Honestly This topic is leading me to disbelieve

Mahdi20

Yes, Allah has already prescribed for them...

you expect Allah must repeat the same words through the whole Quran, just to entertain your dirty mind? rotfl

Brother you dont know what you say…..

What is this verse about!!!???? Having sex? So someone can have sex with his mma

Marrying??? Then someone can marry his wife (LoL) if its about marriage…. Why God may say those who dont marry , save with their wives and mma s

Mahdi20

Where is the word "sex"?

It just says "halal/lawful", ie. for marriage..

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611550.msg434768#msg434768

show me the word "making sex"... which part of it?

U said 7029-30 is about marriage….

So one person can only marry with his wife and mma!!!

الا limit the options to only these two!

Mahdi20

Then show me it is not; with consistent interpretation/ 482 RULE! ... no point you're insisting on your wishful thinking...

How? Why? What verse to invalidate all those rules?

What makes "slavegirls" means "fornication"? What verse? dictionary? rotfl

I didnt say slavegirls means fornication….
But this verse say u must guard your فروج
Execpt to your wife and slave girl
What does it mean?!

Mahdi20

Where is the answer? rotfl

Want to skip and play new game? fine...

So where does the Quran allows you to freely marry more than one? show me, prove me with verses from the Quran.

Answering to what?

Quran doesnt allow to freely marry more than 1

Mahdi20

GUARD = AVOID = "DO NOT GO NEAR TO FORNICATION"... go open your dictionary rotfl

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611550.msg434768#msg434768

LoL….

So this verse say dont go near fornication….
But u can have fornication with your wife and slave!!(according to your translation)

Mahdi20

You're laughing at yourself, why so stupid? rotfl

No moretalk… i think i dont understand what you say because i am “Brainless

Mahdi20

See? it's not the Quran at all.. it all about your dirty mind, ie. "slavegirls" means "fornication" rotfl

i never said such thing….

Mahdi20

Okay.. rotfl

i corrected it…. Go see previous pages

Edit Go buy female slavesand have sex with them(or have sex with uour already owned slaves)

Yes i said it… but i didnt said slavegirl=fornication

i said quran allow sex with slave in 7029-30

But as it looks it didnt count as fornication…. Cuz fornication have punishment …. But quran allow sex with slave IMO

jkhan

How nonsensical a person can be.. When reading Quran one should always take all relevant verses for support and not stick with one verse..

I address to all those who is wishfully thinking like mahdi20..

Are believers only married men? What about unmarried men... Don't they need to guard chastity to be a real Believer.. "Marriage obligatory before sex" any fool can understand within Quran that.. From the beginning I explained that...

424 ..Why one need to marry an already married MMA without having divorced?
What the bloody reason to marry her if she is your MMA and if you are free and permitted to breach chastity (ie sex) with her(being MMA) as per 56 abd 7030...

Is brain this much weak without being able to reflect a simple rudimentary logic? Or hearts are locked up?

What happens if one have sex with this woman described above MMA (already married but not divorced) and not married yet again while she is someone who is given permission to marry by believers? Can her master have sex with her freely.. Is it what 56 says... Nonsensical thoughts at its best...

Whisk him 100 lashes if he does so... That's fornication ..
Nearing a woman who is allowed for you to marry without marriage ... You are cherry picking with God's clear verses of 56 abd 7030..

Are MMA allowed for you to marry or not? Then who gave authority to have sex with them before that...

I am done with this super nonsensical debate ..
This is the last time I would respond... Enough is enough..

amin

These verses and most from Quran should be read in perspective of the situation then, now a days less war and do you think the condition of women are more better with better rights?, if countries affected by war and adversities their condition will be still worst, they loose their support, this is not only in Arabia, its everywhere, in some countries there were a separate system, these women were made to serve the temples and the kings/rich, present times too there are women staying in specific areas serve men, prostitution is there in most countries.

