Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
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Peace....
One email message pointed me out a good indication in verse 2140 regarding chronology...
While prophets names are mentioned according seniority, still Jews and Christian are mentioned in chronological order... While those prophets were neither Jew or Christians as per 367.& 2140 so that also in order... Such as No Jews/christians then Jew and then Christian.... That proves Ismail was, before Is'haq with such precise chronology... -
That proves Ismail was, before Is'haq with such precise chronology...
lol@proves
Let me help you out. Study and confirm the following, if able
EVERY time prophets are mentioned it is ALWAYS in chronological* order
*we don't really know chronological order for certain but we can get a rough ideaAs I mentioned in the thread I linked to, if one can confirm that then that is a decent argument for chronology. It would not "prove" it however.
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Salaam,
peace ibn_a,
No offence taken. In fact, I like the way you present the counter argument.
You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough. If you're claiming it cannot be a fidya then that is a different matter. If it is the latter I have not seen you present sufficient Quranic evidence for this stance.
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Peace Wakas,
- Thanks for your constructive criticism, I will try to explain my view of what I underlined in the quote.
The verses concerning fidya in the Quran
Tranlation Muhammad Asad.
- other opinions.
----- fidya to free captives -----
285 And yet, it is you who slay one another and drive some of your own people from their homelands, aiding one another against them in sin and hatred; but if they come to you as captives, you ransom them - although the very driving them away has been made unlawful to you!. Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts? What, then, could be the reward of those among you who do such things but ignominy in the life of this world and, on the Day of Resurrection, commitment to most grievous suffering? For God is not unmindful of what you do474 NOW WHEN you meet those who are bent on denying the truth, smite their necks* until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds; but thereafter either by an act of grace or against ransom, so that the burden of war may be lifted thus . And had God so willed, He could indeed punish them ; but so as to test you by means of one another. And as for those who are slain in God’s cause, never will He let their deeds go to waste
- l-riqābi* can also mean captives.
----- fidya to free onself from commandments/recommandations, for valid reason -----
2184 during a certain number of days. But whoever of you is ill, or on a journey, number of other days; and it is incumbent upon those who can afford it* to make sacrifice by feeding a needy person. And whoever does more good than he is bound to do does good unto himself thereby; for to fast is to do good unto yourselves - if you but knew it.
yuteeqoonahu can also mean hardship/difficulty/not have the strength for it.2196 AND PERFORM the pilgrimage and the pious visit in honour of God; and if you are held back, give instead whatever offering you can easily afford. And do not shave your heads until the offering has been sacrificed; but he from among you who is ill or suffers from an ailment of the head shall redeem himself by fasting, or alms, or act of worship. And if you are hale and secure, then he who takes advantage of a pious visit before the pilgrimage shall give whatever offering he can easily afford; whereas he who cannot afford it shall fast for three days during the pilgrimage and for seven days after your return that is, ten full . All this relates to him who does not live near the Inviolable House of Worship. And remain conscious of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
----- fidya to free herself from her husband -----
2229 A divorce may be twice, whereupon the marriage must either be resumed in fairness or dissolved in a goodly manner. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything of what you have ever given to your wives unless both have cause to fear that they may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God hence, if you have cause to fear that the two may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God, there shall be no sin upon either of them for what the wife may give up in order to free herself. These are the bounds set by God; do not, then, transgress them for they who transgress the bounds set by God-it is they, they who are evildoers!----- fidya to free oneself from punishment/suffering -----
391 Verily, as for those who are bent on denying the truth and die as deniers of the truth - not all the gold on earth could ever be their ransom. It is they for whom grievous suffering is in store; and they shall have none to succour them.536 Verily, if those who are bent on denying the truth had all that is on earth, and twice as much, to offer as ransom from suffering on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them for grievous suffering awaits them.
1054 And all human beings that have been doing evil's would surely, if they possessed all that is on earth, offer it as ransom ; and when they see the suffering , they will be unable to express their remorse. But judgment will be passed on them in all equity; and they will not be wronged.
1318 of those who have responded to their Sustainer with a goodly response, and of those who did not respond to Him. if they possessed all that is on earth, and twice as much, they would surely offer it as ransom a most evil reckoning awaits them, and their goal is hell and how evil a resting-place!
3947 But if those who are bent on evildoing possessed all that is on earth, and twice as much, they would surely offer it as ransom from the awful suffering on the Day of Resurrection for, something with which they had not reckoned before will have been made obvious to them by God;
57 15 “And so, no ransom shall be accepted today from you, and neither from those who were bent on denying the truth. Your goal is the fire it is your refuge - and how evil a journey’s end!”
