Lord of the universes! Rab ilAlamin !

shuaib

apple pie,

Again, not one mention of where the idea of LOCUSTS enters.

Again, ignored the verses that specifically speak of jinn LISTENING to Quran, WARNING people of the last day, etc etc.

I specifically requested for you to exegete the ayah yourself. What?s the matter?.may take too much of your precious time?or you don?t have any references?or, better yet?.you flat out don?t know how to exegete?

Perhaps I should have explained that I speak Arabic and this is not some complex meaning I am deriving/exegeting. Do you speak Arabic? Do you know how silly it is, what you are saying? The verse says in the most plain Arabic ya'teekum (came to YOU PLURAL) minKUM (from amongst you plural) and is addressed to insaan and jin! Where is the confusion here? What EXACTLY do you need more exegesis on? The term min, the term kum??? You could write a 5 page essay if you wanted to on all these terms!

If you actually owned a copy of Omar?s Dictionary (which you obviously don?t because that would require an expenditure that you are unwilling to put into the understanding of your book

I do not own Quranic Dictionary, NOR do I own Lane's. However, I have seen plenty of direct quotes from QD on this forum, and several other members including myself agreed that its definitions were OFTEN not true.

As far as what i DO own, I own a 20 volume copy of Lisaan-ul-Arab and a oversized 10-volume copy of Taj-ul-Aroos. The latter, you may or may not realize, is what Lane used as HIS primary source. Both of the lexicons I own are more ancient and more well respected than Lane's, although Lane's is good like I said before, but just too brief.

So believe me when I tell you that throwing some random definitions from QD is not going to impress me in the least, though you may impress yourself.

As far as the rest of your reply where you CLAIM that all of those points are mentioned in Lane's, do you own a CD-rom copy of Lane's. Could you just post word for word what is listed in Lane's to support your point, for my benefit? And then I will refute it using my more ancient more primary source material.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

Quote
If you actually owned a copy of Omar?s Dictionary (which you obviously don?t because that would require an expenditure that you are unwilling to put into the understanding of your book

I do not own Quranic Dictionary, NOR do I own Lane's.

Thanks for being honest.

Now?you can kindly retract your prior statements regarding my references to these Lexicons, as not being applicable to the discussion at hand?as you obviously do not know what they state?nor can you produce anything counter to what they state.

However, I have seen plenty of direct quotes from QD on this forum, and several other members including myself agreed that its definitions were OFTEN not true.

Then feel completely free to counter-reference any of the definitions that I posited.

If you could, you would have already done so.

As it is, you can only bark out your distain and dismissal of the truth?

As far as what i DO own, I own a 20 volume copy of Lisaan-ul-Arab and a oversized 10-volume copy of Taj-ul-Aroos. The latter, you may or may not realize, is what Lane used as HIS primary source. Both of the lexicons I own are more ancient and more well respected than Lane's, although Lane's is good like I said before, but just too brief.

If you own these Lexicons, then do you also know how to use them??

Referencing your position is what it is all about. You have yet to do this.

As far as Lane?s Lexicon, it is an integrated compilation of scores of all the highest quality Lexicography in one location. Hence, it draws upon the best, including the TA, and has been held in the highest regard for the past 150 years.

So believe me when I tell you that throwing some random definitions from QD is not going to impress me in the least, though you may impress yourself.

I don?t post ?random? definitions.

I post the tried and true definitions from the classic lexicons.

You can see this for yourself; I post what the Lexicons state.

You can verify this for yourself as truth if you are serious enough.

As far as the rest of your reply where you CLAIM that all of those points are mentioned in Lane's,

It?s fact.

Apparently, you are too lazy too look, as it may cause you to re-evaluate your position regarding your book of faith?

do you own a CD-rom copy of Lane's.

I own the eight volume set.

Could you just post word for word what is listed in Lane's to support your point, for my benefit?

Done.

But?..then again?how exactly would you even know?.as you don?t put any effort whatsoever into understanding your book of faith?.

You cannot even so much as ?google? a reply.

You can only blow smoke.

And then I will refute it using my more ancient more primary source material.

Begin...or do you require a written invitation...

We will be anxiously waiting.

Quote
I specifically requested for you to exegete the ayah yourself. What?s the matter?.may take too much of your precious time?or you don?t have any references?or, better yet?.you flat out don?t know how to exegete?

Perhaps I should have explained that I speak Arabic and this is not some complex meaning I am deriving/exegeting. Do you speak Arabic? Do you know how silly it is, what you are saying?

Please inform us exactly how the colloquial aspects of Modern Arabic are going to help you in determining the intended meanings of the written Classic Arabic of your book of faith??

I can?t wait to hear your reply.

The verse says in the most plain Arabic ya'teekum (came to YOU PLURAL) minKUM (from amongst you plural) and is addressed to insaan and jin! Where is the confusion here? What EXACTLY do you need more exegesis on? The term min, the term kum??? You could write a 5 page essay if you wanted to on all these terms!

Where are the references that you said that you had...?

Again, not one mention of where the idea of LOCUSTS enters.

Well?then let?s continue on with sura 55?

We already know that sura 55 is discussing Jinns and Humans.

