Death Penalty for Murders
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But then, humans are inherantely ignorant and often go beyond limits. Thus in the law above, there is an upper limit, meaning you cannot for example kill all the family members of the killer for him killing one of your own. And evenmore, as underlined by marie, the god encourages us to forgive, for it is better
Hello someone,
You understand your scripture better than Saladin. And you are right scripture is a GUIDE and you can argue quran is a very good guide but for me it is still a GUIDE. To forgive is better. This is absolutely right. To able to forgive is to kill part of your self. To erase the memory of the pain,
To let go of the heart ache and be free from hate. For hate poisons something in our self, it tarnishes the very soul of our lives. To forgive is better. Can you see how European societies taken this quranic principle and made it their ethos of their civilisation?Regards,
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TAJ the problem I have with the death penalty is that sometimes people are covicted of crimes based on the evidence at the time, but latter when new evidence is uncovered they are proved innocent.
With a jail sentence, people who have been wrongly convicted can be cleared and released from jail. But with the death sentence such a mistake when uncovered can't not be undone.
Humans can make mistakes when judging people.... after all they are only human
So I feel those who are convicted of murder should be given rail sentences.
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Salaams Albion,
You are right! With DNA tests some interns were found innocent. Marie's post brings the other option mentioned in the Quran. My point is that one should be responsible for their actions if it was proven beyond doubt that it was theirs. Sometimes the killer would confess of a crime he did not even commit!! So investigation is very crucial. Also some murderers would choose the death penalty because they cannot live with the guilt! To them prison is far worse than death.
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Sorry I don't follow your question...mothers should not give birth what that go to do with gift of life from God?
if nobody has the right to take life except God then nobody,except God , has the right to give life either .
What is your point?
intellect not working , Lotetree ?
according to ur reasoning only God has the right to give life . so do u thnk mothers should not give life to children ? -
Thats your understanding of God from your study of scripture. But to me that is unacceptable and that is why scripture is A TRUTH for me.
scripture is a truth for you ?! scripture is a lie for you . which part of the scripture do u believe in ? you certainly dont believe in the words of the koran . what else is left in the koran to believe in ?
...This does not mean scripture is false but it is an interpretation of the wordless reality that is God.
wordless reality ? cant u be more straightforward ? u dont believe the koran to be the word of God ? why then do u call it a truth ?
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wordless reality ? cant u be more straightforward ? u dont believe the koran to be the word of God ? why then do u call it a truth ?
I suggest Saladin you study the history and the nature of the religious experience from all around the world and in light of this knowledge read Quran again, then perhaps you will understand something of the "infinity" of God that created you and then you would realise that God is not the Quran but it is a GUIDE to understanding God... you will also understand that scripture is not important, scripture should not be idolised, only GOD is important. Just saying yes I believe in God is pointless. You have to work towards understanding something of this God in your life and your Universe. Just by saying I believe in God will not get you anywhere. You have to use your reason, intuitions and imaginations to grasp something of the Divine truth inside yourself. And just by saying I believe Scritpure will not get you anywhere either. But you have to understand the message. And the message is clear to me GOD is the most important thing and I need nothing else... my goal is now to develop better understanding of this God that created me through reason, intuitions, imaginations, meditations, reflection and contemplation...
I hope this helps...
Regards,
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Peace LT n all,
Would killing the murderer bring the deceased back to life?
If not what is the purpose of killing the murderer?Khi- Lemme 1st ask u a qs. If somebodey brutally kills ur mother, sister, brothert or father wld u still think the same way tht death penalty shdnt be executed? Or wld u rather take the initiative 2 kill tht guy urself? In the Quran GOD did justice 2 both parties hence if a close person of urs is killed tht family is allowed/granted the right 2 get the murderer killed equally. Otherwise wheres the justice. Now 4 the most important pt. Death PEanlty is nothing but an illusion since GOD is the one who GIVES n TAKES LIFE. This is just a justification in the worldly sense. GOD can 4 eg cast forgiveness into the mind of the killed person's releatives so tht they wld let go off the killer anyway. So u see tht again it is entirely upoto GOD. U JUST CANNOT KILL ANYONE! NO, U CANNOT EVEN KILL URSELVES except if the time was already fixed by GOD. But i think it wld take some more time 4 u 2 understand this. GOD Bless!
