Death Penalty for Murders
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Hello Saladin,
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
Come Saladin, don't despise reason. It was the Human Intellect that came to the notion of monotheistic God in the first place. Do you not recall Abraham?
i said "most of the religious experience" , not all . because most prefer to follow their desires .
by the way u havent answerd my questions . -
Salaams Albion,
You are right! With DNA tests some interns were found innocent. Marie's post brings the other option mentioned in the Quran. My point is that one should be responsible for their actions if it was proven beyond doubt that it was theirs. Sometimes the killer would confess of a crime he did not even commit!! So investigation is very crucial. Also some murderers would choose the death penalty because they cannot live with the guilt! To them prison is far worse than death.
I agree with some points TAJ raised here, and thanks sis Marie for the verses.
As always, in our discussions of legal punishments we always forget to discuss the nature of the act itself, which is murder (homicide) in this case. There are many degrees of homicide. I'll raise a contrast;
Suppose we consider five cases (examples of which are taken from recent news)
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Terri Schiavo's husband who decides to stop life support for his wife.
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A US soldier who shot a terminally wounded Iraqi in the head, which the soldier said was mercy killing (the Iraqi would die anyway from critical wounds)
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A pensioner who shot dead a thief who was trying to break into his house
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A militant directly involved in a bomb attack (making the bomb, detonating the bomb etc.) that claims the life of a lot of people (the scale of Madrid/Bali attack)
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Someone who does not directly kill people but issues an order that result in a lot of murder (examples might include Milosevic, Rwandan Hutu leaders, Saddam, GWB, Osama)
Which of these cases deserve a Qisas punishment? Opinions please.
ps To LoteTree & Saladin Please take the off topic discussion to another thread. Let's stick with the murder punishment issue here.
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Peace Andya Primanda,
As always, in our discussions of legal punishments we always forget to discuss the nature of the act itself, which is murder (homicide) in this case. There are many degrees of homicide.
Which of these cases deserve a Qisas punishment? Opinions please.You are right, there is several cases of murder and we have to consider the motivations and the circumstances.
For me there is 3 types
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If one kills by mistake in a war, the duty could be a compensation paid to the victim's family unless they forgo it by way of charity....
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If one kills to protect his life.
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If one kills intentionally and unfairly
Only the third case deserve a Qisas punishment.
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Hello Saladin,
most of the religious experience from all over the world does not offer anymore than non sense such as trinity concepts and stone gods . the conclusions ppl arrive at when they prefer their ego and desire(what u call intellect or reason) over the revelations of God .
Come Saladin, don't despise reason. It was the Human Intellect that came to the notion of monotheistic God in the first place. Do you not recall Abraham?
i said "most of the religious experience" , not all . because most prefer to follow their desires. by the way u havent answerd my questions .
How can I answer your question Saladin? You want to murder the murderer because you believe that God commands you to do. You go ahead and do it. Other poeples understanding of scripture is far superior than yours like the forum member "Someone". To forgive is better. Contemplate these words Saladin (in the true spirit of the historical Saladin) and reflect on these words using your reason, intuitions and imaginations then perhaps you will realise the great spiritual truth of these very simple words To Forgive is better!
Regards,
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Are we all able to forgive an horrible crime?
We cannot answer this question without living this experience.
Should we decide for those who lost a member of their family (son daughter, mother, father...)?
If the majority adopts a law in Europe, USA, UK, Africa that doesn't make it just.
A judicial sytem where the individual is not actor is not good.
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Are we all able to forgive an horrible crime?
Off course not, we would then be God-like. The point here is one murder should not justify another murder. If we justify one murder with another murder then we are no better than the murderer.
If an individual harms your loved ones then your initial reaction would be to tear them apart using your bare hands but then that would be lowering yourself to the level of the murderer...
The second reason for me against the Death Penalty is that, as been already said, human justice is fallible as we are fallible.