Let?s review the intro, once, more, and see what 55.5 tells us?

Summary

The merciful. (55.1)
He taught/instructed the Koran. (55.2)
He created the human/mankind. (55.3)
He taught/instructed him the intended meaning. (55.4)
The sun and the moon with a count/calculation. (55.5)
AND, the star/planet
AND, and the trees, they prostrate. (55.6)
8 ) AND, the sky/space He rose it,
AND, He laid/put/raised the scale/measuring instrument. (55.7)

First?.the intro regarding what will be discussed in the following ayahs?

AAallamahu albayana

554 He taught/instructed him the evidence/logic.

= ?AAallama?

?AAallama? definition

Masculine singular. He taught. An impression, or impress; or a footstep, or track, or trace. Of a garment, or piece of cloth i.e. the ornamental, or figured, or variegated border of borders thereof; the figured or variegated, or embroidered, work or decoration, in the borders thereof. A way-mark; i.e. a thing set up or erected in the way, or, in the deserts or waterless deserts for guidance, for the guidance of those going astray. A separation between two lands; a mountain; a long mountain. A banner or standard, to which the soldiers congregate; the thing i.e. flag , or strip of cloth that is tied upon the spear; the chief of a people or party. A proper name of a person or place. It comes from the root ?alama?, which means to mark, sign, distinguish. He knew it; or he was, or became, acquainted with it; or he knew it truly, or certainly. He knew a thing intuitively and inferentially. He marked it. He, a man, had a fissure in his upper lip; or in one of its two sides. Knowledge.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 383 - 385

= ?bayana?

?bayana? definition

Masculine singular. A man, or thing, bearing evidence of a quality that he, or it, possesses. A man perspicuous, or clear, or distinct in speech or language; or chaste therein; or eloquent; fluent, elegant and elevated in speech and having little hesitation therein. Signifies the being distinct or apparent. The means by which one makes a thing distinct, apparent, manifest, evident, clear, plain, or perspicuous; this is of two kinds; one is a circumstantial indication or evidence; or a thing indicating or giving evidence of a circumstance or state that is a result, or an effect, of a quality or an attribute; the other is a verbal indication or evidence, either spoken or written; it is also applied to language that discovers and shows the meaning that is intended; and an explanation of confused and vague language; or the eduction of a thing from a state of dubiousness to a state of clearness; or making the meaning apparent to the mind so that it becomes distinct from other meanings and from what may be confounded with it. Clear; open to see; self expressive; severing. Declaration; explanation; argument; rhetoric; clear meaning; intelligent and distinct speech. It applies to both thought and speech, in as much as it comprises the faculty of making a thing or an idea apparent to the mind and conceptually distinct from other things as well as the power to express the cognition in spoken or written language. It comes from the root ?bana?, which means to be distinct and separate, far away, remote from, divorced (women), clear, obvious , appear, explain. It, a thing, or an affair, or a case, was, or became distinct as though separate from others, and thus apparent, manifest, evident, clear, plain, or perspicuous; and it was, or became known.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 285 - 289
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 70 ? 71

Thus, what follows is an explanation of the true and intended meaning that is to be made distinct?

Alshshamsu waalqamaru bihusbanin

555 The sun and the moon with a count/calculation.

= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolt; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 564 - 567
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 122 - 123
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 34

Thus, it is clear that we have our first clue in 55.5 that a calamity will occur that involves

A punishment in which man is tried
Evil
LOCUSTS
Smoke
Fire
Running of appointed courses
All of these things are stated in relation to the moon and sun which will be blotted-out due to the darkness of the swarms of demonic locusts, as foretold in the Book of Revelation?

Beginning to see the light??

No pun intended.

Compare this to what is stated in sura 18?

Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba wa-imma an tattakhitha feehim husnan

18.86 Until when he reached the sun's sunset/west, he found it departing/declining (setting) in (at a) water well/spring mixed with black (foul) mud, and he found at it a nation, We said "You the two horned one, either that you torture, and either you take in them a goodness/beauty."

= ?hami-atin?

?hami-atin? definition

A thing prohibited, or interdicted; and not to be approached. An epithet. A place of herbage, or pasture, and of water, prohibited to the people. The practicing abstinence; especially from things injurious in a case of sickness; the abstaining, or desisting, from eating. Disdain, scorn, or indignation, and anger; because a means of protection; care of what is sacred, or inviolable, or of what one is bound to respect, or honor, and to defend, and of religion, to avoid suspicion. Zealotry or tribal pride; affection; scorn indignation, stubborn disdain. It comes from the root ?hama?, which means the venom, or poison, and hurt, of a scorpion, and of anything that stings or bites; the sting of the hornet, and of the scorpion, and the like, and of the serpent; becomes the venom comes forth from it. He prohibited it, or interdicted it; or he protected it, defended it, or guarded it from, or against encroachment, invasion, or attack. Said of the day and of an oven. It was, or became vehemently hot; the iron nail was, or became, hot.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 651 - 652
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 138

= ?qarnayni?

