Salaat Solved.
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Peace be upon you,
Here are first 11 verses containing solaat to point to what it is-I thinks.
(23) Those who believe with the unseen and they maintain discussion and from what We provided for them they spend.
(243) And maintain the discussion and keep it pure (the advice ) and accept with those who accept.
(245) And seek help with patience and discussions and truly it is very hard except on the humble minded.
(283)And when we took a covenant (from) the children (of) Israel not you shall serve but Allah and to parents (be) good and (to) kindered and (to) orphans and the poor and speak to people good (kindly) and undertake discussions and keep them pure (the advice thereof) then you turned back except a few of you while you are averse.
(2110)And undertake discussions and keep them pure( the advice thereof)and what ever you send forth for yourselves of good you shall find it with Allah certainly Allah of what you do All-Seer.
(2125)And (remember) when we made Trading/commerce (The house for vying with one another for firmness) for mankind and peace/safety and take from standing (of)Abraham the Discusser (1) and we convenanted with Abraham and Ishmael that they purify my house (from idol worship) for those wanting to do good (that is trade with others) and who devote themselves and those who humble the submitting.
(2153) You, those who believed, seek help with the patience and discussions, truly the God (is) with the patient.
(2157) They are those, on whom advice from their Lord and a mercy , and those are the guided.
(2177)(it is) not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the east (or) the west but righteousness (is) he who believes in Allah and the Last Day and the Malaikaat and the Book and the prophets and gives wealth in spite of love for it to the Kinsfolk and the ophans and the needy and the wayfarer and who ask and in the ransom of slaves and undertakes discussions and keeps them pure (the advice thereof) and who fulfil their promise when they promise and who remain patient in adversity and affliction and at the time of peril such are they who have proved true and those (are) they (who are) pious.
(223Be regular to discussions and discuss (giving and taking advice) in a median (way) and observe for Allah devoutly.
(2277) That those who believed and did the righteous deeds, and maintained discussions, and keep pure the advice (thereof) , for them at their Lord (is) their reward, and no fear on them and nor they be sad.
exetra,exetra..........
Salaam
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Peace mz357.
Thanks for sharing such a good understanding. "Discussion" covers both "Oration" and "Process" - and it doesn't cause any conflict with hajj (debate) either, because hajj is about conflicting views (believer V non-believer), and a discussion is about going over similar views, elaborating on the details (believer+believer), so right now we are performing salat on free-minds! Using "discussion" as salat in other verses seems to work as well. And the most prominent strength I see in this understanding is that we now have a clearer meaning for "keep them pure" - i.e. don't just end up going off on a tangent, talking about something else instead, ?keep it real!?. I think this really works. I think this understanding is sufficient, but my only issue is whether 11;114 gives times to do it or not, because it could actually be referring to times during the day, indicating no matter how early or late it is in the day, we need to keep our commitments. But this looks unlikely ? so I am definitely buying ?discussion? as my understanding. Way to go mz!
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Peace.
Using brother Kyle?s first post at
(You?ve already done the first eleven verses, going on from there?)
(339) So the controlled called him while he maintained discussion in the sanctuary "Truly The God announces good new to you with John confirming with a word from the God and a master and restricting himself (chaste), and a prophet from the righteous people."
No problem.
(443) You, you those who believed, do not approach the discussion and you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying, and nor distant from God/impure , except crossing a path, until you wash yourselves with water , and if you were sick/diseased or on a long distance travel, or any of you came from the toilet or you touched repeatedly the women, so you did not find water, so wipe your hands and face with dust , pure/good dust, so wipe with your faces and your hands, truly The God is often pardoning, forgiving.
No problem.
(477) Did you not see to those who were said to them, "Prevent/stop your hands and maintain the discussions, and bring forth the purification." So when the fighting was written on them, then a group from them fear the people, as the God's fear, or stronger fear, and they said, "Our Lord, for what (did) You write/decree on us the fighting, if only You delayed us to (a) near term." Say, "The present world's enjoyment (is) little, and the end (is) best to who feared and obeyed, and you do (will) not be caused injustice (as little as) a cleft in a seed."
Discussion does bring forth purification as we experience here at free-minds!
