Genetic evidence proves Muhammad and destroys alternative theories
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I guess most people here are familiar with these alternative theories about ''Muhammad'' being an adjective or whatnot. Well I am able to officialy put an end to all those never ending theories. This is one of the biggest miracles ever and can itself lend credibility to the whole quranic narrative as it it can safely demonstrate not only the existence of both Muhamamd and Abraham but also the link between them ! My analysis relies upon real genetic data about the Y-chromosome and doubters would have a hard time refuting it. I shall present it sometime in the future if God wills it. For now I will keep it very short and tell you that there is a genetic line represented by various different genealogies claiming direct descent from Ali. This line has a TMRCA (Time for Most Recent Common Ancestor) corresponding with the timeframe we're expecting which is some 1500 years ago and also shares a 3500 or so years common ancestor with a very peculiar line found at a rate of about 0.5% of ashkenazi Jews and that is the only clearly arabian line found among the Jews ! It is complicated to understand for people who are not familiar with population genetics but I'll try to lay out every point in my full-on analysis so everyone could understand how big it is. This is the beginning of a new era, the truth is about to be revealed !
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There are all kinds of alternative theories. There are some (Hizbollah) who claim that the Quran is earlier than what is traditionnally accepted as the timeframe of revelation. There are some (''Man of Faith'' and his followers Makaveli et al.) who say that the arabic today is a complete creation of the clergy and thus that all those prophets didn't really exist. The genetic evidence shows that the timeframe is correct and that Ali really did exist. It shows that Muhammad is really descended from Abraham, which is the biggest miracle because it would be impossible for a 6th-7th century man to know his direct paternal ancestor going back more than 2000 years at a time when genealogical records were not possible. This shows that the Quran is really from God and to date this is the greatest proof we have and trust me it is a very solid proof.
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Hold on a minutes (Or few thousands years in the past)!
How on earth is one going to check the descendants of someone up to Abraham?
One may have records up to certain kings and queens from the last millennium, but where are the records before that?Is one going to be really accurate?
For me I need something I can check accurately. I am not sure that is possible|?Just look at the genealogy of the bible!
Or have they extracted DNA from Abraham and DNA from Mohammed and checked them?
I am afraid it is not going to be conclusive for some folks.
Me I already checked Qoran. So it is easy for me to believe Qoran.
GOD bless you .
Peace. -
Hold on a minutes (Or few thousands years in the past)!
How on earth is one going to check the descendants of someone up to Abraham?
One may have records up to certain kings and queens from the last millennium, but where are the records before that?Is one going to be really accurate?
For me I need something I can check accurately. I am not sure that is possible|?Just look at the genealogy of the bible!
Or have they extracted DNA from Abraham and DNA from Mohammed and checked them?
I am afraid it is not going to be conclusive for some folks.
Me I already checked Qoran. So it is easy for me to believe Qoran.
GOD bless you .
Peace.Peace, it is more complicated than that this is why I tried to keep it simple for now. What you have to understand is that in popualtion genetics there is a branch called haploid genetics which deals with that portion of the genome that is transmitted in a linear fashion. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is transmitted from mother to child while the Y-chromosome (Y-DNA) is transmitted from father to son. Throughout time mutations accumulate and enable to us to reconstruct the phylogenetic tree of a given population. Many of the people claiming descent from the prophet's clan have no means to substantiate these claims and belong to all kind of divergent Y-DNA lines. However, there is one particular line called J-L859 which is without any doubt the signature of Muhammad's tribe due to many reasons, namely the nature of its widespread and quick expansion as well as the time of expansion. The fact that it shares a common ancestor with a line found only among the Jews and one single Armenian individual so far shows that this cannot be a coincidence for obvious and precise reasons...
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Peace Lost.
Thanks for the info.
Qoran says everything is recorded. With the technology of now and the future, the past is never lost.
"Fa Ayna Tadhhaboon". Indeed All will be shown up.
GOD bless you
Peace. -
Questions
- Have you got a DNA sample of Muhammad? Which Muhammad is it?
- Have you got a DNA sample of Abraham? Which Abraham is it?
I myself will not be surprised if Abraham (or anybody else who lived during Abraham's period) are one among my million or billion of ancestors.
