Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.

Layth

Salam,

As to using the Christian calendars to fix Isa's birthday... it may be like jumping from the pan into the fire.

I'm not sure what you mean here as the Christian calendar is a pure solar one, whilst the Quran uses a luni-solar.

As to Jesus's birthday, that is concluded by deducting 9 months from when the dates ripen (August/September).

huruf

You are right, Layth, you did not put the christian calendar to show anything. And all your deductions on that post are strictly quranic based. I by myself do not know when dates are ripe. For thoroughness sake I have consulted the tima when the dates become ripe. I suppose tht it epends on the vrieties and also the places. For the dates of Elche, in Spain, which are the most common variety it says that they become ripe in autumn which might leave august out, but I suppose that depending on climate the limits may be stretched.

Sorry for my misunderstanding. May be by now I am so conscious of the undue assumptions imposed on the Qur'an by "christian sources" that I react even when there is no need for it.

Salaam

brook

Salam,

I'm not sure what you mean here as the Christian calendar is a pure solar one, whilst the Quran uses a luni-solar.

As to Jesus's birthday, that is concluded by deducting 9 months from when the dates ripen (August/September).

Yes, the year system which the Quran uses is solar
but its months are not shahrs
because SHAHR which the Quran mentions in 2185, 936 and 105 (moon phase) is FULL MOON;
it is not month.

So the year in the Quran
is simply solar;
it is not lunisolar.

For example in the time span
from summer solstice 2015 to summer solstice 2016
there are 13 shahrs

Ramadan* -----------> Jul 02, 2015 (First crescent, Jun 16, is 5 days before Jun 21).
Shawwal -------------> Jul 31
Zul-Qa’dah ----------> Aug 29
Zul-Hijjah -----------> Sep 28
Muharram -----------> Oct 27
Safar ----------------> Nov 25
Rabi-Al-Awwal--------> Dec 25
Rabi-Al-Thani --------> Jan 24
Jumada-Al-Awwal ----> Feb 22
Jumada-Al-Thani -----> Mar 23
Rajab ----------------> Apr 22
Shaban ---------------> May 21
??????-------------------> Jun 20, 2016 (Last crescent, Jul 04, is 14 days after Jun 21).
Jul. 19, 2016
…

If SHAHR was a lunar month lasting 29.5 days
13 shahrs would be 384 days long
and they woluld not have enough room in the 365-day time-span.

384 – 365 = 19

They have enough room now
because they are full moon nights
like laylatul qadr.

The 19 days are placed
before and after the 365-day span between the two solstices;
that is, OUTSIDE the 365-day time-span.

https//www.moonsighting.com/actual-saudi-dates.pdf

Jane

Thanks for your replies everyone.

I agree shahr is probably the full moon phase only (1-3 nights). There was no concept of a month in olden times, that's a Roman invention. (As is a rotating weekly cycle). Prior to that the solar quarter-days and/or the cross-quarter days and the 12 full moons were the markers in most cultures. Except for the Israelites who were forced to have an additional marker ever lunar quarter...until Yeshua came to relieve them of it.

https//pics.me.me/names-of-the-full-moon-jan-wolf-or-old-moon-17454772.png

https//media.worldslastchance.com/images/2010/11/18/4919/luni-solar-calendar-smaller-updated-b.jpg

Shahr must mean the full moon.

I was 90% sure Shahr Ramadan was thus the full moon after Litha (summer solstice) since 90% of Muslims state that Ramadan means scorching heat so yes that would be after then.Therefore the total full moon was the Special Night. Then I watched those videos which seem to confirm that the Arabs pre-Muhammad had Ramadhan at the END of summer and now I'm back to square one!

Layth - I see where you're going but the videos make sense and I've now read a few Aabic speakers saying the root of Ramadan is Ramadiyu which means the end of summer rain??

