Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
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lol@proves
Let me help you out. Study and confirm the following, if able
EVERY time prophets are mentioned it is ALWAYS in chronological* order
*we don't really know chronological order for certain but we can get a rough ideaAs I mentioned in the thread I linked to, if one can confirm that then that is a decent argument for chronology. It would not "prove" it however.
Then let’s not PROVE or CONFIRM anything.. let’s just wander in confusion by keep arguing for centuries like the yester year scholars.. be it Ismail or Is’haq or Slaughter or Separation… what difference it makes… who cares…that’s not my way… You be in that mindset if you really want to be by saying lol to proofs or as what your statement sounds…… but I won’t… at least I will ensure to my self with the time spent on this forum by having known other believers understanding, so it increases my belief and my knowledge… after all, the whole topic is only between 2 Sons not 20, only to pick one son out of it who involved in this story….that’s all.. If we are unable to do that at least, then where we stand in our understanding of Quran…
Proving anything doesn’t mean that everyone would or must accept it even how much it weighs towards one side… that’s a well known fact…. Even anything is proven manifestly; only very minute number will pay attention to it.... They may be silent knowing what is right…So pretty obvious what is my intention here is to expose something which is hidden proofs for those who heed…let the reader go further in his or her own search….That’s what I am up to and not to convince everyone who are firmly affixed on something else… that’s impossible and useless effort… that won’t happen .. never..
If this is the way and cannot prove anything in quran, then we don’t have any right to say to those who follow Hadith apart from quran….coz.. what is proven is only within our knowledge and not within their acceptance..calling them based on our acceptance is merely an argument…not proof....
God guides with what is right, that cannot be proved by any human that God has guided such and such…But truth is always stand out from the falsehood… that’s undeniable..without confirming/proving anything in quran, how someone accept the quran and believe in God..
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Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Have we got answers to the topic?
Does the Quran Say……Yes / NO…
Did God tell? …….. Yes / NO
Ibrahim to Sacrifice ? …….. Yes / NO
Sacrifice his Son? ……… Yes / NO… if Yes.. which son?So…. According to Topic… chronological order is very much relevant…so whatever we discussed is within the topic.. I didn’t go anything away from the topic raised…
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Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
Have we got answers to the topic?
Does the Quran Say……Yes / NO…
Did God tell? …….. Yes / NO
Ibrahim to Sacrifice ? …….. Yes / NO
Sacrifice his Son? ……… Yes / NO… if Yes.. which son?So…. According to Topic… chronological order is very much relevant…so whatever we discussed is within the topic.. I didn’t go anything away from the topic raised…
What is the characteristic trait of each of two sons of Ibrahim alahissalam.
Which son was given by acceding to the prayer for grant of ONE son?
Which son was given unsolicited?
This will support the point of jkan.
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Salaam,
-In my view, fidya seems to be related to something negative, i.e. concerns people wo are in need for someone to do fidya for them (or need to do fidya for themselves), because they are in a situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they prefer not to be.
The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.
That's what it is.... What is ransomed? Delivering/ freeing someone from his her unpleasant situations.... What is the unpleasant thing here...? Slaughter.....
Why it is tremendous slaughter? Coz Ismail was human....We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... That's how God helps and good doers....
I reiterated red highlighted your view from the beginning... But discarded and still hovering in it...
You well explained... Any normal person would, grasp it...After all it is a ransom from God and would god take something from Ibrahim to ransom his son? Normally for ransom and deliver something should be there but not, for God.. God ransomed /delivered...
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Salam,
Be careful not to distort the meaning of Allah's words to stick to your cognitive filter.
So let's try to let the text speaks..You have fulfilled the vision." So, this is how We reward the beneficent.
=> Abraham is described as "beneficent" because he did something that is charitable (and kill his own and only child is not a good-doear as i know!)
=> the root of the word ṣaddaqta/fulfilled-something also is using to mean the charity-due..This words refers to prove true by deeds and the use of the verbal form 2 (intensity and repetition) is without ambiguity
=> Pay attention to the word kadhālika/So that brings the consequence, the conclusion of the above.
This was a clear hardship.
=> "clear" No ambiguity in the signfication of the vision
=> "hardship" = This word is used as parasynonym of the word "sacrifice"
We redeemed him by means of an immense sacrifice.
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
=> Abraham was very concerned in the Quran that his legacy would not be lost in later generations..
We have perpetuate his memory in posterity..
=> The quran gives us what was the "reeemed" We have perpetuate his memory in posterity. (memory - to protect it) - this sentence is also use several times (to meditate) in this surah for other messengers... -
peace ibn_a,
The fidya restores/improves the situation (mentally and/or physically) in which they were.
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.From the " Abraham leaving scenario interpetation ", I understand that you relate fidya to something positive (or am I wrong?).
You say that " God exchanged Isaac/Ismael for/with a great/mighty sacrifice (i.e. the mighty/great deed Abraham did, by separating from his son), this is what was left in place of his son."I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
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peace ibn_a,
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.Peace...
