Bakka/Mecca
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As to the place for such a thin, I have heard to many times in my life of places which are holy everywhere and generally I am put off by such kind of considerations which are always tainted by tribal, nationalistic, ehtnic or historical pride.
Holy is every place, holy is everything, since ev erything is God's creation. What makes a place holier than other? Is not there another issue of the wellknown prejudice of God choosing something and not choosing otherthing? Is it not a reflection of the human penchant to pick some above others and stablish "holy" hyerarchy whereas we know that nobody is above any other except by taqwa?
Couldn't agree more...
Any places can be holy (or damned)..
Jerusalem, Mecca, Yemen, Rome, Constantinople/Istanbul, Mt Fuji, Red Rock, Ganggas River, Nile River, Eufrat, Tigris, Yucatan, Borobudur, Shaolin Temple, Pipestone, etc.. etc.. etc..There is no such thing as "one and only truest holy place chosen by God" which makes the other places as false, unholy or unchosen...
And any holy places should be open for all humankind.. -
And any holy places should be open for all humankind..
That is why makka is not HOLY at all.
Reason one (only sunnis are allowed to enter).
Visa policy for non arabs.
Cost reached almost 10000$(depend on country to country). -
Salaam All,
Thank you for your comments and reply on this topic. I went for Umrah about 4 years ago, and when I entered Mecca, I did not feel any sense of spiritual upliftment. There was even a point I was in close proximity to the Kaaba and I felt a sense of indifference and apathy.I have been researching Dan Gibson's theory about Petra and Mecca. Could it be possible that the Mecca of today is not the Mecca of the Prophet (S) and the Mecca mentioned in the Qur'an? If Mecca was such a important and significant city, how come it doesn't appear on any maps until the 7th or 8th centuries respectively?
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This brings me back to the gist of names. There is a very hard to break inertia to see proper names in the Qur'an evrywhere, proper names that have no significance in themselves acept to name a place or a person with a name, but not because that name means something.
Makka, bakka, mean something, regardless of whether they are a place or not.
Salaam
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Salaam All,
Thank you for your comments and reply on this topic. I went for Umrah about 4 years ago, and when I entered Mecca, I did not feel any sense of spiritual upliftment. There was even a point I was in close proximity to the Kaaba and I felt a sense of indifference and apathy.If anyone is looking for a specific place / location on earth that can give them a spiritual upliftment then don't bother to look and no need to go anywhere. Your specific place that you're sitting on now can also give you a spiritual upliftment.
Yet I also observe that the majority of people who went to Mecca doesn't actually looking and hoping for spiritual enlightenment or upliftment, the major driving factors are
- To attain social status (as being those who has performed hajj shall gives them higher social standing within their own community, the status will be boosted higher if they manage to kiss the black stone)
- To attain a kind of compensation / reward (whether in this life or in the hereafter)
- just because they believe that God told them to go there.
I have been researching Dan Gibson's theory about Petra and Mecca. Could it be possible that the Mecca of today is not the Mecca of the Prophet (S) and the Mecca mentioned in the Qur'an? If Mecca was such a important and significant city, how come it doesn't appear on any maps until the 7th or 8th centuries respectively?
It could be.. but nonetheless it really doesn't matter...
That is why makka is not HOLY at all.
Reason one (only sunnis are allowed to enter).
Visa policy for non arabs.
Cost reached almost 10000$(depend on country to country).If that's the case then just make your own place 'holy'....
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Indeed, all my years of studying this topic have only added to reinforce the finding that Jerusalem is Bakka and it is the center of Pilgrimage for all mankind...
Salaam brother Layth. Thank you for responding. Does this also mean that Jerusalem is the Qibla for Muslims?
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That would be indeed de first question to be answered.
I guess it has been dealt with many times in the forum, but it might be difficult to get a straight answer from it.
I am rather reluctant to mass events, so the whole thing to me is suspect, but I am interested if there is something cogent in the whole thing to get some understanding.
As to the place for such a thin, I have heard to many times in my life of places which are holy everywhere and generally I am put off by such kind of considerations which are always tainted by tribal, nationalistic, ehtnic or historical pride.
Holy is every place, holy is everything, since ev erything is God's creation. What makes a place holier than other? Is not there another issue of the wellknown prejudice of God choosing something and not choosing otherthing? Is it not a reflection of the human penchant to pick some above others and stablish "holy" hyerarchy whereas we know that nobody is above any other except by taqwa?
I think the basics of this question should be dealt with.
Salaam
Thank you huruf. It was not a question but a thought to reflect upon that where this ritual come from.
Do you know which word in Quraan means "holly"?
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mecca is not a proper noun and neither is bacca, the root words are ba-kaf-ya and it means to weep- look it up in quran corpus, and for mecca its meem-kaf-nun - that means established
peace and salaamsWhere do you get these roots? Bacca and mecca come from root ba-kaf-kaf and mim-kaf-kaf respectively.
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I had to search for them. Quran corpus is not 100% accurate. Especially with proper nouns they do not link with the other ones their root category. It is correct check it. And Bacca and Mecca are not real places mentioned in the Quran. They are to weep with understanding or realization and establish.
