Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?

Iyyaka

Salam,

A-Quran uses twice the verbal form I of the noun iym (&#1605 http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(218517)

Verb (form I) - to "fast" =>

(218427) tam -
V ? 2nd person masculine plural imperfect verb, subjunctive mood
PRON ? subject pronoun

(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT ? prefixed result particle
IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lm
V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

2 remarks about these "mood"

subjunctive mood = Subjunctive forms of verbs are typically used to express various states of unreality such as wish, emotion, possibility, judgement, opinion..It is confirmed by the Quran in 2184 when he says "tam is better for you if you know". It confirms the definition of the word "kutiba" in 2183 as "Strongly recommended, invited to.." but not an absolute obligation in "d?n".
We can also understand why God tells us, in 2183-184, Something about "fid'yatun" = ransom...
"jussive mood" = The jussive (abbreviated JUS) is a grammatical mood of verbs for issuing orders, commanding etc..

So, in one case (2183-184), God ask us strongly "to make a SIYAM" without obligation and in 2185-187 to "make a SIYAM" but with obligation. It is an apparent contradiction ! Impossible for "ahl al-quran" (people of the Quran).

It confirms what express the rhetorical analysis of these ayats (2183-187) that we have 2 blocks (but linked together)

2183-184 => General recommendation with a number known by arabs (for me 10 days) without obligation
2185-187 => Details about how to make a siyam for people who commit to do it.
- - - - Example of Jussive mood in arabic - - - - - - - - - - - - -

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jussive_mood#Arabic =>
"
The jussive is used after the preposition li- 'to' to express a command to a third person.

li-yaf?al-hu
to-do.jus.3sg.masc-it
'Let him do it.'
"
The same scheme in (2185) ! "then he should "fast" it." => another translation is wrong (Just the word "fast" is incorrect coz it is an intransitive verb). Otherwise it manipulates (good intention or not) what god says. It is clear.

- - - - Example of Jussive mood in arabic - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Peace

Mazhar

(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT ? prefixed result particle
IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lm
V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

Good, this is the approach. Now also mention Baab of the verb. I think you know the concept of additional - special meanings of Baab.

Iyyaka

The approach is GLOBAL.Examining all SIGNS from god is more important.

Give us more detail about the set pattern of the baabs using in 2185 and his implication in his understanding, if you want (with reference if possible). Thanks.

Mazhar

The approach is GLOBAL.Examining all SIGNS from god is more important.

Give us more detail about the set pattern of the baabs using in 2185 and his implication in his understanding, if you want (with reference if possible). Thanks.

Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.

--

The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.

Iyyaka

Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.

The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.

Baab are with regard to vowel on the second radical.

--

The verb in question is on pattern ---. Its peculiarity with regard to addition of meanings is to overpower. When it is with regard to fasting and the object is particular month, it will denote passing the month - exhausting the month by fasting.

Thank you, it confirms my view, but it changes not really what God says here !
Even "exhausting the month by fasting." is very confusing...So much cunning to try to twist the meaning of this sentence.

Sorry, but are you blind about the use of SIYAM here (re-read also above my post about "Example of Jussive mood in arabic" - so clear..)

(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT prefixed result particle
IMPV prefixed imperative particle lm
V 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

Fasting is not APPROPRIATE. Its is INCORRECT. God gives you signs to be sure to not to be wrong.
By using the PRON God indicates you that fasting is not the good meaning.

Moreover, the form of this verb is the FORM I

Form 1 - (fa3ala)
Expresses the general verbal meaning of the root in question

So the root SWM (Fasting/abstaining) is not exactly the same then SYM (using here in 2185).

NB it is my last message on this thread about the root SIYAM coz i deviate from the main subject, even if all is linked (probably an another thread will be open to evaluate it - God willing)

Mohammed_

peace good logic,

I never mixed sawm in Ramadan with that in Hajj.
The title of my post is/was What is Ayyamin ma’doodat according to the Qur’an

peace Iyyaka,

Probably, the reason for the difference (sawm/swiyaam) would be,

Maryam’s sawm was only for one day (singular)

1926
…so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to The Merciful, a sawm/fast/abstinence, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human/humankind.