(4101) And if you moved in the land, so offense/guilt is not on you that you shorten/reduce from the discussion if you feared that those who disbelieved betray/torture you, truly the disbelievers are to you an evident enemy.
Discussion in a war situation may involve getting together and discussing in a group, which will attract the attention of the enemy, so if you shorten from the discussion, you may choose other ways to discuss, in smaller groups perhaps. No problem.
(4102) And if you were in them, so you started for them the discussion, so a group from them should maintain with you, and they should take their weapons/arms, so if they submitted, so they be from behind you, and another group should come (that) they did not discuss, so they discuss with you, and they should take their caution, and their weapons/arms; those who disbelieved, wished if you ignore/neglect your weapons/arms, and your goods, so they lean on you one bend, and no offense/guilt (is) on you if mild harm was with you from rain or you were sick/diseased, that you lay your weapons/arms, and take your caution, truly The God prepared to the disbelievers a humiliating torture.
Muhammad starting off discussion. FITS PERFECTLY IN THIS PORTION OF VERSE! In warfare, the discussions take place in smaller groups, so that it can be done in whispers, to avoid attracting attention of the enemy. Perfect advice. Make the chairperson repeat the discussion to small groups instead of speaking loudly to a large group. No problem!
(4103) So if you accomplished the discussion, so remember The God standing, and sitting, and on your sides, so if you became secured, so maintain the discussion, truly the discussion is on the believers a timed book.
This verse shows that discussion has nothing to do with physical position, because they are considered separately after the discussion is done. The discussion is to do with the message of the Quran, so the discussion is a timed book. Timed because the times are given. No problem.
(4142) Truly the hypocrites deceive The God, and He is deceiving them, and if they maintained the discussion, they maintained lazily, they pretend/show off (to) the people, and they do not remember The God except a little.
Maintaining a discussion lazily could involve purposefully going off on a tangent (not keeping it pure), so it looks like they are discussing the timed Quran, but they are not really, because they only want to show off. No problem.
(4162) But the affirmed in the knowledge from them, and the believers, they believe with what was descended to you, and what was descended from before you, and the maintaining (of) the discussion, and the bringing forth (of) the purification , and the believing with The God, and the End Day, those, We will bring them a great reward.
No problem.
(56) You, those who believed, if you approached towards the discussion, so wash your faces and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles, and if you were unclean, so be cleaned, and if you were sick or on (a) journey, or one of you came from the toilet, or you touched and felt repeatedly the women, so you did not find water, wipe your hands and face with good dust, so rub/wipe your faces and your hands from it, The God does not want to put on you strain, and but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessing on you, perhaps you be grateful.
Wetting the extremities of the limbs, natural alternative to downing some coffee or Red Bull. Gets you refreshed and focussed. Possibly because it cools the blood flowing through the whole body, which increases metabolism to warm up, which gets you going. (One possibl#e understanding that I have come up with)
(512) And The God had taken Israel's male children?s promise, and We sent from them twelve chiefs, and The God said, "I am with you, if you maintain the discussion, and you brought forth the purification, and you believed with My messengers and you supported/aided them, and you lent The God a good loan, I will substitute from you your sins and I will enter you (in) gardens, the rivers flow from beneath it, so who disbelieved after that, from you, so (he) had misguided the path."
No problem.
(555) Truly your guardians (are) The God, and His messenger; and those who believed. They maintain the discussion, and they bring forth the purification, and they are accepting.
I have translated the last word as accepting as you have, but I don?t know if this is possible, if it is possible, then there is no problem.
(55 And if you called to the discussion, they took it mockingly and (as) amusement, they truly are a people (that) do not comprehend.
Calling to the discussion is asking them only to be the audience, where they found what was being said as amusement. If they were being called to hajj (debate), they would not find it as amusement, because they would be forcing their own way through. Here God is telling us what would happen if we invite disbelievers to the discussion. No problem.
(591) Truly the satan wants that he makes the animosity and the intense hatred fall between you, in (through use of) the intoxicants and the gambling, and he prevents you from The God's remembrance, and from the discussion, so are you stopping?
No problem.
