Was Moses in Egypt?????
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Cool (●
A copy-artist can draw what he sees, right ?
Drawing from imagination ain't much different ...
https//scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/56953_158201404212912_6795019_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9
Ps. Does your father draw too ?
Wow bro your art is on point!!
I am nowhere near your skill level but I'll show you some of my old work for sure.
How do I link it or show it to you in an efficient way, I am not too techy despite my username haha -
Salam
Quran;02102 - And they followed what the devils had recited during the Kingdom of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Harut and Marut. But the two angels do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve ." And they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah. And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But they certainly knew that whoever purchased the magic would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew.
The verse above tells us that people of Sulaiman, were the descendants of the preexilic people who follow Musa. They were the descendants of the Sumerian, who were fond of magic. The verse tells us that these people, their descendants were from Babylon, Mesopotamia!
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Hello
I think moses was in egypt
Please see the following verse “for you are well aware of those from among you who profaned the Sabbath, whereupon We said unto them, "Be as apes despicable!" - 265
For me it was clear that the “apes despicable” refer to what scientists claim to be the common ape ancestor of humans and apes. and the skeletons of these hominids were found in africa ... and the transgressors of the sanbath were told to be depised apes - so what scientists claim as common ancestors are actually transgressors of sabbath (Yhe God also says He left then as deterring punishment in chapter 2 verse 66)
Note how The God uses an adjective to describe the apes whilst in chapter 5 verse 60 The God does not use any adjectives ro describe the apes
Regarding the pharaoh, I think it could perhaps be akhenaton.
According to historians he did not have sons. His wife nefertiti was taken away from all records and lost to history (in the Quran The God tells us she asked to be separated from pharaoh and to be have a house built
in paradise so I am guessing she became a muslim). Also the city of amarna was totally forgotten and destroyed and The God tells us in Quran that He destroyed pharaoh’s works and buildings (surah 7 verse 137)
akhenaton was also a tyrant as he completely changed the religion in egypt and shut down many temples. he me tioned he was son of atun (please check the hymns) so it wasnt really a monotheistic religion.
the city he built amarna was also on the nile riverPlease also google the first time the word pharaoh was used and results will come back either for akhenaton or during dynasty he ruled in
please also check this article
https//www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/was-pharaoh-akhenaten-so-cruel-he-forced-children-build-his-city-amarna-021429
my counter arguments
pharaoh in Quran says rivers (plural) floweing beneath him whilst amarna had only the nile i think
pharaohs advisors mention that they believed what their fore fathers believed whilst akhenaton changed the religion (albeit perhaps he changed it after a long period)
archeologists say akhenaton ruled only 17 years (they could veeery well be wrong though)
other candidate cities include thonis-heraclion
those were just my thought maybe im wrong
for those who claim persia, i think persia was rather where david and solomon were and zoroastrianism was actually formed from what was sent to david, the Zabor
please share your thoughts
peace
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What the Qur'an says in the stories about Musa and Yusuf does not match Egypt even by far. Impossible.
Salaam
please be more specific ) what exactly does the Quran say about Musa and Yusuf that does not fit egypt?
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please be more specific ) what exactly does the Quran say about Musa and Yusuf that does not fit egypt?
It took me a long time and effort some time ago to go through all this to my satisfaction. I can remember some specific things of it, but I would have to redo again to be truly specific. However, I will mention some things of what I remember, but if it really interests you the best hing is that you check for yourself all the mentions and non mentions but related narration concerning it and get your own idea.
First when you read the episodes of Yusuf and Musa you never are set in a complex, well established and extensive State as was ancient Egypt, particularly at the epoch at which are usually attributed the events with Musa and to a lesser degree with Yusuf.
The word Misr as a proper name is in fact given today to Egypt, but that Misr, or as pronnounced in Arabic, maSr, referred to the country Egypt, is in fact an extension of the name given to the capital, Cairo, proper name Al-Qahira, but which is rarely named so, but always referred to as MaSr. maSr is a common name which denotes the most important city in a land, If you say in Egypt or among egyptians that you are going or descending to maSr, it is Cairo.