Due to 4000 years of time differences... which roughly translate to 400 x 3 = 1200 generations.
Thus being among "Abraham's descendant" is nothing special...As reference
A genetic research in China has proven that there are approximately 120 millions of Kublai Khan descendant living in China today.
Or in other words, there are 120 millions people living in China today who has Kublai Khan as among their ancestors.
And Kublai Khan was living in 1200 AD, merely 800 years ago. -
Peace
This is undoubtably the biggest taurus excretus I have ever seen in this forum rotfl
Don't speak about that upon which you do not have any knowledge, bet you don't even know what an SNP is. So if I were you, I would refrain from saying anything. But I knew that most people won't understand much, you need at least some background in population genetics in order to be able to grasp something. Trust me, this is no bullshit my friend so please stop this kind of behavior and ask questions instead of bashing something that you don't understand at all. This isn't some kind of pseudo-science if you want to know.
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Questions
- Have you got a DNA sample of Muhammad? Which Muhammad is it?
- Have you got a DNA sample of Abraham? Which Abraham is it?
I myself will not be surprised if Abraham (or anybody else who lived during Abraham's period) are one among my million or billion of ancestors.
Due to 4000 years of time differences... which roughly translate to 400 x 3 = 1200 generations.
Thus being among "Abraham's descendant" is nothing special...As reference
A genetic research in China has proven that there are approximately 120 millions of Kublai Khan descendant living in China today.
Or in other words, there are 120 millions people living in China today who has Kublai Khan as among their ancestors.
And Kublai Khan was living in 1200 AD, merely 800 years ago.Right, there is nothing special about having Abraham as one of your billion ancestors and chances are that you are even likely to have him in your genealogical tree and I even bet every single middle eastern person has him as one among billion ancestors. But this is not what I'm talking about. I'm specifically talking about Y-DNA, which is transmitted in a linear fashion from father to son (only men have a Y-chromosome, thus you inherited it directly from your father and so on). So having Abraham as your direct paternal ancestor is very different from having him somewhere in the endless branches forming your genealogical tree. One thing that is very important to know also is that most male lines in the history of mankind didn't survive due to the very high selective pressure arising from a very competitive environment. For instance, eventhough western Europe has been inhabited for more than 40 000 years, around 70% of men there trace their direct paternal ancestry to a single men who lived barely 6000 years ago (R1-L51). In some regions it is even more extreme. In Morocco for instance, 60% of the men descend from a man who lived only 3000 years ago (E1-M81), which is well within the recent historical period ! Female lines, represented by mtDNA, have a much higher survival rate for obvious reasons.
To answer your 2 questions, no we will never be able to extract DNA directly from any of the two given that we cannot retrieve their remains (well provided that the Medina grave isn't Muhammad's). However, that doesn't mean that we cannot solve the puzzle because luckily Muhammad lived quite recently and his cousin Ali is said to have direct male descendants. Of course, it is normal to doubt any such claim of being a direct descendant of Ali since many clans could use this to rise in power and status. Thus, it is very natural that many people uttering such claims are in fact descendants of any random man. So then you might ask, how can we know who are really the descendants of Ali if it is even true that he existed or had any male descendants at all ? This is where it starts to get complicated especially if I try to explain to people who are not familiar with popualtion genetics.
Most of these liars belong to different unrelated lineages that of course have nothing to do with Muhammad. The first condition If there was to be a ''sharif'' line, is that we would expect most people claiming to be so to belong to the same line. And suprisingly, there is one such line J1-FGC8703. Almost every individual belonging to it happens to claim sharif ancestry, which shows that the importance people who really descend from the common ancestor (said to be Ali) gave to their status made them keep track of their ''pristine'' lineage generation after generation ! The line is rare but widespread at the same time, found from Egypt to Paksitan always in individuals claiming sharif ancestry. Now we need to know when did the common ancestor lived in order to see if he could potentially be Ali. Calculations for the time of expansion of this line gave about 1500 years (note that it is impossible to calculate it with certainty, what is important is that the time range should correspond). This line is without a single doubt that of Ali, especially given that individuals immediately outside of this line do not claim Sharif ancestry but claim Quraysh nonetheless !!! These two lines (along with a third one bore by individuals among which some claim sharif ancestry) together form the clade known as J1-L859, considered to be the Quraysh marker. So we have an extremely solid line.