7011 though they may be in one another's sight everyone who was lost in sin will on that Day but desire to ransom himself from suffering at the price of his own children,
7012 and of his spouse, and of his brother,
7013 and of all the kinsfolk who ever sheltered him,
7014 and of whoever lives on earth, all of them - so that he could but save himself.----- fidya for ?? ----- in " the Abraham leaving scenario interpetation "
37107 And We ransomed him with a tremendous sacrifice,
If I missed something or made errors, please someone add or correct.
-In my view, fidya seems to be related to something negative, i.e. concerns people wo are in need for someone to do fidya for them (or need to do fidya for themselves), because they are in a situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they prefer not to be.
The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.
From the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", I understand that you relate fidya to something positive (or am I wrong?).
You say that " God exchanged Isaac/Ismael for/with a great/mighty sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son."والله اعلم
Allah knows best.peace ibn_a,
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The noun dhib'hin is only used once in Quran. I consider my take on it strong enough to allow for the possibility. I never said anywhere that my interpretation is validated by this or any other point. Please pay careful attention to my words.As I said on this thread, I considered the various options, and found the view presented in my article to be the most cogent (i.e. has the least number of issues). If you disagree please let us know your view so we can weigh them up.
Consider my posts concerning your article more as feedback and as questions to better understand the reason for your interpretation.
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lol@proves
Let me help you out. Study and confirm the following, if able
EVERY time prophets are mentioned it is ALWAYS in chronological* order
*we don't really know chronological order for certain but we can get a rough ideaAs I mentioned in the thread I linked to, if one can confirm that then that is a decent argument for chronology. It would not "prove" it however.
Then let’s not PROVE or CONFIRM anything.. let’s just wander in confusion by keep arguing for centuries like the yester year scholars.. be it Ismail or Is’haq or Slaughter or Separation… what difference it makes… who cares…that’s not my way… You be in that mindset if you really want to be by saying lol to proofs or as what your statement sounds…… but I won’t… at least I will ensure to my self with the time spent on this forum by having known other believers understanding, so it increases my belief and my knowledge… after all, the whole topic is only between 2 Sons not 20, only to pick one son out of it who involved in this story….that’s all.. If we are unable to do that at least, then where we stand in our understanding of Quran…
Proving anything doesn’t mean that everyone would or must accept it even how much it weighs towards one side… that’s a well known fact…. Even anything is proven manifestly; only very minute number will pay attention to it.... They may be silent knowing what is right…So pretty obvious what is my intention here is to expose something which is hidden proofs for those who heed…let the reader go further in his or her own search….That’s what I am up to and not to convince everyone who are firmly affixed on something else… that’s impossible and useless effort… that won’t happen .. never..
If this is the way and cannot prove anything in quran, then we don’t have any right to say to those who follow Hadith apart from quran….coz.. what is proven is only within our knowledge and not within their acceptance..calling them based on our acceptance is merely an argument…not proof....
God guides with what is right, that cannot be proved by any human that God has guided such and such…But truth is always stand out from the falsehood… that’s undeniable..without confirming/proving anything in quran, how someone accept the quran and believe in God..
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Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Have we got answers to the topic?
Does the Quran Say……Yes / NO…
Did God tell? …….. Yes / NO
Ibrahim to Sacrifice ? …….. Yes / NO
Sacrifice his Son? ……… Yes / NO… if Yes.. which son?So…. According to Topic… chronological order is very much relevant…so whatever we discussed is within the topic.. I didn’t go anything away from the topic raised…
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Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Have we got answers to the topic?
Does the Quran Say……Yes / NO…
Did God tell? …….. Yes / NO
Ibrahim to Sacrifice ? …….. Yes / NO
Sacrifice his Son? ……… Yes / NO… if Yes.. which son?So…. According to Topic… chronological order is very much relevant…so whatever we discussed is within the topic.. I didn’t go anything away from the topic raised…
What is the characteristic trait of each of two sons of Ibrahim alahissalam.
Which son was given by acceding to the prayer for grant of ONE son?
Which son was given unsolicited?
This will support the point of jkan.
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Salaam,
-In my view, fidya seems to be related to something negative, i.e. concerns people wo are in need for someone to do fidya for them (or need to do fidya for themselves), because they are in a situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they prefer not to be.
The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.
That's what it is.... What is ransomed? Delivering/ freeing someone from his her unpleasant situations.... What is the unpleasant thing here...? Slaughter.....
Why it is tremendous slaughter? Coz Ismail was human....We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... That's how God helps and good doers....
I reiterated red highlighted your view from the beginning... But discarded and still hovering in it...
You well explained... Any normal person would, grasp it...After all it is a ransom from God and would god take something from Ibrahim to ransom his son? Normally for ransom and deliver something should be there but not, for God.. God ransomed /delivered...
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Salam,
Be careful not to distort the meaning of Allah's words to stick to your cognitive filter.
