New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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So brother waqas.. you consider Masjid = Acknowledgement nope / Place of Sujud/(submission) / Mosque....
in my understanding NO.... For me Masjid has only one meaning in quran that's sanctuary(natural and Human erected) ....Does any of the occurrences of masjid not fit as sanctuary in quran?
Masjid al Haram = Inviolable time of acknowledgement.... laugh why ? what is the background reason to conclude inviolable time of acknowledgement? is it only the translation or any concrete evidences to support it?
god guide usSalam
If the meaning of masjid is indeed a sanctuary(physical) as you insisted, then I would have expected Archaeologists in the past would have unearthed several thousands ancient masjid all over the world. The reason being that masjid is a crucial word in Islam and within The Deen...if you care to read 3/19 it made it clear that the only deen acceptable in the sight of Allah is Islam which we can safely assume goes back to the time of the first human group e.g Adam et al. If that is still not sufficient you can always check out 42/13 about the deen of Nuh, Ibrahim and others after them.
So, if a masjid is a physical sanctuary whether natural or man made, we surely would have seen archaelogical evidence from at least some ruins of ancient sanctuary dedicated to Allah by the so called muslims but alas to date there is no such evidence existing anywhere in the world.
My suggestion to you brother is to do your own research using all the resources available online such as Qur'anic Concordance, Arabic Dictionaries and Lexica and do your own thinking to draw your own conclusion while asking for guidance from the author of the Qur'an. Your understanding does not have to be the same as other peoples as you know everyone of us at different level of understanding. I do my own interpretation and translation using the available resources but always asking Allah for his guidance.
Salam
almarh0m
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peace all,
During this period when you are in the vicinity of AMAH, Allah will test people by small or large land animals of prey. In case someone hunts and kills an animal, then there will be a punishment while fighting there can be allowed in case of an attack. It suggests that AMAH is a place and not a time period. What do you say?
What verse are you referring to?
Why do you think that Al-Bayt Al-Atiq = Al-Ka'aba = Al-Bayt Al-Haram?
I mention why in the article.
What do you think about this below ayat
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005026 He said So it shall surely be forbidden to them for forty years, they shall wander about in the land, therefore do not grieve for the nation of transgressors.
Did the time of SJD came again after 40 years?I'm not sure. I can't see any obvious connection.
you consider Masjid = Acknowledgement nope / Place of Sujud/(submission) / Mosque..
I'm not sure where you got that from, quote from final article
"Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months)."Note, when you read part 2 it is a work in progress at that point, i.e. no conclusion. It is only until part 3 a conclusion is formed. Just in case that was the confusion.
Does any of the occurrences of masjid not fit as sanctuary in quran?
Masjid al Haram = Inviolable time of acknowledgement.... laugh why ? what is the background reason to conclude inviolable time of acknowledgement? is it only the translation or any concrete evidences to support it?It's all in the article.
Guys, I'm not going to do the work for you. The article is written asking lots of questions. Take your time. Whatever understanding you have, run it through the article, testing the objections raised in the article, see what happens. I am of the view my view fares the strongest, but don't take my word for it, if you want simply review this thread and see what respondents have said, see the "quality" of their objections/replies etc.
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ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE...
if we research we would find.. And we can't say there is no such sanctuaries in the subject oriented places.... If natural then such evidences are much less.. Since it is a simple sanctuary though so many things were involved... Hag or Tabonacles of jews is a good example... They took place in sanctuaries that also with loads of restrictions in sanctuaries ... They call. Masjid(sanctuary) as miqdas... Petra is another... Archealogical evidences always emerging...
When it comes to man made it will be only man made structures... Be it small or big.... Ruined buildings are innumerable but who knows what they were...
SUGGESTION AND RESEARCH...
thank dear... That's my total effort just to trace the truth and seek guidance.... I never ever tell that anyone should take my understanding....thats impossible.. My effort is not for everyone to understand me but pass the message to add to their memory.. In case they are some who in line with me, they would ponder... Everyone who research likes to present their research so new doubts and questions arise....so we develop and further get cultivated...
But I am bit different.. I don't like to end up in my research as mere possibilities but the reality I mean the truth of absolute what God meant by the verse/s.... I don't like ambiguity... Since quran is not ambiguous when it gives instructions to do specialy... Till anyone open my mind with their understanding and research of Quran I remain in my personal understanding.... When I found anyone brought the undeniable truth... I surrender and applaud him or her and accept...coz that's what I look for... Till then I keep questioning with my common sense and reasoning... .
