quran434.com
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I understand why quranists want quran434 interpretation to be true, but it's completely wrong.
Most words have multiple meaning but their ambiguity is resolved by grammar rules of that language.
The word Daraba can have other meanings when used with a preposition or an adverb.
However, where Daraba takes the object directly it can only mean beat/hit.
The object of the verb, i.e. the person or thing affected by the action.Doer of DRB prepostion Object = alternate meaning
DRB object = hit
In 434 it takes the object (women) directly. There are no prepositions, adverbs etc.
I've highlighted the different cases although it's much clearer to see in the arabic. Red=alternate meaning Green=hit.
There is never an instance where the verb is taking the object directly and the meaning isn't to-hit.
They article goes out of it's way to prove that DRB never ever means hit by creating alternate meanings e.g 13.
The fact that it's imperative and noun forms mean physical hitting is a significant pointer of what core meaning of DRB is.Another trick is not use the full arabic word but use a strange arabic/english concoction "idriboo them". This way you hide the fact the verb is taking the object directly. The word in 443 is Wadribuhunna
DRB fee al ard = journey in the land/earth
DRB fee sabeeli Allahi = journey in God's way/path
Verb does not take the affected object (us readers) directly in any of these - i.e. Allah is the doer of DRB (not the receiver or affected by it)/
3)
DRB + mathal = propound/cite an example/similitude/parablekathalika yadribu Allahu al haqqa wa al batila = in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood
Fa darabna AAala athanihim fee al kahfi sineena AAadadan = So We sealed/covered on/over their ears in the cave some years
Verb takes the object directly
6)
Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum wa thooqoo AAathaba al hareeqi
= And if you could but see when the angels/controllers* are taking (unto themselves, i.e. at death) those who reject striking their faces/fronts and backs and (say) "taste the penalty of the fire."Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?wal yadribna bi khumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna = and let them draw/cast with their covers over/on their chests
8 )
wala yadribna bi arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feetAfanadribu AAankumu al ththikra = Should We withdraw from you the reminder
fa duriba baynahum bi soorin = then put forth between them with a wall
fa idrib lahum tareeqan fee al bahri yabasan = then indicate for them a dry path in the sea
Imperative form.
12)
idrib bi AAasaka al bahra fa infalaqa = strike with your staff the sea, then it split/separatedidrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa infajarat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then vented from it (twelve springs)
idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa inbajasat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then gushed from it (twelve springs)
idriboohu bi baAAdiha = cite /point out him with some of it (the murder)
Wa khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi wala tahnath = And take with your hand a bundle, then strike with it, and do not break your oath
duribat + AAalayhimu = pitched upon them
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Imperative form.
fa darba al rriqabi hattaitha athkhantumoohum = so strike the necks until when you have overcome them
18 - Noun
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What you ay is not true, wakas did an extensive estudy of it, and in fact as it turns out in none of the cases of daraba in the Qur'an is hit he only menaing nor the best meaning or most fitting. In 4-34 it is just ludicruous. Nobody has done anything wrong, that people in general, because do not forget it is people that are being addressed not males. Look carefully at the pronouns, males are mentionned as third person, just as women, the second person is addressed just as in previous ayas and just as in the following ayas. At no time is the addressee changed, people in general are addressed all along.
So who is going to hit who because the people fears that some females may do something, but nohting ha been done?
You speak about grammar, but grammar tells you that what you interpret is absolute nonsense. You might like the Qur'an to say nongsense so you feel vindicated in your prejudices, but the fact is that it does not.
Salaam
Salaam
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if this word got multiple uses then perhaps its there due to a reason.
God guide and misguide people from same verses.
due to this verse some women love getting beat i have witnessed it.
they enjoyed it while somebody beat her otherwise she dnt feel nothing ( lol ).once i get shocked when a woman told me that ?u r a soft person and u hate violence and color of blood hence we have a mismatch? coz i like (wild/rough).
i know some girls/boys who are strange type in beating their ownselves. they write a name of their beloved with some sharp edge thing(knife,razor) on their arms/hands etc for showing their true love lol.
one of my friend encounter a same thing he get married with a women who request from him to beat her while intercourse ( crazy hell) after 4 weeks of martiage he eventually breakup with her. he asked me one day what should i do?
i say him if thats the only way then just beat her and see her response . next day he was telling me she enjoyed a lot she love beating and she was telling me not to stop hitting.and i asked then what happened?