And in other occurrences (e.g. 2183, 187, 196, 589) sawm is for more than one day/minimum 3days, that’s why swiyaam (plural).

And Maryam’s sawm was a special sawm, therefore it cannot be compared with sawm(swiyaam) in Ramadan.

good_logic

Peace Mohammed.
My point is this
How few are "Ayam Maadudat"? It depends on the measure given.
Like 29/30 days in the context of 365 days are "Ayam Maadudat", Why not?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mohammed_

The only source/guidance we have is the Qur'an.

So, if God says 'Ayym madoodat' for Ramadan, then the Qur'an itself should have the count of 'Ayym madoodat'.

Other than the Qur'an where we'll refer?

good_logic

Yes Mohammed, I agree.
Qoran says"Faman Shahida Minkum Al Shahr Fal Yasumhu?" i.e Yasumu Al Shahr? Or Yasumu how many days?.
It remains a question for you How many days does Qoran say ?

For me , until clear evidence is shown, my current understanding is "Sawm is for one month", i.e how many days depends on the total days of the month...29/30,...

If you read carefully the thread,, you will find a lot of personal opinions and assumptions. No evidence from Qoran.
So my personal understanding ,the one I am responsible for, remains.
Of course you are also entitled to yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Iyyaka

For me , until clear evidence is shown, my current understanding is "Sawm is for one month", i.e how many days depends on the total days of the month...29/30,...

If you read carefully the thread,, you will find a lot of personal opinions and assumptions. No evidence from Qoran.
So my personal understanding ,the one I am responsible for, remains.
Of course you are also entitled to yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salam Good logic,

Not agree of course.
If you read carefully the thread you will find a lot of evidences from Qoran (grammatical, dictionnary, rhetorical analysis, "Tarteel "..). But your opinion is already done.

You said "Sawm is for one month". Again, in 2185 it is not about Sawm but Siyam...(This one is For Mohammed too).

Peace

Mazhar

Thank you, it confirms my view, but it changes not really what God says here !
Even "exhausting the month by fasting." is very confusing...So much cunning to try to twist the meaning of this sentence.

Sorry, but are you blind about the use of SIYAM here (re-read also above my post about "Example of Jussive mood in arabic" - so clear..)

(218517) falyaum'hu -
RSLT ? prefixed result particle
IMPV ? prefixed imperative particle lm
V ? 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun

Fasting is not APPROPRIATE. Its is INCORRECT. God gives you signs to be sure to not to be wrong.
By using the PRON God indicates you that fasting is not the good meaning.

Moreover, the form of this verb is the FORM I

Form 1 - (fa3ala)
Expresses the general verbal meaning of the root in question

So the root SWM (Fasting/abstaining) is not exactly the same then SYM (using here in 2185).

NB it is my last message on this thread about the root SIYAM coz i deviate from the main subject, even if all is linked (probably an another thread will be open to evaluate it - God willing)

Irrelevant post, repetition of details is ones sickness.

Passing the month, you pass the time, you exhaust a duration, you cross over the time. Month is a duration, Time Adverb,

Now I have yet to tell you to see what are the rules for spelling those verbs who have middle consonant of Root as Waw. Get some book on Morphology and study it before considering others blind.

Iyyaka

Irrelevant post, repetition of details is ones sickness.

Passing the month, you pass the time, you exhaust a duration, you cross over the time. Month is a duration, Time Adverb,

Now I have yet to tell you to see what are the rules for spelling those verbs who have middle consonant of Root as Waw. Get some book on Morphology and study it before considering others blind.

I apologize if I offended you ("Blind" was in a sense of "intellectual blind" on THIS particular subject of quranic expression - otherwise i have a lot of respect for your work).

