Hafs or Warsh

imrankhawaja

For me, Qoran s verses are saying to us GOD has preserved His letters, words chapter and arrangement (Jamaahu) with a mathematical structure. Impossible to change the original tablet/composition of the book.

Add more things
for you ( dnt know the method what need to apply)
for you ( method is not consistent)
for you (method and claims depend on secondary sources)
example if he never find out added verses from hadith he never make a claim !

more examples like spell noon as nwn and double multiple of 19 no answers so far?

lot more things but to be honest when u have lot of drawbacks in your theory how can u carry on debating things without solving these apparent issues ?
thats how you ll tell people about math of quran when u guys dnt even know what u did with math?

how you teach somebody when u by yourself dnt know WHAT to teach ?
but before teaching WHAT to teach we always need to know HOW to teach ? make sense

good_logic

Peace Imran.
You say, quote

Add more things
for you ( dnt know the method what need to apply)
for you ( method is not consistent)
for you (method and claims depend on secondary sources)
example if he never find out added verses from hadith he never make a claim

I say that I am satisfied with what I have checked. And I have given you the link/tools to do the same. If it is an issue for you ,it is not for me.

As for, what you say here, quote
more examples like spell noon as nwn and double multiple of 19 no answers so far?

You have missed my answer, here it again

GOD has decided to spell the only two letter N in Qoran as NUN and gave us the explanation why and the hints.
One of them in 2187
The other one in 681
And the hint is the subject of 2187 and 68 48
Dha Nun and Sahibi Al Hut . GOD could have easily said Jonah in both but did not Why?
Because of the logical explanation tokeep with the numerical structure of His book. As it happens both and have letters that fit it in with the structure locking the whole book .
Still have an issue?
Then give me your take on why did GOD spell the letter N in 2187 as NUN? And why in only the two verses GOD is calling Jonah other than his real name?

Because you will come back here saying N in 681 is spelt as N and it is consistent in all the old manuscripts and we will end up going in a circle because you are not providing the history/evidence linking to the original copy.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

GOD has decided to spell the only two letter N in Qoran as NUN and gave us the explanation why

brilliant so u know what God decided yay
Did God personally told you about this ?

where r tbe explaination of why he decide to write in such a way ? evidence plz

good_logic

Peace Imran.
I have cited the verses for you. I have given you my take on it .
I have asked your take on it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Brother Imran, I think the above should be enough,but let me elaborate more on 2187

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial (The only one in 681) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse as indication. Or it is coincidence to you?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

reel

Peace reel.
I am not saying one needs to read and write to memorise Qoran.
I am saying we memorise what we are given to memorise. Or do you check it first?

You can check against other people's memorization of the same chapters.

So I am asking are the two memorisations of the two different arrangements of Qoran identical to the letter?
Also as you know, some memorise hafs and others memorise warsh .And we know for a fact these are not identical to the letter.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Oh, we all are aware of that, aren't we? Which one to go for can be understood through Quran's inbuilt anti corruption system. Hafs matches it. But not warsh.

Noon_waalqalami

Oh, we all are aware of that, aren't we? Which one to go for can be understood through Quran's inbuilt anti corruption system. Hafs matches it. But not warsh.

Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3182 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (with alif) to the devotees?

851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (no alif?) to the devotees?

likewise no proven anti-corruption system other than the preserved old manuscripts since they do all their nonsense without two verses.

good_logic

Peace reel.
I know what you say here is true to some extent, quote

You can check against other people's memorization of the same chapters.

But the important issue still remains, do the memorisation of new arrangement of Qoran matches the memorisation of the arrangement during the time of the prophet letter by letter, by word and verse by verse ? How can we check that?

One can argue it is very difficult to add/take away whole chapters but words and even small chapters can easily be added or taken away especially if the book is being collected by "experts" that are supposedly trusted and backed by the leaders.

If there is a trace of even a letter being different/changed then history of the collection needs checking thoroughly. How do we do that ? Can we do that?
This is when the "preservation" will also be questioned. How is the book been/being preserved?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

ibn_a

Salaam,

Doesn't this

peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 in current manuscript/s and should be...

