Nineteen years trying to figure out Ramadan and I still don't get it.

Layth

Dear Jane,

Shahr cannot mean ?full moon? as that would throw off a number of verses which speak of child waning lasting 30 months and the fasting of 2 consecutive months In certain circumstances as well as the waiting for divorce 3 months or 3 menstruations.

brook

...Layth - I see where you're going but the videos make sense and I've now read a few Aabic speakers saying the root of Ramadan is Ramadiyu which means the end of summer rain??

Ayman too is an Arabic speaker;
and he says this
about the root and meaning* of Ramadan

We know that one of the meanings of a derivitive of "RMD" ("TaRaMoD&quot means inhumane hunting in the hot time of the year by chasing an animal until its legs burn from the heat and it falls. Hunters can catch animals this way with their hands without using weapons (see 594 reference to catching prey by hands).

The hot time of the year is when young animals are newly born and are relying on their mother so killing the mother means sentencing her newborns to death by dehydration and starvation.

Notice that out of the punishments listed for violating the hunting restriction in 595 fasting is the only one followed by the reason being so that the hunter "tastes the consequence of his deed".

How does the hunter taste the consequence of his deed by fasting? He experiences the thirst and hunger of the wild animal during the hot time of the year when hunting is restricted.

This is why fasting was decreed. It is not to feel the suffering of the poor as people contend. The poor are not given a license not to fast. It is to feel the suffering of the wild life that we as leaders of the earth must take good care of. This is why we fast with the beginning of the hunting restriction.

*Ra-Miim-Dad,
Ta-Ra-MoD,
Lane's Lexicon, p 322, meaning 5

He drove the gazelles
upon the ground or stones vehemently heated by the sun
until their hoofs became dissundered or dislocated
and so they were taken...

Layth

Dear Brook,

Ayman too is an Arabic speaker;
and he says this
about the root and meaning* of Ramadan

It seems I have been misunderstood. I have not challenged the meaning ascribed to 'Ramadhan' of 'Scorching Heat' or 'Early Autumn'...I have however, pointed out a very obvious fact that this discussion keeps ignoring, which is that the Arabs at the time of the Prophet had altered the sequence of the months so they can circumvent the Restricted Months of hunting

"In the use of the intercalary exists an increase in rejection; that those who have rejected may misguide with it. They make it permissible one calendar year, and forbid it one calendar year, so as to circumvent the count of what God has made forbidden; thus they make permissible what God has made forbidden. Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people." (Qur'an 937)

Therefore, even if Ramadhan in the Arabic language meant "Scorching Heat", when the Quran was revealed it was a distorted month occurring at a different time - which is why the claim that December is when the Quran is revealed makes the tracks here.

Just like Ramadhan now in the lunar calendar occurs at every season, so the argument can be made that Ramadhan of today is not "Scorching Heat" - as was originally the name when the months were distributed in a proper luni-solar system..

brook

...Also, the "nasi'" was an improper intercalation introduced at the end of the year every other year to delay the hunting restriction and violate it. So this means that the restricted full moons must occur at the beginning on the year.

The way I see it
is different.

The restricted moons are not part of the (solar) year,
they are part of the full moon series from one summer solstice to the next;
so they must ocur at the beginning of the FULL MOON SERIES.

The full moon series
and the (solar) year
are different concepts.

They are so different
that the year is always made up of the same number of units (365 plus days)
but the series of full moons has changing number of units (12/13 full moons).

The following are the times of the Scorching Full Moon
which ocurs at the beginning of 33 full moon series.