Yes, I think The right hand or rightfully possessed is some women in one's support but war captives or those refugees etc...There is no forced sex here, theres no cheating, not even sex for money and this looks to be the normal then.

Wakas

Peace wakas

From the same verses that you mentioned in study quran

Sex
conception and pregnancy (see Pregnancy)
consort with wives in a goodly manner 419
don't force female slaves into prostitution 2433
during Ramadhan 2187
is what your spouse is for, so do it! 2187, 2222-223
with slaves is legal 236, 3350, 3352, 7030 (alternate interpretation)

(i noticed i wrongly writed sex with captured enemy women… captives must be released…. But anyway the problem isnt solved….. i change Go capture enemy women and have sex with them….. i am trying tooooo hard to prove that quran dont say such things…. But i am failed —-> Go buy female slavesand have sex with them(or have sex with uour already owned slaves)i am trying tooooo hard to prove that quran dont say such things…. But i am failed)

Thanks for correcting yourself. To clarify StudyQuran links to an external topical index on IslamiCity which states the part you highlighted in black bold.

The reason I asked you what I did is it seems to me you are making baseless/unevidenced claims. You should make sure the claims you make are correct first.

The part of yours that I have highlighted in red, please provide the evidence for each

which verse says buy female slaves?
what is the Arabic word for "slaves" that you are referring to?
which verse says have sex with slaves?

good_logic

Peace Mahdi20.

What you are asked is simple
Where do you get that MMA= slaves /slave girls from ?
What is the Arabic word for slave/slaves?

You are not reflecting and reading what is said to you.
In that case, implore GOD to help you or part company from your issue and Qoran.

I am not expecting to benefit you with whatever I will say.However I will tell you this
I had issues, but I always trust GOD and I cannot turn back on my heels from GOD just because I have issues . Who would I turn to in that case? I will only turn back to my own devils or others and I will stay utterly confused!

Many here are advising you to stay with the right path. Stay with them if you wish a little more and be patient.
GOD s guidance is the best and only true guidance. We are commanded to submit to the Lord of the universe and trust him to sort our problems.

He is the One before whom we will be summoned (for the reckoning)." Who knows better than GOD? All His words are measured and true if we only seek more knowledge by persevering.
His word is the absolute truth. All sovereignty belongs to Him ... Knower of all secrets and declarations, He is the Most Wise, the Cognizant.
Hope that helps.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mahdi20

Thanks for correcting yourself. To clarify StudyQuran links to an external topical index on IslamiCity which states the part you highlighted in black bold.

The reason I asked you what I did is it seems to me you are making baseless/unevidenced claims. You should make sure the claims you make are correct first.

The part of yours that I have highlighted in red, please provide the evidence for each

which verse says buy female slaves?
what is the Arabic word for "slaves" that you are referring to?
which verse says have sex with slaves?

Peace

which verse says buy female slaves? it doesnt say… i was wrong actually it says to free slaves not buying them
what is the Arabic word for "slaves" that you are referring to? i know non quranic arabic word for slave wasnt ma malakat aymanukum… but was abd for men and something else for women.. but why lexicons and even arabs(2 arabs i asked from them…. One is in sudan and one is iran but born in syria or iraq i think said it means slaves) even as i know ما is an اسم الموصول for non humans…. Like animals or object… من is for humans(actually for عاقل as i learned in hs )Didnt it means that whoever ma malakat aymanukum was…. Thei was like proprety of their guardian/owner/master or
etc? Ok lets just say ma malakat aymanukum not slaves
which verse says have sex with slaves?7029-30 which mma came different from azwaj
Same for 3350…. Mma s arent zawj(a person you are married too)

Mahdi20

Peace Good logic

You said Peace Mahdi20.

What you are asked is simple
Where do you get that MMA= slaves /slave girls from ?
What is the Arabic word for slave/slaves?

You are not reflecting and reading what is said to you.
In that case, implore GOD to help you or part company from your issue and Qoran.