he showd me his swelled hand and i start felling pity for him hahahha he goes to me my hand start hurting while slapping her the way she wanted. but she was loving it and he said i dnt think so we have a match.( its a true event) i ll make it short we inquired about her and found out she had 6 marriages in last 5 years.
her divorce papers from different people were hanging on wall where people hang utility bills . rotfl ( thats what he said to me ).
so this verse is open for the people not only girls but also boys who believe in beating science.
some people love slaping (surveys) + evidence
some people love wild (survey) + evidenceas well as this four partners thing ( some guys/girls cant get satisfied with singularity) they always want more for them its also open to get partners.
before 100 years it was very normal that a man have two or three wives and all wives lives under same roof. society accepted it ( i dunno no why) but even still happening but now things are getting reversed due to social media. in short i think Quran/God never want to interfare or imposed a law of ?only? one partner due to reason. coz if Quran already make a law of only one partner then it would be a struggle for those who get bored from (singularity/uniformity). author is highly intelligent no doubt.
about this beating thing (personally) i hate violence. but in this life we have different flavours of people. some of them love violence.
in the END i want to ask/reflect on something if somebody can understand. becoz i know in advance most of brilliant minds in this forum hardly get what i want to say hope so this question will let you guys think what i am on about.
Question
if a woman love beating and in a situation like my friend ( what advise we should give to them) ? is it allowed for him to beat her in that specific occassion? becoz grammer of quran never in a favour of violence ? it will be difficult for him to act on what God did not command.?or its a matter of choice if they both get match like both (wild) people is it ok to have beat now? what if a girl say if she get satisfaction of beat she will give him prays so basically hez helping her in achieving her fantasy its kind a good deed?
every issue got discrepencies only if we think as a WHOLE.
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Dear Burhan...
Below is a general translation i took....434 Men are in charge of women by what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in absence what Allah would have them guard. But those from whom you fear arrogance - advise them; , forsake them in bed; and , strike them. But if they obey you , seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand"
My dear.... God uses only the way of solution and not infuse petrol to burning fire... Your mother is a woman,,, do you like to beat her when she act same way the wife... If you can sole the issue of your mother without approaching for violence then man should be able to solve the issue with wife or even sisters for that matter if you are believing man...
It's so easy to grasp with the flow of the verse...
Don't forget first it was revealed to a Arabic community and that also a long time back... First priority of the verse is for them... Then whoever is applicable.. As you all know not all thing in Quran is relevant to all.. For example don't raise the voice of your above prophet... Simple...God says Man is the leading role... It's fair enough in that society... Even now it is the case.... Man always act as man.... Man can't be weak when compared with women.. If the comparison goes with equal. Nature.. For example Usain bolt vs Veronica Campbell... They don't match... Lol..
In general men is the one who earns those days... Women take the role of household.... Even after all these years... Even in developed countries this pattern still there though both are working... Modern day men are very smart and they are much cooperative in family matters as well while having to work or doing a business... If you think modern day is different... I don't agree... You ask any girl would you like to marry a jobless man? 99.9 I guess No... But same question to men... You will. See drastic difference... Men doesn't mind even women work or not... In every crooks and corners of life we can see this pattern...
So righteous women spontaneously become obedient depending on the behaviour of her partner... Even partner goes wrong she Will try to correct him... Coz she fears God and she is a obedient righteous person... She prefers her husband also righteous...The other point is FEAR and ILLCONDUCT of women.. Note... not men but women.... Coz this instructions are meant for Men and not for women... Women in this scenarios is part of it...
Nor if the illconduct and fear is not around then family life goes smoothly and no creepy situations....
But if it fails this commandment cones into effect... ... Remember this instructions is to Men and that also seems to be to a believing. Men... Otherwise to a bad man these instructions won't work... Coz before he correct his woman he himself should reform....
ILLCONDUCT of any nature is irritating for a life which has a bond... Specially marriage life which has no blood relations and can break up any time...
So... What is the first of those such men has to do... ADVICE... such a basic thing... Advising to a woman who has illconduct or the believing man fears she has such illconduct... Advices may work or may not depending on the illconduct of the women and her curiosity on it...
NEXT.... Still they live together... No divorce after all those advices.... So God say second step.... Why coz first step didn't workout.... Otherwise second option is not needed...
FORSAKE THEM IN BED....
This is key.... If she is really a person who has a misconduct (such aa having a secret relationship with another man sexually or for passtime them she won't feel the forsaking from the bed..) she won't mind... Right?.. But if it was only his doubt she would feel it... And the man would notice it... So he can start trusting her...