?qarnayni? definition

The two horned one. It comes from the root ?qarana?, which means the part of the head of a human being which in an animal is the place whence the horn grows; or the side, or upper side, of the head; or more exactly the temporal ridge which is the middle and main part of the head (i.e. of the cranium), on the right and on the left. One who opposes or contends with another in science or in fight, an opponent; a competitor; an adversary; an antagonist; or ones equal or match or fellow. Ones equal in age. To join on thing to another, couple. People of one time succeeding another among whom is a prophet, or class of learned men, whether its years be many or few. Of a desert, the most elevated part. A pod like that of the locust tree. An issue of sweat. A cord of twisted bark which is bound upon the neck of each of the plowing bulls.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2987 - 2988
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 452 - 453

So?here the plot thickens, as we are given more information regarding the Jinn

They have the sting of a scorpion
They are in conjunction with the Second Beast with TWO HORNS (from the earth) as described in the Book of Revelation.

Thumma atbaAAa sababan

18.89 Then he followed the woman a reason/motive/connection.

= ?atbaAAa?

?atbaAAa? definition

Singular. He followed; to follow; follow up; make to follow; pursue, prosecute. The follower of women; or a passionate lover, and follower of a woman wherever she goes, and a sedulous seeker of women. A species of flying things, as well as birds. The shade or shadow. Also applied as an epithet to the legs of a beast. A jinnee, or genie, that accompanies a woman and follows her wherever she goes, loving her. It comes from the root ?tabi?a?, which means to follow, come with, imitate, obey, be the follower of. He followed; or went, or walked behind or after; him or it, namely a people or company of men; he went with him, or it, when the latter had passed by him. He accepted a reference from his debtor to another for the payment of what was owed to him.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 293 - 296
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 73 -74

Here, we are told that this type of Jinn likes to follow the ?woman??.an obvious referral to the woman as described in the Book of Revelation.

Hatta itha balagha bayna alssaddayni wajada min doonihima qawman la yakadoona yafqahoona qawlan

18.93 Until when he reached between the two barriers/obstacles/mountains, he found from other than them a nation they are not about to/almost understand a saying/opinion and belief.

= ?ssaddayni?

?ssaddayni? definition

Dual noun. Two barriers. It comes from the root ?sadda?, which means he closed, or closed up an interstice, or intervening space; and stopped or stopped up or repaired and made firm or strong. Said of a multitudinous swarm of locusts; said of a collection of clouds rising. A swarm of locusts obstructing the horizon; locusts that have obstructed, or obstructing the horizon, by their multitude; signifying that which obstructs the horizon and therefore an epithet. A black cloud that has risen in any tract of the sky. Shade or shadow; cover; protection. To make barrier, rampart, obstacle, bar, stop, close, obstruct, dam, shut. Any building or construction with which a place is closed or closed up, or stopped or stopped up; a dam; a thing intervening as a separation, a partition, a fence, a barrier, a rampart, or an obstacle or obstruction between two other things; and a mountain.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1328 - 1330
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 253

Here, we are told that the Jinns (i.e. LOCUSTS) are so large in number that they obstruct the horizon, just as stated in sura 55?

Qaloo ya tha alqarnayni inna ya/jooja wama/jooja mufsidoona fee al-ardi fahal najAAalu laka kharjan AAala an tajAAala baynana wabaynahum saddan

18.94 They said "You (owner) of the two horns, that Yagog and Magog (are) corrupting in the earth/Planet Earth, so do we make/put for you (a) royalty/retainer/expense/tribute on that you put/create between us and between them a barrier/obstacle ?"

= ?saddan?

?saddan? definition

Barrier. It comes from the root ?sadda?, which means he closed, or closed up an interstice, or intervening space; and stopped or stopped up or repaired and made firm or strong. Said of a multitudinous swarm of locusts; said of a collection of clouds rising. A swarm of locusts obstructing the horizon; locusts that have obstructed, or obstructing the horizon, by their multitude; signifying that which obstructs the horizon and therefore an epithet. A black cloud that has risen in any tract of the sky. Shade or shadow; cover; protection. To make barrier, rampart, obstacle, bar, stop, close, obstruct, dam, shut. Any building or construction with which a place is closed or closed up, or stopped or stopped up; a dam; a thing intervening as a separation, a partition, a fence, a barrier, a rampart, or an obstacle or obstruction between two other things; and a mountain.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1328 - 1330
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 253

And?once again?the swarms of locusts (i.e. JINN) are used in conjunction with the beast with two horns?

Here is a Koranic JINN recap

Intelligent
They have bodies
They are invisible
Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire
They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings
Demonical
Likened to a great serpent
8 ) The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.
An epithet applied to a man. A lion.
shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror.
A punishment in which man is tried
Evil
LOCUSTS
Smoke
Fire
Running of appointed courses
All of these things are stated in relation to the moon and sun which will be blotted-out due to the darkness of the swarms of demonic locusts, as foretold in the Book of Revelation?
18 ) They have the sting of a scorpion
They are in conjunction with the Second Beast with TWO HORNS (from the earth) as described in the Book of Revelation.

So?I ask you?.again?

With which of your Lord?s blessings will you deny?.?

shuaib

Dear Apple pie,

Whats with the twilight zone logic? You?re the one claiming jinn=locusts, therefore the burden of proof is on you, plain and simple. It?s not my burden to prove to you what jinn are, I am just questioning your evidence.