So let's try to let the text speaks..You have fulfilled the vision." So, this is how We reward the beneficent.
=> Abraham is described as "beneficent" because he did something that is charitable (and kill his own and only child is not a good-doear as i know!)
=> the root of the word ṣaddaqta/fulfilled-something also is using to mean the charity-due..This words refers to prove true by deeds and the use of the verbal form 2 (intensity and repetition) is without ambiguity
=> Pay attention to the word kadhālika/So that brings the consequence, the conclusion of the above.
This was a clear hardship.
=> "clear" No ambiguity in the signfication of the vision
=> "hardship" = This word is used as parasynonym of the word "sacrifice"
We redeemed him by means of an immense sacrifice.
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
=> Abraham was very concerned in the Quran that his legacy would not be lost in later generations..
We have perpetuate his memory in posterity..
=> The quran gives us what was the "reeemed" We have perpetuate his memory in posterity. (memory - to protect it) - this sentence is also use several times (to meditate) in this surah for other messengers... -
peace ibn_a,
The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.From the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", I understand that you relate fidya to something positive (or am I wrong?).
You say that " God exchanged Isaac/Ismael for/with a great/mighty sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son."I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
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peace ibn_a,
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.Peace...
No Brother Waqas.. Don’t grind it, it will become so complicated then…
2196 in all general translations or even your special article translation…
Two CAUSES or REASONS and three OPTIONS…
CAUSES 2 = Mareed & Azan Min RasiHI….
OPTIONS 3 = Siyam / Sadaqa / NusukiNot necessary to carry out the entire OPTIONS for one CAUSE or both the CAUSES…for instance… Mareed, then siyam is beyond probability … so go for another option which is possible…If Azan Min RasiHi then better Siyam, etc..
Here CAUSE which prompted to FIDYA are unpleasant or Ibn-a indicated (Physically or mentally not preferred).. so opted suitable one FIDYA out of three Options..
Why you give the impossible OPTION for the CAUSE to substantiate your claim.. as you stated.. if one Sick then Option Fast…Even in prescribed fasting when sick not recommended to fast..that's bizarre example -
Salaam,
That's what it is.... What is ransomed? Delivering/ freeing someone from his her unpleasant situations.... What is the unpleasant thing here...? Slaughter.....
Why it is tremendous slaughter? Coz Ismail was human....We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... That's how God helps and good doers....
I reiterated red highlighted your view from the beginning... But discarded and still hovering in it...
You well explained... Any normal person would, grasp it...After all it is a ransom from God and would god take something from Ibrahim to ransom his son? Normally for ransom and deliver something should be there but not, for God.. God ransomed /delivered...
Peace jkhan,
Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think thatWa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem وفدينه بذبح عظيم
can mean We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,
if I did correctly understand what you mean.
If you were right, I think that the word to use would be من min dhibhin atheem.
The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem
Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
peace ibn_a,
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
Peace Wakas,
I will try to respond later, God willing.
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Salaam,
Peace jkhan,
Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think thatWa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem وفدينه بذبح عظيم
can mean We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,
if I did correctly understand what you mean.
If you were right, I think that the word to use would be من min dhibhin atheem.
The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem
Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)
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I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)
Azeem is second element of Adjectival Phrase. And the Prepositional phrase is in the place of second object of preceding verb. A person is redeemed or absolved by some instrument which is mentioned by using Be.
The preposition بـِ designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is used for the following purposes
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For connectivity;
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For assistance; instrument
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For making a verb transitive;
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For an adverbial meaning;
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For accompaniment.
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For requital; and
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Extraneous; according to a rule for the negated predicate; also in interrogation.
http//haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm
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Azeem is second element of Adjectival Phrase. And the Prepositional phrase is in the place of second object of preceding verb. A person is redeemed or absolved by some instrument which is mentioned by using Be.
The preposition بـِ designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is used for the following purposes
-
For connectivity;
-
For assistance; instrument
-
For making a verb transitive;
-
For an adverbial meaning;
-
For accompaniment.
-
For requital; and
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Extraneous; according to a rule for the negated predicate; also in interrogation.
http//haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm
Thank you Brother Mazhr.... I received this link from one member... It elaborates what, Mazhr submitted above...
http//revivearabic.blogspot.com/2016/12/arabic-particles-learn-arabic-preposition-bi.html
I know all of you refer dictionaries...So can refer... 'bi' has various meaning n application....
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Salam,
Be careful not to distort the meaning of Allah's words to stick to your cognitive filter.
So let's try to let the text speaks..You have fulfilled the vision." SO, this is how We reward the beneficent.
=> Abraham is described as "beneficent" because he did something that is charitable (and kill his own and only child is not a good-doear as i know!)