Regards,
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?eace all
How about serial killers. If someone murdered one of my kin by accident i would be angered, but i hope i would be able to forgive it. If some brutal simpleton kills and keeps on killing, i would put him out of his misery instantly. Does that make me bad? No that makes me concerned about others, and he cannot have his life, the way he lifes it, at the expense of overybody else. And besids that, would it be more human to make a cage for him to spend the rest of his life? Even IF an insane persona like this starts to regret, are we then judging him to spend the rest of his life in misery, and then let God take care of him afterwards, plus why would we feed someone that does not pull his own weight in a good funactional society, independant if FIAT currency and the likes?
For this particular type of crime (lust killers) there is only one thing humane to do. And that is to get rid of them for the sake of the rest of us.But, as allready said. justice is letting the victims of the crime decide what should happen, nomatter the outcome. And if they want to apply eye for an eye, and not eye for a black hole in the ground and the key htrown away. So be it. God gave them this right.
Regards
Noah -
Peace,
Noah said
If some brutal simpleton kills and keeps on killing, i would put him out of his misery instantly. Does that make me bad?
I don't know, but if you mean you would kill him/her, if you do that here in Spain, you will be arrested, taken legal action against you, and, almost certainly, imprisoned. You won't be executed though, there is no death punishment in Spain.
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Are we all able to forgive an horrible crime?
Off course not, we would then be God-like. The point here is one murder should not justify another murder.
We cannot generalize or apply the same punishment because it depends on each case.
If we justify one murder with another murder then we are no better than the murderer.
We human, what we consider as a good judgement for an individual it is not a good/wise judgement for a community.
If an individual harms your loved ones then your initial reaction would be to tear them apart using your bare hands but then that would be lowering yourself to the level of the murderer...
The goal is to protect the community from the harm caused by an individual and dissuade the criminals.
Upon a human wisdom, there is a higher wisdom.
The second reason for me against the Death Penalty is that, as been already said, human justice is fallible as we are fallible.
Yes, but we cannot make a rule from the exception. We should do our better for a better judgement.
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If some brutal simpleton kills and keeps on killing, i would put him out of his misery instantly. Does that make me bad?
Simpleton? If they are simpleton are they responsible for their actions? And you would get rid of mentally deficient individuals? sounds fascist to me, like Nazies...
I don't know, but if you mean you would kill him/her, if you do that here in Spain, you will be arrested, taken legal action against you, and, almost certainly, imprisoned. You won't be executed though, there is no death punishment in Spain.
And good thing too. Humanity should go forward not backwards, we no longer have witch burnings! -)
Regards,
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We cannot generalize or apply the same punishment because it depends on each case.
Yes. True. But you accept it as a principle. Either you hold Life is sacred or you dont. If you don't accept life as sacred then Death Penalty is acceptable.
We human, what we consider as a good judgement for an individual it is not a good/wise judgement for a community.
Even as a community we should not lower ourselves to the level of the murderer...
The goal is to protect the community from the harm caused by an individual and dissuade the criminals.
You are saying Death Penalty is a deterent to criminals? That may or may be not the case but I am talking about the principle of life being sacred and that no HUMAN should take another human's life...
Upon a human wisdom, there is a higher wisdom.
But in a society of individuals with different beliefs we can't assume higher wisdom is at work at our human justices systems. We Humans make errors and these errors will result in deaths of innocent people. Death Penalty is final. Prison system is not...
Yes, but we cannot make a rule from the exception. We should do our better for a better judgement.
You accept it as a matter of principle. Like the European convention on human rights Right To Life. Life is Sacred. And yes we can make better and better judgements as humans but with Prison System as opposed to Death Penalty, we have a chance to rectify our mistakes...
Regards,
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Peace,
Lote Tree wrote
The second reason for me against the Death Penalty is that, as been already said, human justice is fallible as we are fallible.
Marie replied
Yes, but we cannot make a rule from the exception. We should do our better for a better judgement.
My comment
To keep the innocent safe seems a very important reason to withdraw death penalty from the countries where it is still in their law system.