I am not expecting to benefit you with whatever I will say.However I will tell you this
I had issues, but I always trust GOD and I cannot turn back on my heels from GOD just because I have issues . Who would I turn to in that case? I will only turn back to my own devils or others and I will stay utterly confused!

Many here are advising you to stay with the right path. Stay with them if you wish a little more and be patient.
GOD s guidance is the best and only true guidance. We are commanded to submit to the Lord of the universe and trust him to sort our problems.

He is the One before whom we will be summoned (for the reckoning)." Who knows better than GOD? All His words are measured and true if we only seek more knowledge by persevering.
His word is the absolute truth. All sovereignty belongs to Him ... Knower of all secrets and declarations, He is the Most Wise, the Cognizant.
Hope that helps.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Anoushirvan

Peace

what is the Arabic word for "slaves" that you are referring to? i know non quranic arabic word for slave wasnt ma malakat aymanukum… but was abd for men and something else for women.. but why lexicons and even arabs(2 arabs i asked from them…. One is in sudan and one is iran but born in syria or iraq i think said it means slaves) even as i know ما is an اسم الموصول for non humans…. Like animals or object… من is for humans(actually for عاقل as i learned in hs )Didnt it means that whoever ma malakat aymanukum was…. Thei was like proprety of their guardian/owner/master or
etc? Ok lets just say ma malakat aymanukum not slaves

Peace,

irrespective of what MMA might actually means in Qur'an (slave or not slave), the opinion of today's native Arab speakers doesn't matter here.
Native Arab speakers today speak an Arabic that is not the one of Qur'an.
Arabic of Qur'an was a dialect, the Old Hijazi, that is not spoken anymore since 1300 or 1200 years.
Arabic grammar didn't exist at the time of Qur'an, it has been invented nearly 200 years later after Qur'an was written and mostly of the basis of Eastern Arabic dialects (those of Iraq, not the Western dialects like Old Hijazi), so you can find deviations between Qur'an and Arabic grammar (cf. Kees Versteegh, Arabic Language).

MMA was likely an idiomatic expression in the Old Hijazi dialect whose meaning is very obscure for us, and even for the Arab grammarians and Islamic scholars 1200 years ago.
The philological context of its use in Qur'an is hardly sufficient to determine its actual meaning.

A point to ponder is the following Qur'an was written at a time, first half of 7th CE, when the Arabic society was transitioning from oral law to written law. Surah 2 contains verses that mandate contracts to be put in writing, and they are historical witnesses of this transition.

Verse 24.33 could actually be also an historical witness of this transition, seemingly opposing nikah (== written marriage contract), with hard-coded rights and obligations, to union contracted by oath (== oral custom, which might be the actual meaning of ma malakat aymanuhum), with much less committing rights and obligations.

Mahdi20

Peace,

irrespective of what MMA might actually means in Qur'an (slave or not slave), the opinion of today's native Arab speakers doesn't matter here.
Native Arab speakers today speak an Arabic that is not the one of Qur'an.
Arabic of Qur'an was a dialect, the Old Hijazi, that is not spoken anymore since 1300 or 1200 years.
Arabic grammar didn't exist at the time of Qur'an, it has been invented nearly 200 years later after Qur'an was written and mostly of the basis of Eastern Arabic dialects (those of Iraq, not the Western dialects like Old Hijazi), so you can find deviations between Qur'an and Arabic grammar (cf. Kees Versteegh, Arabic Language).

MMA was likely an idiomatic expression in the Old Hijazi dialect whose meaning is very obscure for us, and even for the Arab grammarians and Islamic scholars 1200 years ago.
The philological context of its use in Qur'an is hardly sufficient to determine its actual meaning.

A point to ponder is the following Qur'an was written at a time, first half of 7th CE, when the Arabic society was transitioning from oral law to written law. Surah 2 contains verses that mandate contracts to be put in writing, and they are historical witnesses of this transition.

