Dying in a state of kufr and shirk
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Peace Makaveli.
Are these views of yours your own ideas? your conclusion from a study? or just following another source like all those who follow a certain source?There is no such thing as one's own ideas. As a believer in a one true God you should understand it. Avoiding information simply because it does not suit your castrated worldview (which by the way is not an ounce yours, but was inflicted upon you) is NOT a level of 'free will', which many believers like to parrot about, despite being limited in will or even straight deprived of it. It is a level of slavery. There is no such thing as "bad" or "negative" knowledge. My conclusion from a study. What would change happen I write a more sophisticated post?
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Peace Makaveli.
What have I avoided if I am asking you for the source/s of your views? Then we can check its sophistication for ourselves.
Or may be you do not want to share?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Sources of my views? Like sources that there is no person called Muhammad in the Quran? Or a source that Quran does not claim to be written in the language we now know as 'A-rabic'? Or that Ahmad is in fact the very same ? Or Ya Seen and other letters is a formula? Or a bunch of other high quality quranic knowledge I possess? No, because the question of yours was dualistic because you wanted a confirmation of my view (1) and a specific source (2). And in both instances it was erroneously formulated. There is no specific source as this is not based on any single source except my own persistence and research, which itself includes as the quranic research, so as the various sources of various traditions and historical background. Secondly, it is a wrong proposal from you because that is not a view per definition. A view is something you form within your cultural perception (i.w. worldview) to sustain a perspective on world description and mechanism. Something you acquire within the research is involuntary as I never wanted to acquire those conclusions in the first place nor was it my hypothesis I tested before getting to know. Because proposing hypotheses usually in fact leads to wishful (preconceived) conclusions hence early proposal of a hypothesis is in my opinion an unreliable research mechanism, which may often create biased results. Reveal you what? And why? What exactly will change?
You keep saying peace as it somehow means tranquility and a lack of bad intentions, yet I only see death because death is associated with stagnation. If anything you could test everything I said first hand and enhance your experience, especially since you are from a Christian background, which at least means you may start comparing the traditions. In the world nothing is stagnant and everything moves, even molecular reactions in the dead bodies and bones are not stagnant. Thus adhering to a single "book-fetishism" tradition you are into is death alike. Aren't you yourself a confirmation of most theses I proposed? A dweller who a) has no answers nor knowledge; b) lacks a grain of understanding in the book he believes to follow; c) who automatically parrots dogmas in case he can't explain something, like the God is merciful, as if it means anything in the context of our reality. And you ask me for evidence while you are incapable of looking outside of your own world? Again, formulate your question in a suitable manner and tell me, what exactly will change.
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I see.
You have researched, studied and have grasped "your truth" which confirms for you my "falsehood"?
Well ,I will have to remain ignorant to "your truth/s" since I have no choice because you will not share it .I guess that is now our parting of ways unless of course you let me have your source/s to check for myself.
Thank you anyway.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I see.
You have researched, studied and have grasped "your truth" which confirms for you my "falsehood"?
Well ,I will have to remain ignorant to "your truth/s" since I have no choice because you will not share it .That's fascinating how you interpreted my words and summarized everything I had to say in an simplified yet unfounded manner.
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Peace Makaveli.
Let me put it this way
My source is Qoran as we have it now( original Arabic text as far as I can deduce). What is/are your source/s from ?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
original Arabic text as far as I can deduce)
What is Arabic? When did this language originate? From which linguistic branch does it stem? Explain me its origin of language from at least second century BCE with all relevant ancient sources where term "Ayn-rabiyun" was used to indicate the nation AND the language.
What is original? Innate text, unaltered up to every letter? Mathematically preserved? Or something else? How do you explain original?
Explain me the grammar behind in a single case as opposite to in all other cases? Besides, what is double al- particle doing with letters Ayn (Eye) and Em (Ema) here?