Now how is this line particular in comparaison to other arabian lines. Well, first of all it belongs to a line (J1-FGC8712) which is the immediate sister of the most common arabian line (J1-FGC1695) from which it broke off some 3.5 thousand years ago (their mother clade is J1-FGC12). Second, J1-FGC8712 itself has only 3 known sub-clades J1-L859, J1-L615 and J1-ZS2121, all of which are bottlenecked, which means that they expanded long after they broke off from each other, except ZS2121 which I'll talk about next. The most common arabian line (J1-FGC1695) on the other hand is not bottlenecked but exhibits the opposit pattern, what we call a star-like expansion or an explosion, meaning that it gave way to multiple sub-clades who themselves quickly multiplied(in a layman's words, the men had many sons each generation). Among the two other FGC8712 sub-clades, L615 is a very reduced line found in the Banu Salih tribe of the UAE (United Arab Emirates) who claim ancestry from the Tihama coast of western Arabia. The other is the key element in all of this.
Indeed, ZS2121 comprises two known sub-clades who broke off one mutation (thus very shortly) after ZS2121 was itself separated from L859 and L615 the ashkenazi jewish ZS2102 and a yet to be named line represented by a single armenian individual from Turkey. ZS2102 is extremely peculiar in that it is the only jewish line to fall under J1-FGC11 and it belongs to the 4th FGC11 layer (4 nodes after FGC11). Every layer of FGC11 can demonstrably be shown to have formed in Arabia (probably FGC11 itself although one bronze age sample from Sidon, Lebanon, was found to belong to it), thus the fact that this jewish line is the only one to belong to FGC11 is highly pertinent because it shows how unique it is among jewish lines. Normally if I were told you that Jews do not have any FGC11 but one line only, we would have expected this line to be more distinct from arabian FGC11 and to belong to one of the verly early layers, but it does not. Instead, it belongs to a clearly arabian line, but unique in Arabia for reasons I already told you about.
So is it a coincidence that this line is the sister of the bottlenecked Quraysh L859, from which it broke off very shortly after their ancestor the arabian FGC12 biffurcated into the great FGC1695 and the reduced FGC8712 !?!? So we have this very peculiar ashkenazi line belonging to a clear but unique and rare arabian clade to which also belong the Sharif line !!! There is no other solution J1-FGC8712 was Abraham.
I told you this was complicated and I feel that no one will understand something I'm sorry ahahahaah. I should eventually write something more accessible haha ! In the meantime you could try to understand this by reading it over and over again and asking questions if necessary...
Just to make it as simple as possible though At the time when J1-FGC1695 today's dominant arabian line started to populate Arabia with its endless sons and grandsons, his brother J1-FGC8712 barely had offsprings and only three lucky lines survived, among which the jewish J1-ZS2102 and the Qurayshi J1-L859...
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Lost
I'm specifically talking about Y-DNA, which is transmitted in a linear fashion from father to son (only men have a Y-chromosome, thus you inherited it directly from your father and so on). So having Abraham as your direct paternal ancestor is very different from having him somewhere in the endless branches forming your genealogical tree.
What is the difference between the two things you discribe here. An ancestor hast to be linear and direct, otherwise it is not ancestor at all. So what is that distinction you make?
Salaam
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Lost
What is the difference between the two things you discribe here. An ancestor hast to be linear and direct, otherwise it is not ancestor at all. So what is that distinction you make?Salaam
Salam,
Imagine your genealogical tree as an inverse triangle with you at the bottom, you have your 2 parents and each one of them has their two parents and so on. The sides of the triangle represent what we call the direct lines, one of the sides represent your direct paternal ancestors while the other one represents your direct maternal ancestors. To have Abraham as your direct paternal ancestor, he should be on the male side thus he should be the father of the father of the father of the fatherof your father. Just like surnames, this is how Y-DNA is transmitted, in a linear fashion, as it does not go through recombination like the remaining chromosomal DNA (the 22 autosomes and the X chromosome) due to the fact that only men possess the Y chromosome. The female direct line is represented by mtDNA, the DNA contained in mitochondria, which we inherit from our mother. These uniparental lines are called haplogroups. The markers I described in my last post are examples of Y-DNA haplogroups ie paternal lineages...