It makes total sense that the full moons had set points in the year starting with with winter solstice, in old Arabia like other areas

https//quranstudy19.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/islamic-months.png

I am just so confused even more though because if Shahr Ramadan is the 9th full moon then it's likely the one closest to Mabon (the autumn equinox) which is the Harvest Moon in old European tradition. This would be the worst time of the year to be fasting!! Because of all the physical work needed at that time.
https//s22380.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/Harvest-Moon-George-Mason-public-domain-480x274.jpg

How could God mandate this. That's what I meant by being even more confused. Surely that means Ramadan is just a commandment for the Ishmaelites.

Although our friend Joseph doesn't see an issue
https//m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOG1XeZ0xzI

It's also no longer clear to me whether the Special Night is the same as Shahr Ramadan at all. I can't see it being Winter Solstice. I accept that Yeshua/Isa was born in the autumn but we have no way of knowing when he was conceived. Saying his conception was at winter solstice assumes two things

that his gestation was definitely 9 months; we don't know that, it wasn't a standard conception so maybe it wasn't a standard gestation, he could have even been premature we don't know.
that the only day angels descend is 1 night a year. Seems unlikely?? Zechariah was also visited and told about Yahya. Was that also winter solstice? And Abraham and Sarah were visited by Gabriel too. I think if the Jews were used to being visited by angels on winter solstice they would have made it part of their culture but there's no significant winter solstice celebration in Judaism that I know of.

Perhaps to be on the safe side we should just fast every 100% full moon day, dawn til dusk, so we're covered!

I'm praying I will understand Ramadan sometime before I die, God-willing!

A_Submitter

Since 2000 then when I was studying Islam intensively at school in R.E. lessons.

2 translations of the Quran purchased.

Both of them read all the way through at least once.

Numerous other translations studied.

A few visits to Arab countries.

A few friendships with Sunnis.

A few years being a member of the Rashad Kahalifa cult.

8 years membership of this forum.

Many threads read about it on this and other websites.

Lots of time pondering it on my own.

Several attempts at Ramadan Sunni style (including one successful month).

A fair amount of mockery from family.

NINETEEN YEARS.

A whole Metonic cycle?(https//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle)

But I still don't understand what the instruction is! The thing that currently makes the most sense to me is to fast the full moon following the summer solstice, so 3 days, darkness excluded. But even then I am not sure if it applies to people outside of Arabia as well or even if women are included at all?!

I don't even know how to spell it! Is it Ramadan or Ramadhan or Ramazan? I have seen all three used.

Kill me.

Just kill me now.

giveup

Peace,

Somewhat late, but Ramadhan hasn't begun yet this year, in fact, right now is the four restricted months and it will soon end. So you are practicing something else that the Sunnis and Shias has slapped the name Ramadhan on.
First, you must be able to answer this question yourself; how do you come to the conclusion that Ramadhan this year was in June like the sectarians say? Or do you follow what they say blindly? How do you gather information from Quran and conclude that Ramadhan this year was in June (while it is the four restricted months which are separate from Ramadhan)? The point being that if you don't know when Ramadhan is, you don't have to do it sectarian style or any style, for God has not granted you this knowledge yet.

Anyway, if you want the real timing of Ramadhan, I recommend you read The Natural Republic, which presents the proof for the timing, unlike the sectarians who only guess everything and make up lies.

The next Ramadhan begins around November or December.

If you don't want to read the whole book, then you should begin with Chapter 13, and then continue with Chapter 16 and finally Chapter 18. It's the same as what brother Layth said, but he goes deeper into the topic in the book.

Remember to confirm everything yourself;
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of; for the hearing, and eyesight, and mind—all these you are responsible for.

And ask God that He increases your knowledge.

https//www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/TNR_0.pdf

Peace

Layth

Dear Jane,

Shahr cannot mean ?full moon? as that would throw off a number of verses which speak of child waning lasting 30 months and the fasting of 2 consecutive months In certain circumstances as well as the waiting for divorce 3 months or 3 menstruations.

brook

...Layth - I see where you're going but the videos make sense and I've now read a few Aabic speakers saying the root of Ramadan is Ramadiyu which means the end of summer rain??

Ayman too is an Arabic speaker;
and he says this
about the root and meaning* of Ramadan

We know that one of the meanings of a derivitive of "RMD" ("TaRaMoD&quot means inhumane hunting in the hot time of the year by chasing an animal until its legs burn from the heat and it falls. Hunters can catch animals this way with their hands without using weapons (see 594 reference to catching prey by hands).