You claim its mathematically preserved? So? What does it give us be it so, in case you fail to understand the meaning? What is the meaning of number twelve (12), nineteen (19), sixty-six (66), forty-five (45) and seven (7)? These are very important numbers in the Quran. What do they mean? Unless you know its meaning, what purpose does your "mathematical miracle" serve outside of mindless numerology?
Nothing.
Niche.
It's worthless.
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Peace Makaveli.
I understand. You have worked it out. I have not.
May be I will ?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I haven't figured all of it as of yet, I never said I did. But my current knowledge surpasses commonly accepted superstitions, that's for sure. And I was alone throughout this journey, which confirms my stance on organized research and organized anything. And my studies and overall spiritual journey was fruitful. So unless you can explain me the basics as per my previous post, which I guess you can't, what is your overall knowledge of the Quran or any other spiritual book for that matter worth? And these were the basics, a tip of an eisberg, so to speak. But perhaps not a principle (foundation).
So I invite others to this journey and find out for themselves. As long as your worldview is confined by commonly accepted superstitions and limited discoveries you will not understand anything outside of ideas you previously accepted. There is no single authority which has a right to impose meanings, that's what I was/am trying to say. I only invite to look beyond found discoveries and look further. And I strongly advise to take a heed of a following apocryphal saying "Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way".
And there is no such thing as hearsay, everything has a purpose. As such, if you do not understand the meaning behind kaaba circulation or the kaaba itself, which can only be acquired outside of the traditional understanding of the Quran, then that's the very evidence of ya'll being limited in thoughts and worldview. In fact, Quran alone is a very limited type of thinking to the point that to me it is sad and funny simultaneously.
There is also an incomplete New Age-inspired translation of the Qur'an available, written by a person with Messiah-complex, who also has a strange understanding of word "logic" and claims to exercise it to the highest extent, which itself is non-sense as it is easy to refute hundreds of his claims and see how limited he truely is, but nonetheless I recommend others to find and study his work, and see how biased and narrow it is. That being said, and it is a hint, the Qur'an does not require a "translation" as per common view, as its major words require separate chapters to explain and these will only and always be explained from the position of a psyche of the author of the translation. The psyche is a filter through which one understands the subjective and objective world around him.
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Thank you for the advice brother.
I believe there is a single most powerful and only authority(the Creator) that has defined everything and has the right to explain the meanings. But I agree with you this authority does not impose them on anyone.
I, in turn, invite to this single authority ,the source of the ultimate and true knowledge
If I am deluded it is due to my own fault for my limited thoughts and arrogance and if I am guided it is due to this authority.
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
My source is Qoran as we have it now( original Arabic text as far as I can deduce). What is/are your source/s from ?
Source??
How does it matter?Something is true (or false) because the source is X?
Is time relativity phenomenon true because the source is EINSTEIN?
or
Time relativity phenomenon is true because we can observe such phenomenon in Satellite orbiting the earth which has differential time period compared to a station on earth?Does something is FALSE because the source is Hadith?
And something is TRUE because the source is Quran? -
Sorry Jafar, we are talking about Shirk, not relativity or any other subject.
Shirk is connected to Qoran . Any other source is irrelevant on this subject because it will be off topic.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
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I believe there is a single most powerful and only authority(the Creator) that has defined everything and has the right to explain the meanings. But I agree with you this authority does not impose them on anyone.
I, in turn, invite to this single authority ,the source of the ultimate and true knowledge
If I am deluded it is due to my own fault for my limited thoughts and arrogance and if I am guided it is due to this authority.He will give out answer to those who ASKED THE QUESTION.
Ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find.That's why the Clerics, the Dictators, the Emir basically the Kufr a.k.a those who tried to cover something FORBID QUESTIONING, a blasphemer that's how they call those who dare to question. As once questioned the answer shall came, but the 'faith' might be lost.
So I invite others to this journey and find out for themselves. As long as your worldview is confined by commonly accepted superstitions and limited discoveries you will not understand anything outside of ideas you previously accepted. There is no single authority which has a right to impose meanings, that's what I was/am trying to say.
Agree
It's a journey that one need to take out for themselves..Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find.
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Peace Jafar.