No Brother Waqas.. Don’t grind it, it will become so complicated then…
2196 in all general translations or even your special article translation…
Two CAUSES or REASONS and three OPTIONS…
CAUSES 2 = Mareed & Azan Min RasiHI….
OPTIONS 3 = Siyam / Sadaqa / NusukiNot necessary to carry out the entire OPTIONS for one CAUSE or both the CAUSES…for instance… Mareed, then siyam is beyond probability … so go for another option which is possible…If Azan Min RasiHi then better Siyam, etc..
Here CAUSE which prompted to FIDYA are unpleasant or Ibn-a indicated (Physically or mentally not preferred).. so opted suitable one FIDYA out of three Options..
Why you give the impossible OPTION for the CAUSE to substantiate your claim.. as you stated.. if one Sick then Option Fast…Even in prescribed fasting when sick not recommended to fast..that's bizarre example -
Salaam,
That's what it is.... What is ransomed? Delivering/ freeing someone from his her unpleasant situations.... What is the unpleasant thing here...? Slaughter.....
Why it is tremendous slaughter? Coz Ismail was human....We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... That's how God helps and good doers....
I reiterated red highlighted your view from the beginning... But discarded and still hovering in it...
You well explained... Any normal person would, grasp it...After all it is a ransom from God and would god take something from Ibrahim to ransom his son? Normally for ransom and deliver something should be there but not, for God.. God ransomed /delivered...
Peace jkhan,
Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think thatWa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem وفدينه بذبح عظيم
can mean We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,
if I did correctly understand what you mean.
If you were right, I think that the word to use would be من min dhibhin atheem.
The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem
Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
peace ibn_a,
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God.I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
Peace Wakas,
I will try to respond later, God willing.
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Salaam,
Peace jkhan,
Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think thatWa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem وفدينه بذبح عظيم
can mean We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,
if I did correctly understand what you mean.
If you were right, I think that the word to use would be من min dhibhin atheem.
The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem
Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)
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I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)
Azeem is second element of Adjectival Phrase. And the Prepositional phrase is in the place of second object of preceding verb. A person is redeemed or absolved by some instrument which is mentioned by using Be.
The preposition بـِ designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is used for the following purposes
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For connectivity;
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For assistance; instrument
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For making a verb transitive;
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For an adverbial meaning;
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For accompaniment.
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For requital; and
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Extraneous; according to a rule for the negated predicate; also in interrogation.
http//haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm
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Azeem is second element of Adjectival Phrase. And the Prepositional phrase is in the place of second object of preceding verb. A person is redeemed or absolved by some instrument which is mentioned by using Be.
The preposition بـِ designates contiguity in its broadest sense. It has a wide range of uses including spatiotemporal, instrumental and manner adverbial. It is used for the following purposes
-
For connectivity;
-
For assistance; instrument
-
For making a verb transitive;
-
For an adverbial meaning;
-
For accompaniment.
-
For requital; and
-
Extraneous; according to a rule for the negated predicate; also in interrogation.
http//haqeeqat.pk/1.BismilAllah.htm
Thank you Brother Mazhr.... I received this link from one member... It elaborates what, Mazhr submitted above...
http//revivearabic.blogspot.com/2016/12/arabic-particles-learn-arabic-preposition-bi.html
I know all of you refer dictionaries...So can refer... 'bi' has various meaning n application....
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Salam,
Be careful not to distort the meaning of Allah's words to stick to your cognitive filter.
So let's try to let the text speaks..You have fulfilled the vision." SO, this is how We reward the beneficent.
=> Abraham is described as "beneficent" because he did something that is charitable (and kill his own and only child is not a good-doear as i know!)
=> the root of the word ṣaddaqta/fulfilled-something also is using to mean the charity-due..This words refers to prove true by deeds and the use of the verbal form 2 (intensity and repetition) is without ambiguity
=> Pay attention to the word kadhālika/So that brings the consequence, the conclusion of the above.
This was a clear hardship.
=> "clear" No ambiguity in the signfication of the vision
=> "hardship" = This word is used as parasynonym of the word "sacrifice"
We redeemed him by means of an immense sacrifice.
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
=> Abraham was very concerned in the Quran that his legacy would not be lost in later generations..
We have perpetuate his memory in posterity..
=> The quran gives us what was the "reeemed" We have perpetuate his memory in posterity. (memory - to protect it) - this sentence is also use several times (to meditate) in this surah for other messengers... -
I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)
Peace........................
I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 3701 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem - So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””
But for 37107 used word “WITH” WaFadainaHu BiZibhin Azeem – definitely there must be grammatical rules..but it depend how they understood the verse to apply (with or of)
It shows translators have found that “Bi” gives the English meaning “”OF”” as well…if it was a critical word and not befit to quran we could have negated all the translators to suit quran, but this is a simple preposition of “Bi”…so they can’t go wrong in most probability depending on the verse 37101…
Instead of “Min” the word “Bi” in verse no. 37107 really befits to the incident took place…even grammatically… either use “OF, Because of, in replacement for, etc… I don’t think the word “Min” (from) should be there to get the exact meaning… Coz incident (slaughtering didn’t take place…we should differentiate first the meaning and usage of “OF” and “FROM” in a nutshell..…
*I was fortunately saved OF an accident….in fact didn’t face/involve the accident, but could have been unless for some reason……….
