Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
-
peace good logic,
The same term ‘Ayyamn ma’doodat’ is used in Hajj verse(2203), where the count is 3-10(2196, 189)
2203 "And remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat, so who hurried in two days, so no sin on him, and who delayed…"
The context of 2203 is Hajj, so
remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat = remember God in Hajj days -----------------(1)2196 says “so fasting three days in the Hajj” => normal Hajj days are 3 ---------------(2)
Combining (1) & (2)
remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat => remember God in Hajj days => remember God in 3 days (normal case).Applying in 2203,
"And remember God in Ayyamn ma’doodat/3 days(normal case), so who hurried in 2 days, so no sin on him, and who delayed…"Now we have to find the extent of delaying (i.e. 3+), Coming back to 2196
“…so what became easy/possible from the offering, so who does not find, so fasting three days in the Hajj, and seven (days) if/when you returned, that is ten complete (days), that (is) to whom not is his family present (near/at) the Temple the Forbidden/Sacred...”
The remaining 7 days of fasting is also part of the Hajj. Isn’t it?
i.e. among those who cannot find an offering, the natives of the Sacred Temple complete their remaining part(fasting) of Hajj by 7 more days of fasting. So they can continue their Hajj practices in these 7 days if they want to delay/do more. This is also applicable for non-natives if they do not want to return after 3 days. See 2196(..and seven (days) if/when you returned..).i.e. maxmum Hajj days are 10. It’s also observed from 2189 (Full moon to crescent stage)
Quote from article http//islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html
“We also know from 2189 that we should come into houses from the obvious front doors and not from the obscure backs. This hints to us that the "7ajj"/debate starts with the obvious full moon and that the unobvious crescent is what ends the "7ajj"/debate. This way it lasts for 10 total days, which is the exact period from full-moon to crescent”Thus Ayyamn ma’doodat = 3-10 days.
Still, do you think shahr=the whole lunar cycle?
How can you imagine ~continuous 60 days of starvation(day time+Fajr) as punishment/compensation for carelessness?( i.e. for killing a believer by mistake/by accident/without any intention. -492)
But if shahr = Full-moon, two consecutive full-moons is no that much hard i.e. 10 days(since crescents provide timing -2189) of the 1st full-moon, then after ~20 days interval (no sawm) again 10 days from the next full-moon.(equivalent to two Ramadan)
-
Peace Mohammed.
I disagree with you.
Two different subjects/topics/?
I am talking about Sawm on its own not Hajj. mixed with sawm!!!!Your post is irrelevant.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
How can you imagine ~continuous 60 days of starvation(day time+Fajr) as punishment/compensation for carelessness?( i.e. for killing a believer by mistake/by accident/without any intention. -492)
He would already be in deep distress for what happened to his companion by his hand.
-
Peace Mohammed.
I disagree with you.
Two different subjects/topics/?
I am talking about Sawm on its own not Hajj. mixed with sawm!!!!Your post is irrelevant.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Salam Good logic,Mohammed,
From my point of view, even if we disagree with the definition of the word "Shahr", Mohammed was right when He pointed towards ayats number 2196 (the word SIYAM appears) and 2203. All is linked, connected in the Quran as i try to demonstrate through Rhetorical analysis of the text (start from his context and don't make of this text a pretext!).
The problem, as you raised Good logic, it fits the definition of the word SIYAM.
In traditionnal view there is not a lot of difference SIYAM is about "fasting from food, sex and drink" (Arabic root) and SWAM is about "fasting from speaking" (Probably Hebrew root). But if it was not the case...I let here the debate coz It is not the main subject of this thread.
I already provided parts of the answer by analysing the CRUCIAL importance of the ayat 2240 here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610597.msg423877#msg423877As i mentionned above, ayats 2183-184 and 2185-187 are 2 parts of a same subject (From the general to the particular).
and it is another quranic proof for saying "Ayaman Maadoudat" is about 3-10 days.
But ,the segment in 2185 "and, who is sick or traveling, then, determination of other days. God desires for you the facility and not the difficulty " put the problem of an apparent repetition since it has already been said in 2184" but who of you is sick or traveling, then determination of other days ". However, we note in 2184 the presence of a collective "among you" (minkum). On the other hand, since it is said in 2185 "who is sick or on a journey" without this same brand of the collective, it is now that this concerns those who among the belivers are committed to make a SIYAM." And it confirms our analysis of the Rhetorical analysis of this part of text.Peace
-
I just said that traditionnal view don't make a big difference between SAWM and SIYAM by using for both the word FASTING.