Verse 24.33 could actually be also an historical witness of this transition, seemingly opposing nikah (== written marriage contract), with hard-coded rights and obligations, to union contracted by oath (== oral custom, which might be the actual meaning of ma malakat aymanuhum), with much less committing rights and obligations.

God bless you anooshiravan(i thought it was a exclusive persian name lol) that was a almost convincing answer….

If we consider ma malakat aymanukum a relationship between man/woman which isnt written…. And is by oath(orally) … it will make sense in almost all of the verse which MMA mentioned in man/woman relationship….

If we consider Quran accepr two relationship that man and woman can have sex with each other

1-nikah(as you said written marriage contract)
2-relation ship which based was based on oath(relationship before revelation of Quran)

It will make sense

For example in 424
If we say muhsinat =a woman which have a husband(ie written contract of marriage with him) or a woman which have a partner based on oath(people cannot have a partner after reveal of quran…. Only oaths which done before revelation of quran are acceptable)
The 424 say you cant have nikah with woman which have husband… but you can make nikah with womans which have their partner based on oath

So this will encourge mans which their woman are theirs because of on relationship based on oath to make nikah with them…..

Same for 425… it can mean if you cant marry a woman you love because his muhsanat(because she mayhe didnt agree to leave her mma partner….. or she was married…. Then do nikah with young women which you have based on oaths….)

Same for 3350… God made lawful for prophey woman which have nikah with them or women which he have relation ship based on oath(before revelation)

Same for 3352…. Prophet cant make nikah with any woman…. But can have nikah with women which he had from oath based relationship…

And as you said 2433… it is a good mentioning… God says make contract marriage with them and give them from your wealth(ie dowry)

And same for 43 …. Then one zawj(woman who you have as marriage contract) or women whom you have based on a oath you made before revalation of quran

And same for 235-6….

They Guard their private parts except from their azwaj(spouses ) and their MMA(woman/man they have based on oaths they made before reveal of quran)

And as things you said about arabic…. i agree… forget eastren arabic… i bet persian influenced arabic so more than arabic influence in persian…..

(I think you guys know sooooo many early hadith books are written by persian people….. all of the writers of 6 major sunni books are iranian…. And as a irani i say that in story telling we do so much of Exaggeration)

Arabic word for electricite is کهرباء … which its originally a persian word
Persian word for electricite is برق which is originally a arabic word rotfl

God bless you peace

Noon_waalqalami

If we consider Quran accepr two relationship that man and woman can have sex with each other

1-nikah(as you said written marriage contract)
2-relation ship which based was based on oath(relationship before revelation of Quran)

It will make sense

peace, it's broader term use context see 15 occurrences

wherewithal/resources
orphans and/or bereaved mothers
contracted doctors, employees, etc.
captives at the time/prior to revelation (males and females), have to deal with them too

matrimonial oath relationship cannot apply consistently

2431 وقل and say للمومنت to those believers (f/p) ...
الا except لبعولتهن to husbands theirs او or ابىهن fathers theirs (f/p) ...
او or نساىهن womenfolk (e.g. female relatives) theirs (f/p)
او or ما what ملكت possess اىمنهن right hands theirs (f/p)

3355 لا not جنح guilt علىهن on them (f/p) فى in ابىهن fathers theirs (f/p)...
ولا and not نساىهن womenfolk theirs (f/p)
ولا and not ما what ملكت possess اىمنهن right hands theirs (f/p)

likewise azwaj/spouses inherit
ما ma ملكت malakat اىمنكم aymanukum do not inherit

412
ولكم and for you (pl.) نصف half ما ma/what ترك left ازوجكم azwajukum/spouses yours (pl.)
ولهن and for them (feminine pl.) الربع the fourth مما mimma/from what تركتم left you (pl.)