I always welcome good researches from people like u.... There is lot to learn... My dear fellow believer... Why we need in certain subjects the absolute truth is coz we can't divide into groups and sects by difference of opinions... For example.. For Salat... We can't keep saying pray two times three five.. No ritual. Prayers salat is this and that... It's absolute blunder... It won't take us anywhere... What is actually God ordered... That's my aim... Even entire world reject... I will do what God guides me with... But not blinded not closing the door for opinions.. But with neutral and much open mindedly... If we confine ourself before getting convinced with truth, then truth won't look truth.... -
Then We revealed to you ´Follow the deen of Ibrahim, a man of pure natural belief (unmixed). He was not one of the idolaters (mixed / political jurisprudence).´ (16123)
The system (Ibrahim's Faith)
Those who have iman and do not mix up their iman with any wrongdoing, they are the ones who are safe; it is they who are guided.´ This is the argument/SYSTEM We gave to Ibrahim against his people. (682-83)
I have turned my face to Him Who manifested the heavens and earth into being/ENERGY, a pure natural believer/unmixed. I am not one of the mushrikun/political jurisprudence/mixed.´ (679)
https//scontent.fkul7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21462871_1989042347979013_88512864990817718_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul7-1.fna&oh=a31821184410d9d62830ffff7a9ab84d&oe=5CB46D2A
al-Masjid for Paradise / Truth / Iman
al-Haraam for Paradise / Truth / Iman -> Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa171 Exalted (is) the One Who took His servant (by) night (/blindness/ignorance/stupidity/insanity) of/than/whom Al-Masjid Al-Haraam (Unmixed / System of Pure Natural Belief / Natural Justice / Ibrahim's Faith 682 & 679) into Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa (Political Jurisprudence / Forced Justice / farthest/remotest from Truth or Natural Justice / from Pure Natural Belief (Ibrahim's Faith)) which/that We blessed its surroundings (with TRUTH / Ecological Justice), that We may show of Our "Natural" Signs. Indeed He, He (is) the All-Hearer, the All-Seer (in Nature / in Reality).
172 And We gave Musa the Book/Ordain, and made it a guidance for the Children (of) Israel, "That not you take other than Me/Sunnatullah/LordLaw of Nature/al-Masjid (as) a Disposer of affairs."
173 Offsprings (of one) who We carried with Nuh. Indeed, he was a servant grateful.
174 And We decreed for (the) Children (of) Israel in the Book/Ordain, "Surely you will cause corrupt in the earth (Ecological Disorder / al-Haraam) twice, and surely you will reach, haughtiness great."
175 So when came (the) promise (for) the first of the two, We raised against you servants of Ours those of great military might and they entered the inner most part (of) the homes, and (it) was a promise fulfilled.
"O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense." (2530)
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peace all,
What verse are you referring to?
I mention why in the article.
I'm not sure. I can't see any obvious connection.
I'm not sure where you got that from, quote from final article
"Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months)."Note, when you read part 2 it is a work in progress at that point, i.e. no conclusion. It is only until part 3 a conclusion is formed. Just in case that was the confusion.
It's all in the article.
Guys, I'm not going to do the work for you. The article is written asking lots of questions. Take your time. Whatever understanding you have, run it through the article, testing the objections raised in the article, see what happens. I am of the view my view fares the strongest, but don't take my word for it, if you want simply review this thread and see what respondents have said, see the "quality" of their objections/replies etc.
Salam!
@ Wakas!
Sorry for a late reply- What verse are you referring to?
I was referring to 594-97
I have noticed that it has some connection to the Al-Ka'abatu (595, 597) and this Surah 5 mentions in the very first Ayah and in (594-95).
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I mention why in the article.
You have not mentioned clearly. In 597 the word Masjid is not mentioned. What is the difference between Bayt and Masjid (if Masjid means Time of SJD then how can Bayt and Masjid be interchangeable?) -
I'm not sure. I can't see any obvious connection.
See 521-26
and see 258, 4154, 7161,
I think there is a connection.
Peace!
- What verse are you referring to?
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peace,
peace,
Why Qur'an calls kaba/ AMAH as 'ancient house'?(2229) may be an indication that it is the same one used in ancient times for hajj by former prophets (and so is in the future).