The hot time of the year is when young animals are newly born and are relying on their mother so killing the mother means sentencing her newborns to death by dehydration and starvation.

Notice that out of the punishments listed for violating the hunting restriction in 595 fasting is the only one followed by the reason being so that the hunter "tastes the consequence of his deed".

How does the hunter taste the consequence of his deed by fasting? He experiences the thirst and hunger of the wild animal during the hot time of the year when hunting is restricted.

This is why fasting was decreed. It is not to feel the suffering of the poor as people contend. The poor are not given a license not to fast. It is to feel the suffering of the wild life that we as leaders of the earth must take good care of. This is why we fast with the beginning of the hunting restriction.

*Ra-Miim-Dad,
Ta-Ra-MoD,
Lane's Lexicon, p 322, meaning 5

He drove the gazelles
upon the ground or stones vehemently heated by the sun
until their hoofs became dissundered or dislocated
and so they were taken...

Layth

Dear Brook,

Ayman too is an Arabic speaker;
and he says this
about the root and meaning* of Ramadan

It seems I have been misunderstood. I have not challenged the meaning ascribed to 'Ramadhan' of 'Scorching Heat' or 'Early Autumn'...I have however, pointed out a very obvious fact that this discussion keeps ignoring, which is that the Arabs at the time of the Prophet had altered the sequence of the months so they can circumvent the Restricted Months of hunting

"In the use of the intercalary exists an increase in rejection; that those who have rejected may misguide with it. They make it permissible one calendar year, and forbid it one calendar year, so as to circumvent the count of what God has made forbidden; thus they make permissible what God has made forbidden. Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people." (Qur'an 937)

Therefore, even if Ramadhan in the Arabic language meant "Scorching Heat", when the Quran was revealed it was a distorted month occurring at a different time - which is why the claim that December is when the Quran is revealed makes the tracks here.

Just like Ramadhan now in the lunar calendar occurs at every season, so the argument can be made that Ramadhan of today is not "Scorching Heat" - as was originally the name when the months were distributed in a proper luni-solar system..

brook

...Also, the "nasi'" was an improper intercalation introduced at the end of the year every other year to delay the hunting restriction and violate it. So this means that the restricted full moons must occur at the beginning on the year.

The way I see it
is different.

The restricted moons are not part of the (solar) year,
they are part of the full moon series from one summer solstice to the next;
so they must ocur at the beginning of the FULL MOON SERIES.

The full moon series
and the (solar) year
are different concepts.

They are so different
that the year is always made up of the same number of units (365 plus days)
but the series of full moons has changing number of units (12/13 full moons).

The following are the times of the Scorching Full Moon
which ocurs at the beginning of 33 full moon series.

Please note
that 12 of them each comes 19 days later than the former
because there are 13 full moons in the series the former initiates
and that extra 13th full moon causes the delay.

http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

Jul. 05, 2001 --- Jul. 05, 2020
Jun 24, 2002 --- Jun 24, 2021
Jul. 13, 2003 --- Jul. 13, 2022
Jul. 02, 2004 --- Jul. 02, 2023
Jun 22, 2005 --- Jun 22, 2024
Jul. 11, 2006 --- Jul. 11, 2025
Jun 30, 2007 --- Jun 30, 2026
Jul. 18, 2008 --- Jul. 18, 2027
Jul. 07, 2009 --- Jul. 07, 2028
Jun 26, 2010 --- Jun 26, 2029
Jul. 15, 2011 --- Jul. 15, 2030
Jul. 03, 2012 --- Jul. 03, 2031
Jun 23, 2013 --- Jun 23, 2032
Jul. 12, 2014 --- Jul. 12, 2033
Jul. 02, 2015
Jul. 19, 2016
Jul. 09, 2017
Jun 28, 2018
Jul. 16, 2019

The day the year begins is man’s business;
he can decide it to be the day Jesus Christ was born
or the day Prophet Muhammad migrated.

brook

RaMaDan scorching
TaRaMoD inhumane hunting in hot time of the year (Ayman).