(5106) You, those who believed, testimony between you if the death attended any of you (at the) time of the bequest, (bring) two of justice from you or two others from other than you, if you, you moved in the Earth, so the death's disaster struck you , you withhold them from after the discussion, so they swear with The God, ? If you become doubtful we do not buy volunteer (ourselves) with it a price, and even if (he or she was) of the relations/near, and we do not hide The God's witness , truly we are then from the sinners."
Discussing using the timed book in relation to the verses considering finance. No problem.
(672) And that maintained the discussion and fear and obey Him, and He is who to Him you are being gathered.
No problem.
(692) And that (is) a book , We descended it blessed, confirming what (is) between his hands, and to warn (the) mother of cities and who (is) around it, and those who believe with the end , they believe with it, and they are, on their discussion, observing.
No problem.
(6162) Say "Truly my discussion and my methods, and my life, and my death, (is) to the creations Lord."
In just the way life and death are connected, discussion and methods are also connected, because the nature of the methods (way to live) are the end result of discussion, and death is th end result of life. No problem.
(7170) And those who hold fast with The Book , and maintain the discussion, truly We do not waste the reformers reward.
Discussion leads to reform, as we see here at free-minds. No problem.
(83) Those who maintain the discussion and from what We provided for them they spend.
No problem.
(835) And their discussion at the House was not except whistling and clapping, so experience the torture with what you were disbelieving.
Exacly what God dislikes. He tells us to keep it pure, (don?t go of on a tangent), but the disbelievers just clap and whistle at what people say as a pose to stating something constructive and of value to the discussion. No problem.
(95) So if the restricted months passed, so fight the partner takers where you found them, and take them and restrict them and be concerned and prepared for them (in) every lookout, so if they repented, and maintained the discussion and brought forth the purification, so free their path, Truly The God (is) forgiving, merciful.
It says in 4103 that ?the discussion is on the believers a timed book. But in this case it is disbelievers discussing so they may be discussing righteousness in general, and bringing forth their own purification as a result. For them the discussion doesn?t have to be in relation to the timed book. No problem.
(911) So if they repented and maintained the discussion and brought forth the purification, so (they are) your brothers in the system, and We explain the signs to a people knowing.
No problem.
(91 Truly give life to the God's places of submitting (those) who believed with The God and the End Day, and maintained the discussion, and brought forth the purification and did not fear except The God, so perhaps that those they be from the guided.
No problem.
(954) And nothing prevented them that their expenditures be accepted from them, except that they disbelieved with The God, and with His messenger and they do not come (to) the discussion except while they are lazy, and they do not spend except while they are reluctant.
Again, being lazy and going off on a tangent, not really having the will to discuss with the timed book. No problem.
(971) And the believers (Male) and believers (Female) some of them (are) guardians (to) some, they order with the generosity , and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders ,and they maintain the discussion, and they bring forth the purification and they obey The God and His messenger, those, The God will have mercy upon them, truly The God (is) mighty , wise.
Possibly indicates that men and women can discuss together. No problem.
(999) And from the Arabs who believes with The God and the End Day, and takes what he spends (as) approachment to The God, and the messenger's discussion. Is it not an approachment to The God for them? The God will make them enter in His mercy, truly The God (is) forgiving, merciful.
No problem.
(9103) Take, from their wealths, charity, to cleanse them , and to purify them with it, and discuss upon them, truly your discussion (is) tranquillity/security for them, and The God (is) hearing, knowledgeable.
No problem.
(1087) And We inspired to Musa and his brother that you provide to your people with Egypt, houses, and make your houses focal points, and maintain the discussion, and announce good news (to) the believers.
Instead of a ?masjid?, they used their homes to focus their discussions. No problem.
(1187) They said "You Shu'aib, does your discussion order you that we discard what our fathers served, or that we do with our possessions what we want, truly you are the clement , the correctly guided."
Discussion purifies, so it is the discussion that orders rejecting what theuir fathers served. No problem.
(11114) And maintain the discussion at (the) edges (of) the day, parts from the night; truly the goodnesses eliminate the sins, a reminder to the rememberers.
God obviously knows that people go to work during the day, and stay awake for some of the night, usually, near sunset and sunrise, so it is advised that discussion takes place around about these times, not specifically at two times, once in the morning and once at night. No problem.
(1431) Say to My servants, those who believed, "They (should) maintain the discussion and spend from what We provided for them secretly and publicly from before that a day comes, (where there is) no trading in it and nor differences in opinions/friendships.