From the start I?ve asked you a very simple question. Show me where in LANE?S lexicon, it says that Jinn=locusts. I did not ask for the exegesis of other verses, I did not ask about QD, nor about Dictionary Glossary of the Quran. I asked specifically about the section on Jinn in Lanes, and not a paraphrase ?it says so,? I mean the EXACT wording and phrase that it uses to show that jinn=locusts. It should only be a line or partial sentence reference, so it shouldn?t be too hard.

The fact that you are doing everything BUT providing that evidence suggests you don?t have it! If I actually had a copy of Lane?s, this discussion would not have been needed.

Please inform us exactly how the colloquial aspects of Modern Arabic are going to help you in determining the intended meanings of the written Classic Arabic of your book of faith??

Jokes on you friend, for assuming I speak colloquial Arabic. I am not an arab. But why don?t you enlighten us on how colloquial, modern and classical Arabic differ in the terms ya?teekum and minkum. (this is obviously a rhetorical question, they don?t differ on those particular terms). My point was that asking someone to exegete a sentence like "the boy went to the store," makes you seem rather foolish. The meaning of that verse was OBVIOUS, no reading in between the lines is needed.

As far as QD is concerned, you can blab about it all you want, I perused it in stores, and have read its excerpts online... and in just that small sampling I found numerous errors/biases. That is a very inaccurate source to use... but of course you love it because it gives you more cannon fodder for your crusade. You honestly don't care whether its accurate or not, as long as it feeds into your propaganda. (Just one example of how QD is inaccurate, in its definition of khinzeer it claims the word is a combination of 2 roots, and impossibility in Arabic).

How do you react when muslims use apocryphal gospels to attack Christianity?

So please answer the simple question? does Lane?s specifically say anything about locusts in the section on jinn? Yes, or no. If yes, then WHAT exactly is said in Lane's?

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for finally mustering a reply?

Whats with the twilight zone logic? You?re the one claiming jinn=locusts, therefore the burden of proof is on you, plain and simple. It?s not my burden to prove to you what jinn are, I am just questioning your evidence.

What you are doing is falling flat on your face?again?.you must like it?

From the start I?ve asked you a very simple question. Show me where in LANE?S lexicon, it says that Jinn=locusts. I did not ask for the exegesis of other verses, I did not ask about QD, nor about Dictionary Glossary of the Quran. I asked specifically about the section on Jinn in Lanes, and not a paraphrase ?it says so,? I mean the EXACT wording and phrase that it uses to show that jinn=locusts. It should only be a line or partial sentence reference, so it shouldn?t be too hard.

I have to ask if you somehow loose your vision when reading my posts?

The fact that you are doing everything BUT providing that evidence suggests you don?t have it! If I actually had a copy of Lane?s, this discussion would not have been needed.

Maybe you could help us out with your fictitious 20 volume ?copy of Lisaan-ul-Arab and a oversized 10-volume copy of Taj-ul-Aroos"?. roll

Quote
Please inform us exactly how the colloquial aspects of Modern Arabic are going to help you in determining the intended meanings of the written Classic Arabic of your book of faith??

Jokes on you friend, for assuming I speak colloquial Arabic. I am not an arab.

Gosh?what a surprise? D

As far as QD is concerned, you can blab about it all you want, I perused it in stores, and have read its excerpts online... and in just that small sampling I found numerous errors/biases. That is a very inaccurate source to use... but of course you love it because it gives you more cannon fodder for your crusade. You honestly don't care whether its accurate or not, as long as it feeds into your propaganda. (Just one example of how QD is inaccurate, in its definition of khinzeer it claims the word is a combination of 2 roots, and impossibility in Arabic).

What happened to the specific examples that I asked for??

How do you react when muslims use apocryphal gospels to attack Christianity?

Why don?t you start a new thread, as you have shown that you know nothing about this one?

So please answer the simple question? does Lane?s specifically say anything about locusts in the section on jinn? Yes, or no. If yes, then WHAT exactly is said in Lane's?

I just love it when Muslims come to a Christian for answers that pertain to their book of faith.

The answer is yes.

Here?

And here?

Thanks?

shuaib

hi apple pie,

Thanks for finally mustering a reply?

You're welcome, actually I do have quite a busy life outside the forums. I only stop by once in a while usually.

I have to ask if you somehow loose your vision when reading my posts?

No, actually I've read all of the irrelevant fluff you've posted.

Don't you feel stupid yet apple pie? It amazes me. I've asked you the simplest of questions that does not require ANY interpretation or thought. I've simply asked WHERE in Lane's lexicon is there a statement that equates jinn with demonic locusts. How is it that you can't/WONT even answer a question that does not even require any thought? Are you, say, HIDING SOMETHING??

Still waiting.

Here?

And here?

Well here is where your ignorance is being exposed.

First of all, the second word HUSBAAN, you left out the HA. Can you even read Arabic? Neither of these 2 words has ANYTHING to do with locusts OR the root JINN. They are different roots, and the WHOLE time we have been talking about the root of JINN. What is said about the word/root JINN in Lane's lexicon?