And thank you for your advice but before i am going to look at grammatical basic rules books to try to understand why i am wrong (sorry i repeat again but you know why now) by reminding

Translate the verbal form of the word SIYAM in English, in 2185, by the verb "To FAST" is incorrect because it is an INTRANSITIVE verb. Except if you modify the literal meaning. Every person decides what he or she does.
The arabic use of the "PRON 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun"

Mazhar

I apologize if I offended you ("Blind" was in a sense of "intellectual blind" on THIS particular subject of quranic expression - otherwise i have a lot of respect for your work).

And thank you for your advice but before i am going to look at grammatical basic rules books to try to understand why i am wrong (sorry i repeat again but you know why now) by reminding

Translate the verbal form of the word SIYAM in English, in 2185, by the verb "To FAST" is incorrect because it is an INTRANSITIVE verb. Except if you modify the literal meaning. Every person decides what he or she does.
The arabic use of the "PRON ? 3rd person masculine singular object pronoun"

Why I proposed to study morphology? Reread your own this post you may get the point.

http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/9.gif

http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/8.gif

What type of noun they are?

They are VERBAL Noun. And then study what is denoted by a verbal noun. May be it helps you to erase what has got internalized for lack of complete information.

A verbal noun denotes action or state without time reference relating to concept inherent in the Root. Third person singular masculine perfect verb is made from Verbal Noun.

Iyyaka

Let me suggest these studies also

Biliteral root of the letters SAD and MIIM
The general definition of the letter WAW and ALIF
Quran gives us the good definition of the noun SWAM (easy) and SIYAM (easy too!).
It is so obvious that i couldn't believe the first time. The marvel is before our eyes !
The problem is that we look at the quran through a veil of traditionnal knowledge that can deviate from the original meaning.
We impose our ideas pre-conceived on the text without even realizing it..and i realized i was the first to work like this..

Mazhar

Let me suggest these studies also

Biliteral root of the letters SAD and MIIM
The general definition of the letter WAW and ALIF
Quran gives us the good definition of the noun SWAM (easy) and SIYAM (easy too!).
It is so obvious that i couldn't believe the first time. The marvel is before our eyes !
The problem is that we look at the quran through a veil of traditionnal knowledge that can deviate from the original meaning.
We impose our ideas pre-conceived on the text without even realizing it..and i realized i was the first to work like this..

Quote some source you obtained these Roots.

Iyyaka

Quote some source you obtained these Roots.

Small basic bibliography (but in french sorry)

Belot, Jean-Baptiste (1955), Dictionnaire arabe-français « El-faraïd », Beyrouth, Imprimerie catholique.
Bohas, Georges (1997), Matrices, Étymons, Racines, Leuven-Paris, Peeters.
Bohas G., Bachmar K. (2014), Les étymons en arabe. Analyse formelle et sémantique. Recherches, n°23, Beyrouth, Dar El-Machreq.
Kazimirski, A. de Biberstein (1860), Dictionnaire arabe-français, Paris, Maisonneuve et Cie.
Khatef, Laïla, Statut de la troisième radicale en arabe le croisement des étymons, thèse de doctorat soutenue à l’Université Paris 8 en 2003.

Al quran of course ! and first..I think you know http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm. So you can compare triliteral roots arabic where these 2 roots are associated.
History of alphabet arabic and starting with https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

Mazhar

Small basic bibliography (but in french sorry)

Belot, Jean-Baptiste (1955), Dictionnaire arabe-français « El-faraïd », Beyrouth, Imprimerie catholique.
Bohas, Georges (1997), Matrices, Étymons, Racines, Leuven-Paris, Peeters.
Bohas G., Bachmar K. (2014), Les étymons en arabe. Analyse formelle et sémantique. Recherches, n°23, Beyrouth, Dar El-Machreq.
Kazimirski, A. de Biberstein (1860), Dictionnaire arabe-français, Paris, Maisonneuve et Cie.
Khatef, Laïla, Statut de la troisième radicale en arabe le croisement des étymons, thèse de doctorat soutenue à l’Université Paris 8 en 2003.

