do it, its beyond me to condemn it, it may not seem natural but and im assuming most of you follow the quran, does it not say in the quran that there are many things in this world and in the afterlife that are beyond our comprehension and understanding.....
toodles
the kebab monster
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Khi- Salam. Y then do most ppl who engage in HS have acquired aids n the HIV virus. I know tht any uncontrolled sexual relationship can result in aids being tranferred. Thts y it ought 2 be organized n their ouigt 2 be a leagsl marriage contract be4 the couple goes into each other. Get it now?
Get it. I agree with you on this and the rest.
Just want to throw in some random info, HIV is a version of the simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) which is usually found in chimpanzees and other primates living in West Africa. SIV do not cause AIDS to apes and monkeys though. Only in humans does it cause AIDS. HIV is first recorded from sailors (IIRC) who had traveled to West Africa and then goes all over the world, spreading AIDS wherever they stop.
Considering what we know about how HIV is transmitted, I shudder at the thought of what might cause the jump from chimps to humans in the first place. It might be an act more appalling than what we are discussing in this thread. shock shock shock ?
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Peace all,
Just want to throw in a hopefully witty comment here,
"Just because something is natural does not make it morally right."
I see many posters committing the naturalistic fallacy here.
And to those who offer exile as a solution I thought the gays already did that? I mean, they do tend to live with themselves in self-made exiles, don't they?
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Considering what we know about how HIV is transmitted, I shudder at the thought of what might cause the jump from chimps to humans in the first place. It might be an act more appalling than what we are discussing in this thread. shock shock shock ?
It's probably not as lurid as what you are suggesting. It was once reported that Polio vaccine in Africa was cultured in the liver of green monkeys and the injection of thousands of humans allowed infection after a mutation.
Another theory is that these monkeys were used as food sources and it may have been contracted by eating of the monkeys.
The modern spread of AIDS / HIV has been tracked down to an index case. I remember there was an article about an English patient who died in the sixties of a mystery disease. The physician involved was clever and insightful enough to store some of the serum and this has tested HIV positive apparently, though this whole story has been doubted because of possible contamination of the specimens in the lab.
The spread into various countries has also been tracked quite meticulously. The spread into the USA happenned through Haiti and the homosexual scene importing the virus through gay promiscuity. I believe it was an airline steward who was responsible for bringing it into the US through San Francisco.
Some of this is from memory so you'll have to confirm and check for exact details.
Moreover in a little net research I've found that there are now theories that are different to these well known ones, of the AIDS epidemic starting in New York following the introduction of a new Hepatitis B vaccine first tested in gay males. There is even the theory that HIV itself does not cause AIDS!
http//www.biblebelievers.org.au/46a.htm
http//www.ourcivilisation.com/aids/hivexist/index.htm
Regards.
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peace All,
After reading brother Tay's post, I began thinking about what I would say. I think my main point would be that it is unatural. Thus I began thinking about examples of things that are unatural (go against our nature, or laws of nature etc) that are clearly beneficial for us. I never really came up with anything solid, thus can I request others to think about this and list them here...
thanks.
Wakas
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Peace Truth,
You stated,
Tay likened the exile option which Khizar suggested as being like exiling people with Down's Syndrome and autism etc. However the problem of "consenting adults" which saves the homosexual bacon in one argument (ie. homsexuality being like pedophilia) now is unhelpful.
People with autism do not have a choice one way or another to change.
Excellent point. The only problem is that Khizar did not distinguish practicing homosexuals from non-practicing. And yes, there are people whom are homosexual and choose not to partake in the physical aspect of it, though I dare not feign a knowledge of this statistic. However, I would venture to guess that the majority of homosexuals who do practice the physical aspect, do so in the privacy of their homes. Do we exile these people also? If so, how do we go about obtaining this information?
Thus exile based on behavioural choice does make sense.
That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it, although I disagree and see no such connection. Where do we draw the line on behavioral choices that don't mesh with societal norms?
Peace,
Tay
