Bakka/Mecca
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Salaam All,
Thank you for your comments and reply on this topic. I went for Umrah about 4 years ago, and when I entered Mecca, I did not feel any sense of spiritual upliftment. There was even a point I was in close proximity to the Kaaba and I felt a sense of indifference and apathy.If anyone is looking for a specific place / location on earth that can give them a spiritual upliftment then don't bother to look and no need to go anywhere. Your specific place that you're sitting on now can also give you a spiritual upliftment.
Yet I also observe that the majority of people who went to Mecca doesn't actually looking and hoping for spiritual enlightenment or upliftment, the major driving factors are
- To attain social status (as being those who has performed hajj shall gives them higher social standing within their own community, the status will be boosted higher if they manage to kiss the black stone)
- To attain a kind of compensation / reward (whether in this life or in the hereafter)
- just because they believe that God told them to go there.
I have been researching Dan Gibson's theory about Petra and Mecca. Could it be possible that the Mecca of today is not the Mecca of the Prophet (S) and the Mecca mentioned in the Qur'an? If Mecca was such a important and significant city, how come it doesn't appear on any maps until the 7th or 8th centuries respectively?
It could be.. but nonetheless it really doesn't matter...
That is why makka is not HOLY at all.
Reason one (only sunnis are allowed to enter).
Visa policy for non arabs.
Cost reached almost 10000$(depend on country to country).If that's the case then just make your own place 'holy'....
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Indeed, all my years of studying this topic have only added to reinforce the finding that Jerusalem is Bakka and it is the center of Pilgrimage for all mankind...
Salaam brother Layth. Thank you for responding. Does this also mean that Jerusalem is the Qibla for Muslims?
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That would be indeed de first question to be answered.
I guess it has been dealt with many times in the forum, but it might be difficult to get a straight answer from it.
I am rather reluctant to mass events, so the whole thing to me is suspect, but I am interested if there is something cogent in the whole thing to get some understanding.
As to the place for such a thin, I have heard to many times in my life of places which are holy everywhere and generally I am put off by such kind of considerations which are always tainted by tribal, nationalistic, ehtnic or historical pride.
Holy is every place, holy is everything, since ev erything is God's creation. What makes a place holier than other? Is not there another issue of the wellknown prejudice of God choosing something and not choosing otherthing? Is it not a reflection of the human penchant to pick some above others and stablish "holy" hyerarchy whereas we know that nobody is above any other except by taqwa?
I think the basics of this question should be dealt with.
Salaam
Thank you huruf. It was not a question but a thought to reflect upon that where this ritual come from.
Do you know which word in Quraan means "holly"?
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mecca is not a proper noun and neither is bacca, the root words are ba-kaf-ya and it means to weep- look it up in quran corpus, and for mecca its meem-kaf-nun - that means established
peace and salaamsWhere do you get these roots? Bacca and mecca come from root ba-kaf-kaf and mim-kaf-kaf respectively.
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I had to search for them. Quran corpus is not 100% accurate. Especially with proper nouns they do not link with the other ones their root category. It is correct check it. And Bacca and Mecca are not real places mentioned in the Quran. They are to weep with understanding or realization and establish.
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to be honest thats the hardest/difficult ever topic i ever encounter..
i start studying about it 7 years ago and i m still not sure about one decision or one finding what i can use.
i havnt find any absolute evidence in claims and also i did not find any evidence against those claims..
HISTORY is the only answer and i m in highly doubt if we have any (ORIGINAL) history availaible with us..
by (original) i mean let say bukhari claimed that omer said XYZ,
for authenticating it we need something from the OMAR(sign/stamp). and need to put it on radio carbon testing..oiginal work is either lost or its a plan of big conspricy to make it lost.
funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?
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to be honest thats the hardest/difficult ever topic i ever encounter..
i start studying about it 7 years ago and i m still not sure about one decision or one finding what i can use.
i havnt find any absolute evidence in claims and also i did not find any evidence against those claims..
HISTORY is the only answer and i m in highly doubt if we have any (ORIGINAL) history availaible with us..
by (original) i mean let say bukhari claimed that omer said XYZ,
for authenticating it we need something from the OMAR(sign/stamp). and need to put it on radio carbon testing..oiginal work is either lost or its a plan of big conspricy to make it lost.
funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?
We forget that what renders a book to earn title of a great book. It is that it should take us to original setting.