Do YOU even own a copy of Lane's? I'm beginning to doubt it! I wish someone on this forum who had a CD-rom copy would post the page for us.

Wakas

peace shuaib, all,

From PRL

= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk

I remember writing this root and I have a copy of Lanes. It does not mention 'locusts' in the root. I checked it again.

As a side note
I noted something interesting, when it says iblis became of the JNN , it says this means he adopted the disposition of the JNN. Similar to us humans when people compare us to animals "strong as a Lion" "he's like a fox" "they are sheep" etc. it doesn't mean we are or become the animal, we take on its characteristics. Just like iBLiS took on the characteristics of the JNN, i.e. unsound etc. (roots can be checked in PRL).

Wakas

shuaib

salam wakas,

thanks for posting that. i had a feeling that was the case (I didn't find any such nonsense in my lexicons either), and it explains our christian friend's great reluctance at being straightforward. I forgot about Iblis actually. I'm surprised our Christian friend didn't realize that he was claiming that Iblis is actually a locust.

dear apple pie,

Let me just ask you, would Jesus have done that? Firstly, half your posts are wise-cracks, and then it appears the other half are filled with false information. From the start you were asked a simple question, and instead of a simple answer, you gave smokescreen after smokescreen. It appears you are on a crusade with a mission to defame Islam any which way you can.. but being a Christian, at least be more straightforward and honest, and if you dont know or don't understand, just say so.

Using these kinds of methods, the only person you hurt is yourself.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply.

I've simply asked WHERE in Lane's lexicon is there a statement that equates jinn with demonic locusts.

The equating of Jinn to Locusts is to be found by defining the Arabic terms and then plugging them into the contexts of the ayahs and suras.

This is how proper exegesis is performed.

As it is, you cannot allow yourself to do either?

Let me show you Lane?s classic definitions, and where they are used in your book of faith?

Let?s first review this example?

= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolt; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 564 - 567
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 122 - 123
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 34

?husbanin? can be found in Sura 55.5?.and is mentioned in conjunction with the sun and moon (i.e. blocking them from view, as described in the Book of Revelation).

And?.what is blocking the view??

Locusts; dust; smoke; fire?.

Summary

The merciful. (551)
He taught/instructed the Koran. (552)
He created the human/mankind. (553)
He taught/instructed him the evidence/logic. (554)
The sun and the moon with a count/calculation. (555)
AND, the star/planet
AND, and the trees, they (B) prostrate. (556)
8 ) AND, the sky/space He rose it,
AND, He laid/put/raised the scale/measuring instrument. (557)
That you not tyrannize/exceed the limit in the scale/measuring instrument. (558 )
AND, keep up the weight/measure with the just/equitable,
AND, do not reduce/decrease (cheat) in the scale/measuring instrument. (559)
AND, the earth/Planet Earth, He laid it for the creation. (5510)
In it (are) fruits
AND, the palm trees that of the buds/covers from which fruits
AND, flowers emerge. (5511)
AND, the seed/grain (of) the husk/chaff/external cover of seeds,
18 ) AND, the basil/fragrant plants. (5512)
SO, with which (of) your Lord's blessings (do) you deny/falsify?
He created the human/mankind from dry mud/clay as the pottery/earthenware. (55.14)
AND, He created the Jinn from (the) flaming blazing torch mixed with blackened smoke from fire. (55.15)

Thus, in this Biblical Eschatological sura, we already have the confirmation that Locusts have made their appearance on the scene, by the above definition?

Now?how do we know that the locusts are none other than the Jinn??

By simply looking at the context.

Observe that starting at ayah 55.5 (where the locusts are mentioned), we have concomitance via ?wa? and sequence via ?fa? all the way up to the Jinn in 55.15?

Hence, there can be no doubt that the locusts are just one attribute of the Jinn?.this is in addition to the other 19 that I posted in an earlier post ?.that got you so riled up?.

Compare to 55.15?

Wakhalaqa aljanna min marijin min narin

5515 And He created the Jinn from flaming blazing torch mixed with blackened smoke from fire.

= ?marijin?

?marijin? definition

A confused affair, or case; or error. Mixture, a mixture, or that which is mixed. A mixture of fire; or flame mixed with the black substance of fire; or flame of fire; or fire without smoke, whereof was created El-Jann, i.e. Iblees, the father of the Jinn, or Genii, or the Jinn collectively. Flame; fire free from smoke. It comes from the root ?maraja?, which means he (a beast of carriage) fed in a pasture. He sent a beast of carriage to pasture; or left it to pasture wheresoever it would; he pastured it. He mixed a thing with another thing, or two things together. He hath let them flow freely, yet so that one does not become mixed with the other; he hath made them flow. He marred or spoiled his affair. It (a deposit, and a covenant, and religion) became corrupt; impaired; spoiled; marred; or disordered. It (a ring on the finger, and an arrow) became unsteady.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, p. 2704
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 529

Here?we are told that Satan and the Jinn both emanate from the smoke.

Hence?.this is the same thing as stated in the Book of Revelation when the Abyss is opened and the Demonic locusts are set free such that they block out the light of day for their multitudes?

We have our first clue that Jinn are the locusts?

Next?from sura 18?

= ?ssaddayni?