1317 ... yaribu/striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1425 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1445 ... waarabn/and strike we of for you l-amthla/the examples
1674 so not tarib/thou strike ye of to god l-amthla/the examples
1748 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

259 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of
2435 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
2539 ... arabn/strike we of to him l-amthla/the examples
2943 and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind and not understand them except the knowing
5921 ... and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind perhaps they reflecting

and this

Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3182 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (with alif) to the devotees

851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (no alif?) to the devotees

likewise no proven anti-corruption system other than the preserved old manuscripts since they do all their nonsense without two verses.

contradict what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an

159 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

4141 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
4142 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

5677 Indeed, it (is) surely, a Quran noble,
5678 In a Book well-guarded

7228 So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them,
and He has counted everything in numbers.

8521 Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
8522 In a Tablet, Guarded.

Allah knows best.

Noon_waalqalami

contradict what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an

peace, see oldest manuscripts l-amthla/the examples (no extra alif) same word

1317 l-amthla/the examples
1425 l-amthla/the examples
1445 l-amthla/the examples
1674 l-amthla/the examples
1748 l-amthla/the examples
259 l-amthla/the examples
2435 l-amthla/the examples
2539 l-amthla/the examples
2943 l-amthlu/the examples
5921 l-amthlu/the examples

these are different (no extra alif)

3182 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
4153 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
4160 fabiul'min/so in wrong/injustice
682 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
6131 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
11117 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
1661 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
2225 biul'min/in wrong/injustice

(with extra alif)
851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
2210 such in what have set forth hands your and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
4146 who work righteous of so for soul his/himself and who does evil so against it and not lord your biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
5029 not changed the speech with me and not I am biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/182/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/2StcgFjV/ch3v175-183.jpg

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/51/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/Nfv8ZCwy/ch8v48-59.jpg

imrankhawaja

Peace Imran.
I have cited the verses for you. I have given you my take on it .
I have asked your take on it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

peace Gl

only problem is you never understand the questions.

even i asked here something else ?
i asked where is the evidence that God decided to write in such a way to hinting towards numbering ? did he personally told you or just ur wishfulthinking ?

if God claimed it he must claimed in clear cut way ? did U GET it what i am asking

good_logic

Peace Imran.
I have seen this, quote
i asked where is the evidence that God decided to write in such a way to hinting towards numbering ? did he personally told you or just ur wishfulthinking ?

"...Ahsa Kulla Chaiin Addadan".. i.e GOD counted the numbers ..
I repeat
Brother Imran, I think the above should be enough,but let me elaborate more on 2187

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial (The only one in 681) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse as indication. Or it is coincidence to you?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

ibn_a

Salaam,

peace, see oldest manuscripts l-amthla/the examples (no extra alif) same word

1317 l-amthla/the examples
1425 l-amthla/the examples
1445 l-amthla/the examples
1674 l-amthla/the examples
1748 l-amthla/the examples
259 l-amthla/the examples
2435 l-amthla/the examples
2539 l-amthla/the examples
2943 l-amthlu/the examples
5921 l-amthlu/the examples

these are different (no extra alif)

3182 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
4153 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
4160 fabiul'min/so in wrong/injustice
682 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
6131 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
11117 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
1661 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
2225 biul'min/in wrong/injustice

(with extra alif)
851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
2210 such in what have set forth hands your and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
4146 who work righteous of so for soul his/himself and who does evil so against it and not lord your biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
5029 not changed the speech with me and not I am biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/182/handschrift/163

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/51/handschrift/163

What is your theory, understanding on these differences?

imrankhawaja

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial (The only one in 681) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse as indication.

so your thinking has nothing to do with God decision isnt it ? the answer you gave is just your thinking not the reality.

BOLD so what ?

good_logic

Peace Imran.
Like I said to you. Accountability dictates that each of us check for themselves.
If you are happy with your lot(Your old manuscripts) ,it is your choice.
I am happy with mine(after checking for myself the mathematical structure).

