Bakka/Mecca
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"Halban and Turban are examples of how far north the expedition must have gone. "
If they did not pass through Mecca to get there then they would not mention it. You want them to reference Mecca (or Becca) no matter what. Well those inscriptions were not written to meet your personal whims and desires.
If they didn't pass through Mecca it was of no importance in the Hejaz to Abraha. Perfectly fitting historical evidence showing Mecca didn't even exist in that period or so insignificant it isn't mention anywhere.
"Some of use are made deaf dumb and blind. I can't change that. "
I quote you christian text saying that Becca is actually a bush and mostly found around Mecca. You just ignore it like it never happened. So who then is the deaf and the blind?
"Ask any historian. They will all agree Abraha most likely had interest in the Hejaz region "
Ask which historian? And having an "interest" in the Hejaz is totally different to rulling over the Hejaz as you hyave been so far claiming. So now Abraha only hand an interest in the Hejaz?
Well most historians agree Abraha ruled the Hejaz. Take your pick. He ruled entire south arabia. Including Yemen, Hejaz and central Arabia.
"All of them will agree Mecca was not mentioned nor important to Abraha at all. "
So if the Abraha was attacking a place in the north, nothing in the south could have existed just because he did not mention it in this four line inscription? You will judge this mans whole life and expeditions and aims based on that one inscription? And then you will claim that Mecca does not exist in the Hejaz. You are a special case, including those who agree with you.
I'm not judging based on one inscription. It's merely one example. If you would be able to open your eyes you would find out many more historical indicators Mecca started being referred to starting in the 4th century. Even for early caliphs the place was insignificant until after the 7th century.
"The placenames Turban and Halban are all situated pretty far north into southern arabia. It's very unlikely Abraha would have known those places but NOT Mecca"
What in the world makes you believe that he did NOT know Mecca? He was not attacking Mecca and hence he did not mention it. You claimed earlier that this inscriptio proves that he ruled over the Hejaz, until I made you understand that this attack was not in the Hejaz but in the area of Nejad. Now you want to create an issue out of nothing by asking, why he didn't mention Mecca in this inscrition. Well logic dictates, that if that man was not attacking Mecca then he would not mention Mecca. How hard is that to understand? As they say ... common sense is not that common.
If he didn't attack Mecca. There was nothing of importance in Mecca. Since he ruled and conquered most of South-Arabia.
"Most (non muslim) historians will agree Mecca is non-existing before the 4th century AD."
Which non-muslims historians and based on what proof?
Do your own research. It's clear to me you aren't accepting mine.
"Bacca is not a bush. It's a proper placename. Still used for that neighbourhood in Jerusalem today."
Bacca has never been a historical place, and you have accepted as much because you could never bring any proof for it. So don't try and twist the facts already discussed earlier in this discussion. As far as Bacca being a bush ... I gave you ample proof from christian records to show it without a doubt. You did not challenge it then, but now, after 5-6 more pages of discussion have passed you casually deny it as if I never posted you references to biblical translations of Bacca (i.e the biblical passages you yourself mentioned). I ask you one thing ... if nothing else, be honest.
Jewish writings predating the Quran mention Bacca many times as a proper placename near Jerusalem. You cherrypicked one biblical translation that used "bushes" and stick to that definition. Well that's biased research.
"Please continue your pagan tradition of praying in the direction of a stone and a pagan shrine that has no abrahamic roots whatsoever."
Yes thank you ... I will.
Good luck with that.
Peace
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runninglikezebras,
It was the Arabic morphology. I tried to make it sensible by inserting words in parenthesis.
I think it should be comprehensible though. "A Spirit that is such kind of" any more easy to comprehend?
I could also ignore the letter order and literal meaning and paraphrase "whose Spirit is as such". The such means God, i.e. that when you are salam your Spirit is like God, sound/flawless. It could also be referred to as sanity or clarity of mind if you so wish.