Controversy about Becca and Mecca
It seems strange that some people thought that the House built by Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile is not the one which exists in Mecca but it was another one. They opine that it was a different House by referring to the use of Proper Noun Becca, in Qur?n, which seems to them a site located somewhere in the blessed plains of the holy lands possibly near or at the location where subsequent temples were built and maintained by "Hebrew Prophets".
396-97
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The historical, geographical, and archaeological facts all seem to weigh against Mecca and heavily favor Jerusaelm/Bacca. To reiterate, if Mecca was identified as Umm al-Qur, "Mother of All Cities/Settlements," how come it is not shown on any map until roughly the 7th century?
This link provides a exhaustive and comprehensive view on historicity of Mecca from classical writers
STUDIES BY CLASSICAL WRITERS SHOW THAT MECCA COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT BEFORE THE 4TH CENTURY A.D.
By Dr. Rafat Amarihttp//rrimedia.org/Worldviews/Islam/History-of-Islam/studies-by-classical-writers-show-that-mecca-could-not-have-been-built-before-the-4th-century-ad
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funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?
Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.
It seems strange that some people thought that the House built by Iebra'heim and Iesma'eile is not the one which exists in Mecca but it was another one.
It seems strange that people could believe Abraham built a structure in Mecca and mandated everyone within his clan to annually go there.
That is if it's the same Abraham as Abraham whose remain supposedly being buried in Hebron.The (straight line) distance from Hebron to Mecca is 1250 KM.
The terrain is unforgivable, passing through the arid desert, thus one need to carry their own logistics from home, no chance of resupplying at rest area or nearest 7 eleven.Given there were no airplane, fast train or car, the only viable means of transportation is by walking leveraging mule or camel to carry burden of baggage of logistics. At maximum speed it's 5 KM / hour.
By assuming 8 hours per day of walking, per day it's 40 KM of distance.
Thus it need around at least 31 days of dangerous travel to go one way and another 31 days of dangerous travel back home.
If the entire clan need to go there every year, they lost at least 2 months a year just for pilgrimage.
Not to mention the perils of raid and robber invading their home while they're away for 2 months..This annual 'ritual' of pilgrimage will be suicidal for the entire clan..
Plus there aren't any record of such massive travel happened anyway...
Choosing another location nearby for annual meetup is much smarter and realistic decision...
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Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.
It seems strange that people could believe Abraham built a structure in Mecca and mandated everyone within his clan to annually go there.
That is if it's the same Abraham as Abraham whose remain supposedly being buried in Hebron.The (straight line) distance from Hebron to Mecca is 1250 KM.
The terrain is unforgivable, passing through the arid desert, thus one need to carry their own logistics from home, no chance of resupplying at rest area or nearest 7 eleven.Given there were no airplane, fast train or car, the only viable means of transportation is by walking leveraging mule or camel to carry burden of baggage of logistics. At maximum speed it's 5 KM / hour.
By assuming 8 hours per day of walking, per day it's 40 KM of distance.
Thus it need around at least 31 days of dangerous travel to go one way and another 31 days of dangerous travel back home.
If the entire clan need to go there every year, they lost at least 2 months a year just for pilgrimage.
Not to mention the perils of raid and robber invading their home while they're away for 2 months..This annual 'ritual' of pilgrimage will be suicidal for the entire clan..
Plus there aren't any record of such massive travel happened anyway...
Choosing another location nearby for annual meetup is much smarter and realistic decision...
All valid points brother. In addition, if Abraham (as) created the first temple at Mecca, how come there is no mention of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.
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The Black stone has never been analysed with modern scientific techniques and its origins remain the subject of speculation.
MYSTERY upon mystery.
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Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.
what had been happening before ABBASID empire was more shocking started from(first fitna) and then so on.
history is filled with BLOOD and myths. -
All valid points brother. In addition, if Abraham (as) created the first temple at Mecca, how come there is no mention of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.
There is no mention "of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.".
There is no mention of them either performing any such pilgrimage anywhere else.
Salaam
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All valid points brother. In addition, if Abraham (as) created the first temple at Mecca, how come there is no mention of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.
