Hafs or Warsh

[imrankhawaja]

GOD has decided to spell the only two letter N in Qoran as NUN and gave us the explanation why

brilliant so u know what God decided yay
Did God personally told you about this ?

where r tbe explaination of why he decide to write in such a way ? evidence plz

[good_logic]

Peace Imran.
I have cited the verses for you. I have given you my take on it .
I have asked your take on it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[good_logic]

Brother Imran, I think the above should be enough,but let me elaborate more on 2187

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial (The only one in 681) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse as indication. Or it is coincidence to you?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[reel]

Peace reel.
I am not saying one needs to read and write to memorise Qoran.
I am saying we memorise what we are given to memorise. Or do you check it first?

You can check against other people's memorization of the same chapters.

So I am asking are the two memorisations of the two different arrangements of Qoran identical to the letter?
Also as you know, some memorise hafs and others memorise warsh .And we know for a fact these are not identical to the letter.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Oh, we all are aware of that, aren't we? Which one to go for can be understood through Quran's inbuilt anti corruption system. Hafs matches it. But not warsh.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Oh, we all are aware of that, aren't we? Which one to go for can be understood through Quran's inbuilt anti corruption system. Hafs matches it. But not warsh.

Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3182 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (with alif) to the devotees?

851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (no alif?) to the devotees?

likewise no proven anti-corruption system other than the preserved old manuscripts since they do all their nonsense without two verses.

[good_logic]

Peace reel.
I know what you say here is true to some extent, quote

You can check against other people's memorization of the same chapters.

But the important issue still remains, do the memorisation of new arrangement of Qoran matches the memorisation of the arrangement during the time of the prophet letter by letter, by word and verse by verse ? How can we check that?

One can argue it is very difficult to add/take away whole chapters but words and even small chapters can easily be added or taken away especially if the book is being collected by "experts" that are supposedly trusted and backed by the leaders.

If there is a trace of even a letter being different/changed then history of the collection needs checking thoroughly. How do we do that ? Can we do that?
This is when the "preservation" will also be questioned. How is the book been/being preserved?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Doesn't this

peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 in current manuscript/s and should be...

1317 ... yaribu/striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1425 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1445 ... waarabn/and strike we of for you l-amthla/the examples
1674 so not tarib/thou strike ye of to god l-amthla/the examples
1748 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

259 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of
2435 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
2539 ... arabn/strike we of to him l-amthla/the examples
2943 and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind and not understand them except the knowing
5921 ... and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind perhaps they reflecting

and this

Peace, not hafs/warsh rather compare oldest manuscripts to new (obvious consistency errors).

3182 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (with alif) to the devotees

851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness (no alif?) to the devotees

likewise no proven anti-corruption system other than the preserved old manuscripts since they do all their nonsense without two verses.

contradict what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an

159 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

4141 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
4142 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

5677 Indeed, it (is) surely, a Quran noble,
5678 In a Book well-guarded

7228 So as to make manifest that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses all that is with them,
and He has counted everything in numbers.

8521 Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
8522 In a Tablet, Guarded.

Allah knows best.

[Noon_waalqalami]

contradict what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an

peace, see oldest manuscripts l-amthla/the examples (no extra alif) same word

1317 l-amthla/the examples
1425 l-amthla/the examples
1445 l-amthla/the examples
1674 l-amthla/the examples
1748 l-amthla/the examples
259 l-amthla/the examples
2435 l-amthla/the examples
2539 l-amthla/the examples
2943 l-amthlu/the examples
5921 l-amthlu/the examples

these are different (no extra alif)

3182 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
4153 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
4160 fabiul'min/so in wrong/injustice
682 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
6131 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
11117 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
1661 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
2225 biul'min/in wrong/injustice

(with extra alif)
851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
2210 such in what have set forth hands your and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
4146 who work righteous of so for soul his/himself and who does evil so against it and not lord your biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
5029 not changed the speech with me and not I am biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/182/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/2StcgFjV/ch3v175-183.jpg

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/51/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/Nfv8ZCwy/ch8v48-59.jpg

[imrankhawaja]

Peace Imran.
I have cited the verses for you. I have given you my take on it .
I have asked your take on it?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

peace Gl

only problem is you never understand the questions.

even i asked here something else ?
i asked where is the evidence that God decided to write in such a way to hinting towards numbering ? did he personally told you or just ur wishfulthinking ?

if God claimed it he must claimed in clear cut way ? did U GET it what i am asking

[good_logic]

Peace Imran.
I have seen this, quote
i asked where is the evidence that God decided to write in such a way to hinting towards numbering ? did he personally told you or just ur wishfulthinking ?

