Hafs or Warsh

[imrankhawaja]

simple yes or no @ GL

who calimed something ? you (yes)
who need history for their claim? You (yes)

burden of proof is on who ? you ( yes)
did u understand it all ? yes or no ( i m not sure)

[good_logic]

Peace Imran.
What do you mean claim?
I have provided you with my take on "purify your garments" of surah 74.- i.e the mathematical structure of Qoran- and given you tools to check it yourself.
You have to do the work. Or ignore completely .
You say there is no maths code/structure, arguing with old manuscripts without bringing the history/evidence of their origin.
That is where we are brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[reel]

Peace reel..
Unfortunately there are no recording of early memorisations to check this .
Also memorisation is learnt from the mushafs that are available at the time.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

No bro. I was taught certain chapters orally during bedtime. I was just an infant back then. Didn't know how to read and write.

[good_logic]

Peace reel.
I am not saying one needs to read and write to memorise Qoran.
I am saying we memorise what we are given to memorise. Or do you check it first?
So I am asking are the two memorisations of the two different arrangements of Qoran identical to the letter?
Also as you know, some memorise hafs and others memorise warsh .And we know for a fact these are not identical to the letter.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

So I am asking are the two memorisations of the two different arrangements of Qoran identical to the letter?

Peace, perhaps study more and like prayer post less until you know what you're talking about.

If talking about "man-made" verse arrangements there are ?many? while text is relatively same.

Example (no code else would show up on repeated verses 300+) or show us ?imaginary? code?

Current manuscript/s inconsistent extra alif in verse 1748 which is repeated verbatim in 299 ?

1748
150900200 201080 800200261 3020 130140500130 808003061 80301 106040091070650 60210301

150900200 201080 800200261 3020 13014050030 808003061 80301 106040091070650 60210301
259

While the oldest manuscripts are more consistent ?

1748 observe how strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of
259 observe how strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/48/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/QMvTz8xD/ch17v46-57.jpg

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/25/vers/9/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/vBR4z03H/ch25v8-20.jpg

[good_logic]

Peace Noon.
You say ,quote
While the oldest manuscripts are more consistent ?

Provide the original verse(174 that the prophet wrote when Qoran was being revealed, then we can be certain about the Alif?
Can t you find that copy, the one that should have come before all these old manuscripts?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 in current manuscript/s and should be...

1317 ... yaribu/striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1425 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1445 ... waarabn/and strike we of for you l-amthla/the examples
1674 so not tarib/thou strike ye of to god l-amthla/the examples
1748 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

259 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of
2435 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
2539 ... arabn/strike we of to him l-amthla/the examples
2943 and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind and not understand them except the knowing
5921 ... and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind perhaps they reflecting

[good_logic]

Peace Noon.
Again you are saying this, quote
NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 in current manuscript/s and should be...

You are not coming up with the history why the old manuscripts are the original.

After all if you are claiming letters were added to the current ones, then how was Qoran in your view preserved?

If on the other hand you are saying most or all the old manuscript have not got the added letter , then bring also the original verses written before the new arrangement to compare?

If you are saying they added letters and number verses in the new versions, the way the alphabet evolved and the numbering of verses were introduced , then how do you reconcile the preservation?

For you, the only way to make sure is by comparison of the before and after the arrangement verses are compared.

For me, Qoran s verses are saying to us GOD has preserved His letters, words chapter and arrangement (Jamaahu) with a mathematical structure. Impossible to change the original tablet/composition of the book.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[imrankhawaja]

peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

brother instead of telling math we need to educate brother GL something what he always avoid same happen with this of your post.

SEE the brackets GL use magnifer it will help.

example

book x 1st version God is One
book x 2nd version God is not one.

book y 1st version God is one
book y 2nd version God is one
book y 3 till 1000th version God is one.

@ GL now collect all the older versions and find us a difference ?
not those difference what we already discussed that never change the meanings as full.

now its your take. i m educating u as well as a brother. usually people who have interest in math have brain. but now i undertand coders are fake mathematicians thats y they are dumb to understand simple logic. and simple posts and simple questions.

[good_logic]

Peace Imran.
Give me a comparison with the copy of the prophet. Or a copy that existed during the prophet s time.
Then we can see the consistency of the old manuscripts?
This method is the only fool proof one if you discount the mathematical structure.
You say I cannot use a certain mushaf that is not "consistent" but you use one/ones that you have not provided history/evidence for that is /or comes from the original?
What is this logic then?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[imrankhawaja]

For me, Qoran s verses are saying to us GOD has preserved His letters, words chapter and arrangement (Jamaahu) with a mathematical structure. Impossible to change the original tablet/composition of the book.

Add more things
for you ( dnt know the method what need to apply)
for you ( method is not consistent)
for you (method and claims depend on secondary sources)
example if he never find out added verses from hadith he never make a claim !

more examples like spell noon as nwn and double multiple of 19 no answers so far?

lot more things but to be honest when u have lot of drawbacks in your theory how can u carry on debating things without solving these apparent issues ?
thats how you ll tell people about math of quran when u guys dnt even know what u did with math?

how you teach somebody when u by yourself dnt know WHAT to teach ?
but before teaching WHAT to teach we always need to know HOW to teach ? make sense

[good_logic]

Peace Imran.
You say, quote

Add more things
for you ( dnt know the method what need to apply)
for you ( method is not consistent)
for you (method and claims depend on secondary sources)
example if he never find out added verses from hadith he never make a claim

I say that I am satisfied with what I have checked. And I have given you the link/tools to do the same. If it is an issue for you ,it is not for me.