That word in the Qur'an is that, the most important town in the land where a person named Fir3awn (arbitrarily transformed into Pharao) ruled at a certain time. It is not a title, but a proper name of a person (with its own meaning), and gramatically it is so handled in the Qur'an. The wife of this man, in the story of Musa is mentionned as So and So's wife and not as the wife of "the" so and so. It is the name of that particular person.
In the story of Yusuf, Yusuf is brought into maSr, the mos imortant town of the land, regardless of which the the land might be. And there he becomes an important servant of the lord of the place.Later on, when his brothers intend to go back again to where Yusuf has become an important person, their father tells them to enter through different gates, not to enter all of them through the same gate. ¿Can you tell that speaking about a country, and a big country at that? You can only do that with a city or town, which indeed has gates.
Then at one point in the story of Musa, Fir3awn boasts about his importance and how the "rivers" flow underneath his palace. That gives the egyptian setting completely away. When, how did the rivers or streams run underneath any palace in Egypt? Someone mentionned the different branches of the Nile, but the branches of the Nile, never, never to any Egyptian would be streams or rivers, but THE RIVER. May be for a tourist it would be conceivable, but not for anybody not completely ignorant and least of all for an Egyptian.
And that is another thing, why, even when speaking long stretches about Yusuf's and Musa's life in maSr and supposing it were Egypt, never, not a single time a river, simply as river, in singular, and never, not a single time the name is given. Egypt is the Nile, why not mention the Nile. That is in itself an interesting question which might give many hints about the whole Qura'nic text itself.
In fact that boasting of Fir3awn, when we disentangle it from the Bible narrations and stick to the Qur'an only, what it suggests as to the the setting of this maSr is a city on high, and several streams running it on the land below sorrounding it. May be a mountain setting.Another one when escape of the party that escaped with Musa and Haroon in the night was discovered, Fir3awn, the lord of maSr sent recruiters to gather a force to pursue the escaped, who, according to Fir3wan himself as he says in the Qur'an, were but a small party.
That cannot have happenned in Egypt. Would the King Ramses II, to whose kingship is attributed the episode, or any other king of Egypt for that matter, be in need to send recruiters to the towns in order to gather a force to pursue a party? As far as we know, there was no need for that. Egypt had an army, a professional army and, (proffessional police forces also), at that, very capable, and above all, like most everything in ancient Egypt at the time, extremely well organized.And here comes the trap of taking other sources for the Qur'an, Qur'an does not write about particular proples but rather about events in settings where they can be presented as an illustration of moral and human behavours, for guidance, not for presenting ethnicities or separating peoples.
And it is so much so, that in the Qur'an we are told about the pepople of Musa and the people of the maSr, but we are not told which peoples were they. If you read carefully 28.14-21 you can see how many roundabouts does the text in order to avoid naming a particular people. Never are we given an ethnicity. Only translators mostly put it in, because, in good faith, I guess, think that that is what it means, but the Qur'an, neither there nor anywhere else takes any interest in assigning ethnicities at all. Rather presenting this lesson or that lesson anywhere to give with them universal guidance.
Better, if anybody and read Arabic, go to the original and examine it minutely, to discern what is said and what we assume, even when it is not said or when it is said someting completely different. Translators, unfortunately have already a setting for most or many of the passages of the Qur'an which they have learnt without noticing that they were pre-conditionning the Qur'an.
Not to forget also, that recording things of every tenor, was a parcicular strength of the ancient Egyptian civilisation, writings have been found by the million about anything, but one, merely one, is yet to be found which touches even far anything to do with these themes or "peoples" or characters in history.
Nothing like each one doing her or his own appreciation of Qur'an text, otherwise it may seem as if one is pretending to convince anybody of anything in particular, which is not the case. Nobody, that I know, gets a prcentage. So it is just a matter of wanting to get to the bottom of things.