To have Abraham somewhere in your genealogical tree is thus very different from having his Y-DNA haplogroup.
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we all have one code logically. all humanity traced back to first human male female and i give that code name XXX . that triple x genes are present in all human beings if anyone dnt have that code its mean hez alien.
all animals plants have same history.
every code started from singularity.even the code of planetary system work same way.
SIDE NOTE
people who claims that they are desendents of ALI are most weird people i encounter in my life. characterstics of THOSE desendents.1 THEY believe they are from ALI ( without any evidence)
2 they believe they are CHOSEN people and have a upper hand on all socities.
3 THEY called themselves SYED never heard about sharif but hashmi and qureshi.
4 THEY never get married with a person who is not a desendent of ALI.(due to whixh most of the times man and women ended marriage-less) i know some of them personally.
5 THEY want you give pledge on their hand called ( acceptence of their highness) and followers must have to kiss the hand of chief man.
6 some of them select a line called ( DOCTOR) of witchhunting and black magic and when someone is controlled by a freak spirit these are the only freaks availaible in TOWN who can repair that PERSON usually girls lmao. sometimes these doctors turned in to rapists specially when girls cant give birth then these doctors said her to have a sex with pure bloodline of ALI so that u can get pregnet. cases are in the NEWS.
7 Weirdest EVER claim once i ask how i believe someone is not fake or he is definately from ali bloodline.
ANSWER given by SYED THE fire of hell and any fire is useless on the SKIN of all SYED. FIRE is haram on syed skin. so if somebody is faking it he must know this thing. lmao rotfl
after that i asked from him are you real SYED ?
he sid YES.i said i wana put fire on you to TEST you lmaoo police
i dun wana tell what happened after that in short they are chosen people same like Jews who claimed to b chosen by God of moses. -
Peace Imran.
If someone tells me they are the blood line of Ali, I say good for you.
Why should it bother me any further.
I mean in reality Whoever is what they are, should be in it for themselves.Also the reality is one is what they practice/do/?" Wa man Tazakka Fa Innama Yatazakka Linafsihi?"
Irrelevant what bloodline one is. One can be either good or bad, that is the real measure.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
we all have one code logically. all humanity traced back to first human male female and i give that code name XXX . that triple x genes are present in all human beings if anyone dnt have that code its mean hez alien.
all animals plants have same history.
every code started from singularity.even the code of planetary system work same way.
SIDE NOTE
people who claims that they are desendents of ALI are most weird people i encounter in my life. characterstics of THOSE desendents.1 THEY believe they are from ALI ( without any evidence)
2 they believe they are CHOSEN people and have a upper hand on all socities.
3 THEY called themselves SYED never heard about sharif but hashmi and qureshi.
4 THEY never get married with a person who is not a desendent of ALI.(due to whixh most of the times man and women ended marriage-less) i know some of them personally.
5 THEY want you give pledge on their hand called ( acceptence of their highness) and followers must have to kiss the hand of chief man.
6 some of them select a line called ( DOCTOR) of witchhunting and black magic and when someone is controlled by a freak spirit these are the only freaks availaible in TOWN who can repair that PERSON usually girls lmao. sometimes these doctors turned in to rapists specially when girls cant give birth then these doctors said her to have a sex with pure bloodline of ALI so that u can get pregnet. cases are in the NEWS.
7 Weirdest EVER claim once i ask how i believe someone is not fake or he is definately from ali bloodline.
ANSWER given by SYED THE fire of hell and any fire is useless on the SKIN of all SYED. FIRE is haram on syed skin. so if somebody is faking it he must know this thing. lmao rotfl
after that i asked from him are you real SYED ?
he sid YES.i said i wana put fire on you to TEST you lmaoo police
i dun wana tell what happened after that in short they are chosen people same like Jews who claimed to b chosen by God of moses.Eventhough you say we all have one code, you should understand that throughout time the accumulative occurence of mutations allows us to distinguish between organisms. Every living organism ultimately comes from a single ancestor but with time and under the right conditions multiple ''random'' mutational routes led to the great diversity we observe today.