Quran doesn't say that in 2229. Although with cross-reference a case can be made it is referring to "al kaabah" / "al bayt al haram", as discussed in the articles.
atiq can mean noble/ancient/liberated/beautiful/generous. I dont think it's possible to conclude its meaning from Quran.
References
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html -
peace,
Why Qur'an calls kaba/ AMAH as 'ancient house'?(2229) may be an indication that it is the same one used in ancient times for hajj by former prophets (and so is in the future).
Root
The basic perception infolded in the Root is to be in the prime of a condition with regard to sanctity, honour, dignity, respect, adoration.
Learned Ibn Faris stated that it combines the perception of a state of par excellence , precedence, that excites admiration, and antiquity .
Lane's Lexicon explains that it means the state of preceding, or having precedence and become safe and secure. The state of emancipation and to become free from the state of slavery.
It is employed to refer to wine kept in a receptacle/jar of which no one has broken the seal upon the mouth of its jar representing its "virginity-sanctity", the state of being untouched and unspoiled. This in fact represents admiration and conviction of its undiluted state for the drinker's point of view, not necessarily the old age of the wine contained therein. Learned Ibn Faris seems to have erred associating antiquity to it wrongly conceiving "sealed wine, liquor" as old wine, and his opinion in this regard is not supported by Grand Qur?n.
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/22.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%2022/5.%20AlAteeqe%20Ain%20Ta%20Qaaf/1.gif It is i.e., Adjective resembling participle Definite; masculine; singular; genitive. The Adjective resembling participle, or termed as Verbal Adjective, is a noun derived from an intransitive verb in order to signify the one who establishes an action with the meaning of permanence. This participle is used to indicate on an attribute for both the active voice as well as the passive. In other words, it is used in place of the active participle as well as the passive participle.
The context is the address to Iebra'heim who raised this First House- from foundations for the first time, on a plot/piece of land identified and earmarked for him by Allah, the Exalted. Thereby, it is beyond imagination to attribute meanings of antiquity to it.
Further study
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(935).htm
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peace Mazhar, all,
I was able to get clarification on the grammar issues discussed previously between Mazhar and myself.
I asked bro uq (who is fairly knowledgeable of Arabic)
Mazhar seems to be claiming that in 2149 & 2150 the phrase "and from wherever thou exit" can ONLY refer to "al masjid al haram", i.e. the place exited from is "al masjid al haram", thus it can only be translated as
"and from wherever thou exit it (al masjid al hram) so turn your face..."
- that "haythu" can only mean wherever when it is followed by "ma", so in 2!49 for example it cannot mean "wherever"
For further reading you can see from here onwards
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg418115#msg418115He replied
(1) There is no grammatical rule that would restrict 2149-150 to al-masjid al-haram, it is a contextual inference. It can refer to (a) al-masjid al-haram or (b) any place from which one has journeyed/left. Because this is a contextual inference, one cannot claim with absolute conviction that it refers to (a) or (b).
(2) Yes, that's correct. However, can carry a similar meaning to wherever if used indefinitely.
Re 2)
I dont see how changing "... and from wherever..." to "and from where..." changes anything in these verses. I will think it over. -
peace Mazhar, all,
I was able to get clarification on the grammar issues discussed previously between Mazhar and myself.
I asked bro uq (who is fairly knowledgeable of Arabic)
He replied
(1) There is no grammatical rule that would restrict 2149-150 to al-masjid al-haram, it is a contextual inference. It can refer to (a) al-masjid al-haram or (b) any place from which one has journeyed/left. Because this is a contextual inference, one cannot claim with absolute conviction that it refers to (a) or (b).
(2) Yes, that's correct. However, can carry a similar meaning to wherever if used indefinitely.
Re 2)
I dont see how changing "... and from wherever..." to "and from where..." changes anything in these verses. I will think it over.Adverb of location, always in construct with a following sentence
And O you the Messenger! from whatever direction you exited the Sacred Mosque, Thereby, for reason of being distant from it, cause your self face to face the dimension of the Sacred Mosque.
And you the believers whatever direction you left the Sacred Mosque, thereafter for reason of being outside-distant from it, cause your self face to face its (Sacred Mosque) dimension ?