** I was fortunately saved FROM the accident… in fact did face/involved in the accident, but nothing happened though others have faced with unfortunate outcome of the incident..
Or else.. when knowing clearly.. for example- Pudding is made OF milk… very obvious that milk was the main ingredient and by the smell or by the look..
** Pudding is made FROM Sea Grass … not so obvious what are the ingredients, unless explained by the one who made it or with some other way..
Thus, if in case Ibrahim was slaughtering some others and till reach to his son then he was saved… if that is the scenario then the usage of “FROM” is much appropriate coz he was saved FROM terrible Slaughtering taking place prior to his son’s slaughter.. God knows, which word to use and what is used is in quran that remains….....let’s trace what actually God meant by what HE used…that’s it…
How far my explanation befits to the situation, I don’t know, but I don’t see anything wrong in the wording of Quran to mean that “We ransomed him of tremendous Slaughter”… After all something happened between Ibrahim and his son… let’s get close to trace what happened. .In my side I have furnished the evidences to the extreme end within quran which I never knew prior to research honestly… I learned a lot from my own research and from others here in this topic….
- Pudding is made OF milk… very obvious that milk was the main ingredient and by the smell or by the look..
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I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 3701 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem - So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””Root ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.
This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm
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Salaam,
peace ibn_a,
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God....
Peace Wakas,
See it this way
My view is that (some) believers may feel guilty (mental situation), and/or feel excluded for not being able to do ( the) (some) commandments/recommandations, so giving them other options, could help remove/Reduce their guilty feelings, and/or feeling excluded ---> restore/improve their (mental) situation....
I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
red in quote mine.
peace ibn_a,
As I mentioned previously HERE the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. In my understanding it doesn't seem to make a difference.
Thus, it would be either
- exchanged him (the son) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced the son with a mighty sacrifice Abraham made (by separating from his son)
- exchanged him (Abraham) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced Abraham with a mighty sacrifice the son made (by separating from his father)
Interestingly, such an event would have effected both, so each one will have experienced the above. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result.
I take it as a play on words as mentioned in my article, quote
It is a self-contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else in the context to explain it. I'm personally not a fan of inserting things into the text to explain Quran when there is no warrant, and especially if there is a fitting explanation that does not require an insertion.
red in quote mine.
Positive was not about "a father leaving his son" but about "the fidya".
What I understand is that you see the fidya as a sort of reward that god gave to Abraham in exchange for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael.
If it is a raward , there would bee no need to use the word fidya, I think that a fidya is not the same as a reward.
You seem to have understood my view when you said "You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough.""A self-contained explanation" seems very abstract in my view.
God rewarded Abraham for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael with a mighty sacrifice.
While the mighty sacrifice (ie Abraham leaving his son Isaac/Ismael) was done by Abraham.
How did God reward Abraham for something Abraham did himself?والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Salaam,
Peace jkhan,
Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think thatWa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem وفدينه بذبح عظيم
can mean We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,
if I did correctly understand what you mean.
If you were right, I think that the word to use would be من min dhibhin atheem.
The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem
Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Peace jkhan,
If your explanation of 37107 in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu
for example ---> نجينه najjaynahu
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Peace jkhan,
If your explanation of 37107 in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu
for example ---> نجينه najjaynahu
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Peace....... .....
Look brother.... There is a truth and that's One...
It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding... God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu.. The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered... There is nothing to SAVE.... Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident.. That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity.... -
Salaam,
Peace....... .....
Look brother.... There is a truth and that's One...
It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding... God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu.. The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered... There is nothing to SAVE.... Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident.. That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity....Peace jkhan,
My intention was not to skip or jump , but to add some information to my previous post, as you can see I quoted my previous post.(maybe "najjaynahu" was not a good example)
Not my intention to alter , as you said the words of God are precise.
Trying to explain that "fidya" has the sense of exchange.- An example from Lane's Lexicon ( read in context of 37107 and 2229)
http//arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D9%81%D8%AF%D9%8A?cat=50
b3 وَــفَدَيْــنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ means And we made an animal prepared for sacrifice to be a ransom for him, and freed him from slaughter. (T, TA.)
b4 فَدَتْ نَفْسَهَا مِنْ زَوْجِهَا and ↓ افتدت mean She gave property to her husband so that she became free from him by divorce. (Msb, TA.)
This was also said by other members
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8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37107 as great/mighty/azeem?
Jkhan quotes "disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice", "something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.", "He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice "Your interpretation fails according to the Arabic "exchange/ransom" means to swap A with/for B, i.e. swap son for/with something else, NOT save him from something. Simply ask yourself what was the son replaced with? Then let us know.
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=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
...Root ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.
This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.