No problem.
(1437) "Our Lord, truly I resided, from my descendants, at a valley of no plants/crops at Your restricted House. Our Lord to maintain the discussion, so make hearts from the people fall to them, and provide for them, from the fruits, perhaps they be grateful."
No problem inserting ?discussion here, but I don?t really understand how the verse has been translated.
(1440) "My Lord make me one who maintains the discussion, and from my descendants, our Lord, and accept my call/prayer."
Makes clear that discussion/salaat is not prayer, rather it is a process. No problem.
(177 Maintain the discussion of the sun's subbing until the night's darkness, and the dawn's reading, truly the dawn's reading is being witnessed.
Again, good advice as to when to do the discussion, if not at these times, then other times will do. Although reading the Quran at dawn is speacial, because God says reinforces the fact that is being witnessed. So people read verses at dawn, that they may discuss at other times each day! No problem!
(17110) Say, "Call The God, or call The Merciful, whichever you call, so for Him (are) the most beautiful names, and do not publicize/declare/raise (voice) with your discussion, and do not silence/lower and hide with it, and desire between that a path."
Perfect advice on how to engage in discussion. No problem.
(1931) "And He made me blessed, wherever I am, and He directed me with the discussion and the purification as long as I stayed alive."
So Jesus discussed things with his mother. And the fact that she is blessed wherever she is (near him or far from him), is because the discussion has a purifying effect on methods, as I said earlier. No problem.
(1955) And (he) was ordering his people with the discussion and the purification, and (he) was, at his Lord, accepted/approved.
No problem.
(1959) So succeeded from after them a succession, they lost the discussion, and they followed the lusts/desires, so they will meet failure .
Losing the discussion, going off on a tangent, or gathering to discuss something different altogether. No problem.
(2014) Truly I am The God, no god except Me, so serve Me, and maintain the discussion for My remembrance.
No problem.
(20132) And order your people with the discussion and endure patience on it, We do not ask you (for) a provision/means of livelihood, We provide for you, and the end (result is) to the fear and obedience (of God).
No problem.
(2173) And We made them leaders/examples guiding with Our order, and We inspired to them to do good, and maintain the discussion, and bring forth the purification, and they were to Us serving.
No problem.
(2235) Those whom if The God was mentioned their hearts became afraid, and the patient on what struck them (are patient through all trials), and maintain the discussion, and from what We provided for them they spend.
No problem.
(2240) Those who were driven out from their places without (a) right/justice except that they say "Our Lord (is) The God." And were it not for The God's pushing the people, some of them with some, elevated and secluded monasteries, and temples, and discussions, and places of submitting, The God?s name is remembered in it much, would have been demolished/torn down, and The God will give victory/aid (to) who gives Him victory/aid, that truly God (is) strong, glorious/mighty.
No problem.
(2241) Those who if We highly positioned/strengthened them in the Earth, they maintained the discussion, and brought forth the purification, and they ordered with the kindness, and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and to The God (are) the matters'/affairs' end.
No problem.
(227) And struggle in the Gods true struggle, He chose you, and He did not make on you in the system from strain/hardship, your father Abraham's system, He identified you the submitters from before, and in this. The Messenger to be a witness on you, and you be witnesses on the people, so maintain the discussion, and bring forth the purification, and hold fast with The God, He is your ally, so excellent (is) the ally , and excellent (is) the helper.
No problem.
(232) Those who in their discussion they are humble.
No problem.
(239) And those whom, they are on their discussions, guarding.
Guarding the content of the discussions, acting as chair? No problem!
(2437) Men, trade nor selling does not distract them from remembering The God, and maintaining the discussion and bringing forth the purification, they fear a time the hearts and the eye sight turns around in it.
No problem.
(2441) Do you see that The God, glorifies for Him whom (is) in the skies and the earth, and birds (with) expanded and motionless wings in a row? Each had known its discussion and its glorification, and The God (is) knowledgeable with what they do.
Even ants have their own language, why not birds? Dolphins even communicate non verbally. No problem!
(2456) And maintain the discussion, and bring forth the purification, and obey the messenger, perhaps you attain mercy
No problem.