?ssaddayni? definition

Dual noun. Two barriers. It comes from the root ?sadda?, which means he closed, or closed up an interstice, or intervening space; and stopped or stopped up or repaired and made firm or strong. Said of a multitudinous swarm of locusts; said of a collection of clouds rising. A swarm of locusts obstructing the horizon; locusts that have obstructed, or obstructing the horizon, by their multitude; signifying that which obstructs the horizon and therefore an epithet. A black cloud that has risen in any tract of the sky. Shade or shadow; cover; protection. To make barrier, rampart, obstacle, bar, stop, close, obstruct, dam, shut. Any building or construction with which a place is closed or closed up, or stopped or stopped up; a dam; a thing intervening as a separation, a partition, a fence, a barrier, a rampart, or an obstacle or obstruction between two other things; and a mountain.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1328 - 1330
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 253

It would be rather hard for the Muslim to miss the obvious Book of Revelation material contained in sura 18??here we have the second beast with two horns, from the earth?and, once again?the swarms of locusts?i.e. Jinn

Let me just ask you, would Jesus have done that?

Done what?lie like you did??

Lie #1)?..your quote?
Perhaps I should have explained that I speak Arabic

Lie #2)?..your quote?
As far as what i DO own, I own a 20 volume copy of Lisaan-ul-Arab

Lie #3)?..your quote?
and a oversized 10-volume copy of Taj-ul-Aroos
.

No thanks?.

Firstly, half your posts are wise-cracks, and then it appears the other half is filled with false information.

Operative word??appears??.

Since you are unable to refute my material?.how exactly would you even know??

Your constant begging & pleading with a Christian to give you the definitions of the words in your book of faith, is rather degrading towards you?.don?t you think??

It is rather clear that you cannot be bothered with matters that require serious inquiry.

After all?.you are Muslim?

Take care?

Tay

Peace Apple Pie,

Your comments to Shuaib

It is rather clear that you cannot be bothered with matters that require serious inquiry.
After all?.you are Muslim?

reflect the same nasty attitude that you started with. Why are you here?
If you have a problem with Muslims, then leave.

Peace,
Tay

shuaib

salam tay,

ya i dont think apple pie realizes that all he does is foster dislike towards the religion he is representing. it's ironic that his is mostly a message of hate whereas his religion supposedly is a religion of love. To say "After all, you are a Muslim," shows what his true motivations are and what racist thoughts go on in his mind.

apple pie,

I'll ignore the snide remarks again (turn the other cheek).

There are 2 problems with your method of "exegesis."

You employ inaccurate (apocryphal) sources.

I've already mentioned the problems with QD (e.g., claims that a word is composed of 2 roots).

You quote a source which claims a primary meaning of husbaan is calamity, which is totally untrue. HUSBAAN is a neutral word that primarily is used to indicate a specified amount or return, but primarily the meaning is about counting. It does not mean calamity anymore than RESULT means calamity. In surah 55 (which you quote) it is used to claim that the sun/moon are under hisaab/counting i.e. a measured orbit.

It has NOTHING to do with blockage, or locusts.

(Incidentally, the reference for all of my claims here are straight from Lisaan-ul-Arab, Taj-ul-Aroos, or Lughaat-ul-Quran).

Using sources with false/biased information will lead to INCORRECT exegesis. You claim to use Lane's/other sources, but I think you rely primarily on the "other sources." You've tried pulling the wool over our eyes once already with respect to the root of jinn, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.

You use faulty logic in your exegesis.

The boy went to the store. And there he bought some bread.

According to your logic, the boy is a kind of bread. Needless to say this is a ridiculous statement, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Randomly linking words, claiming that just because the sentences are juxtaposed or connected with fa or wa, that the words are linked in meaning!

This reflects that you have made no real attempt to understand the verse, you simply are looking for cannon fodder for your crusade.

But that brings us back to the original question... does it say in Lane's that jinn have anything to do with locusts??? NO! The foremost Western Arabist according to you, did not think so, nor do ANY other lexicographers! And I bet, not even your faulty sources have directly claimed that jinn=locusts. You refuse to admit it but this idea is purely your own "brain"child. Nowhere do we find a person linking jinn with locusts except in your posts.

So in the future, use more accurate sources and use proper logic. The 3 equals 1 logic does not fly with most Muslims. And I bet most Christians would not approve of your tactics/rhetoric either.

Incidentally, OOPS of the day committed by apple pie

= ?marijin?

?marijin? definition

A confused affair, or case; or error. Mixture, a mixture, or that which is mixed. A mixture of fire; or flame mixed with the black substance of fire; or flame of fire; or fire without smoke, whereof was created El-Jann, i.e. Iblees, the father of the Jinn, or Genii, or the Jinn collectively. Flame; fire free from smoke. ....

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, p. 2704
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 529

Here?we are told that Satan and the Jinn both emanate from the smoke.

wildguest1956

peace shuaib, all,

From PRL

= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk

Peace Wakas,

Could you quote the dictionnaries where you have found the informations I Have underlined ?

Thanks in advance,

JM

Wakas

peace JM,

Its from Lane's Lexicon. I have the CD Rom and unfortunately it doesn't give page references but anyone who has the actual books can verify what I wrote and provide a specific page reference if you want it.