Please note
that 12 of them each comes 19 days later than the former
because there are 13 full moons in the series the former initiates
and that extra 13th full moon causes the delay.

http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

Jul. 05, 2001 --- Jul. 05, 2020
Jun 24, 2002 --- Jun 24, 2021
Jul. 13, 2003 --- Jul. 13, 2022
Jul. 02, 2004 --- Jul. 02, 2023
Jun 22, 2005 --- Jun 22, 2024
Jul. 11, 2006 --- Jul. 11, 2025
Jun 30, 2007 --- Jun 30, 2026
Jul. 18, 2008 --- Jul. 18, 2027
Jul. 07, 2009 --- Jul. 07, 2028
Jun 26, 2010 --- Jun 26, 2029
Jul. 15, 2011 --- Jul. 15, 2030
Jul. 03, 2012 --- Jul. 03, 2031
Jun 23, 2013 --- Jun 23, 2032
Jul. 12, 2014 --- Jul. 12, 2033
Jul. 02, 2015
Jul. 19, 2016
Jul. 09, 2017
Jun 28, 2018
Jul. 16, 2019

The day the year begins is man’s business;
he can decide it to be the day Jesus Christ was born
or the day Prophet Muhammad migrated.

brook

RaMaDan scorching
TaRaMoD inhumane hunting in hot time of the year (Ayman).

He hunted the gazelles
pursuing them until,
their legs being dislocated by the vehemently-heated ground,
he took them. (Lane’s Lexicon, taRaMoD)

Gazelles* are found in small groups of 3-8 individuals…
Mating occurs in October-Novemeber…
The gestation period is 180 days…
Births usually occur from April to May.
SUCKLING may last up to 3 months.

O you who believe,
God will test you with some of the game for hunting
coming within reach of your hands (594);
do not kill any game while you are restricted (595).

What this shows to me is that
Shahr Ramadan
is the first restricted full moon after gazelles give birth in April to May,
rising always** right after the summer solstice.

This was the way it was when the Quran was revealed
and this is the way it is now.

https//animaldiversity.org/accounts/Gazella_gazella/
** http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases2001.html

Jul. 05, 2001 --- Jul. 05, 2020
Jun 24, 2002 --- Jun 24, 2021
Jul. 13, 2003 --- Jul. 13, 2022
Jul. 02, 2004 --- Jul. 02, 2023
Jun 22, 2005 --- Jun 22, 2024
Jul. 11, 2006 --- Jul. 11, 2025
Jun 30, 2007 --- Jun 30, 2026
Jul. 18, 2008 --- Jul. 18, 2027
Jul. 07, 2009 --- Jul. 07, 2028
Jun 26, 2010 --- Jun 26, 2029
Jul. 15, 2011 --- Jul. 15, 2030
Jul. 03, 2012 --- Jul. 03, 2031
Jun 23, 2013 --- Jun 23, 2032
Jul. 12, 2014 --- Jul. 12, 2033
Jul. 02, 2015
Jul. 19, 2016
Jul. 09, 2017
Jun 28, 2018
Jul. 16, 2019

brook

The full moon dates from year 597 onwards
are the same as the full moon dates from 1982 on
due to the Metonic sycle.

So Prophet Muhammad
witnessed the Scorching Full Moon
on the following 33 nights.

Please note
that 12 of these Shahr Ramadans each
initiates a series of full moons made up of 13 full moons.
The arrow (---&gt indicates the 13-moon series.

Jul. 05, 597/1982*
Jun 25, 598/1983* ---> 1
Jul. 13, 599/1984
Jul. 02, 600/1985
Jun 22, 601/1986 ----> 2
Jul. 11, 602/1987
Jun 29, 603/1988 ----> 3
0 Jul. 18, 604/1989
Jul. 08, 605/1990
Jun 27, 606/1991 ----> 4
Jul. 14, 607/1992
Jul. 03, 608/1993
Jun 23, 609/1994 ----> 5
Jul. 12, 610/1995
Jul. 01, 611/1996 ----> 6
Jul. 20, 612/1997
Jul. 09, 613/1998
1 Jun 28, 614/1999 ----> 7
Jul. 16, 615/2000
Jul. 05, 616/2001
Jun 25, 617/2002 ----> 8
Jul. 13, 618/2003
Jul. 02, 619/2004
Jun 22, 620/2005 ----> 9
Jul. 11, 621/2006
Jun 29, 622/2007 ---> 10
Jul. 18, 623/2008
2 Jul. 08, 624/2009
Jun 27, 625/2010 ---> 11
Jul. 14, 626/2011
Jul. 03, 627/2012
Jun 23, 628/2013 ---> 12
Jul. 12, 629/2014*
Jul. 02, 630/2015* --->1
...

https//www.moonsighting.com/actual-saudi-dates.pdf

ayman

I don't even know how to spell it! Is it Ramadan or Ramadhan or Ramazan? I have seen all three used.
Kill me.
Just kill me now.
giveup

Peace Jane,

It doesn?t matter how you transliterate a word. Transliteration doesn?t help in understanding, translation does.