Yes, as God explains it in the QURAN, SWAM means "Fasting from speaking to others (silence - please meditate on this)". But SIYAM doesn't mean FASTING coz you have a problem with ayat 2185 (as i mentionned many times).I had a look at your translation of ayat 2185 to know how you bypass questions concerning this grammatical point (falyaum'hu) and it confirms you change what god says to be conform to your own vision of SIYAM.
What the Quran literally says
- So whoever witnesses among you the month then he should "???" it.
Your tanslation (some words in red don't even appear !)
- Therefore, if he who reaching adulthood amongst you was present at home in this month, thereat, he should observe it by fasting.
-
I had a look at your translation of ayat 2185 to know how you bypass questions concerning this grammatical point (falyaum'hu) and it confirms you change what god says to be conform to your own vision of SIYAM.
What the Quran literally says
- So whoever witnesses among you the month then he should "???" it.
Perhaps I twice asked you to learn as to what type of verb is whereby you could perceive what means get added.
-
Salam,
A-Quran uses twice the verbal form I of the noun iym (م http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(218517)
Verb (form I) - to "fast" =>
(218427) tam -
V ? 2nd person masculine plural imperfect verb, subjunctive mood
PRON ? subject pronoun(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT ? prefixed result particle
IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lm
V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun2 remarks about these "mood"
-
subjunctive mood = Subjunctive forms of verbs are typically used to express various states of unreality such as wish, emotion, possibility, judgement, opinion..It is confirmed by the Quran in 2184 when he says "tam is better for you if you know". It confirms the definition of the word "kutiba" in 2183 as "Strongly recommended, invited to.." but not an absolute obligation in "d?n".
We can also understand why God tells us, in 2183-184, Something about "fid'yatun" = ransom... -
"jussive mood" = The jussive (abbreviated JUS) is a grammatical mood of verbs for issuing orders, commanding etc..
So, in one case (2183-184), God ask us strongly "to make a SIYAM" without obligation and in 2185-187 to "make a SIYAM" but with obligation. It is an apparent contradiction ! Impossible for "ahl al-quran" (people of the Quran).
It confirms what express the rhetorical analysis of these ayats (2183-187) that we have 2 blocks (but linked together)
-
2183-184 => General recommendation with a number known by arabs (for me 10 days) without obligation
-
2185-187 => Details about how to make a siyam for people who commit to do it.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Example of Jussive mood in arabic - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jussive_mood#Arabic =>
"
The jussive is used after the preposition li- 'to' to express a command to a third person.li-yaf?al-hu
to-do.jus.3sg.masc-it
'Let him do it.'
"
The same scheme in (2185) ! "then he should "fast" it." => another translation is wrong (Just the word "fast" is incorrect coz it is an intransitive verb). Otherwise it manipulates (good intention or not) what god says. It is clear.-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Example of Jussive mood in arabic - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Peace
-
-
(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT ? prefixed result particle
IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lm
V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronounGood, this is the approach. Now also mention Baab of the verb. I think you know the concept of additional - special meanings of Baab.
-
The approach is GLOBAL.Examining all SIGNS from god is more important.
Give us more detail about the set pattern of the baabs using in 2185 and his implication in his understanding, if you want (with reference if possible). Thanks.
Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.
--
The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
-
Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.
The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.
--
The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.
Thank you, it confirms my view, but it changes not really what God says here !
Even "exhausting the month by fasting." is very confusing...So much cunning to try to twist the meaning of this sentence.Sorry, but are you blind about the use of SIYAM here (re-read also above my post about "Example of Jussive mood in arabic" - so clear..)
(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT prefixed result particle
IMPV prefixed imperative particle lm
V 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON 3rd person masculine singular object pronounFasting is not APPROPRIATE. Its is INCORRECT. God gives you signs to be sure to not to be wrong.
By using the PRON God indicates you that fasting is not the good meaning.Moreover, the form of this verb is the FORM I
Form 1 - (fa3ala)
Expresses the general verbal meaning of the root in questionSo the root SWM (Fasting/abstaining) is not exactly the same then SYM (using here in 2185).
NB it is my last message on this thread about the root SIYAM coz i deviate from the main subject, even if all is linked (probably an another thread will be open to evaluate it - God willing)
-
peace good logic,
I never mixed sawm in Ramadan with that in Hajj.
The title of my post is/was What is Ayyamin ma’doodat according to the Qur’anpeace Iyyaka,
Probably, the reason for the difference (sawm/swiyaam) would be,
Maryam’s sawm was only for one day (singular)
1926
…so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to The Merciful, a sawm/fast/abstinence, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human/humankind.And in other occurrences (e.g. 2183, 187, 196, 589) sawm is for more than one day/minimum 3days, that’s why swiyaam (plural).