"...Ahsa Kulla Chaiin Addadan".. i.e GOD counted the numbers ..
I repeat
Brother Imran, I think the above should be enough,but let me elaborate more on 2187

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial (The only one in 681) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse as indication. Or it is coincidence to you?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

peace, see oldest manuscripts l-amthla/the examples (no extra alif) same word

1317 l-amthla/the examples
1425 l-amthla/the examples
1445 l-amthla/the examples
1674 l-amthla/the examples
1748 l-amthla/the examples
259 l-amthla/the examples
2435 l-amthla/the examples
2539 l-amthla/the examples
2943 l-amthlu/the examples
5921 l-amthlu/the examples

these are different (no extra alif)

3182 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
4153 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
4160 fabiul'min/so in wrong/injustice
682 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
6131 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
11117 biul'min/in wrong/injustice
1661 biul'mihim/in wrong/injustice theirs
2225 biul'min/in wrong/injustice

(with extra alif)
851 such in what have set forth hands yours and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
2210 such in what have set forth hands your and that the god not is biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
4146 who work righteous of so for soul his/himself and who does evil so against it and not lord your biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?
5029 not changed the speech with me and not I am biallmin/in darkness to the devotees?

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/182/handschrift/163

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/51/handschrift/163

What is your theory, understanding on these differences?

[imrankhawaja]

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial (The only one in 681) also is spelt like the N in this verse. Count how many N s in it?
Yes brother GOD has put exactly 14 N s in that verse as indication.

so your thinking has nothing to do with God decision isnt it ? the answer you gave is just your thinking not the reality.

BOLD so what ?

[good_logic]

Peace Imran.
Like I said to you. Accountability dictates that each of us check for themselves.
If you are happy with your lot(Your old manuscripts) ,it is your choice.
I am happy with mine(after checking for myself the mathematical structure).

As for the message, it is crystal clear in both our mushafs . So I wish you the best of works/morals brother.
This is the most important thing in Qoran.(Inna Akramakum inda Allah Atkaakum)
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Peace, last post need to take a break...

2187

Why do I think this verse is indicating to us how to spell the letter N in 681?
There are 14 different initial letters used in Qoran, this verse is screaming N the initial

681 noon wal-qalami/and the pen and what yasurna/they write being (i.e. writing)

Furthermore, does not spell N (noon) rather parse the word ?

2187 l-nuni/the noon being

the
N (noon)
being (i.e. so-called)

Likewise, see example ?

4917 yamunnna/favored being ... yamunnu/favored

What is your theory, understanding on these differences?

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

482 do so not they reflecting the qur?an/recitation and in case be from near/with other than the god surely found they of in it ikhtilafan/divergences of (single occurrence) kathiran/much of (3+)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/50/vers/29?handschrift=163

https//i.postimg.cc/nL6Rn8s7/ch50v14-34.jpg

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/50/vers/29?handschrift=32

https//i.postimg.cc/0j9CN996/ch50v26-43.jpg

[good_logic]

Peace Noon.
Common brother, the "being" word is made up here i
2187 l-nuni/the noon being

the
N (noon)
being (i.e. so-called)

So-called what? There is no word "being" in the verse. The word in the verse just means the letter N .
There is no relation to 4917 yamunnna/favored being ... yamunnu/favoured.

Enjoy your break brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Peace, last post need to take a break...

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

482 do so not they reflecting the qur?an/recitation and in case be from near/with other than the god surely found they of in it ikhtilafan/divergences of (single occurrence) kathiran/much of (3+)

When you have time, please share what you consider as consistent "oldest manuscripts" that you are referring to.