The word means ?scorching heat?... so just by translating it you are already very close to the timing without anyone killing you )

Be weary of anyone who doesn?t translate any concept that you are trying to understand. This is what kept you running in circles all those years.

The full-moon of scorching heat (shahr ramadan) is the first full-moon after the summer solstice.

This subject is very simple but at the same time can be very difficult. This is expected since the timing can only be known by those who the god has guided.

... and you shall magnify the god for what he has guided you (2185)

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

However, if you read more into the Quran, you will find that the Arabs had been guilty of "manipulating" the sacred months by distorting the times to insert the extra month (intercalary) thata balanced the lunar and solar calendars

Peace brother Layth,

I am sure many here have read the great reading many times and personally I don?t remember any verse stating that the Arabs or anyone manipulated the meaning of the word ?ramadan? and changed it from cold (December) or mild/equal (September) to scorching heat. It is the god who said ?ramadan? in 2185 not the Arabs. So unless you are claiming that the word meaning was originally cold and the Arabs changed it to scorching heat, your theory is not aligned with the great reading or the Arabic language, just like the Hijri calendar where the meaning of the months became arbitrary and false.

Have you seen how big the trunk of a palm tree is? Do you really think a pregnant woman in severe labor pain can have the force to simply collect the dates by shaking the trunk of a palm tree or is there divine intervention? I would suggest you go in September and shake a palm tree and see if dates fall on your head. Why do you think laborers climb up palm trees to collect the harvest when it is so easy to simply shake it and collect the dates? Also, different varieties of dates mature at different times of the year. For example, in the Sinai I have seen some varieties mature in July.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Shahr cannot mean ?full moon? as that would throw off a number of verses which speak of child waning lasting 30 months and the fasting of 2 consecutive months In certain circumstances as well as the waiting for divorce 3 months or 3 menstruations.

Peace brother Layth,

Actually, menstruations are cyclical events just like the full-moon. They are not continuous 28-31 days consecutive periods like months. Therefore, the great reading using the same terminology for counting menstruations further confirms the Lisan Alarab dictionary meaning of ?shahr? as full-moon.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

Salam Ayman,

I am sure many here have read the great reading many times and personally I don?t remember any verse stating that the Arabs or anyone manipulated the meaning of the word ?ramadan? and changed it from cold (December) or mild/equal (September) to scorching heat. It is the god who said ?ramadan? in 2185 not the Arabs. So unless you are claiming that the word meaning was originally cold and the Arabs changed it to scorching heat, your theory is not aligned with the great reading or the Arabic language, just like the Hijri calendar where the meaning of the months became arbitrary and false.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. In 937 god admonishes the rejecters for playing around with the system of the intercalary month so as to circumvent God's restrictions (by adding it one year and skipping it in the next). As a result, the 12 months shift out of their place and thus the rejecters (like today) say they are obeying God when they have moved the entire landscape.

Thus, if the Arab speakers had designed a calendar (1-12months) that was based on the seasons (hence the names Rabea, Ramadhan), and if these Arab speakers knew they were not allowed to hunt in 4 months (say 3,4, 5, and 6) - but they wanted to because those were the months that wild game was most vulnerable - and if they did what our Sunni/Shia's of today did by letting the calendar slip (as God tells us), then it goes without much debate that "Ramadhan" would have a 1 in 12 chance of being in its correct seasonal position when the Quran was revealed.

Conclusion You can't make the statement that the Quran was revealed in the proper place of Ramadhan (scortching heat) unless you willfully ignore 937. We can only state with certainty that the Quran was revealed in the month "named" Ramadhan at that juncture in time.