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salam Lotetree.
wordless reality ? cant u be more straightforward ? u dont believe the koran to be the word of God ? why then do u call it a truth ?
I suggest Saladin you study the history and the nature of the religious experience from all around the world and in light of this knowledge read Quran again,...
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
then perhaps you will understand something of the "infinity" of God that created you and then you would realise that God is not the Quran but it is a GUIDE to understanding God...
u consider the koran a guide ?!!! but u just discarded the verses of the koran ?!!! be straighforward Lotetree . which part of the koran do u consider a guide and "a" "truth" .?
my goal is now to develop better understanding of this God that created me through reason, intuitions, imaginations, meditations, reflection and contemplation...
what understanding ? what do u wanna understand about God that the koran does not inform us of ? have u read the koran ? have u read the attributes of God in the koran . what else do u wanna understand about God ? u take the contradictng religious experience from all around the world to understand God , but discard the koran !!!
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Hello Saladin,
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
Come Saladin, don't despise reason. It was the Human Intellect that came to the notion of monotheistic God in the first place. Do you not recall Abraham?
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Hello Saladin,
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
Come Saladin, don't despise reason. It was the Human Intellect that came to the notion of monotheistic God in the first place. Do you not recall Abraham?
i said "most of the religious experience" , not all . because most prefer to follow their desires .
by the way u havent answerd my questions . -
Salaams Albion,
You are right! With DNA tests some interns were found innocent. Marie's post brings the other option mentioned in the Quran. My point is that one should be responsible for their actions if it was proven beyond doubt that it was theirs. Sometimes the killer would confess of a crime he did not even commit!! So investigation is very crucial. Also some murderers would choose the death penalty because they cannot live with the guilt! To them prison is far worse than death.
I agree with some points TAJ raised here, and thanks sis Marie for the verses.
As always, in our discussions of legal punishments we always forget to discuss the nature of the act itself, which is murder (homicide) in this case. There are many degrees of homicide. I'll raise a contrast;
Suppose we consider five cases (examples of which are taken from recent news)
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Terri Schiavo's husband who decides to stop life support for his wife.
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A US soldier who shot a terminally wounded Iraqi in the head, which the soldier said was mercy killing (the Iraqi would die anyway from critical wounds)
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A pensioner who shot dead a thief who was trying to break into his house
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A militant directly involved in a bomb attack (making the bomb, detonating the bomb etc.) that claims the life of a lot of people (the scale of Madrid/Bali attack)
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Someone who does not directly kill people but issues an order that result in a lot of murder (examples might include Milosevic, Rwandan Hutu leaders, Saddam, GWB, Osama)
Which of these cases deserve a Qisas punishment? Opinions please.
ps To LoteTree & Saladin Please take the off topic discussion to another thread. Let's stick with the murder punishment issue here.
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Peace Andya Primanda,
As always, in our discussions of legal punishments we always forget to discuss the nature of the act itself, which is murder (homicide) in this case. There are many degrees of homicide.
Which of these cases deserve a Qisas punishment? Opinions please.You are right, there is several cases of murder and we have to consider the motivations and the circumstances.
For me there is 3 types
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If one kills by mistake in a war, the duty could be a compensation paid to the victim's family unless they forgo it by way of charity....
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If one kills to protect his life.
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If one kills intentionally and unfairly
Only the third case deserve a Qisas punishment.
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Hello Saladin,
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
Come Saladin, don't despise reason. It was the Human Intellect that came to the notion of monotheistic God in the first place. Do you not recall Abraham?
i said "most of the religious experience" , not all . because most prefer to follow their desires. by the way u havent answerd my questions .
How can I answer your question Saladin? You want to murder the murderer because you believe that God commands you to do. You go ahead and do it. Other poeples understanding of scripture is far superior than yours like the forum member "Someone". To forgive is better. Contemplate these words Saladin (in the true spirit of the historical Saladin) and reflect on these words using your reason, intuitions and imaginations then perhaps you will realise the great spiritual truth of these very simple words To Forgive is better!
Regards,
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Are we all able to forgive an horrible crime?
We cannot answer this question without living this experience.
Should we decide for those who lost a member of their family (son daughter, mother, father...)?