Salaam
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Salam Huruf.
I don’t agree with your premise that Egypt is not Eygypt.
Firstly, having water tributaries from the same source in Arabic are all called “rivers” as seen by the Quran calling the tributaries from one single source as such (see 274)
Secondly, the title Pharoah is associated in scripts with today’s Egypt.
Thirdly, Egyptians are fond of mummification - a skill necessary for the preservation of the body of Ramsees II - the Pharaoh of Moses’s time.
Finally, there is no issue that the name ‘Misr’ may have referred to a city or province within the larger kingdom (it could be the name of the main city), whereas the country itself carried a different name.
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Fine, Layth, you believe that, the Qur'an is there for anybody to check. Your arguments to do not seem such.
Salaam
Salam Huruf.
I don’t agree with your premise that Egypt is not Eygypt.
Firstly, having water tributaries from the same source in Arabic are all called “rivers” as seen by the Quran calling the tributaries from one single source as such (see 274)
Secondly, the title Pharoah is associated in scripts with today’s Egypt.
Thirdly, Egyptians are fond of mummification - a skill necessary for the preservation of the body of Ramsees II - the Pharaoh of Moses’s time.
Finally, there is no issue that the name ‘Misr’ may have referred to a city or province within the larger kingdom (it could be the name of the main city), whereas the country itself carried a different name.
I can't follow you. I can't see see in what way what you say is answering anything I wrote. But never mind, the Qur'an is there for anybody to verify things, besides all the studies and materials in egyptology are also there.
Also obviously everybody does not have to agree on anything.Salaam
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salam
I still believe moses was in egypt
The God uses the word qariya when He mentions city as in chapter 42 verse 7 when He tells us about the mother of cities. so why would misr/masr mean city?
regarding the gates of the city well maybe they entered the capital of egypt to meet yusuf
regarding wife of so and so note that even in yusuf narrative we are told the wife of so and so (wife of governor similar in moses narrative we are told wife of pharaoh)
and for the plural of rivers, please note that during narmer (or menes) time which mamy attribute as first pharaoh, the capital was memphis which was at the mouth of the nile delta (many streams flowing from that point)
do you think its a coincidence that the word pharaoh was used for the ruler at moses time and not yusuf time, and that according to historians rulers of egypt were first kings and that at a certain moment in time they were known as pharaohs?
we do not find archeological evidence of the exodus in my opinion because if i remember a verse, The God tells us He has made prophets and messengers of before ahadiths (narratives?)
btw may we assume the exodus was crossing the nile? The God tells them to enter egypt (dont know if before or after “expdus”) so maybe they inherited egypt before crossing a second time the sea?
again look at the verse (chapter 2, verses 65-66) where The God tells the transgressors of the sabbath to be despicable apes. dont you think its what scientist call the human/ape common ancestors whose bones were found in africa? The God clearly uses an adjective to describe what kind of apes He turned the trangressors of sabbath into. He alao mentions they are a deterrent punishment to those of their generation and subsequent generations. and we have found human-ape like fossils! for me that pinpoints to sabbath transgressors being in africa and hence moses narrative being in africa/egypt
on another note, the issue with many people in this site is that they try soo much to be different from “mainstream”. do not try to be different from mainstream just for the sake of being different. we do not know who The God permitted to understand the Quran so rather than trying to be different, try to understand the Quran as it is.