So of course being a descendant of Ali does not bestow you with any special ability or value, this is not what we should care about. What is relevant here is the fact that those descendants make it possible for us to identify the Y-DNA line of Muhammad and to then see whether the claim made by the Quran that Muhammad is the direct descendant of Abraham can hold up to scrutiny, thus proving or debunking not only the Quran but also the various alternative theories about Muhammad in the process.
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To answer your 2 questions, no we will never be able to extract DNA directly from any of the two given that we cannot retrieve their remains (well provided that the Medina grave isn't Muhammad's). However, that doesn't mean that we cannot solve the puzzle because luckily Muhammad lived quite recently and his cousin Ali is said to have direct male descendants. Of course, it is normal to doubt any such claim of being a direct descendant of Ali since many clans could use this to rise in power and status. Thus, it is very natural that many people uttering such claims are in fact descendants of any random man.
Why you or anyone will never able to extract DNA directly from Abraham and Muhammad remains?
Given they both have their (alleged) tomb?
That is the only way to be certain...It can potentially prove that that dude in the (alleged) Muhammad's tomb and that dude in the (alleged) Abraham's tomb is paternally related or not.
The Kublai Khan (Yuan Dynasty) genetic research was able to get a DNA extract from Yuan dynasty tomb.
But there was no tomb of Genghis Khan (Kublai's grandpa), thus the research cannot make any claim to Genghis..The research had similar background, where people in middle east often claimed lineage to Muhammad or Abraham to get a POLITICAL EDGE. The people in Central and North Asia often claimed lineage to Genghis Khan to get a political edge as well.
Yet the research shows that being a descendant of Kublai Khan (thus also Genghis Khan) is nothing special at all, as 120 million people living today are descendant of the khan.The social / cultural impact of the result is nowaday people in China doesn't see any specialty of being a descendant of the khan. Thus a claim of being the descendant of the Khan to get a political (or economical) edge is losing it's social / political effectiveness.
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Why you or anyone will never able to extract DNA directly from Abraham and Muhammad remains?
Given they both have their (alleged) tomb?
That is the only way to be certain...It can potentially prove that that dude in the (alleged) Muhammad's tomb and that dude in the (alleged) Abraham's tomb is paternally related or not.
The Kublai Khan (Yuan Dynasty) genetic research was able to get a DNA extract from Yuan dynasty tomb.
But there was no tomb of Genghis Khan (Kublai's grandpa), thus the research cannot make any claim to Genghis..The research had similar background, where people in middle east often claimed lineage to Muhammad or Abraham to get a POLITICAL EDGE. The people in Central and North Asia often claimed lineage to Genghis Khan to get a political edge as well.
Yet the research shows that being a descendant of Kublai Khan (thus also Genghis Khan) is nothing special at all, as 120 million people living today are descendant of the khan.The social / cultural impact of the result is nowaday people in China doesn't see any specialty of being a descendant of the khan. Thus a claim of being the descendant of the Khan to get a political (or economical) edge is losing it's social / political effectiveness.
Well like you said they allegedly have tombs. In the case of Muhammad it is highly plausible to be really his, but for Abraham it is highly unlikely, almost definitely that of a random man. In any case, the evidence I presented makes a strong case for the quranic narrative. Like I told you there is nothing special about having a man who lived some 3500 years ago somewhere in your genealogical tree, but it is another thing to have his Y chromosome, that is to be his direct descendant from father to son, to have his surname let's say. The genetic information and the quranic narrative go hand in hand as far as Abraham and Muhammad are concerned. The Quran says that Abraham had two sons, a fact that corresponds with the bottlenecked character of FGC8712 compared to his brother FGC1695 who expanded massively in Arabia.
As for the Khan, well I won't be surprised that Genghis would figure in the genealogical tree of a significant fraction of central and east asian people (although I don't know from where you got that number), just like I'm myself claiming that Abraham could be present in the genealogical tree of every middle-eastern and not only a fraction given that he lived well before 1200 AD. And just like with Abraham, having the Y chromosome of Genghis Khan is not the same as having him in some random place in your tree. In fact, if 120 million people descend from him, only a few millions are his direct father to son descendants and have his Y-DNA known as haplogroup C2-Y12782 !!! Plus keep in mind that Khan is known to have initiated what we call a founder effect (he had multiple male descendats), unlike Abraham with his 2 sons...