THIRD STEP...
DARAB.... it's not beat.. Nonsense.. After all this only you want to beat her... He must be a very patient fellow.. Lol... Just use common sense... To beat a women in situations like this, it won't take ages for a man if she actually had ILLCONDUCT... But believer won't do so... But if it is a normal person he won't go through all these, coz he has already doubted her whether she is right or wrong...
But only a true believer can be patient and go through all these steps of God instructed..
What is DARAB... Why we need to step into the third option which is DARAB?? coz this believing man has found out that his wife is not bothered about not sharing the bed with her...so second mission also failed.... So it is evidence..... Clear evidence.. If she doesn't like/bothered to share the bed with the man she is married then his doibt is clear..
So DARAB is to MOVE FORWARD... no point of having any more relationship with her... She is. No more of his... Moving forward to take steps and not violence... Divorce is one option and look for another wife if it is allowed for him to marry another under the conditions of those days.. Such as right hand possess etc.... Set forth your journey... You can't keep playing games...
But if she in between reform and obeys you in case... Then react not in any means against her... It shows still you can accept her... Be as family again...
For such behavior in women there could be various reasons.. Sometimes her lonliness coz of the absence of her husband. For longtime.. .. Or the weakness of the husband sexually... Etc.. And it can be her own extreme interest on others.... Such things are family matters... Needed to be addressed and solved
.not the option of beating... By beating what solution you expect... She will only become worse mentally and physically and you will only become the culprit... Life is havoc...
Doesn't the DARAB = move forward / turn away also in Arabic... Even the meaning of press will suit as the last option... You can press her..
Pls don't hit women if you are a man... Be any woman unless she attack you for your self defence... ..
Don't spoil Arabic and Quran with hadith...
God guide us... -
Peace All
When I first came across that verse years ago, I was thinking to myself the following
1- what does one hit with? your hand, a stick, your slipper...etc
2- How hard should one hit? weak, medium or hard.
3- How many times? few hits, more than a dozen or until I am tired of hitting.Then it hit me. GOD did not say, why? Has GOD left it up to us to choose the weapon ,the severity and the length of the hitting?
I looked at my wife, bless her she is an angel and asked her opinion she said, quote
"Let me read it for myself". I gave her few minutes when she finished she smiled and left the room. I quickly called her back .
Tell me what you think please? She looked at me and said "Is the verse addressing both of us?, I could also hit you!!!I said What? She said it is addressing "Rijal" that could be you or me. Don t you remember when....
I said You mean "the bread winner"....etc.
Anyway cutting the story short we both agreed there is no way GOD will ask us to hit but leaves it to our discretion. Some will kill the person under the pretext...etc.Never ever ,since then did I even give "hit" a thought.
Never should it come to that anyway looking at the options in the verse.
Just my thoughts.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
true GL brother,
but also author instruct us to use reason.
so i didnt advice women to hit a man most of the cases men physically stronger than women.
but if women sure she can beat the shit out of arrogant husband then i m fully with her. evrybody should get lesson.
moreover i see cases in which women proved themselves ?equal? when they beat men.last year my one of my frd was complaing me about his hand he said my wife yesterday beat me i asked why he said i beat her first and she was in mood hahaha so she attack back and he cant defend himself. i said she ROCKs.
i laugh a lot when women knight in ?game of thrones? beat two of the powerful warrior hand to hand , i rate that women.
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peace burhan,
lol@you,
Bro, you have contradicted yourself
The word Daraba can have other meanings when used with a preposition or an adverb.
However, where Daraba takes the object directly it can only mean beat/hit.
The object of the verb, i.e. the person or thing affected by the action.Doer of DRB prepostion Object = alternate meaning
DRB object = hit
In 434 it takes the object (women) directly. There are no prepositions, adverbs etc.
I've highlighted the different cases although it's much clearer to see in the arabic. Red=alternate meaning Green=hit.
You then go on to highlight green verses which have a preposition, i.e. DRB + preposition + object, and do not highlight in red the DRB+mathal verses (I assume because it doesn't fit your view) - does it mean hit in them or not? And for 1811 you say "Verb takes the object directly" but it doesn't mean hit - or does it here according to you? And (14) has preposition etc. etc.
Your claims are a mess right from the start.
Please make up your mind before I can take your critique seriously.
I am happy to address it once you clarify.
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peace burhan,
lol@you,
Grow up and cut out the ad-hominems.