In the second sentence the verb of exit is elided, One exits from a place having demarcated boundaries. The suffixed masculine pronoun in refers back to
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peace Wakas,
if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?
"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise."
irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.
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peace Wakas,
if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?
"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise."
irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.034/150.%20Isjidoo%20Seen%20Jeem%20Daal/4.gif
Locative Noun-Adverb of Place - ظرف المكان --It is a noun derived from imperfect verb. An adverb of place always talks about the location where the action of the verb is being carried out. Adverb of place tells us where something happens. They are usually placed after the main verb or after the clause that they modify. Adverbs of place do not modify adjectives or other adverbs.
وَلَا تُبَٟشِـرُوهُنَّ وَأَنتُـمْ عَٟكِفُونَ فِـى ٱلْمَسَٟجِدِۗ
Take note; you people should not establish intimate mutually consented matrimonial contact-intercourse on visiting them (respective wives) during the currency of the period you are devotee in reclusion inside the Mosques.
Preposition فِـى Rest in a place or during a time, and motion into a place. This signification is then transferred to the relation subsisting between any two things, the one of which is regarded as the place in which the other is, or happens, or into which it goes or is put.
A place is for entering into it and getting out of it
وَصَدٌّ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَكُفْرُۢ بِهِۦ وَٱلْمَسْجِدِ ٱلْحَرَامِ وَإِخْرَاجُ أَهْلِهِۦ مِنْهُ أَكْبَـرُ عِندَ ٱللَّهِۚ
But take note that the act of hindering people from the Path of Allah the Exalted and persistent denial of it and restraining people from the sacred Mosque, and causing expulsion of its residents is a far greater matter in the sight of Allah the Exalted".
إِخْرَاجُ to cause exit, expel.
مَا كَانَ لِلْمُشْـرِكِيـنَ أَن يَعْمُـرُوا۟ مَسَٟجِدَ ٱللَّهِ شَٟهِدِينَ عَلَـىٰٓ أَنفُسِهِـم بِالْـكُـفْـرِۚ
Their visiting and managing the Mosques of Allah the Exalted has never been desirable for the Idol Worshipers-Polytheists being aware-witness upon their selves of disbelief.
It shows at the time of revelation, there existed at least three mosques in Arabian peninsula.
وَٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ مَسْجِدٙا ضِرَارٙا وَكُفْرٙا وَتَفْرِيقَاۢ بَيْـنَ ٱلْمُؤْمِنِيـنَ
And as for those who had earlier adopted a mosque for causing harm and disbelief and a state of division-disintegration amongst the believers —
وَإِرْصَادٙا لِّمَنْ حَارَبَ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ مِن قَبْلُۚ
And as a launching pad-station for him who foretimes intrigued-battled against Allah the Exalted and His Messenger
وَلَيَحْلِفُنَّ إِنْ أَرَدْنَآ إِلَّا ٱلْحُسْنَىٰۖ
They will certainly swear and say "We intended nothing except good".
وَٱللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّـهُـمْ لَـكَـٟذِبُونَ .9107١٠٧
Mind it, Allah the Exalted bears witness emphasizing that they are certainly the liars.
لَا تَقُمْ فِيهِ أَبَدٙاۚ
You the Messenger should never ever stand within that mosque.
I hope it suffices to prove this location adverb is certainly spatial.
Masjid is there ever since House of Allah the Exalted was built by Ibrahim and Ismail alahissalam. It predates Qur'an (not Islam).
إِنْ أَحْسَنتُـمْ أَحْسَنتُـمْ لِأَنفُسِكُـمْۖ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُـمْ فَلَـهَاۚ
"If you acted modestly, gracefully and generously you would have done it for your own selves, and if you people did evil, thereby, you will have to suffer its effect."
فَإِذَا جَآءَ وَعْدُ ٱلۡءَاخِـرَةِ
Eventually, when the time of second of the two promised occasions reached —
لِيَسُـــُٔووا۟ۥٓ وُجُوهَكُـمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُوا۟ ٱلْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَـرَّةٛ
Our Majesty appointed those mighty ones so that they may depress and sadden your faces, and so that they may enter the Mosque just as they had entered on the first occasion —
وَلِيُتَبِّـرُوا۟ مَا عَلَوْا۟ تَتْبِيـرٙا .1707٧
And so that they smash what they had conquered, quite destructively.