'Alem has similar word structure with an Ayn instead of Siin. It means 'Gain Such Thereof' implying that you are aware in something rather than not. God is 'alem in everything, i.e. omnipresent. If you have not gained information about something means you lack 'alem. For most cases in Quran, 'alem refers to awareness, i.e. being conscious of the world's real nature. Obviously as the word says morphologically, it does have to do with the strength of one's link to God, "the gain".
Both words are full-blooded Arabic/Semitic words. And it appears it is not just any language but the one who invented it must have been thinking of God.
Where do I get the knowledge from? Well, that you can always ponder upon.
Be well
Emanuel -
Salaam all,
This was a very informative thread to peruse. Based off the first post by Layth, does this mean that the true Pilgrimage is to Jerusalem and not the current day Mecca? -
Salaam all,
This was a very informative thread to peruse. Based off the first post by Layth, does this mean that the true Pilgrimage is to Jerusalem and not the current day Mecca?What is pilgrimage? Where this terminology come from in Quran's translations?
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peace,
Salaam all,
This was a very informative thread to peruse. Based off the first post by Layth, does this mean that the true Pilgrimage is to Jerusalem and not the current day Mecca?You may find this article helpful
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html -
Salaam all,
This was a very informative thread to peruse. Based off the first post by Layth, does this mean that the true Pilgrimage is to Jerusalem and not the current day Mecca?Indeed, all my years of studying this topic have only added to reinforce the finding that Jerusalem is Bakka and it is the center of Pilgrimage for all mankind...
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What is pilgrimage? Where this terminology come from in Quran's translations?
That would be indeed de first question to be answered.
I guess it has been dealt with many times in the forum, but it might be difficult to get a straight answer from it.
I am rather reluctant to mass events, so the whole thing to me is suspect, but I am interested if there is something cogent in the whole thing to get some understanding.
As to the place for such a thin, I have heard to many times in my life of places which are holy everywhere and generally I am put off by such kind of considerations which are always tainted by tribal, nationalistic, ehtnic or historical pride.
Holy is every place, holy is everything, since ev erything is God's creation. What makes a place holier than other? Is not there another issue of the wellknown prejudice of God choosing something and not choosing otherthing? Is it not a reflection of the human penchant to pick some above others and stablish "holy" hyerarchy whereas we know that nobody is above any other except by taqwa?
I think the basics of this question should be dealt with.
Salaam
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As to the place for such a thin, I have heard to many times in my life of places which are holy everywhere and generally I am put off by such kind of considerations which are always tainted by tribal, nationalistic, ehtnic or historical pride.
Holy is every place, holy is everything, since ev erything is God's creation. What makes a place holier than other? Is not there another issue of the wellknown prejudice of God choosing something and not choosing otherthing? Is it not a reflection of the human penchant to pick some above others and stablish "holy" hyerarchy whereas we know that nobody is above any other except by taqwa?
Couldn't agree more...
Any places can be holy (or damned)..
Jerusalem, Mecca, Yemen, Rome, Constantinople/Istanbul, Mt Fuji, Red Rock, Ganggas River, Nile River, Eufrat, Tigris, Yucatan, Borobudur, Shaolin Temple, Pipestone, etc.. etc.. etc..There is no such thing as "one and only truest holy place chosen by God" which makes the other places as false, unholy or unchosen...
And any holy places should be open for all humankind.. -
And any holy places should be open for all humankind..
That is why makka is not HOLY at all.
Reason one (only sunnis are allowed to enter).
Visa policy for non arabs.
Cost reached almost 10000$(depend on country to country). -
Salaam All,
Thank you for your comments and reply on this topic. I went for Umrah about 4 years ago, and when I entered Mecca, I did not feel any sense of spiritual upliftment. There was even a point I was in close proximity to the Kaaba and I felt a sense of indifference and apathy.I have been researching Dan Gibson's theory about Petra and Mecca. Could it be possible that the Mecca of today is not the Mecca of the Prophet (S) and the Mecca mentioned in the Qur'an? If Mecca was such a important and significant city, how come it doesn't appear on any maps until the 7th or 8th centuries respectively?