He hunted the gazelles
pursuing them until,
their legs being dislocated by the vehemently-heated ground,
he took them. (Lane’s Lexicon, taRaMoD)

Gazelles* are found in small groups of 3-8 individuals…
Mating occurs in October-Novemeber…
The gestation period is 180 days…
Births usually occur from April to May.
SUCKLING may last up to 3 months.

O you who believe,
God will test you with some of the game for hunting
coming within reach of your hands (594);
do not kill any game while you are restricted (595).

What this shows to me is that
Shahr Ramadan
is the first restricted full moon after gazelles give birth in April to May,
rising always** right after the summer solstice.

This was the way it was when the Quran was revealed
and this is the way it is now.

https//animaldiversity.org/accounts/Gazella_gazella/
** http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

Jul. 05, 2001 --- Jul. 05, 2020
Jun 24, 2002 --- Jun 24, 2021
Jul. 13, 2003 --- Jul. 13, 2022
Jul. 02, 2004 --- Jul. 02, 2023
Jun 22, 2005 --- Jun 22, 2024
Jul. 11, 2006 --- Jul. 11, 2025
Jun 30, 2007 --- Jun 30, 2026
Jul. 18, 2008 --- Jul. 18, 2027
Jul. 07, 2009 --- Jul. 07, 2028
Jun 26, 2010 --- Jun 26, 2029
Jul. 15, 2011 --- Jul. 15, 2030
Jul. 03, 2012 --- Jul. 03, 2031
Jun 23, 2013 --- Jun 23, 2032
Jul. 12, 2014 --- Jul. 12, 2033
Jul. 02, 2015
Jul. 19, 2016
Jul. 09, 2017
Jun 28, 2018
Jul. 16, 2019

brook

The full moon dates from year 597 onwards
are the same as the full moon dates from 1982 on
due to the Metonic sycle.

So Prophet Muhammad
witnessed the Scorching Full Moon
on the following 33 nights.

Please note
that 12 of these Shahr Ramadans each
initiates a series of full moons made up of 13 full moons.
The arrow (---&gt indicates the 13-moon series.

Jul. 05, 597/1982*
Jun 25, 598/1983* ---> 1
Jul. 13, 599/1984
Jul. 02, 600/1985
Jun 22, 601/1986 ----> 2
Jul. 11, 602/1987
Jun 29, 603/1988 ----> 3
0 Jul. 18, 604/1989
Jul. 08, 605/1990
Jun 27, 606/1991 ----> 4
Jul. 14, 607/1992
Jul. 03, 608/1993
Jun 23, 609/1994 ----> 5
Jul. 12, 610/1995
Jul. 01, 611/1996 ----> 6
Jul. 20, 612/1997
Jul. 09, 613/1998
1 Jun 28, 614/1999 ----> 7
Jul. 16, 615/2000
Jul. 05, 616/2001
Jun 25, 617/2002 ----> 8
Jul. 13, 618/2003
Jul. 02, 619/2004
Jun 22, 620/2005 ----> 9
Jul. 11, 621/2006
Jun 29, 622/2007 ---> 10
Jul. 18, 623/2008
2 Jul. 08, 624/2009
Jun 27, 625/2010 ---> 11
Jul. 14, 626/2011
Jul. 03, 627/2012
Jun 23, 628/2013 ---> 12
Jul. 12, 629/2014*
Jul. 02, 630/2015* --->1
...

https//www.moonsighting.com/actual-saudi-dates.pdf

ayman

I don't even know how to spell it! Is it Ramadan or Ramadhan or Ramazan? I have seen all three used.
Kill me.
Just kill me now.
giveup

Peace Jane,

It doesn?t matter how you transliterate a word. Transliteration doesn?t help in understanding, translation does.

The word means ?scorching heat?... so just by translating it you are already very close to the timing without anyone killing you )

Be weary of anyone who doesn?t translate any concept that you are trying to understand. This is what kept you running in circles all those years.