=> the root of the word ṣaddaqta/fulfilled-something also is using to mean the charity-due..This words refers to prove true by deeds and the use of the verbal form 2 (intensity and repetition) is without ambiguity
=> Pay attention to the word kadhālika/So that brings the consequence, the conclusion of the above.
This was a clear hardship.
=> "clear" No ambiguity in the signfication of the vision
=> "hardship" = This word is used as parasynonym of the word "sacrifice"
We redeemed him by means of an immense sacrifice.
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
=> Abraham was very concerned in the Quran that his legacy would not be lost in later generations..
We have perpetuate his memory in posterity..
=> The quran gives us what was the "reeemed" We have perpetuate his memory in posterity. (memory - to protect it) - this sentence is also use several times (to meditate) in this surah for other messengers... -
I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)
Peace........................
I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 3701 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem - So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””
But for 37107 used word “WITH” WaFadainaHu BiZibhin Azeem – definitely there must be grammatical rules..but it depend how they understood the verse to apply (with or of)
It shows translators have found that “Bi” gives the English meaning “”OF”” as well…if it was a critical word and not befit to quran we could have negated all the translators to suit quran, but this is a simple preposition of “Bi”…so they can’t go wrong in most probability depending on the verse 37101…
Instead of “Min” the word “Bi” in verse no. 37107 really befits to the incident took place…even grammatically… either use “OF, Because of, in replacement for, etc… I don’t think the word “Min” (from) should be there to get the exact meaning… Coz incident (slaughtering didn’t take place…we should differentiate first the meaning and usage of “OF” and “FROM” in a nutshell..…
*I was fortunately saved OF an accident….in fact didn’t face/involve the accident, but could have been unless for some reason……….
** I was fortunately saved FROM the accident… in fact did face/involved in the accident, but nothing happened though others have faced with unfortunate outcome of the incident..
Or else.. when knowing clearly.. for example- Pudding is made OF milk… very obvious that milk was the main ingredient and by the smell or by the look..
** Pudding is made FROM Sea Grass … not so obvious what are the ingredients, unless explained by the one who made it or with some other way..
Thus, if in case Ibrahim was slaughtering some others and till reach to his son then he was saved… if that is the scenario then the usage of “FROM” is much appropriate coz he was saved FROM terrible Slaughtering taking place prior to his son’s slaughter.. God knows, which word to use and what is used is in quran that remains….....let’s trace what actually God meant by what HE used…that’s it…
How far my explanation befits to the situation, I don’t know, but I don’t see anything wrong in the wording of Quran to mean that “We ransomed him of tremendous Slaughter”… After all something happened between Ibrahim and his son… let’s get close to trace what happened. .In my side I have furnished the evidences to the extreme end within quran which I never knew prior to research honestly… I learned a lot from my own research and from others here in this topic….
- Pudding is made OF milk… very obvious that milk was the main ingredient and by the smell or by the look..
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I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 3701 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem - So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””Root ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.
This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm
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Salaam,
peace ibn_a,
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God....
Peace Wakas,
See it this way
My view is that (some) believers may feel guilty (mental situation), and/or feel excluded for not being able to do ( the) (some) commandments/recommandations, so giving them other options, could help remove/Reduce their guilty feelings, and/or feeling excluded ---> restore/improve their (mental) situation....
I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
red in quote mine.
peace ibn_a,
As I mentioned previously HERE the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. In my understanding it doesn't seem to make a difference.
Thus, it would be either
- exchanged him (the son) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced the son with a mighty sacrifice Abraham made (by separating from his son)
- exchanged him (Abraham) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced Abraham with a mighty sacrifice the son made (by separating from his father)
Interestingly, such an event would have effected both, so each one will have experienced the above. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result.
I take it as a play on words as mentioned in my article, quote
It is a self-contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else in the context to explain it. I'm personally not a fan of inserting things into the text to explain Quran when there is no warrant, and especially if there is a fitting explanation that does not require an insertion.
red in quote mine.
Positive was not about "a father leaving his son" but about "the fidya".
What I understand is that you see the fidya as a sort of reward that god gave to Abraham in exchange for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael.
If it is a raward , there would bee no need to use the word fidya, I think that a fidya is not the same as a reward.
You seem to have understood my view when you said "You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough.""A self-contained explanation" seems very abstract in my view.
God rewarded Abraham for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael with a mighty sacrifice.
While the mighty sacrifice (ie Abraham leaving his son Isaac/Ismael) was done by Abraham.
How did God reward Abraham for something Abraham did himself?والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Salaam,
Peace jkhan,
Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think thatWa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem وفدينه بذبح عظيم
can mean We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,
if I did correctly understand what you mean.
If you were right, I think that the word to use would be من min dhibhin atheem.
The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem
Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Peace jkhan,
If your explanation of 37107 in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu
for example ---> نجينه najjaynahu
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