Have you seen how big the trunk of a palm tree is? Do you really think a pregnant woman in severe labor pain can have the force to simply collect the dates by shaking the trunk of a palm tree or is there divine intervention? I would suggest you go in September and shake a palm tree and see if dates fall on your head. Why do you think laborers climb up palm trees to collect the harvest when it is so easy to simply shake it and collect the dates? Also, different varieties of dates mature at different times of the year. For example, in the Sinai I have seen some varieties mature in July.

Your understanding is incorrect for 2 reasons

Palm trees give fruit when they are still under 1m in height (I have palm trees and my small children can eat the dates directly from the tree).
The Quran does not tell Mary to "shake the trunk of the palm tree" - it says "shake towards you with the trunk of the palm tree". The difference in Arabic is small, but the meaning changes.

ayman

You seem to have misunderstood my post. In 937 god admonishes the rejecters for playing around with the system of the intercalary month so as to circumvent God's restrictions (by adding it one year and skipping it in the next). As a result, the 12 months shift out of their place and thus the rejecters (like today) say they are obeying God when they have moved the entire landscape.

Thus, if the Arab speakers had designed a calendar (1-12months) that was based on the seasons (hence the names Rabea, Ramadhan), and if these Arab speakers knew they were not allowed to hunt in 4 months (say 3,4, 5, and 6) - but they wanted to because those were the months that wild game was most vulnerable - and if they did what our Sunni/Shia's of today did by letting the calendar slip (as God tells us), then it goes without much debate that "Ramadhan" would have a 1 in 12 chance of being in its correct seasonal position when the Quran was revealed.

Conclusion You can't make the statement that the Quran was revealed in the proper place of Ramadhan (scortching heat) unless you willfully ignore 937. We can only state with certainty that the Quran was revealed in the month "named" Ramadhan at that juncture in time.

Your understanding is incorrect for 2 reasons

Palm trees give fruit when they are still under 1m in height (I have palm trees and my small children can eat the dates directly from the tree).
The Quran does not tell Mary to "shake the trunk of the palm tree" - it says "shake towards you with the trunk of the palm tree". The difference in Arabic is small, but the meaning changes.

Doesn?t matter what the calendar is. The term scorching heat is a description in the Quran just like winter (&#1569 and late spring (&#1601 in 1062

What you are saying is that the Arabs distortion of their calendar actually moved the cosmic phenomena of scorching heat, winter and late spring around. In this case the Arabs performed a cosmic miracle no prophet ever performed )

As far as the palm tree the passage says she shook the trunk towards her which means not just shaking but also bending the trunk ... an even more difficult feat ... no matter what the size of the palm tree.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

Dear Ayman,

You are not making any sense in your response.

I am stating a specific verse that speaks of an actual event/behavior that was done to impact the sequence of the months, and you are simply repeating the same old statement "Ramadhan means scorching heat!"

For the palm tree...I leave you to ponder the verses when you are in a more objective mode.

I have nothing to add.

ayman

You are not making any sense in your response.

I am stating a specific verse that speaks of an actual event/behavior that was done to impact the sequence of the months, and you are simply repeating the same old statement "Ramadhan means scorching heat!"

For the palm tree...I leave you to ponder the verses when you are in a more objective mode.

I have nothing to add.

Peace Layth,

It will not make sense to you just like it didn?t make sense to Jane for 19 years and just like it didn?t make sense to Sunnis for hundreds of years. What you all have in common is that you take the word ?ramadan? that the god selected as the meaningless proper name of some Arab month in a false calendar. You are assuming that the god has to conform and submit to the Arab distorted calendar. Until you grasp the simple fact that the term scorching heat just like winter and late spring is a meaningful description of a cosmic phenomenon independent of Arabs then you will stay tied at the umbilical cord to some guy who invented a false calendar that you are in doubt about.

When you cut your umbilical cord and get over the mental block of the meaningless proper name then you will be able to add a lot.

Peace and all the best,

Ayman

jkhan

Peace Everyone...
Hope everyone keeping fine especially these days...

Any serious research from anyone on when to fast and how many days according Quran ?...