The full-moon of scorching heat (shahr ramadan) is the first full-moon after the summer solstice.

This subject is very simple but at the same time can be very difficult. This is expected since the timing can only be known by those who the god has guided.

... and you shall magnify the god for what he has guided you (2185)

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

However, if you read more into the Quran, you will find that the Arabs had been guilty of "manipulating" the sacred months by distorting the times to insert the extra month (intercalary) thata balanced the lunar and solar calendars

Peace brother Layth,

I am sure many here have read the great reading many times and personally I don?t remember any verse stating that the Arabs or anyone manipulated the meaning of the word ?ramadan? and changed it from cold (December) or mild/equal (September) to scorching heat. It is the god who said ?ramadan? in 2185 not the Arabs. So unless you are claiming that the word meaning was originally cold and the Arabs changed it to scorching heat, your theory is not aligned with the great reading or the Arabic language, just like the Hijri calendar where the meaning of the months became arbitrary and false.

Have you seen how big the trunk of a palm tree is? Do you really think a pregnant woman in severe labor pain can have the force to simply collect the dates by shaking the trunk of a palm tree or is there divine intervention? I would suggest you go in September and shake a palm tree and see if dates fall on your head. Why do you think laborers climb up palm trees to collect the harvest when it is so easy to simply shake it and collect the dates? Also, different varieties of dates mature at different times of the year. For example, in the Sinai I have seen some varieties mature in July.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Shahr cannot mean ?full moon? as that would throw off a number of verses which speak of child waning lasting 30 months and the fasting of 2 consecutive months In certain circumstances as well as the waiting for divorce 3 months or 3 menstruations.

Peace brother Layth,

Actually, menstruations are cyclical events just like the full-moon. They are not continuous 28-31 days consecutive periods like months. Therefore, the great reading using the same terminology for counting menstruations further confirms the Lisan Alarab dictionary meaning of ?shahr? as full-moon.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

Salam Ayman,

I am sure many here have read the great reading many times and personally I don?t remember any verse stating that the Arabs or anyone manipulated the meaning of the word ?ramadan? and changed it from cold (December) or mild/equal (September) to scorching heat. It is the god who said ?ramadan? in 2185 not the Arabs. So unless you are claiming that the word meaning was originally cold and the Arabs changed it to scorching heat, your theory is not aligned with the great reading or the Arabic language, just like the Hijri calendar where the meaning of the months became arbitrary and false.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. In 937 god admonishes the rejecters for playing around with the system of the intercalary month so as to circumvent God's restrictions (by adding it one year and skipping it in the next). As a result, the 12 months shift out of their place and thus the rejecters (like today) say they are obeying God when they have moved the entire landscape.

Thus, if the Arab speakers had designed a calendar (1-12months) that was based on the seasons (hence the names Rabea, Ramadhan), and if these Arab speakers knew they were not allowed to hunt in 4 months (say 3,4, 5, and 6) - but they wanted to because those were the months that wild game was most vulnerable - and if they did what our Sunni/Shia's of today did by letting the calendar slip (as God tells us), then it goes without much debate that "Ramadhan" would have a 1 in 12 chance of being in its correct seasonal position when the Quran was revealed.

Conclusion You can't make the statement that the Quran was revealed in the proper place of Ramadhan (scortching heat) unless you willfully ignore 937. We can only state with certainty that the Quran was revealed in the month "named" Ramadhan at that juncture in time.

Have you seen how big the trunk of a palm tree is? Do you really think a pregnant woman in severe labor pain can have the force to simply collect the dates by shaking the trunk of a palm tree or is there divine intervention? I would suggest you go in September and shake a palm tree and see if dates fall on your head. Why do you think laborers climb up palm trees to collect the harvest when it is so easy to simply shake it and collect the dates? Also, different varieties of dates mature at different times of the year. For example, in the Sinai I have seen some varieties mature in July.