Some of it can also be found in DofQ.

Wakas

unknownuser

Your constant begging & pleading with a Christian to give you the definitions of the words in your book of faith, is rather degrading towards you?.don?t you think??

Peace Apple Pie,

Your language has become quite unacceptable not to mention the flawed logic contained therein. I might add the degrading behaviour is in the manner you speak as an intellectual bully, nevermind what you pontificate.

It could be a desperation on your part since you are not making progress, you are becoming increasingly rhetorical and abusive. Whatever your reason this is not acceptable.

Salaam All,

If anyone wants to examine the faulty logic Apple Pie demonstrates just check out his logical reasoning. Here he asserts that someone is begging and pleading. Whether this is true or false is uncertain, and can not be proven, we can speculate on motives but there is no conclusive evidence. If a person makes such a false logical deduction how can you expect him to get his message right?

Other logical misconstructs are seeing things physically in all conditions as in the fire example. I see Apple Pie exhibiting fiery temperament and by his reasoning that would make him a demonic locust or satan....If the planes have wings then they must be angels etc...well OK that is a "clue"...

Apple Pie,

Your sincere and intellectually honest postings are welcome. However, learn something about human nature. Lay out the facts as you see it and let your message be in its emerging self. If you have to assert your message...well then you are sending other messages about you and people focus on that...

Peace

Wakas

peace All,

I had a brief discussion with Apple Pie a while ago (Oct 04), and based on that discussion, I decided not to read Apple's future posts.

In a way, its a pity, because the quality of information presented is very good, but the logic is severely flawed. Most, if not all, of Apple's arguments can be defeated by cross-referencing occurrence.

Also, I never said anything until now because people need to find out for themselves and make up their own mind if someone's posts are worthy of reading or not, but I can now see its not just me who thinks this.

Wakas

Tay

Peace Wakas,

Personally speaking, I agree, in that he does present some very good information. This is why I choose to keep reading his posts. I also agree that the connections he makes are flawed, which is a lesson in itself. In all, I have no problem with the man/woman, though I can no longer debate with him/her as it has proven fruitless time and again.

But I do have a problem with sweeping insults and find it difficult to bite my tongue in those situations where a person is disrespectful, particularly in this case, since the moderators(yourself included) have been more than welcoming and tolerant towards him/her.

Peace,
Tay

Andya_Primanda

I agree with Tay, Apple Pie has been abusing our tolerance. I kinda expected Apple to be a fair debater that is capable is saying 'I am wrong' if proven wrong, but I now know that this person is not like that.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your kind words?

You quote a source which claims a primary meaning of husbaan is calamity, which is totally untrue. HUSBAAN is a neutral word that primarily is used to indicate a specified amount or return, but primarily the meaning is about counting. It does not mean calamity anymore than RESULT means calamity. In surah 55 (which you quote) it is used to claim that the sun/moon are under hisaab/counting i.e. a measured orbit.

It has NOTHING to do with blockage, or locusts.

(Incidentally, the reference for all of my claims here are straight from Lisaan-ul-Arab, Taj-ul-Aroos, or Lughaat-ul-Quran).

Thanks for positing your unreferenced opinion on the matter.

However, the classic definitions, as I have demonstrated, quite plainly paint the picture of a great calamity, comprised of punishment, evil, locusts, dust, smoke, and fire.

Using sources with false/biased information will lead to INCORRECT exegesis. You claim to use Lane's/other sources, but I think you rely primarily on the "other sources." You've tried pulling the wool over our eyes once already with respect to the root of jinn, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.

Lane is the ?gold standard? in properly exegeting the Koran.

It is liquid gold, actually.

You use faulty logic in your exegesis.

The boy went to the store. And there he bought some bread.

According to your logic, the boy is a kind of bread. Needless to say this is a ridiculous statement, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Randomly linking words, claiming that just because the sentences are juxtaposed or connected with fa or wa, that the words are linked in meaning!

I have presented the context of the ayahs used in my exegesis?.and you are free to check them for yourself.

Context?after all...is what clinches the whole deal?

But that brings us back to the original question... does it say in Lane's that jinn have anything to do with locusts??? NO! The foremost Western Arabist according to you, did not think so, nor do ANY other lexicographers! And I bet, not even your faulty sources have directly claimed that jinn=locusts. You refuse to admit it but this idea is purely your own "brain"child. Nowhere do we find a person linking jinn with locusts except in your posts.

I have already repeatedly answered your redd herring several times.

As you stated previously?

Quote
I've simply asked WHERE in Lane's lexicon is there a statement that equates jinn with demonic locusts.

Lane has indeed provided the classic definitions that lend ample credence to equate the Jinn to Locusts.

Let?s review this simple example?

Fabi-ayyi ala-i rabbikuma tukaththibani

5513 Then with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny?

= ?tukaththibani?

?tukaththibani? definition

Masculine dual. Will you twain deny. It comes from the root ?kadhaba?, which means to lie, say what is not a fact, lie to, falsely invent, tell lies about or against, fabricate a lie, relate a lie, say a falsehood, be wrong, be cut off, deceive, disappoint the expectation of. It is also said to signify he spoke truth; so as to bear two contradictory meanings.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2597 - 2600
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 481 ? 482

Observe that this question is directed at TWO entities.