i think people also overcomplicate things as in ramadan is full moon or salat is not prayer by prostration and bowing (in my opinion it is clear ramadan is a month and salat is prostration (i personally prostrate by completely lying down with chin on floor as well as “traditional prostration” and bowing)
i think ramadan has to do with when the star sirius descends and is closest to earth maybe (surah 53 holds the answer in my opinion) - i.e. perhaps ramadan is dog days of summer. from my understanding the angels guard the stars and sirius being the brightest star we can see is perhaps where gabriel is
if i am wrong along the line i supplicate The God to please forgive me and to please increase my knowledge
peace
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When one wants things to be one way one can always make anything fit anything one likes. You may call the river Nile streams when it builds a delta, fine with me. You may make the word misr mean anything you like no matter wht because you have found that naother word in the Qur'an mean this or that, fine. Everything n be twisted to fit one's prejudices. You may put streams in Egypt nd turn fir3awn into something that did not exist in aciente Egypt. There was not such word as pharao but something that is taken to be pharao and which only hasin comon with pharao but one single letter and which does not mean king. But one can always invent something to justify it.
Never mind the country of the Nile converted into a land of streams, neve mind that in all the overwhelming abundance of documentation from acient Egyp there is not even a hint of anything like the "hebrews" and the "exodus" or of anything in any way ressembling those stories.
But the most beautiful is that, Ramses II or one of his dinasty sending some recruiters to gather a force to pursue a party of escaped. Is that the same king who kept at bay fierce armies all around? Poor thing havin to gather on the spot a few armed men?
Again, the Qur'a is there. Nobody is getting paid for convincing anybody of anything, and certainly sound egos are in need of anybody talling them "you are right", but certain things, when one can spare the time and the effort, must be said, so that people who have not been exposed to the reality of Qur'an as many who have studied it thoroughly see it, may have a chance to look at it from other points of departure than whose who have been shaped by other long standing conventions.
Salaam
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See in Yusuf 12.51
قَالَ مَا خَطْبُكُنَّ إِذْ رَاوَدتُّنَّ يُوسُفَ عَن نَّفْسِهِ ۚ قُلْنَ حَاشَ لِلَّـهِ مَا عَلِمْنَا عَلَيْهِ مِن سُوءٍ ۚ قَالَتِ امْرَأَتُ الْعَزِيزِ
الْآنَ حَصْحَصَ الْحَقُّ أَنَا رَاوَدتُّهُ عَن نَّفْسِهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَمِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ ﴿٥١It says imratu-al-aziz = wife of THE Aziz with article
Aziz titleSee At taHrim 66.10-11
ضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ اللَّـهِ شَيْئًا وَقِيلَ ادْخُلَا النَّارَ مَعَ الدَّاخِلِينَ ﴿١٠﴾ وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا امْرَأَتَ فِرْعَوْنَ إِذْ قَالَتْ رَبِّ ابْنِ لِي عِندَكَ بَيْتًا فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَنَجِّنِي مِن فِرْعَوْنَ وَعَمَلِهِ وَنَجِّنِي مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿١١﴾
it says
imara'ata luTin imra'a nuH without article
imara'ata fir3awn without articleFir3awn proper name of person
Salaam
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salam
i am not trying to make things fit. it is just clear to me that moses was in egypt. perhaps i am wrong, i never said i know for a fact.
so you say it is not egypt, so what is it then? what would make it not egypt but some other place? and what is this other place?
btw also in english and french we say the king’s wife (la femme du roi) and we also say pharaoh’s wife and not the pharaoh’s wife (la femme dE (of) pharaon and la femme dU (of the) pharaon are both correct). it doenst mean pharaoh is the name of a person.
btw just a side note, is it a coincidence that akhenaton was “erased” from history by the succeeding egyptian pharaohs and city he built amarna was layed to ruin? and also a coincidence that his wife nefertiti was erased from recorded history and no one knows for sure what happened to her or why she was erased? (remember in the Quran The God tells us pharaoh’s wife believed in The God) is it also a coincidence that she and akhenaton only had daughters?
im just guessing here it could very well not be akhenatonpeace
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The wife of fir3awn says the Qur'an, the same as the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut,
But the wife of THE aziz,It does not say the wife of the Fir3awn, no article before fir3awn just like the wife of Nuh without article, and wife of Lut, no article with the name of the husband
But article with the name of the title,
the wife of THE aziz
Salaam