I was talking about my source.
I do not use Tanakah or any Judastic sources.
By the way jafar, What does "worshiping other gods " mean?"
As far as I know why would GOD ask for worship if He is free of any need? Qoran does ask anyone to "worship" GOD!!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Correction brother Qoran does not ask anyone to "worship" GOD
Ibada to me is not worship.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Sorry I?ve missed alot.
Makaveli
I think not knowing is total different than knowing about something and intentionally ignoring or intentionally not willing to find out. Let me give an example. I know to get a good high school certificate grade I need to study xyz, I don?t know xyz but if I intentionally choose to not find out well I might be setting myself to failure. Let?s say I lived in another country where such a criteria was non-existent nor was it even valued. I?m not a total reject, I had no knowledge of such a system nor was it relevant so I couldn?t be labelled as incompetent or whatevs because of not knowing. Certain things are specific to time and place, and also knowledge.
According to my understanding of the Quran one is advised not to call others rejecters/disbelievers as we don?t know what clear evidences/truths they know or have grasped. Thus I believe ultimately God is the judge regardless of my views of their rightness or wrongness.
It?s not always a misery, for some ignorance is bliss. I think apathy on most things can be negative. I don?t understand your emphasis on astray, unless you?re going with traditionalist views that when a women leads, a society will crumble or some nonsense. It is assumed men will guide and lead however even when women do in today?s societies there are men who feel threatened and men who continue to adopt patriarchal ways without even realising. Be it because of culture, ignorance, laziness or just taking advantage of women knowingly or unknowingly or whatever other reason. Not saying all men are such but where I?m from they can sing and dance about women?s rights day in and out but traditional expectations still seem to be the norm.
I?ve never completely read a Quran-Only translation of Quran, some bits here and there but not completely. I don?t see them as criminals, it?s not an authority. At the end of the day one makes their own choices to adhere to a particular translation or not and we all know people are fallible so we?d be a little naive to rely on them wholly.
Anyway back to shirk, the idea of God being jealous is non-sense. Yes shirk can be viewed as only a religious issue (is it in other scriptures?) to me shirk isn?t about jealousy but about appropriate recognition of God.
Jafar
People have beliefs in particular sources be it true (or not) some things are not verifiable. As we don?t know everything or can?t find out everything and because we are social beings, it either suits our lifestyle or not. Submitting into something doesn?t necessarily mean we know about it inside and out. It just means something along the lines of we accept it, submit to it and do what we know/believe to be right. Sometimes blindly sometimes mindfully.
Peace.
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According to my understanding of the Quran one is advised not to call others rejecters/disbelievers as we don?t know what clear evidences/truths they know or have grasped.
Good attitude.
And whether the Quran really says that or not doesn't really matter.Thus I believe ultimately God is the judge regardless of my views of their rightness or wrongness.
Judge Not and thou shall not be judged.
Anyway back to shirk, the idea of God being jealous is non-sense.
God being jealous is definitely non-sense.
Yes shirk can be viewed as only a religious issue (is it in other scriptures?)
Yes, Tanakh and many other Judaistic sources.
Worshiping other gods other than YHVH is an unforgiven crime punishable by stoning.to me shirk isn?t about jealousy but about appropriate recognition of God.
God being angry due to not getting appropriate recognition is also non-sense.
God being angry is also non-sense.
Given everything that has happened, happening and shall happened it's 100% in accordance to His will and plan.People have beliefs in particular sources be it true (or not) some things are not verifiable. As we don?t know everything or can?t find out everything and because we are social beings, it either suits our lifestyle or not. Submitting into something doesn?t necessarily mean we know about it inside and out. It just means something along the lines of we accept it, submit to it and do what we know/believe to be right. Sometimes blindly sometimes mindfully.
Definitely, and it all happened to ALL human. Including you and me.
99% of human will FOLLOW/OBEY authority blindly regardless of what his/her conscience (or common sense) say. Only 1% among human has the guts to follow his / her own conscience and common sense.Should we then judge the Arabs for worshiping Hubal? the Egyptians for worshiping Ra? the Mesopotamian for worshiping Pazuzu? The Germans for worshiping Hitler?