As for the message, it is crystal clear in both our mushafs . So I wish you the best of works/morals brother.
This is the most important thing in Qoran.(Inna Akramakum inda Allah Atkaakum)
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

Peace, last post need to take a break...

2187

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial

681 noon wal-qalami/and the pen and what yasurna/they write being (i.e. writing)

Furthermore, does not spell N (noon) rather parse the word ?

2187 l-nuni/the noon being

the
N (noon)
being (i.e. so-called)

Likewise, see example ?

4917 yamunnna/favored being ... yamunnu/favored

What is your theory, understanding on these differences?

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

482 do so not they reflecting the qur?an/recitation and in case be from near/with other than the god surely found they of in it ikhtilafan/divergences of (single occurrence) kathiran/much of (3+)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/50/vers/29?handschrift=163

https//i.postimg.cc/nL6Rn8s7/ch50v14-34.jpg

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/50/vers/29?handschrift=32

https//i.postimg.cc/0j9CN996/ch50v26-43.jpg

good_logic

Peace Noon.
Common brother, the "being" word is made up here i
2187 l-nuni/the noon being

the
N (noon)
being (i.e. so-called)

So-called what? There is no word "being" in the verse. The word in the verse just means the letter N .
There is no relation to 4917 yamunnna/favored being ... yamunnu/favoured.

Enjoy your break brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

ibn_a

Salaam,

Peace, last post need to take a break...

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

482 do so not they reflecting the qur?an/recitation and in case be from near/with other than the god surely found they of in it ikhtilafan/divergences of (single occurrence) kathiran/much of (3+)

When you have time, please share what you consider as consistent "oldest manuscripts" that you are referring to.

Noon_waalqalami

When you have time, please share what you consider as consistent "oldest manuscripts" that you are referring to.

Peace gave numerous examples including ten consistently spelled not half spelled (same word).

1317 the examples
1425 the examples
1445 the examples
1674 the examples
1748 the examples
259 the examples
2435 the examples
2539 the examples
2943 the examples
5921 the examples

1317 l-amthla/the examples
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/17?handschrift=13
https//i.postimg.cc/j2r4kf5J/ch13v12-v23.jpg

1674 l-amthla/the examples
UNESCO ?Memory of the World? Program ?San?a Manuscripts CD First AH 1673-89
https//i.postimg.cc/SQCBN0Bm/ch16v73-89.jpg

1748 l-amthla/the examples
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/49?handschrift=107
https//i.postimg.cc/YqZJ2nh6/ch17v46-56.jpg

ibn_a

Salaam,

peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 in current manuscript/s and should be...

1317 ... yaribu/striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1425 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1445 ... waarabn/and strike we of for you l-amthla/the examples
1674 so not tarib/thou strike ye of to god l-amthla/the examples
1748 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

259 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of
2435 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
2539 ... arabn/strike we of to him l-amthla/the examples
2943 and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind and not understand them except the knowing
5921 ... and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind perhaps they reflecting

Some examples of differences in the spelling of words from what you call " consistent oldest manuscripts".

Example

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/218/handschrift/163
line 9 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/56/handschrift/163
line 3 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/73/handschrift/163
line 3 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/50?handschrift=107
line 9 - Mercy / Grace of God

-- Compare to

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/107?handschrift=163
line 21 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/53?handschrift=163
line 23-24 - Mercy / Grace of God

Example

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/38?handschrift=163
line 20-21 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/35/vers/43?handschrift=163
line 19-20 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/85?handschrift=163
line 19-20 ( the) Way (of) Allah

-- Compare to

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/13?handschrift=163
line 9 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/55?handschrift=163
line 3 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/33/vers/38?handschrift=107
last line ( the) Way (of) Allah

I think that the particular spelling of some words in the Quran we have today is not inconsistent, it is for a purpose and in time the purpose will be revealed by God.

Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya in the rest of the Quran.

There is no logique in saying that the scribes changed the spelling of the word Ibraheem only in chapter 2 and not in the rest of the Quran, they must have had a source for these particular spellings.

Cautious when saying "inconsistent" about the current manuscript especially when in condradiction with Quran veses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.