I find other reasons important too, but just this one is enough in my opinion. To condemn to death an innocent by mistake wouldn't be seen as a simple 'exception' by him/her and his family, and shouldn't be seen like that by the society either, again in my opinion. -
Hello Elena,
My comment
To keep the innocent safe seems a very important reason to withdraw death penalty from the countries where it is still in their law system.
I find other reasons important too, but just this one is enough in my opinion. To condemn to death an innocent by mistake wouldn't be seen as a simple 'exception' by him/her and his family, and shouldn't be seen like that by the society either, again in my opinion.I agree on this.
In the UK, there has been numerous miscarriages of justices (some of them quite recently) which could have led to many innocent people being executed. If we can't agree on the principles perhaps this fact alone should prevent Death Penalty being used a punishment...Regards,
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I don't know, but if you mean you would kill him/her, if you do that here in Spain, you will be arrested, taken legal action against you, and, almost certainly, imprisoned. You won't be executed though, there is no death punishment in Spain.
And good thing too. Humanity should go forward not backwards, we no longer have witch burnings! -)
turn around Lotetree. letting murderers live is not the way forward .
peace . -
The goal is to protect the community from the harm caused by an individual and dissuade the criminals.
You are saying Death Penalty is a deterent to criminals? That may or may be not the case but I am talking about the principle of life being sacred and that no HUMAN should take another human's life...
peace Lotetree.
actually it is God who gives and takes life . we are only a tool .The Koran 6151 Say Come, I will recite unto you that which your
Lord hath made a sacred duty for you that ye
ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye
do good to parents, and that ye slay not your
children because of penury--We provide for you
and for them--and that ye draw not nigh to lewd
things whether open or concealed. And that ye
slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred,
save in the course of justice. This He hath
commanded you, in order that ye may discern. -
We cannot generalize or apply the same punishment because it depends on each case.
Yes. True. But you accept it as a principle. Either you hold Life is sacred or you dont.If you don't accept life as sacred then Death Penalty is acceptable.
We all agree the life is very sacred and this is why it should be protected.
I understand your point but you defend the the murderer and you forgot the victim..
Let us consider one case, when one kills intentionally and unfairly, the murderer doesn't consider the life of the victim sacred, can he consider his life sacred?.To keep the innocent safe seems a very important reason to withdraw death penalty .
When it remains the slightest doubt and a lack of irrefutable proof, it is evident that the death penalty is inconceivable and prohibited.
It is upon the justice to do her Job correctly because the defendent is innocent if the justice cannot provide the irrefutable proof if his guilt.
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We all agree the life is very sacred and this is why it should be protected.
I understand your point but you defend the the murderer and you forgot the victim..I am not defending the murderer. I am defending the principle that life is sacred.
Let us consider one case, when one kills intentionally and unfairly, the murderer doesn't consider the life of the victim sacred, can he consider his life sacred?.
Some individuals may not consider their life as sacred, suicidal individulas for instance. But as a society we either uphold the principle that life is sacred or we don't.
To keep the innocent safe seems a very important reason to withdraw death penalty .
It is upon the justice to do her Job correctly because the defendent is innocent if the justice cannot provide the irrefutable proof if his guilt.
Yes maire, sometimes irrefutable proof of guild is overturned by later evidences and this has happened in countless cases in the UK alone. Death Penalty would have taken those innocent lives...
Regards,
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peace
I am not defending the murderer. I am defending the principle that life is sacred.
You talk to much thats what you do, and you twisted my words out of proportion.
You ARE defending the killer, by defending that all life is sacred. But God allready said that all life is sacred EXCEPT in the cause of justice. The cause of justice, what do you think that might be?Regards
Noah -
Peace,
Just to see if I undertsand the point of not killing a murderer...Some would say that having a person rot in jail for their entire lives is more 'merciful' than killing the murderer?
If I had murdered someone and I was given the option to be executed immeditaly or rot in jail for the rest of my life, I would without hesitation take the first option (it is more merciful and more humane).
Also, when a person is killed for commiting murder, they are in-fact benefitting by paying the price of their crime on this Earth rather than having to pay for it with God in the Hearafter.