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we all have one code logically. all humanity traced back to first human male female and i give that code name XXX . that triple x genes are present in all human beings if anyone dnt have that code its mean hez alien.
all animals plants have same history.
every code started from singularity.even the code of planetary system work same way.
SIDE NOTE
people who claims that they are desendents of ALI are most weird people i encounter in my life. characterstics of THOSE desendents.1 THEY believe they are from ALI ( without any evidence)
2 they believe they are CHOSEN people and have a upper hand on all socities.
3 THEY called themselves SYED never heard about sharif but hashmi and qureshi.
4 THEY never get married with a person who is not a desendent of ALI.(due to whixh most of the times man and women ended marriage-less) i know some of them personally.
5 THEY want you give pledge on their hand called ( acceptence of their highness) and followers must have to kiss the hand of chief man.
6 some of them select a line called ( DOCTOR) of witchhunting and black magic and when someone is controlled by a freak spirit these are the only freaks availaible in TOWN who can repair that PERSON usually girls lmao. sometimes these doctors turned in to rapists specially when girls cant give birth then these doctors said her to have a sex with pure bloodline of ALI so that u can get pregnet. cases are in the NEWS.
7 Weirdest EVER claim once i ask how i believe someone is not fake or he is definately from ali bloodline.
ANSWER given by SYED THE fire of hell and any fire is useless on the SKIN of all SYED. FIRE is haram on syed skin. so if somebody is faking it he must know this thing. lmao rotfl
after that i asked from him are you real SYED ?
he sid YES.i said i wana put fire on you to TEST you lmaoo police
i dun wana tell what happened after that in short they are chosen people same like Jews who claimed to b chosen by God of moses.Salam brother Imran, you are very right.
The war in in Yemen is a good example the Houthis militia are massacring Yemenis because they belive its their God given right being the prophets descendants to rule others and they are the chosen people.
God bless you all
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Salam brother Imran, you are very right.
The war in in Yemen is a good example the Houthis militia are massacring Yemenis because they belive its their God given right being the prophets descendants to rule others and they are the chosen people.
God bless you all
wsalam brother centi,
CHOSEN people already have right to choose whatever they want.
THESE arabs were lucky at first they gather manpower by using the factor of force/politics/fear/greed/religion.
then they started invasion on their surroundings..
they were rich from the history of capturing other people property and land or impose taxes on them "whichever is higher" .all empires have similar histories.. including british empire..
but slowly slowly invasion,slavery,stealing considered wrong by majority of peacemakers in nations..
hence in 1951 slavery finsihed by internation act..now LOOK their luck they found oil.. need for everyone who need to use things based on energy...
thats why they feel we are CHOSEN people.. we have black GOLD and we already rob lot of yellow GOLD so lets play GOLD vs GOLD ..
lets introduce VISA system for all those who are not the residents of ARAB for pilgrimage..
the average hajj COST is roughly 7000 ? the amount what a average labour person can save in roughly 10 years..(in some cases not in whole life)
another thing is umra thats not seasonal like hajj its just to run the business for 24/7/365.because they are CHOSEN people.. they can choose whatever way of making themselves rich..
they are also very powerful they can kill anyone who go against them.. the recent kashogi murder case is one of the example of their royal highness..
even after knowing everything whoz behind the murder, authorities are unable to take any action. WHY ?
because they are chosen people...
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Well like you said they allegedly have tombs. In the case of Muhammad it is highly plausible to be really his, but for Abraham it is highly unlikely, almost definitely that of a random man. In any case, the evidence I presented makes a strong case for the quranic narrative. Like I told you there is nothing special about having a man who lived some 3500 years ago somewhere in your genealogical tree, but it is another thing to have his Y chromosome, that is to be his direct descendant from father to son, to have his surname let's say. The genetic information and the quranic narrative go hand in hand as far as Abraham and Muhammad are concerned. The Quran says that Abraham had two sons, a fact that corresponds with the bottlenecked character of FGC8712 compared to his brother FGC1695 who expanded massively in Arabia.
I'm sorry without DNA sample you cannot make any strong narratives.
You have no smoking gun evidence to say that FGC8712 also exist in Abraham or Muhammad (or any other subject which you want to claim)And having paternal relationship to Abraham (or Nimrod or Terah or whomever living during such period) is nothing special either...