(245) You, those who believed, those who your rights control, and those who did not reach the puberty from you should ask for your permission three times, from before the dawn's discussion, and when you put your clothes/garments (on) from the appearing, and from after the dusk discussion, three private times for you, a sin is not on you, and nor on them after them (the three times) circling/walking around on you, some of you to some, like that The God clarifies for you the signs, and The God (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious
Three times advised for discussion. No problem. And young children should be let in the discussion with permission, so that the immature ones do not disrupt the discussion.
(273) Those who maintain the discussion and bring forth the purification, and they are with the end, certain.
No problem.
(2945) Read/recite what was inspired to you from The Book, and maintain the discussion, truly the discussion prevent from the atrocious deeds and the defiance of The God and His orders, and The God's remembrance (is) greater , and The God knows what you perform/produce.
No problem.
(3031) Returning to The God, repenting, and fear and obey Him, and maintain the discussion, and do not be from the takers of partners.
No problem.
(314) Those who maintain the discussion and bring forth the purification, and they are with the end, certain.
No problem.
(3117) You my son, maintain the discussion, and order with the kindness, and forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and be patient on what struck you, truly (is) from the matter's determination."
No problem.
(3333) And dwell/ in your houses, and do not show your decoration, (like) the ignorance's showing off (of) decoration, and maintain the discussion, and bring forth the purification, and obey The God and His messenger, truly The God wants to eliminate from you the filth, people (of) the House, and He cleanses you clean.
No problem.
(3343) He is who discusses on you, and His controllers, to bring you out from the darknesses to the light, and He is, with the believing, merciful.
God knows about us all, and in just the same way he talked to the angels when he said he will create a Adam, he is currently discussing what we are doing as well. Reuters news agency direct! No problem!
(3356) Truly The God and His controllers discuss on the prophet. You, those who believed, discussion on him and submit peacefully
God discusses on him as he does on us in 3343. Muhmmad tells us things under Gods order in the Quran, so we can discuss him in that way. No problem.
(351) And no sinner bears another's burden, and if she calls (a) burdened (self) to (remove) her load, nothing from it (will) be carried, and even if it is of relations, truly you warn those who fear their Lord with the unseen and they maintain the discussion, and who purifies, so truly he purifies to his soul, and to The God (is) the end.
No problem.
(3529) Truly those who read/recite The God's Book and maintain the discussion, and they spent from what We provided for them secretly and openly/publicly, they hope (a) trade it will never fail.
Discussion comes after reading the Quran. So we read it at dawn, and discuss after that. No problem.
(423) And those who replied to their Lord and they maintained the discussion, and their affair (is by) consultation between them, and from what We provided for them, they spend.
Consultation involves searching for a solution for a problem. Discussion involves sharing of knowledge to improve and increase understanding and methods. There is a difference. No problem.
(5813) Have you (been) cautious/guarding against that you advance between your confidential talk's, charities, so if you do not do, and The God forgave on you, so maintain the discussion, and bring forth the purification, and obey The God and His messenger, and The God (is) expert with what you do.
No problem.
(629) You, those who believed, if (it) was called to the discussion from the time of assembly, so hasten to The God's remembrance, and leave the selling/trading, that (is) best for you, if you were knowing
he doesn?t metion keeping it pure this time, becuae he gives equivalence to selling/trade. Naturally when discussions are made in large gatherings they aree for a longer while than normal, so people are advised not to worry about losing time to trade. No problem.
(6210) So if the discussion is accomplished, so spread out in the Earth, and desire from The God's grace, and remember The God much, maybe you succeed.
Further reassurance so that people do not worry about losing trade time in discussion. This does not have to be Friday. No problem.
(7022) Except the discussers
No problem.
(7023) Those who, on their discussion, are continuing.
Debate usually ends out of lack of commitment, but discussion if kept pure does not, because the timed book is of infinite knowledge. No problem.
(7034) And those who, they are on their discussion, protecting
No problem. Protecting themselves from losing purity in the discussion. And protecting their methods from corruption. No problem.