[Noon_waalqalami]

When you have time, please share what you consider as consistent "oldest manuscripts" that you are referring to.

Peace gave numerous examples including ten consistently spelled not half spelled (same word).

1. 1317 the examples

2. 1425 the examples

3. 1445 the examples

4. 1674 the examples

5. 1748 the examples

6. 259 the examples

7. 2435 the examples

8. 2539 the examples

9. 2943 the examples

10. 5921 the examples

1317 l-amthla/the examples
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/17?handschrift=13
https//i.postimg.cc/j2r4kf5J/ch13v12-v23.jpg

1674 l-amthla/the examples
UNESCO ?Memory of the World? Program ?San?a Manuscripts CD First AH 1673-89
https//i.postimg.cc/SQCBN0Bm/ch16v73-89.jpg

1748 l-amthla/the examples
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/49?handschrift=107
https//i.postimg.cc/YqZJ2nh6/ch17v46-56.jpg

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

peace gl, your infatuation with nineteen is making you lose sense of basic logic.
it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

NOT consistent extra alif 130140500130 in current manuscript/s and should be...

1317 ... yaribu/striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1425 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
1445 ... waarabn/and strike we of for you l-amthla/the examples
1674 so not tarib/thou strike ye of to god l-amthla/the examples
1748 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of

These verses consistent in current manuscript/s (no extra alif) as in oldest manuscripts...

259 observe how arab/strike they of to you l-amthla/the examples so astray they of so not capable being path of
2435 ... wayaribu/and striketh the god l-amthla/the examples
2539 ... arabn/strike we of to him l-amthla/the examples
2943 and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind and not understand them except the knowing
5921 ... and those l-amthlu/the examples naribuh/we strike them to the humankind perhaps they reflecting

Some examples of differences in the spelling of words from what you call " consistent oldest manuscripts".

Example

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/218/handschrift/163
line 9 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/56/handschrift/163
line 3 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/73/handschrift/163
line 3 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/50?handschrift=107
line 9 - Mercy / Grace of God

-- Compare to

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/107?handschrift=163
line 21 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/53?handschrift=163
line 23-24 - Mercy / Grace of God

Example

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/38?handschrift=163
line 20-21 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/35/vers/43?handschrift=163
line 19-20 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/85?handschrift=163
line 19-20 ( the) Way (of) Allah

-- Compare to

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/13?handschrift=163
line 9 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/55?handschrift=163
line 3 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/33/vers/38?handschrift=107
last line ( the) Way (of) Allah

---

I think that the particular spelling of some words in the Quran we have today is not inconsistent, it is for a purpose and in time the purpose will be revealed by God.

Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya in the rest of the Quran.

There is no logique in saying that the scribes changed the spelling of the word Ibraheem only in chapter 2 and not in the rest of the Quran, they must have had a source for these particular spellings.

Cautious when saying "inconsistent" about the current manuscript especially when in condradiction with Quran veses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Some examples of differences in the spelling of words from what you call " consistent oldest manuscripts".

Example

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/218/handschrift/163
line 9 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/56/handschrift/163
line 3 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/73/handschrift/163
line 3 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/50?handschrift=107
line 9 - Mercy / Grace of God

-- Compare to

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/107?handschrift=163
line 21 - Mercy / Grace of God

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/53?handschrift=163
line 23-24 - Mercy / Grace of God

peace, same in ?new? manuscripts slight distinction verb & verbal noun from root raima/mercy

3938 ? biramatin/in mercy its shall they with-holders ramatihi/mercy his ?

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/38/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/ZKkw3BwB/ch39v33-44.jpg

Example

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/38?handschrift=163
line 20-21 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/35/vers/43?handschrift=163
line 19-20 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/85?handschrift=163
line 19-20 ( the) Way (of) Allah

-- Compare to

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/13?handschrift=163
line 9 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/55?handschrift=163
line 3 - Way (of) the former (people)

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/33/vers/38?handschrift=107
last line ( the) Way (of) Allah

again same in ?new? manuscripts slight nuance/distinction ?