Abraham Could Not Built The First Temple
Abraham lived around 1600-2000 BC. If he built a temple then definitely it is not the first or oldest temple that mankind around the globe has built. There's G?bekli Tepe in Anatolia which was built around 8000 BC (Stone Age) and nearby Hebron there's Baalbek complex in Beqa valley with first megalitic foundation built around 4000 BC. And given Abe was natively a Mesopotamian he has witnessed many other temple during his lifetime spread around Tigris and Eufrat river.
So Abraham built the first temple is definitely a myth..
If he indeed built a temple it will not be the oldest temple / first temple.David, Jesus, Moses
There are records which indicate David and Jesus attended festivity / gathering events in Jerusalem.
While for Moses probably he attended festivity / gathering events in Egypt during his youth, while the legend of Exodus told stories he built a mobile makeshift temple during the wandering. I clearly state that the stories of exodus is still a legend as there isn't any archaeological artifacts / evidence to support that such massive events ever took place. Thus cannot be proven yet cannot be disproven also.Holy Places Around The World
But if one observe the human culture / tradition around the world, each tribe / clan / group usually have their own designated place for gathering / festival / meetup events. And all need to fit mandatory criteria of accessibility it should be nearby their dwelling place, maximum 2-3 days of travel.
Native american, for example each clan / tribe have their own designated place for meetup.. thus in USA alone there are more than 100 of such holy places. It doesn't make sense for Apache clan to gather at Hudson river 2000 Km away or at Yucatan 1600 Km away. Yucatan is holy place for the Mayan as they live nearby but nor for the Apachians...
The same thing consistently applied around the globe; The greeks gathered up at Mount Olympus, the Japanese at Mount Fuji, the Javans at Borobudur (This specific case is interesting, but more on that later), The mesopotamian at Tigris Eufrat river and so on and so on....
Summary
Thus there isn't any place defined as 'one and truest holy place' and all humankind must go there or else God will be angry.
Could Mekka be holy place of the nearby tribes? Yes it could be..
Could Ghamadan or Dhul Khalasa in Yemen be holy place of the of the nearby tribes? Yes it could be..
As such there are similar structure of Ghamadan and Dhul Khalasa in Yemen with Kaba in MeccaBut.. Why?
An intriguing questions is actually
Why they need to make a claim that the cube structure in Mecca was built by Abraham?
And they even expand the claim to include that such place was actually designated by Adam???
What is their motivation? what is their objective? -
Salam!
Here is what I think
The First House for human beings was constructed by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, which is the Earth where all enjoyment and provisions are created for rhem. Its ceiling is constructed without pillars and the Lord is established upon its Roof/Throne . This is your Qibla and this is the Truth. Although He, the god, is near than our life vessels still He is established on . Turn your faces towards His throne. Iblis is to attack humans from their front, back, left and right so they need to protect themselves by calling upon God who is the Best Protector. (there is no need of a physical walled house/city to avoid evil). Reflect upon his signs and make sure that He is the only one who can save you from evil. Be obedient to Him and don't do wrong to have His mercy. If you think that you have done something wrong then weep and seek forgiveness and weep/cry as much as you can in order to get His attention and mercy . He will accept your repentence . He will guide you through His messages regarding the right and straight path of living this temporary worldly life . Everyone who calls upon Him only is your brother/sister and member of the House/Family . Ibrahim AS accepted these rules of the House and preached the same.
Note 1 If you are looking for a physical House/ then be sure that the first inhabited walled city was in Jericho in order to protect inhabitants and travellers to be safe from physical dangers like wild animals, lootees, enemies, etc. The second walled city buult by Jews was probably at Jerusalem. Letter means a boundary wall with an entrance/gate.
Note 2 If you are looking for a physical garden where Adam and Eve lived then look for it in Florida. A lot of links point towards Florida/North America.Peace!
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Salaam All,
Here is another possible rendering of 2158'Inna A-af Wa Al-Marwata Min Sha
'iri Allhi Faman ajja Al-Bayta 'Aw Atamara Fal JunaAlayhi 'An Yaawwafa Bihim Wa Man Taawwaa Khayran Fa'inna Allha Shkirun `AlmunIndeed, the stone and the rock outcropping are among the symbols of God. So whoever makes Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error should he traverse them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Thankful, Knowledgeable.
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/roots/Sad-Fa-Waw.html?fbclid=IwAR2LRRQWS1lTZA4waBvFTz2iF9bJnzvMqCnuemjVdPDRkH68o6qutuuEgsk
This seems to fit more in line with Jerusalem. Any thoughts?