And Maryam’s sawm was a special sawm, therefore it cannot be compared with sawm(swiyaam) in Ramadan.
-
Peace Mohammed.
My point is this
How few are "Ayam Maadudat"? It depends on the measure given.
Like 29/30 days in the context of 365 days are "Ayam Maadudat", Why not?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Yes Mohammed, I agree.
Qoran says"Faman Shahida Minkum Al Shahr Fal Yasumhu?" i.e Yasumu Al Shahr? Or Yasumu how many days?.
It remains a question for you How many days does Qoran say ?For me , until clear evidence is shown, my current understanding is "Sawm is for one month", i.e how many days depends on the total days of the month...29/30,...
If you read carefully the thread,, you will find a lot of personal opinions and assumptions. No evidence from Qoran.
So my personal understanding ,the one I am responsible for, remains.
Of course you are also entitled to yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
For me , until clear evidence is shown, my current understanding is "Sawm is for one month", i.e how many days depends on the total days of the month...29/30,...
If you read carefully the thread,, you will find a lot of personal opinions and assumptions. No evidence from Qoran.
So my personal understanding ,the one I am responsible for, remains.
Of course you are also entitled to yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Salam Good logic,
Not agree of course.
If you read carefully the thread you will find a lot of evidences from Qoran (grammatical, dictionnary, rhetorical analysis, "Tarteel "..). But your opinion is already done.You said "Sawm is for one month". Again, in 2185 it is not about Sawm but Siyam...(This one is For Mohammed too).
Peace
-
Thank you, it confirms my view, but it changes not really what God says here !
Even "exhausting the month by fasting." is very confusing...So much cunning to try to twist the meaning of this sentence.Sorry, but are you blind about the use of SIYAM here (re-read also above my post about "Example of Jussive mood in arabic" - so clear..)
(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT ? prefixed result particle
IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lm
V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronounFasting is not APPROPRIATE. Its is INCORRECT. God gives you signs to be sure to not to be wrong.
By using the PRON God indicates you that fasting is not the good meaning.Moreover, the form of this verb is the FORM I
Form 1 - (fa3ala)
Expresses the general verbal meaning of the root in questionSo the root SWM (Fasting/abstaining) is not exactly the same then SYM (using here in 2185).
NB it is my last message on this thread about the root SIYAM coz i deviate from the main subject, even if all is linked (probably an another thread will be open to evaluate it - God willing)
Irrelevant post, repetition of details is ones sickness.
Passing the month, you pass the time, you exhaust a duration, you cross over the time. Month is a duration, Time Adverb,
Now I have yet to tell you to see what are the rules for spelling those verbs who have middle consonant of Root as Waw. Get some book on Morphology and study it before considering others blind.
-
Irrelevant post, repetition of details is ones sickness.
Passing the month, you pass the time, you exhaust a duration, you cross over the time. Month is a duration, Time Adverb,
Now I have yet to tell you to see what are the rules for spelling those verbs who have middle consonant of Root as Waw. Get some book on Morphology and study it before considering others blind.
I apologize if I offended you ("Blind" was in a sense of "intellectual blind" on THIS particular subject of quranic expression - otherwise i have a lot of respect for your work).
And thank you for your advice but before i am going to look at grammatical basic rules books to try to understand why i am wrong (sorry i repeat again but you know why now) by reminding
-
Translate the verbal form of the word SIYAM in English, in 2185, by the verb "To FAST" is incorrect because it is an INTRANSITIVE verb. Except if you modify the literal meaning. Every person decides what he or she does.
-
The arabic use of the "PRON 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun"
-
-
I apologize if I offended you ("Blind" was in a sense of "intellectual blind" on THIS particular subject of quranic expression - otherwise i have a lot of respect for your work).
And thank you for your advice but before i am going to look at grammatical basic rules books to try to understand why i am wrong (sorry i repeat again but you know why now) by reminding
-
Translate the verbal form of the word SIYAM in English, in 2185, by the verb "To FAST" is incorrect because it is an INTRANSITIVE verb. Except if you modify the literal meaning. Every person decides what he or she does.
-
The arabic use of the "PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun"
Why I proposed to study morphology? Reread your own this post you may get the point.
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/9.gif
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/8.gif
What type of noun they are?
They are VERBAL Noun. And then study what is denoted by a verbal noun. May be it helps you to erase what has got internalized for lack of complete information.
A verbal noun denotes action or state without time reference relating to concept inherent in the Root. Third person singular masculine perfect verb is made from Verbal Noun.
-