You then go on to highlight green verses which have a preposition, i.e. DRB + preposition + object, and do not highlight in red the DRB+mathal verses (I assume because it doesn't fit your view) - does it mean hit in them or not?
I couldn't highlight because there was no text to highlight from your article.
Besides, you can't beat an example. There is no ambiguity when dealing with abstract nouns.
DRB + abstract noun will ways be non-physical by definition. There is nothing you can do to the language to make an asbtract noun turn magically into a physical thing.And for 1811 you say "Verb takes the object directly" but it doesn't mean hit
No I didn't - look again. That comment refers to your article point 6).
- The verse doesn't tell us what he is supposed to hit. Whether you take it to mean physical hitting or metaphor doesn't really change my argument. There are three categories;
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DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical
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DRB + real object directly => meaning is always physical contact.
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DRB + real object indirectly => Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.
434 takes it's object directly in the most explicit sense because there is a direct object pronoun attached to the verb.
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peace burhan,
What can I say your post made me laugh.
Note you had to clarify/correct yourself, but I'm afraid you will have to correct/clarify yourself again...
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DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical
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DRB + real object directly => meaning is always physical contact.
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DRB + real object indirectly => Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.
Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.
You can use the article at Quran434.com (like you did in your original post) and cut & paste which ones/types fall into which category.
- The verse doesn't tell us what he is supposed to hit. Whether you take it to mean physical hitting or metaphor doesn't really change my argument.
Quote from article ** Arabic bihi (with it). "hi" refers to a masculine and the closest preceding masculine is the cool spring.
If you disagree/agree, please provide your translation of the relevant part in 3844 "...khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi..."
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Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.
exvellent bro, bravo
THIS method appears hard/tough/timetaking thats y its obvious to see why lot of people are unaware about a basic method of crosscheck for checing the credibilty of any calim what they are making. ( as per scholarly rules of text)
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Note you had to clarify/correct yourself, but I'm afraid you will have to correct/clarify yourself again
You asked for a clarification which I duly provided. Now you are disparaging me for doing the very thing you asked me to do. The more pride you show the harder it will be for you to change your mind.
CAT-1 is self-evident. You can't physically hit an abstract object, which is why I didn't explicitly mention it. We know the meaning of those verses can never be physical contact. So whether the sentences use prepositions or a different verb form is irrelevant. These verses can be completely ignored from the analysis.
That leaves with us with real objects. What we should look at is how does DRB behave when it is used with a real object directly (CAT-2) and with a preposition (CAT-3).
Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.
I would have thought it's pretty obvious what the categories are based on the definitions. Abstract objects = CAT-1,
Real objects = CAT-2 & Prepositions = CAT -3.The categories are descriptive of the Arabic text not prescriptive of my view. It's like asking me to list all even numbers after I tell you an even number is a number that is divisible by 2. We should both have the same list numbers. Anyway, I've done as you asked. Please do check and confirm. We should be in agreement as it's a just sorting exercise.
Your list contains Noun forms of DRB. These shouldn't really be in the list but I have left them in for completeness.
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DRB fee al ard = journey in the land/earth CAT-3
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DRB fee sabeeli Allahi = journey in God's way/path CAT-3
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DRB + mathal = propound/cite an example/similitude/parable CAT-1
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kathalika yadribu Allahu al haqqa wa al batila = in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood
CAT-1 -
Fa darabna AAala athanihim fee al kahfi sineena AAadadan = So We sealed/covered on/over their ears in the cave some years CAT-3
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Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum wa thooqoo AAathaba al hareeqi CAT-2
= And if you could but see when the angels/controllers* are taking (unto themselves, i.e. at death) those who reject striking their faces/fronts and backs and (say) "taste the penalty of the fire."
Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?- wal yadribna bi khumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna = and let them draw/cast with their covers over/on their chests CAT-3
wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet CAT-3
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Afanadribu AAankumu al ththikra = Should We withdraw from you the reminder CAT-1
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fa duriba baynahum bi soorin = then put forth between them with a wall CAT-3
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fa idrib lahum tareeqan fee al bahri yabasan = then indicate for them a dry path in the sea CAT-3
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idrib bi AAasaka al bahra fa infalaqa = strike with your staff the sea, then it split/separated CAT-2
idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa infajarat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then vented from it (twelve springs)
idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa inbajasat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then gushed from it (twelve springs)
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idriboohu bi baAAdiha = cite /point out him with some of it (the murder) CAT-2
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Wa khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi wala tahnath = And take with your hand a bundle, then strike with it, and do not break your oath CAT-2
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duribat + AAalayhimu = pitched upon them CAT-1
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fa idriboo fawqa al-aAAnaqi wa idriboo minhum kulla bananin = so strike above/over the necks, and strike from them every/each finger/extremity. CAT-2
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fa darba al rriqabi hattaitha athkhantumoohum = so strike the necks until when you have overcome them CAT-2
1 Fa ragha AAalayhim darban bi al yameeni = then he turned upon them striking with the right hand CAT-2
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I was unusually busy recently, and I had to re-read your post several times due to your categorisation. You will note the differences between your original post and your latest position, i.e.