Your understanding is incorrect for 2 reasons

Palm trees give fruit when they are still under 1m in height (I have palm trees and my small children can eat the dates directly from the tree).
The Quran does not tell Mary to "shake the trunk of the palm tree" - it says "shake towards you with the trunk of the palm tree". The difference in Arabic is small, but the meaning changes.

ayman

You seem to have misunderstood my post. In 937 god admonishes the rejecters for playing around with the system of the intercalary month so as to circumvent God's restrictions (by adding it one year and skipping it in the next). As a result, the 12 months shift out of their place and thus the rejecters (like today) say they are obeying God when they have moved the entire landscape.

Thus, if the Arab speakers had designed a calendar (1-12months) that was based on the seasons (hence the names Rabea, Ramadhan), and if these Arab speakers knew they were not allowed to hunt in 4 months (say 3,4, 5, and 6) - but they wanted to because those were the months that wild game was most vulnerable - and if they did what our Sunni/Shia's of today did by letting the calendar slip (as God tells us), then it goes without much debate that "Ramadhan" would have a 1 in 12 chance of being in its correct seasonal position when the Quran was revealed.

Conclusion You can't make the statement that the Quran was revealed in the proper place of Ramadhan (scortching heat) unless you willfully ignore 937. We can only state with certainty that the Quran was revealed in the month "named" Ramadhan at that juncture in time.

Your understanding is incorrect for 2 reasons

Palm trees give fruit when they are still under 1m in height (I have palm trees and my small children can eat the dates directly from the tree).
The Quran does not tell Mary to "shake the trunk of the palm tree" - it says "shake towards you with the trunk of the palm tree". The difference in Arabic is small, but the meaning changes.

Doesn?t matter what the calendar is. The term scorching heat is a description in the Quran just like winter (&#1569 and late spring (&#1601 in 1062

What you are saying is that the Arabs distortion of their calendar actually moved the cosmic phenomena of scorching heat, winter and late spring around. In this case the Arabs performed a cosmic miracle no prophet ever performed )

As far as the palm tree the passage says she shook the trunk towards her which means not just shaking but also bending the trunk ... an even more difficult feat ... no matter what the size of the palm tree.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

Dear Ayman,

You are not making any sense in your response.

I am stating a specific verse that speaks of an actual event/behavior that was done to impact the sequence of the months, and you are simply repeating the same old statement "Ramadhan means scorching heat!"

For the palm tree...I leave you to ponder the verses when you are in a more objective mode.

I have nothing to add.

ayman

You are not making any sense in your response.

I am stating a specific verse that speaks of an actual event/behavior that was done to impact the sequence of the months, and you are simply repeating the same old statement "Ramadhan means scorching heat!"

For the palm tree...I leave you to ponder the verses when you are in a more objective mode.

I have nothing to add.

Peace Layth,

It will not make sense to you just like it didn?t make sense to Jane for 19 years and just like it didn?t make sense to Sunnis for hundreds of years. What you all have in common is that you take the word ?ramadan? that the god selected as the meaningless proper name of some Arab month in a false calendar. You are assuming that the god has to conform and submit to the Arab distorted calendar. Until you grasp the simple fact that the term scorching heat just like winter and late spring is a meaningful description of a cosmic phenomenon independent of Arabs then you will stay tied at the umbilical cord to some guy who invented a false calendar that you are in doubt about.

When you cut your umbilical cord and get over the mental block of the meaningless proper name then you will be able to add a lot.

Peace and all the best,

Ayman

jkhan

Peace Everyone...
Hope everyone keeping fine especially these days...

Any serious research from anyone on when to fast and how many days according Quran ?...

Most have difference of opinion and understanding... Last time we heard from Houriya saying retreat is siyam....

I would like to know what you as Quran only as guidance do when it comes to fasting... Is it your choice or conventional one month?

Appreciate your responses.. Particularly researches

good_logic

Peace All.
Are things really complicated? Why spend the next 19 years in more confusion?

It seems that way nowadays. Everywhere you look there is someone s logic making things complex and claiming it is easier for them.
I feel deep down, we all need to go back to basics first ,then climb the ladder to our creator slowly.
What are the basics then?
Adam had the basics, so did Noah.
Let us stay with Noah for a while ,start there ,then move towards our time.
I will start a new thread, if interested, browse and even take part.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.