What are the two entities??

Mankind.

Jinn.

This same exact phrase is repeated all the way through sura 55.

Ever wonder why?.?

It is because the entire sura pertains to the two.

Interestingly?..the very first time that this phrase is used in the sura, occurs in 55.13.

Let?s look?

The merciful. (551)
He taught/instructed the Koran. (552)
He created the human/mankind. (553)
He taught/instructed him the evidence/logic. (554)
The sun and the moon with a Calamity. (555)
AND, the star/planet
AND, and the trees, they (B) prostrate. (556)
8 ) AND, the sky/space He rose it,
AND, He laid/put/raised the scale/measuring instrument. (557)
That you not tyrannize/exceed the limit in the scale/measuring instrument. (558 )
AND, keep up the weight/measure with the just/equitable,
AND, do not reduce/decrease (cheat) in the scale/measuring instrument. (559)
AND, the earth/Planet Earth, He laid it for the creation. (5510)
In it (are) fruits
AND, the palm trees that of the buds/covers from which fruits
AND, flowers emerge. (5511)
AND, the seed/grain (of) the husk/chaff/external cover of seeds,
18 ) AND, the basil/fragrant plants. (5512)
SO, with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny? (55.13)
He created the human/mankind from dry mud/clay as the pottery/earthenware. (55.14)
AND, He created the Jinn from (the) flaming blazing torch mixed with blackened smoke from fire. (55.15)

Thus?we can clearly see that this phrase begins questioning Mankind and the Jinn BEFORE the ?creation? of Jinn in 55.15?..

This tells us that both Mankind and the Jinn had to have been described prior to 55.13.

Hence, since we now know that LOCUSTS are mentioned in 55.5, we can become quite confident that we were given an attribute of the Jinn in this ayah?

Additionally, guess where also makes an appearance?.?

That?s right?right in the heart of Jinn territory?.18.40?

Lane notes that the definition of LOCUSTS has also been assigned to 18.40?

Thus?we can see the evidence building beyond reasonable doubt?

Lastly?.

I?m glad to see that you only had to edit your post four times?

Last edited by shuaib on Tue May 10, 2005 746 pm; edited 4 times in total

Thanks?

khalil

Peace ApplePie

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

unknownuser

Thanks for positing your unreferenced opinion on the matter.

However, the classic definitions, as I have demonstrated, quite plainly paint the picture of a great calamity, comprised of punishment, evil, locusts, dust, smoke, and fire.

Does not need to be referenced, it was done so earlier.

Nevemind. Lets use your "definition"

= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolt; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

Your assertion is not correct since

1-) You are ignoring many other definitions, the definition does not have to be calamity, punishment etc...you can not eliminate "appointed courses" of the sun and the moon for example.

2-) You failed to link "jinn" in any shape or form, you used the planes have wings then they must be angels logic. You need tangible evidence not wishful thinking

Lastly?.

I?m glad to see that you only had to edit your post four times?

When you get to distinguish between "loose" and "lose" then turn your charm on us lol

PS Don't thank or I'll throw up!

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your reply?

Apple Pie wrote

Thanks for positing your unreferenced opinion on the matter.

However, the classic definitions, as I have demonstrated, quite plainly paint the picture of a great calamity, comprised of punishment, evil, locusts, dust, smoke, and fire.

Does not need to be referenced, it was done so earlier.

References from books need page numbers.

Nevemind. Lets use your "definition"

Quote
= ?husbanin?

?husbanin? definition

Verb. Noun. Plural. Calamity; Punishment; an affliction with which a man is tried; Evil; Mischief; Locusts; Dust; Smoke; Fire; definite reckoning; appointed courses; Numbering; Revolving firmament; computation, account, Running appointed and scheduled courses; Affliction; Thunderbolt; it is also used as a collective noun meaning darts or lightning. It comes from the root ?hasiba?, which means to think; consider; suppose, imagine, be of opinion, to reckon, calculate.

Your assertion is not correct since

1-) You are ignoring many other definitions, the definition does not have to be calamity, punishment etc...you can not eliminate "appointed courses" of the sun and the moon for example.
Indeed?.let?s look at appointed courses?

?Running appointed and scheduled courses? is the one that that you have underlined.

So?.what exactly would be running?.?

Let?s look?

97

kai ta omoiwmata twn akridwn omoia ippois htoimasmenois eis polemon kai epi tas kefalas autwn ws stefanoi omoioi crusw kai ta proswpa autwn ws proswpa anqrwpwn

And the likenesses of the locusts like horses having been prepared for war; and on the heads of them as crowns like gold; and the faces of them as the faces of men.

The answer is clear?

The locusts (i.e. Jinn) are in the likeness of horses.

The horses are running.

That is how they are described in both the Book of Revelation and subsequently copied-over by the authors of the Koran.

2-) You failed to link "jinn" in any shape or form, you used the planes have wings then they must be angels logic. You need tangible evidence not wishful thinking

Actually, the evidence is overwhelming.

PS Don't thank or I'll throw up!

Thanks?