before
2 categories
DRB+object = hitlatest
3 categories
DRB+object = physical contactJust pointing this out in case readers missed it. So, let's get to the crux of the matter, and that is your category 2
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DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical
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DRB + real object directly => meaning is always physical contact.
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DRB + real object indirectly => Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.
Using Quran434.com list, you classified the following as Cat2
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DRB+object
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DRB+preposition+object
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DRB+preposition+object
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DRB+object
1 DRB+preposition+(object)
Can you clarify why some of the above are not Cat3?
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I was unusually busy recently, and I had to re-read your post several times due to your categorisation. You will note the differences between your original post and your latest position, i.e.
I appreciate your time. Yes it's good that you summarize as we go along. I don't know if you were implying a difference between hit and physical contact. It's the same in my mind. We can use literal and non-literal if you want.
John was hitting Katie (physical contact, literalusage of hit)
John was hitting on Katie (flirting, a non-literal usage of hit)We can clarify this point later as I need to address your question first before we can move to meanings.
I think there are two questions here that you are asking.
Why I think those verses are in Cat-2?
Why those verses mean physical hit/literal?So the categorization has nothing to do with what I think verse means. Cat-2 is simply all those verses where the DRB takes it's object (Maf'ool bihi) directly without a corresponding object preposition. If I see an object preposition then that verse is Cat-3. The categorization is simply identifying the sentence structure - I'm not implying any meaning at this point. I will give my rationale for why I think all Cat-2 verses are literal, but it's important we understand each other on the sentence structure.
So by definition 6 and 17 are Cat-2 as you agree there is no preposition.
Point 12, 16, 18 also don?t' have an object preposition.
Point 12 - Verse 2663
https//i.ibb.co/xGCNfvm/Point-12-C26-V63.png
There is no preposition with "the sea". "the sea" is the Maf?ool bihi - the thing to which DRB is done.
If you are thinking "with your staff" is a preposition that's wrong as well. "with your staff" is not the Maf?ool bihi of the verb DRB.
If the phrase was "Min al bahra" from the sea, then yes "Min" would be a preposition.Point 16 - Verse 812
https//i.ibb.co/yy0Cyzy/Point-16-C8-V12.png
This is in two parts. The first part the object "the necks" has no preposition. The second part does have a preposition "from them" for the object "every fingertip". So the first part is Cat-2 and the second part is Cat-3.
Point 18 - Verse 3793
https//i.ibb.co/NTB3KbM/Point-18-C37-V93.png
Here we have the noun form. The preposition "upon" in "upon them" goes with the verb "Then he turned".
There is no object preposition connecting Darban to it's Maf'ool bihi.I hope we can now have agreement on the categorization. You might need to check all my Cat-3 again to make sure that there is definitely a preposition.
I think you already agree with Cat-1.
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Thanks for clarifying your categorisation. Which category for 4357?
Same, Cat-1. The maf'ool bihi is the example of Son-of-Mary - that's an abstract thing.
For example if I say "I like Wakas's ideas." that doesn't mean I like you it means I like your ideas.
Note it's in the passive voice, so there is no doer of DRB. So it can't mean something silly like Son-of-Mary hit the example etc.
The translation (in passive voice) here would be When the Son-of-Mary example was cited, your people laughed about it.
Also I'd like to correct Point 8 ) to CAT-2 as there is no preposition or rather there is no object.
8 ) wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet CAT-3
It's intransitive so no object is required. I would accept your objection as it doesn't fit in any category.
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Re 4357
I asked those more knowledgeable of Arabic than I when I wrote my article about this verse and this is what they said which I wrote on Quran434.comIn 4357 Jesus is the second object of the verb DuRiBa, and in this verse it is in the perfect passive form meaning the object received the action expressed in the verb, i.e. Jesus received DRB, i.e. Jesus was put/shown forth / cited/indicated (as an example) by those disputing. In 4357 "mathala" could be considered an adverbial accusative that names or modifies the action of the verb. So the type of "darab" of the object "Jesus" is that of an "example".