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to be honest thats the hardest/difficult ever topic i ever encounter..
i start studying about it 7 years ago and i m still not sure about one decision or one finding what i can use.
i havnt find any absolute evidence in claims and also i did not find any evidence against those claims..
HISTORY is the only answer and i m in highly doubt if we have any (ORIGINAL) history availaible with us..
by (original) i mean let say bukhari claimed that omer said XYZ,
for authenticating it we need something from the OMAR(sign/stamp). and need to put it on radio carbon testing..oiginal work is either lost or its a plan of big conspricy to make it lost.
funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?
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to be honest thats the hardest/difficult ever topic i ever encounter..
i start studying about it 7 years ago and i m still not sure about one decision or one finding what i can use.
i havnt find any absolute evidence in claims and also i did not find any evidence against those claims..
HISTORY is the only answer and i m in highly doubt if we have any (ORIGINAL) history availaible with us..
by (original) i mean let say bukhari claimed that omer said XYZ,
for authenticating it we need something from the OMAR(sign/stamp). and need to put it on radio carbon testing..oiginal work is either lost or its a plan of big conspricy to make it lost.
funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?
We forget that what renders a book to earn title of a great book. It is that it should take us to original setting.
Controversy about Becca and Mecca
It seems strange that some people thought that the House built by Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile is not the one which exists in Mecca but it was another one. They opine that it was a different House by referring to the use of Proper Noun Becca, in Qur?n, which seems to them a site located somewhere in the blessed plains of the holy lands possibly near or at the location where subsequent temples were built and maintained by "Hebrew Prophets".
396-97
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The historical, geographical, and archaeological facts all seem to weigh against Mecca and heavily favor Jerusaelm/Bacca. To reiterate, if Mecca was identified as Umm al-Qur, "Mother of All Cities/Settlements," how come it is not shown on any map until roughly the 7th century?
This link provides a exhaustive and comprehensive view on historicity of Mecca from classical writers
STUDIES BY CLASSICAL WRITERS SHOW THAT MECCA COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT BEFORE THE 4TH CENTURY A.D.
By Dr. Rafat Amarihttp//rrimedia.org/Worldviews/Islam/History-of-Islam/studies-by-classical-writers-show-that-mecca-could-not-have-been-built-before-the-4th-century-ad
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funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?
Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.
It seems strange that some people thought that the House built by Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile is not the one which exists in Mecca but it was another one.
It seems strange that people could believe Abraham built a structure in Mecca and mandated everyone within his clan to annually go there.
That is if it's the same Abraham as Abraham whose remain supposedly being buried in Hebron.The (straight line) distance from Hebron to Mecca is 1250 KM.
The terrain is unforgivable, passing through the arid desert, thus one need to carry their own logistics from home, no chance of resupplying at rest area or nearest 7 eleven.Given there were no airplane, fast train or car, the only viable means of transportation is by walking leveraging mule or camel to carry burden of baggage of logistics. At maximum speed it's 5 KM / hour.
By assuming 8 hours per day of walking, per day it's 40 KM of distance.
Thus it need around at least 31 days of dangerous travel to go one way and another 31 days of dangerous travel back home.
If the entire clan need to go there every year, they lost at least 2 months a year just for pilgrimage.
Not to mention the perils of raid and robber invading their home while they're away for 2 months..This annual 'ritual' of pilgrimage will be suicidal for the entire clan..
Plus there aren't any record of such massive travel happened anyway...
Choosing another location nearby for annual meetup is much smarter and realistic decision...
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Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.
It seems strange that people could believe Abraham built a structure in Mecca and mandated everyone within his clan to annually go there.
That is if it's the same Abraham as Abraham whose remain supposedly being buried in Hebron.The (straight line) distance from Hebron to Mecca is 1250 KM.
The terrain is unforgivable, passing through the arid desert, thus one need to carry their own logistics from home, no chance of resupplying at rest area or nearest 7 eleven.Given there were no airplane, fast train or car, the only viable means of transportation is by walking leveraging mule or camel to carry burden of baggage of logistics. At maximum speed it's 5 KM / hour.
By assuming 8 hours per day of walking, per day it's 40 KM of distance.
Thus it need around at least 31 days of dangerous travel to go one way and another 31 days of dangerous travel back home.
If the entire clan need to go there every year, they lost at least 2 months a year just for pilgrimage.
Not to mention the perils of raid and robber invading their home while they're away for 2 months..This annual 'ritual' of pilgrimage will be suicidal for the entire clan..
Plus there aren't any record of such massive travel happened anyway...
Choosing another location nearby for annual meetup is much smarter and realistic decision...
All valid points brother. In addition, if Abraham (as) created the first temple at Mecca, how come there is no mention of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.
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The Black stone has never been analysed with modern scientific techniques and its origins remain the subject of speculation.
MYSTERY upon mystery.
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Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.
what had been happening before ABBASID empire was more shocking started from(first fitna) and then so on.
history is filled with BLOOD and myths. -
All valid points brother. In addition, if Abraham (as) created the first temple at Mecca, how come there is no mention of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.
There is no mention "of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.".
There is no mention of them either performing any such pilgrimage anywhere else.
Salaam