1777 sunnata/manner from hence sent we of before you from messengers ours and not thou find lisunnatina/to manner its ours turning

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/77/handschrift/163

https//i.postimg.cc/Dzqvvbpr/ch17v67-79.jpg

Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya in the rest of the Quran.

likewise it was already shown to you numerous times that the oldest manuscripts "consistently" spelled abraham (same word/person) in all chapters and chapter 2 "inconsistency" appears ~200+ years afterwards and likewise the new verse arrangement separating 18 of ?29? initialed chapters into separate verses, etc.

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124?handschrift=163

https//i.postimg.cc/XYL4G0ch/ch2v121-132.jpg

1. 21 alif lam meem such the book not doubt in it guidance for the righteous
   https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/1?handschrift=116

2. 31 alif lam meem the god not deity except he the alive the sustainer
   https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/1/handschrift/116

3. 71 alif lam meem saad book descends to you so not beeth in breast your critical from it to thou warn with it and reminder to the believers
   https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/1/handschrift/163

4. 101 alif lam ra those signs the book the wise

5. 111 alif lam ra book are perfected signs/verses its furthermore explained from one who wise aware

6. 121 alif lam ra those signs the book the clear

7. 131 alif lam meem ra those signs the book and the which descends to you from lord your the truth and however more the humankind not believing

8. 141 alif lam ra book descends we it to you that thou evict the humankind from the darkness to the light by permission lord theirs to path the mighty the praiseworthy

9. 151 alif lam ra those signs the book and qur?an/recitation clear

10. 191 kaaf ha ya ain saad remembrance mercy lord your devotee his zakariyya
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/19/vers/1/handschrift/163

11. 201 ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an/recitation that thou agonize
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/163

12. 261 ta seen mim those signs the book the clear
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/26/vers/1/handschrift/163

13. 271 ta seen those signs the qur?an/recitation and book clear

14. 281 ta seen mim those signs the book the clear
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/28/vers/1?handschrift=107

15. 291 alif lam meem do calculate the humankind that left they of that speaketh they of believe we of and they not tested being
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/29/vers/1/handschrift/107

16. 301 alif lam meem ghalabat/triumph the romans
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/1/handschrift/107

17. 311 alif lam meem those signs the book the wise
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/31/vers/1/handschrift/107

18. 321 alif lam meem revelation the book not doubt in it from lord the world?s inhabitants
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/32/vers/1/handschrift/107

19. 361 ya seen and the qur?an/recitation the wise
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/36/vers/1/handschrift/107

20. 381 saad and the qur?an/recitation owner the reminder

21. 401 ha meem revelation the book from the god the mighty the knower
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/40/vers/1?handschrift=163

22. 411 ha meem revelation from the almighty the merciful
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/41/vers/1/handschrift/163

23. 421 ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1/handschrift/163

24. 431 ha meem and the book the clear
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/43/vers/1?handschrift=163

25. 441 ha meem and the book the clear
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/44/vers/1/handschrift/163

26. 451 ha meem revelation the book from the god the mighty the wise
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/45/vers/1/handschrift/163

27. 461 ha meem revelation the book from the god the mighty the wise
    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/46/vers/1/handschrift/163

28. 501 qaf and the qur?an/recitation the glorious

29. 681 noon wal-qalami/and the pen and what they write being

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

it's not about original (same word/phrases need to be consistent) see examples.

Oldest manuscripts are consistent while those ~200 years afterward contain inconsistencies.

• I gave you some examples of differences in spelling of words from what you consider" consistent oldest manuscripts"

• The particular spelling in current manuscript and in some older manuscripts is for a purpose and is not the result of inconsistency,
  otherwise this would condradict with Quran verses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.

likewise it was already shown to you numerous times that the oldest manuscripts "consistently" spelled abraham (same word/person) in all chapters and chapter 2 "inconsistency" appears ~200+ years afterwards and likewise the new verse arrangement separating 18 of 29 initialed chapters into separate verses, etc.

There is no logique in changing the spelling only in chapter 2 for the word Ibraheem,
and changing the arrangement of the initialed chapters only in 19 chapters and not in the rest of the 29 initialed chapters,
they must have had a source for these particular spellings and arrangement of verses.

Allah knows best.