Also, I'm not convinced it would go into the abstract category but I guess that could be disputed.
Also I'd like to correct Point 8 ) to CAT-2 as there is no preposition or rather there is no object.
That would make it consistent with your categorisation of (14) 3844. However, I agree it doesn't quite fit into any category.
So the following are your Cat2 (in addition to 434)
6), 12), 13), 16) 1st part, 17), 1
8 ), 14) = Cat2 / not any category
Why those verses mean physical hit/literal?
I assume you have read my analysis of the above verses and the various issues surrounding them, so yes now we can move onto why you think they mean physical hit (bearing in mind the objections I've raised on Quran434.com).
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ok great. So to summarize we agree
CAT-1
As above but 4357 is disputed.
We agree the meaning in those by definition is non-literal, as the object of DRB is abstract.CAT-2
6), 8 )* 12), 13), 14)* 16) 1st part, 17), 1*or no category
We agree no object preposition is present but meaning not decided.
CAT-3, as above
We agree all those verses have an object preposition and the meaning is non-literal.Obviously we can both mistakes, so these can be corrected or disputed with good will.
I have read your views on Cat-2. I found them very subjective and in some places you didn't seem to be convinced yourself.
Can I ask you score/grade each point in Cat-2 from 0 to 9. Where 0=100% literal 9=100% non-literal. Don't make them all 9s )
What I will do then is to create a separate thread for each point, starting with the least contentious.
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When I imply agreement with your categorisation I don't mean that's how I think they should be categorised. I am just agreeing with your categorisation (based on your own criteria). Just clarifying.
CAT-3, as above
We agree all those verses have an object preposition and the meaning is non-literal.I do not necessarily agree. Previously you said this about Cat3 "Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical." But I dont think we need to get into that right now and we should focus on your Cat2.
I have read your views on Cat-2. I found them very subjective and in some places you didn't seem to be convinced yourself.
It's fairly rare to be able to prove a word in Quran can only mean one thing and nothing else.
Can I ask you score/grade each point in Cat-2 from 0 to 9. Where 0=100% literal 9=100% non-literal. Don't make them all 9s
What I will do then is to create a separate thread for each point, starting with the least contentious.I dont think grading is helpful, and we should definitely keep the discussion in one thread. I think what will be more helpful is if we take one at a time and I can provide a brief summary of the strongest points which go against the literal/physical understanding. You can then respond.
e.g.
6) ,If the object is real and the hitting is literal/physical (i.e. real) then this means it would be measurable/observable in some way but it isn't. Thus, such an understanding results in an empirical/logical fail.
There is no supporting evidence in Quran that I'm aware of that supports physical hitting in these verses and all the evidence in Quran that I'm aware of goes against such an understanding.
Reference
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part1 -
With the grading I was trying to establish a baseline. I don't want to strawman your arguments so it's important that I understand exactly what you are trying to say in your article.
The first question I have is what is the criteria for you to accept that DRB is being used literally? What does your ideal literal sentence look like?
In your article you say;
It has been shown that there is not one clear occurrence in The Quran in which "beat" is the meaning of DRB.
which made me think that, for you, there is no criteria where DRB can have a literal meaning. In-fact you question the literal meaning of DRB being hit/strike, you say it's "to put/show forth". So the non-literal meaning be would hit/strike.
But then you say;
The only verses in which the preposition "bi" is used with DRB are 2431, 5713, 2663,
260, 7160, 273, 3844, 3793, and in all these occurrences the meaning is a
literal/physical usagewhich made me think, okay, there is a criteria, but it contradicts what you said earlier. I hope you can see my issue here.
If there isn't a criteria i.e. for you DRB never ever means hit/strike then discussing it's usage in the Quran is pointless. We'd then have to get into a discussion of how DRB was used and understood in pre-islamic texts and why today it's literal meaning is or isn't hit/strike.
So to summarize;
• Is the literal meaning of DRB hit/strike as defined in the first paragraph of http//lexicon.quranic-research.net/data/15_D/028_Drb.html
• If yes, then what is the criteria for DRB to convey a literal meaning in sentence. Please give examples of such sentences (they don't have to be Quranic verses)
• If no i.e. the literal meaning of DRB was never hit/strike and dictionaries are incorrect, then please provide your evidence of this change in etymology.
I hope these discussions aren't annoying and that I'm bring something of value.