(7320) Truly your Lord knows that you maintain nearly from two-thirds (of) the night and its half, and its third, and a group of people from those with you, and The God evaluates the night and the daytime, He knew that you (will) not count/compute it so He forgave on you, so read what is easy from the reading. He knew that sick/diseased will be from you, and others moving in the Earth desiring from The God's grace, and others fighting in The God's path, so read what is easy from it, and maintain the discussion, and bring forth the purification, and lend The God a good loan, and what you advance for yourselves from goodness you find it at The God, it is better and greater (in) a reward, and ask The God for forgiveness, truly The God (is) forgiving, merciful
?Maintaining nearly? may be an intermediate level of consciousness, as in REM and SEM sleep. Different intensities of sleep. Perhaps psychology could explain what we are thinking while we sleep. Still no problem for discussion.
(7443) They said, ?we were not from the discussers?
No problem.
(7531) So he did not give charity nor did he discuss.
No problem.
(985) And they were not ordered except to serve The God, (be) those devoted to Him (in) the unified system, and maintain the discussion, and bring forth the purification, and that (is) the maintained system.
No problem.
(1074) So regret to the discussers
No problem.
(1075) Those who are inattentive to their discussion.
No problem.
I think ?discussion? definitely works mz357!.
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Salaams natu,
we all have our points of view,but i think we must look around at the societies which are successfull as no doubt they must be following something to this effect(salaat).As the muslims where very successfull at the begining during and right after the prophet and i think its one of the God given tools to wealth , and peace and security.Salaams.
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So we may conclude the following criteria for discussions
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Discussions must be kept pure ? keep them to the point, no going off on a tangent.
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We must seek God?s help when performing the discussions
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We must participate in the discussions regularly
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We must not be too assertive nor too timid in discussions
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Do not participate in the discussion if you are intoxicated
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If you attend discussions, wash the face and the hands to the elbows, and wipe the head and the feet to the ankles. Not necessarily before the discussion, possibly during it, to refresh yourself, to have the effect of caffeine boost.
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If water is not available for whatever reason, then wipe the face and hands with clean soil instead.
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During times of risk of attack from disbelievers, the length of discussions may be shortened (Made more concise).
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In times of warfare, weapons may be kept at hand and ready during the discussions, and the discussions may take place in small groups out of the people available, so that large crowds and the sounds they create are not spotted by the enemy.
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Try to remember God after discussions.
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Keep the discussions pure, don?t fall of the topic in over use of the social practices of whistling and clapping for encouragement.
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Men and women may participate in discussions together.
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Maintain the discussions at least for some time before sunrise and after sunset.
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Read the reminder at dawn, to have fresh material in mind for the discussions to take place during the day.
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The purpose of the discussion is to remember God.
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Be patient during discussions.
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Pay attention during discussions.
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Salaam Natu
I think some major problems stand out about discussion meaning. The best way to spread a religion is performing orations, why would Allah order His prophet to hold such discussions when he can recite His words in front of people?
But some in some ayats it fits perfectly
(3343) He is who discusses (ORATES) on you, and His controllers, to bring you out from the darknesses to the light, and He is, with the believing, merciful.
(3356) Truly The God and His controllers discuss (ORATES) on the prophet. You, those who believed, discussion on him and submit peacefully.
I couldn't figure out what is meant by the second salaat. (COMMIT MAYBE? BROTHER WAKAS HOW DO YOU TRANSLATE SALLI ALA?)
(2441) Do you see that The God, glorifies for Him whom (is) in the skies and the earth, and birds (with) expanded and motionless wings in a row? Each had known its discussion and its glorification, and The God (is) knowledgeable with what they do.
Whereas sometimes commitment is more reasonable
(3117) You my son, maintain the COMMITMENT, and order with the kindness, and forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and be patient on what struck you, truly (is) from the matter's determination."
(3529) Truly those who read/recite The God's Book and maintain the COMMITMENT, and they spent from what We provided for them secretly and openly/publicly, they hope (a) trade it will never fail.
(3031) Returning to The God, repenting, and fear and obey Him, and maintain the COMMITMENT, and do not be from the takers of partners.
Setting up a partner is the opposite of being committed to the Reading.
(2945) Read/recite what was inspired to you from The Book, and maintain the COMMITMENT, truly the COMMITMENT prevent from the atrocious deeds and the defiance of The God and His orders, and The God's remembrance (is) greater, and The God knows what you perform/produce.
I don't think discussion is enough to prevent from bad deeds but commitment is.