Cairo, National Library qaf 47
One of the oldest manuscripts dated 606-652 CE (95.4% probability)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/12/handschrift/73

link to word for word translation https//i.postimg.cc/x17gGqFb/ch4v11-15.jpg

And as you said 2433… it is a good mentioning… God says make contract marriage with them and give them from your wealth(ie dowry)

case is masculine plural see context pertains to males and females; says help them out financially

2433 ولىستعفف and let refrain الذىن the ones لا not ىجدون finding نكحا marriage of حتى until ىغنىهم enriches them الله the god من from فضله bounty his والذىن and the ones ىبتغون pursuing الكتب the writ مما from what ملكت possess اىمنكم right hands yours فكاتبوهم fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.) ان if علمتم know you فىهم in them خىرا best/good of واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) من from مال wealth الله the god الذى the one اتكم brought you ولا and not تكرهوا thou dislike (coerce) ye of فتىتكم fatayatikum/maidens yours على on البغا the sexual matters ان if اردن intends they (f/p) تحصنا fortification of لتبتغوا to thou pursue ye of عرض gain الحىه the life الدنىا the world ومن and who ىكرههن disliked (coerced) them (f/p) فان so indeed الله the god من from بعد after اكرههن dislike (coercion) theirs (f/p) غفور forgiver رحىم merciful

Anoushirvan

case is masculine plural see context pertains to males and females; says help them out financially

2433 ولىستعفف and let refrain الذىن the ones لا not ىجدون finding نكحا marriage of حتى until ىغنىهم enriches them الله the god من from فضله bounty his والذىن and the ones ىبتغون pursuing الكتب the writ مما from what ملكت possess اىمنكم right hands yours فكاتبوهم fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.) ان if علمتم know you فىهم in them خىرا best/good of واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) من from مال wealth الله the god الذى the one اتكم brought you ولا and not تكرهوا thou dislike (coerce) ye of فتىتكم fatayatikum/maidens yours على on البغا the sexual matters ان if اردن intends they (f/p) تحصنا fortification of لتبتغوا to thou pursue ye of عرض gain الحىه the life الدنىا the world ومن and who ىكرههن disliked (coerced) them (f/p) فان so indeed الله the god من from بعد after اكرههن dislike (coercion) theirs (f/p) غفور forgiver رحىم merciful

"fakatibuhum" bears the masculine suffix -hum because of "ma" in "ma malakat aymanukum", not because the persons under "ma malakat aymanukum" can be male or female.
In the context, those persons can only be female.

Other than that I agree that MMA has likely broader sense than marital union based on oath, though it seems to be the majority meaning in Qur'an.

Mahdi20

Peace noonwaqalami…

Yes i didnt say that in all of the 15 times it should mean relationship based on oath… yes i agree this may have different meaning , thanks

Peace GA this translation of 2433 that u provided dont makes sense…. Why God said give them from your money? i mean As your translarion slave will pay X amount of money to free him/herself…. Why God said when you free them give them money? Why he said that when you taked money from them in first place….

U said Why marry at all? Everything based on "relationship before revelation of Quran/Allah"?

This type of relationship cant be done in today lifes…. Verb is past … ملکت

Noon_waalqalami

"fakatibuhum" bears the masculine suffix -hum because of "ma" in "ma malakat aymanukum", not because the persons under "ma malakat aymanukum" can be male or female.
In the context, those persons can only be female.

Other than that I agree that MMA has likely broader sense than marital union based on oath, though it seems to be the majority meaning in Qur'an.

peace, suffix "hum" never means females only

2433 واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) من from مال wealth الله the god الذى the one اتكم brought you (pl.)

424 فاتوهن faatuhunna/so gives ye them (feminine pl.) اجورهن rewards theirs

433 ولكل and to each جعلنا made we of مولى heirs مما from what ترك left الولدن the parents والاقربون and the nearer/relatives being والذىن and the ones عقدت pledge اىمنكم aymanukum/right hands yours فاتوهم faatuhum/so gives ye them (masculine pl.) نصىبهم share theirs ان indeed الله the god كان be على on كل every شى thing شهىدا witness of