If the majority adopts a law in Europe, USA, UK, Africa that doesn't make it just.
A judicial sytem where the individual is not actor is not good.
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Are we all able to forgive an horrible crime?
Off course not, we would then be God-like. The point here is one murder should not justify another murder. If we justify one murder with another murder then we are no better than the murderer.
If an individual harms your loved ones then your initial reaction would be to tear them apart using your bare hands but then that would be lowering yourself to the level of the murderer...
The second reason for me against the Death Penalty is that, as been already said, human justice is fallible as we are fallible.
Regards,
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?eace all
How about serial killers. If someone murdered one of my kin by accident i would be angered, but i hope i would be able to forgive it. If some brutal simpleton kills and keeps on killing, i would put him out of his misery instantly. Does that make me bad? No that makes me concerned about others, and he cannot have his life, the way he lifes it, at the expense of overybody else. And besids that, would it be more human to make a cage for him to spend the rest of his life? Even IF an insane persona like this starts to regret, are we then judging him to spend the rest of his life in misery, and then let God take care of him afterwards, plus why would we feed someone that does not pull his own weight in a good funactional society, independant if FIAT currency and the likes?
For this particular type of crime (lust killers) there is only one thing humane to do. And that is to get rid of them for the sake of the rest of us.But, as allready said. justice is letting the victims of the crime decide what should happen, nomatter the outcome. And if they want to apply eye for an eye, and not eye for a black hole in the ground and the key htrown away. So be it. God gave them this right.
Regards
Noah -
Peace,
Noah said
If some brutal simpleton kills and keeps on killing, i would put him out of his misery instantly. Does that make me bad?
I don't know, but if you mean you would kill him/her, if you do that here in Spain, you will be arrested, taken legal action against you, and, almost certainly, imprisoned. You won't be executed though, there is no death punishment in Spain.
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Are we all able to forgive an horrible crime?
Off course not, we would then be God-like. The point here is one murder should not justify another murder.
We cannot generalize or apply the same punishment because it depends on each case.
If we justify one murder with another murder then we are no better than the murderer.
We human, what we consider as a good judgement for an individual it is not a good/wise judgement for a community.
If an individual harms your loved ones then your initial reaction would be to tear them apart using your bare hands but then that would be lowering yourself to the level of the murderer...
The goal is to protect the community from the harm caused by an individual and dissuade the criminals.
Upon a human wisdom, there is a higher wisdom.
The second reason for me against the Death Penalty is that, as been already said, human justice is fallible as we are fallible.
Yes, but we cannot make a rule from the exception. We should do our better for a better judgement.
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If some brutal simpleton kills and keeps on killing, i would put him out of his misery instantly. Does that make me bad?
Simpleton? If they are simpleton are they responsible for their actions? And you would get rid of mentally deficient individuals? sounds fascist to me, like Nazies...
I don't know, but if you mean you would kill him/her, if you do that here in Spain, you will be arrested, taken legal action against you, and, almost certainly, imprisoned. You won't be executed though, there is no death punishment in Spain.
And good thing too. Humanity should go forward not backwards, we no longer have witch burnings! -)
Regards,
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We cannot generalize or apply the same punishment because it depends on each case.
Yes. True. But you accept it as a principle. Either you hold Life is sacred or you dont. If you don't accept life as sacred then Death Penalty is acceptable.
We human, what we consider as a good judgement for an individual it is not a good/wise judgement for a community.
Even as a community we should not lower ourselves to the level of the murderer...
The goal is to protect the community from the harm caused by an individual and dissuade the criminals.
You are saying Death Penalty is a deterent to criminals? That may or may be not the case but I am talking about the principle of life being sacred and that no HUMAN should take another human's life...
Upon a human wisdom, there is a higher wisdom.
But in a society of individuals with different beliefs we can't assume higher wisdom is at work at our human justices systems. We Humans make errors and these errors will result in deaths of innocent people. Death Penalty is final. Prison system is not...
Yes, but we cannot make a rule from the exception. We should do our better for a better judgement.
You accept it as a matter of principle. Like the European convention on human rights Right To Life. Life is Sacred. And yes we can make better and better judgements as humans but with Prison System as opposed to Death Penalty, we have a chance to rectify our mistakes...
Regards,