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This brings me back to the gist of names. There is a very hard to break inertia to see proper names in the Qur'an evrywhere, proper names that have no significance in themselves acept to name a place or a person with a name, but not because that name means something.
Makka, bakka, mean something, regardless of whether they are a place or not.
Salaam
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Salaam All,
Thank you for your comments and reply on this topic. I went for Umrah about 4 years ago, and when I entered Mecca, I did not feel any sense of spiritual upliftment. There was even a point I was in close proximity to the Kaaba and I felt a sense of indifference and apathy.If anyone is looking for a specific place / location on earth that can give them a spiritual upliftment then don't bother to look and no need to go anywhere. Your specific place that you're sitting on now can also give you a spiritual upliftment.
Yet I also observe that the majority of people who went to Mecca doesn't actually looking and hoping for spiritual enlightenment or upliftment, the major driving factors are
- To attain social status (as being those who has performed hajj shall gives them higher social standing within their own community, the status will be boosted higher if they manage to kiss the black stone)
- To attain a kind of compensation / reward (whether in this life or in the hereafter)
- just because they believe that God told them to go there.
I have been researching Dan Gibson's theory about Petra and Mecca. Could it be possible that the Mecca of today is not the Mecca of the Prophet (S) and the Mecca mentioned in the Qur'an? If Mecca was such a important and significant city, how come it doesn't appear on any maps until the 7th or 8th centuries respectively?
It could be.. but nonetheless it really doesn't matter...
That is why makka is not HOLY at all.
Reason one (only sunnis are allowed to enter).
Visa policy for non arabs.
Cost reached almost 10000$(depend on country to country).If that's the case then just make your own place 'holy'....
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Indeed, all my years of studying this topic have only added to reinforce the finding that Jerusalem is Bakka and it is the center of Pilgrimage for all mankind...
Salaam brother Layth. Thank you for responding. Does this also mean that Jerusalem is the Qibla for Muslims?
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That would be indeed de first question to be answered.
I guess it has been dealt with many times in the forum, but it might be difficult to get a straight answer from it.
I am rather reluctant to mass events, so the whole thing to me is suspect, but I am interested if there is something cogent in the whole thing to get some understanding.
As to the place for such a thin, I have heard to many times in my life of places which are holy everywhere and generally I am put off by such kind of considerations which are always tainted by tribal, nationalistic, ehtnic or historical pride.
Holy is every place, holy is everything, since ev erything is God's creation. What makes a place holier than other? Is not there another issue of the wellknown prejudice of God choosing something and not choosing otherthing? Is it not a reflection of the human penchant to pick some above others and stablish "holy" hyerarchy whereas we know that nobody is above any other except by taqwa?
I think the basics of this question should be dealt with.
Salaam
Thank you huruf. It was not a question but a thought to reflect upon that where this ritual come from.
Do you know which word in Quraan means "holly"?
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mecca is not a proper noun and neither is bacca, the root words are ba-kaf-ya and it means to weep- look it up in quran corpus, and for mecca its meem-kaf-nun - that means established
peace and salaamsWhere do you get these roots? Bacca and mecca come from root ba-kaf-kaf and mim-kaf-kaf respectively.
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I had to search for them. Quran corpus is not 100% accurate. Especially with proper nouns they do not link with the other ones their root category. It is correct check it. And Bacca and Mecca are not real places mentioned in the Quran. They are to weep with understanding or realization and establish.
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to be honest thats the hardest/difficult ever topic i ever encounter..
i start studying about it 7 years ago and i m still not sure about one decision or one finding what i can use.
i havnt find any absolute evidence in claims and also i did not find any evidence against those claims..
HISTORY is the only answer and i m in highly doubt if we have any (ORIGINAL) history availaible with us..
by (original) i mean let say bukhari claimed that omer said XYZ,
for authenticating it we need something from the OMAR(sign/stamp). and need to put it on radio carbon testing..oiginal work is either lost or its a plan of big conspricy to make it lost.
funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?