As for, what you say here, quote
more examples like spell noon as nwn and double multiple of 19 no answers so far?

You have missed my answer, here it again

GOD has decided to spell the only two letter N in Qoran as NUN and gave us the explanation why and the hints.
One of them in 2187
The other one in 681
And the hint is the subject of 2187 and 68 48
Dha Nun and Sahibi Al Hut . GOD could have easily said Jonah in both but did not Why?
Because of the logical explanation tokeep with the numerical structure of His book. As it happens both and have letters that fit it in with the structure locking the whole book .
Still have an issue?
Then give me your take on why did GOD spell the letter N in 2187 as NUN? And why in only the two verses GOD is calling Jonah other than his real name?

Because you will come back here saying N in 681 is spelt as N and it is consistent in all the old manuscripts and we will end up going in a circle because you are not providing the history/evidence linking to the original copy.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[imrankhawaja]

GOD has decided to spell the only two letter N in Qoran as NUN and gave us the explanation why

brilliant so u know what God decided yay
Did God personally told you about this ?

where r tbe explaination of why he decide to write in such a way ? evidence plz

[good_logic]

Peace Imran.
I have cited the verses for you. I have given you my take on it .
I have asked your take on it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[good_logic]

Brother Imran, I think the above should be enough,but let me elaborate more on 2187

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial (The only one in 681) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse as indication. Or it is coincidence to you?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[reel]

Peace reel.
I am not saying one needs to read and write to memorise Qoran.
I am saying we memorise what we are given to memorise. Or do you check it first?

You can check against other people's memorization of the same chapters.

So I am asking are the two memorisations of the two different arrangements of Qoran identical to the letter?
Also as you know, some memorise hafs and others memorise warsh .And we know for a fact these are not identical to the letter.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Oh, we all are aware of that, aren't we? Which one to go for can be understood through Quran's inbuilt anti corruption system. Hafs matches it. But not warsh.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Oh, we all are aware of that, aren't we? Which one to go for can be understood through Quran's inbuilt anti corruption system. Hafs matches it. But not warsh.

Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3182 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (with alif) to the devotees?

851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (no alif?) to the devotees?

likewise no proven anti-corruption system other than the preserved old manuscripts since they do all their nonsense without two verses.

[good_logic]

Peace reel.
I know what you say here is true to some extent, quote

You can check against other people's memorization of the same chapters.

But the important issue still remains, do the memorisation of new arrangement of Qoran matches the memorisation of the arrangement during the time of the prophet letter by letter, by word and verse by verse ? How can we check that?

One can argue it is very difficult to add/take away whole chapters but words and even small chapters can easily be added or taken away especially if the book is being collected by "experts" that are supposedly trusted and backed by the leaders.

If there is a trace of even a letter being different/changed then history of the collection needs checking thoroughly. How do we do that ? Can we do that?
This is when the "preservation" will also be questioned. How is the book been/being preserved?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Doesn't this

peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 in current manuscript/s and should be...

1317 ... yaribu/striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1425 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1445 ... waarabn/and strike we of for you l-amthla/the examples
1674 so not tarib/thou strike ye of to god l-amthla/the examples
1748 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

259 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of
2435 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
2539 ... arabn/strike we of to him l-amthla/the examples
2943 and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind and not understand them except the knowing
5921 ... and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind perhaps they reflecting

and this

Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3182 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (with alif) to the devotees

851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (no alif?) to the devotees

likewise no proven anti-corruption system other than the preserved old manuscripts since they do all their nonsense without two verses.

contradict what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an

159 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

4141 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
4142 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

5677 Indeed, it (is) surely, a Quran noble,
5678 In a Book well-guarded

7228 So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them,
and He has counted everything in numbers.

8521 Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
8522 In a Tablet, Guarded.

Allah knows best.

[Noon_waalqalami]

contradict what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an

peace, see oldest manuscripts l-amthla/the examples (no extra alif) same word

1317 l-amthla/the examples
1425 l-amthla/the examples
1445 l-amthla/the examples
1674 l-amthla/the examples
1748 l-amthla/the examples
259 l-amthla/the examples
2435 l-amthla/the examples
2539 l-amthla/the examples
2943 l-amthlu/the examples
5921 l-amthlu/the examples

these are different (no extra alif)

3182 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
4153 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
4160 fabiul'min/so in wrong/injustice
682 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
6131 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
11117 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
1661 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
2225 biul'min/in wrong/injustice

(with extra alif)
851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
2210 such in what have set forth hands your and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
4146 who work righteous of so for soul his/himself and who does evil so against it and not lord your biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
5029 not changed the speech with me and not I am biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/182/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/2StcgFjV/ch3v175-183.jpg

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/51/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/Nfv8ZCwy/ch8v48-59.jpg