Most have difference of opinion and understanding... Last time we heard from Houriya saying retreat is siyam....

I would like to know what you as Quran only as guidance do when it comes to fasting... Is it your choice or conventional one month?

Appreciate your responses.. Particularly researches

good_logic

Peace All.
Are things really complicated? Why spend the next 19 years in more confusion?

It seems that way nowadays. Everywhere you look there is someone s logic making things complex and claiming it is easier for them.
I feel deep down, we all need to go back to basics first ,then climb the ladder to our creator slowly.
What are the basics then?
Adam had the basics, so did Noah.
Let us stay with Noah for a while ,start there ,then move towards our time.
I will start a new thread, if interested, browse and even take part.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

jkhan

Peace..

2189 "They ask you concerning the new moon. Say They are times appointed for (the benefit of) men, and (for) the pilgrimage; ..... ..."

I was wondering why God didn't state in Quran that Moon shows timing for fasting while the verse states time for Haj... Though the verse 2189 is not far from ramadhan verse 2187...
Don't we really need new moon for start of fasting and ending if taken as conventional way?

That allows me to think that fasting is not complete one month based on moon... But few days depending on the heat of the season... Ramadhan is vehement heat as everyone knows... But it keeps changing... That's totally bizarre... Changing the meaning of months...
It's like calling Winter during July in North Pole... Though it's summer ...
How come the names of months which extremely attached to season and local importance etc can change completely ?

Layth

Salam.

I think on this topic there are a few points that have some general agreement amongst us, namely

Like Salat, fasting for a few days is not a new act inspired by the Quran (it was done by those before us);
Fasting lasts from just before the early dawn till night.

The areas which create debate

Is fasting fixed to the seasons or can it move around like done today?
Is Ramadhan a separate fast (to do with the night of decree and revelation of the Quran), or is it the same as the few days fast?
How is Ramadhan "witnessed"?
Is Ramadhan the name of a month that the Quran was revealed in, or is it a description of a seasonal phenomena?

2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

2184 A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

jkhan

Salam.

I think on this topic there are a few points that have some general agreement amongst us, namely

Like Salat, fasting for a few days is not a new act inspired by the Quran (it was done by those before us);
Fasting lasts from just before the early dawn till night.

The areas which create debate

Is fasting fixed to the seasons or can it move around like done today?
Is Ramadhan a separate fast (to do with the night of decree and revelation of the Quran), or is it the same as the few days fast?
How is Ramadhan "witnessed"?
Is Ramadhan the name of a month that the Quran was revealed in, or is it a description of a seasonal phenomena?

2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

2184 A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

Those are good questions...
Somehow fasting is not mandatory like Salat... That we have to agree within Quran... But fasting has great benefits that we don't know.. We can be believers without fasting 231-10..also there is no single verse to guard fasting... While it was an order to Guard Salat...

Somehow fasting for those who fast is fixed period... Otherwise no need to say to fast on "Other days" which are missed out due to illness etc..
To fast what is missed out it is must to know how many days to fast later.. without knowing the fixed numbers how one would fast what's missed out during the fixed period..
And it also confirms fasting is continuous act.. For example 10 days continuously...
If we can't find out what Ramadhan is within Quran then no other option other than approaching to other sources .. How reliable the other sources and why we need to.. if so why not for other matters? For all these the knowledge what ramadhan is essential... Without knowing what ramadhan is we will end up in no man's land...

Further one of my concerns is when it comes to fasting why people fast every year a month? Has Quran given us any clue that it is an yearly act? Or is it once in a lifetime ?

Can anyone recollect any order from Quran that we have to do every year compulsorily at certain period?

Houriya

Peace,

The meaning of siyam in the Reading

2185 The shahr of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion . Those of you who have witnessed the shahr shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

As for alhajj, God shows us what is allowed and what is not allowed durind the nignt and the day of siyam.
Do not to be confused these prescriptions with the meaning of hajj or siyam.
Siyam concerns the night and the day, there is no interruption.

2187 It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.

2197 The Pilgrimage is in the appointed months; so whoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor wickedness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O you who possess intelligence.

Peace