Al quran of course ! and first..I think you know http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm. So you can compare triliteral roots arabic where these 2 roots are associated.
History of alphabet arabic and starting with https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

Nothing relevant to the question. Where is a Root with only Two consonants?

Iyyaka

Salam,

Here is a small interesting Quranic study to complete my study about the meaning of the word ma'dūdātin as a "weak plural form" (between 3 and 10) in (2184).

Let's compare two verses (From "The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation))

(1243) 1243 And the king said "I'm still going to be dreaming of being fat with seven thin ones, and seven (multiple) green pods and some others who are dry. vision means if you are able to interpret the visions. "
(2261) The example of those who spend their money in the cause of God is like a seed that sprouts seven (multiple) pods, in each pod there is one hundred seeds; and God multiplies for whoever He chooses, and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

What interests us here is the comparison between identical expressions in the English translation but with a slight subtle difference in Arabic

(1243) "wasab'a / multiple sunbulātin / ears (of corn)
(2261) "sab'a / multiple sanābila / ears (of corn)

Why this difference wanted by God? Because it is context dependent

(1243) Context of dearth period = A weak Plural form which expresses this dearth period (a few..)
(2261) Context of abundance = A strong Plural form which expresses this generosity (a lot ..)

Now, the ending of the word sunbulātin in (1243) corresponds to the ending of the word ma'dūdātin in 2184.

We can admire the precision of the Quranic language that does not always glimpse its translation into other languages such as English or French.

Peace.

ade_cool

You know Brother classical dictionnary are useful but keep in mind that you can find almost all what you want to justify your OWN interpretation of texts (quran here - Cf. below).
This research must be confirmed by EVIDENCES (quran himself first, real history..).

So let me show you again ?vidences by searching the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat.." (in four occurrences inclued 2184)

(2203) (280 is similar) And remember God during a few limited number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no one who is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to be gathered.
=> 3 days (Hajj)

Salam Iyyaka,

Sorry my question is a bit out of topic.

In 2203, whoever hurries relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is ok, whoever delays relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is also ok

Hurrying that is ok is 2 days as stated in the verse (1 day less than ayyaman ma'dudat is ok but cannot be lesser).

What about delaying? logically speaking, 11 days is ok (1 day more than ayyaman ma'dudat). But what about more than 1 day delay? How many more days in delay are still ok?

Wassalam,
Ade

Iyyaka

Salam Iyyaka,
Sorry my question is a bit out of topic.

In 2203, whoever hurries relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is ok, whoever delays relative to ayyaman ma'dudat then it is also ok
Hurrying that is ok is 2 days as stated in the verse (1 day less than ayyaman ma'dudat is ok but cannot be lesser).

What about delaying? logically speaking, 11 days is ok (1 day more than ayyaman ma'dudat). But what about more than 1 day delay? How many more days in delay are still ok?

Wassalam,
Ade

Salam ade_cool,

To be honest, for answering you with full evidences, i will need to expose at least all the rhetoric analysis of surah 2 and it is too big for this forum.
But i can try to answer you.

First, the context of 2203 is about the Hajj.

The second thing important to know is that the performance of "Hajj", in the quran, is mainly divided into 2 temporal sequences.
The verse 2203 is about the second and last temporal sequence and express the goal of this second sequence.
The duration of this second temporal sequence is NORMALLY of 3 full days. [NB right now i hesitate on this question - 3 days for all the Hajj or for just the second temporal sequence)
So it is from the 4th day that the delay begins and not the 11th day as you underline it.
As Allah does not give more precision and he uses the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat.." we can logically think that people stayed a few extra days, between 4 and 10 days instead of the recommended 3 days.

Another interesting fact why does not Allah specify these 3 days precisely without using the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat." ? Because it depends if you could execute the first sequence of Hajj (phase of offering).
If this is not the case, and you are not an inhabitant of the place of the Hajj, then it is not 3 days of reminders of god that you have to perform but 10 days (3 days in Hajj + 7 days once arrived home = 10 days).
The verses 2196 and 2203 are connected together..

Peace to you brother and i hope my response is clear.