Given 99% probability if YOU were born within such cultural context you will also do the same thing as they did.
And those remaining 1% will be oppressed, shunned and punished by the society.
Mr Jesus, Mr Abraham, Mr Socrates are among the famous figure of those 1%. -
I think not knowing is total different than knowing about something and intentionally ignoring or intentionally not willing to find out. Let me give an example. I know to get a good high school certificate grade I need to study xyz, I dont know xyz but if I intentionally choose to not find out well I might be setting myself to failure. Lets say I lived in another country where such a criteria was non-existent nor was it even valued. Im not a total reject, I had no knowledge of such a system nor was it relevant so I couldnt be labelled as incompetent or whatevs because of not knowing. Certain things are specific to time and place, and also knowledge.
Regardless of what 'xyz' is there for you, there is something each person intentionally rejects regardless of his cultural background or whether or not a doctrine or knowledge or teaching is proposed in his/her cultural background. It is not to say one is intentionally "rejecting". The Quran alone rejects the meaning of "disbelievers" for kafiirun because many of them are influenced by the "Quran Miracle" theory, so to claim one has to blindly believe is thus erreneous for them. How could God ask others to blindly believe and punish them fail they do so? So they make up the out-of-the-blue meaning for this word, saying someone "rejects" in case provided with "truth". Hence was my question, is someone considered to live/die in a state of kufr in case he/she was NOT introduced to such concepts? In any case, whatever they call this term, belief or reject is nowhere to be found in any Semitic language as far as I am concerned and both concepts are deluded, since each person is subject to rejection once he/she acquires initial education/backgroud/cultural values/morals. It is a matter of how far a "rejector" are you. Are you "open minded" (even though I dislike the term seeing how enforced it is in nowadays society), or how closed-minded i.e. convervative are you in areas like religion, family, M and F rights and obligations, child education et cetera. Most people do it autonomously, without giving it a thought when introduced to something, they simply "disagree", however, in reality they do not because they have not even understood the concept to begin with, let alone reject it. They simply feel it goes against their established values, therefore such information 'must be' automatically deemed as erreneous. It is done on the subconscious level. Even within the given culture there are contradictory concepts, like the age old one Kill Vs Murder. This is a great example of a phenomenon called double think when two or more bipolar views are simultaneously accepted or their meanings are taken into account despite evident contradiction because of other factors, such as a fear of being misunderstood by society, a fear of authority etc.
According to my understanding of the Quran one is advised not to call others rejecters/disbelievers as we dont know what clear evidences/truths they know or have grasped. Thus I believe ultimately God is the judge regardless of my views of their rightness or wrongness.
Nonetheless we can see hundreds of threads in this forum alone dedicated to the problem of "kufr", "shirk" and an overall "disbelieve" or "rejection", which is evident how people are interested in such concepts, and how they like to judge others based on their understanding. If anything, don't you think, reading and understanding the Quran, like any other spiritual guidance for that matter, then, in such a case, should be a personal activity and not something extended within general society?
Its not always a misery, for some ignorance is bliss. I think apathy on most things can be negative. I dont understand your emphasis on astray, unless youre going with traditionalist views that when a women leads, a society will crumble or some nonsense. It is assumed men will guide and lead however even when women do in todays societies there are men who feel threatened and men who continue to adopt patriarchal ways without even realising. Be it because of culture, ignorance, laziness or just taking advantage of women knowingly or unknowingly or whatever other reason. Not saying all men are such but where Im from they can sing and dance about womens rights day in and out but traditional expectations still seem to be the norm.
Astray is what 'they' believe women is subject to unless lead by a man, who is traditionally given "divine" authority over women. Women who accept this are what is usually labeled submissive, commonly accepted to be a coherent translation for muslim. Now, when you say "salem allaykum", do you mean "be a slave"? What do all (majority of?) other non-Semitic languages have for greeting?