لِيَدْخُلُوا۟ We enter into a demarcated place.
قَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ غَلَبُوا۟ عَلَـىٰٓ أَمْرِهِـمْ
Those who dominantly prevailed the debate, regarding the matter pertaining to the Young men of Cave, confidently said,
لَنَتَّخِذَنَّ عَلَيْـهِـم مَّسْجِدٙا .1821٢١
"Surely, we pledge that in future we will adopt the newly built memorial over them as a mosque."
One object of verb is elided. They were inside the Cave. The place upon them is obviously the roof of the cave. They were to built the memorial over there and hold it as mosque.
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It looks a place of pilgrimage, where people spend time/days with certain rules and restrictions, disciplinary life, May be the temple the symbol of pilgrimage is ancient and during Mohammed's time different religions started claiming it and Muslims after becoming majority sect completely dominated and prevented others visiting it. Quran claims others should not visit it from that year as they are 'Impure'.
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peace,
peace Wakas,
if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?
"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise."
irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.
I can appreciate this objection. I have discussed this previously, e.g.
Some confusion may be resulting from not appreciating that AMAH is a reference for the time-period/event of the inviolable months wherein al hajj is held and various restrictions/guidelines are in place at a locality.
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608271.msg383916#msg383916
In the article, I propose it is referring to the specific mushrikeen in context, i.e. those who violated the treaty.
al hajj /the commemoration, is an event, taking place within the inviolable months, in a designated location. In this location various regulations are in place, run by the community. At this point in time, the believers had triumphed (i.e. the majority) thus going forward they were in charge of this event and the regulation of it. If they make a treaty with whoever, they can determine who attends, trades etc.
To be fair, this understanding requires understanding to some extent the chronology in Quran (especially the latter revealed chapters, e.g. 9), and how at the end the believers seemed to be forming into a confederation.I am of the view the believers used this event to converge upon one location, leading to triumph. This can be understood in the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html -
peace Wakas,
This is what my observation of your responses for my posts
It seems the contexts starting from the verse 142 in chapter 2 denotes an issue related to geographical direction because, the answer for the question (of the ignorant/foolish) in the beginning verse (with the terms ‘wallaa' and ‘qibla' itself involves geographical directions, i.e. Mashriq & Maghrib.
Your answer was irrelevant. The verse itself mentions geographical directions.
Why Qur'an calls kaba/ AMAH as 'ancient house'?(2229) may be an indication that it is the same one used in ancient times for hajj by former prophets (and so is in the future).
You don’t have enough evidence to disprove the commonly understood meaning of العتيق
if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?
"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise."
irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.
You didn’t give/you don’t have a straight answer.
If your theory is the right one/ the truth, you can easily give straight answers to these kinds of questions.
Also, as per your Hajj article, Hajj can take place at a number of places at the same time i.e. there can be more than one makkah, alka’ba etc. But nowhere the Qur’an hints such a possibility/ nowhere the Qur’an mentions/expresses makkah, alka’ba etc.in such a manner (e.g. in plural forms)
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peace Mohammed,
The issue you point out actually reduces the likelihood of your position, as it requires readers to accept Quran mentions physical directions are irrelevant (east and west) then appoints a physical direction. Doesn't make sense to me but each to their own.
By asking why does Quran not use plural of makkah and/or kaabah shows you have not understood these terms as mentioned in my articles.
My view is "makkah" simply means "crowding", and "al kaabah" simply means the base or the elevation and is specific to the locality wherein al hajj was held at the time. Think of it as a known area/landmark and such a boundary/demarcation is a logical necessity when hosting an event such as al hajj which has various regulations enacted in a specific locality.
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Salamun Alaikum
Al Masjid al Haram simply means The Law, which law you may ask? It could be the law/commandments/guidance of Allah and/or the law of the land where people resides. Why else are we told to turn our faces towards al Masjid al Haram wherever we are, if it is not the law? Since to literally turn your faces towards amah is a physical impossibility.
Peace
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peace almarh0m,
You have mentioned your "the law" theory before, and as I suggested to you then the article provides a checklist to run any understanding through to see if it fits, what issues arise (if any) etc.
It is unfortunate that even those who follow a Quran based islam will claim X but do not even do (what I consider to be) the basics to verify them, yet they keep on claiming X. This type of practice is rife amongst Traditionalists.