(232) Those who in their discussion (COMMITMENT) they are humble.
How to be humble in a discussion?
(2241) Those who if We highly positioned/strengthened them in the Earth, they maintained the COMMITMENT, and brought forth the purification, and they ordered with the kindness, and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and to The God (are) the matters'/affairs' end.
Committing and bringing forth purification <> Forbiding from the defiance of the God and His orders?
(2173) And We made them leaders/examples guiding with Our order, and We inspired to them to do good, and maintain the discussion COMMITMENT, and bring forth the purification, and they were to Us serving.
Nothing is physical in this verse why discussion would be?
(971) And the believers (Male) and believers (Female) some of them (are) guardians (to) some, they order with the generosity , and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders ,and they maintain the COMMITMENT, and they bring forth the purification and they obey The God and His messenger, those, The God will have mercy upon them, truly The God (is) mighty , wise.
(835) And their COMMITMENT NEAR the SYSTEM (SINCE THEY HEAR IT) was not except whistling and clapping, so experience the torture with what you were disbelieving.
imo this verse talks about some unbelievers trying to suppress the oration of the prophet so they resorted to whistling and clapping.
4126 And those who disbelieve say Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.
(7170) And those who hold fast with The Book , and maintain the COMMITMENT, truly We do not waste the reformers reward.
When salaat precedes purification I consider it as a non-physical thing (COMMITMENT) except for a few verses. I opt for oration meaning in other circumstances. I dunno it just sounds the most reasonable way to promote a religion.
Peace...
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Salaams natu,
we all have our points of view,but i think we must look around at the societies which are successfull as no doubt they must be following something to this effect(salaat).As the muslims where very successfull at the begining during and right after the prophet and i think its one of the God given tools to wealth , and peace and security.Salaams.
Peace.
Too true mz. This is how God wanted us to make use of the reminder. I am so glad you came up with this mz, I've been dying to get this saalat issue out of the way, so I can move up to higher study and learn arabic so I can make half decent contributions to "THE THREAD" myself. I finally have a specific position to work on. Its a pity that thread is stalling becuase we can't get enough people who support physically orientated salat to go in. But patience is a virtue. God willing it will progress.
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Peace.
(All quotes are from Born Again?s post)
I think some major problems stands out about discussion meaning. The best way to spread a religion is performing orations, why would Allah order His prophet to hold such discussions when he can recite His words in front of people?
The purpose of ?salat? is remembrance, not to call people to the reminder. The best way to invite people depends on the frame of mind of the audience anyway.
(3356) Truly The God and His controllers discuss (ORATES) on the prophet. You, those who believed, discussion on him and submit peacefully.
I couldn't figure out what is meant by the second salaat. (COMMIT MAYBE? BROTHER WAKAS HOW DO YOU TRANSLATE SALLI ALA?)
Basically, I think discussing him mean discussing what he said, and that was the Quran. Lets see what bro Wakas tells us.
(835) And their discussion at the House was not except whistling and clapping, so experience the torture with what you were disbelieving.
Though I'm not sure what salaat and House is here, imo it talks about some unbelievers trying to suppress the oration of the prophet so they resorted to whistling and clapping.
I am not sure what the house is here, but whether it is a physical place or mental, it does not give definition to salat, so I?m not worrying about that. It is clear that God is telling us that their discussion was nothing but whistling and clapping. These are both customs which play throughout the world during public discussions. God is in fact telling us here to keep it real (keep it pure), and avoid just getting emotional over what people say and do not cause unnecessary noise. To me it makes it clear that salat is being defined as discussion here, since clapping and whistling are not religious rituals as far as I know, they are always to do with public discussions, where people agree.
Whereas sometimes commitment is more reasonable
(3117) You my son, maintain the COMMITMENT, and order with the kindness, and forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and be patient on what struck you, truly (is) from the matter's determination."
(3529) Truly those who read/recite The God's Book and maintain the COMMITMENT, and they spent from what We provided for them secretly and openly/publicly, they hope (a) trade it will never fail.
(3031) Returning to The God, repenting, and fear and obey Him, and maintain the COMMITMENT, and do not be from the takers of partners.
3137 is talking about four different things, maintaining the salat, ordering with kindness, forbidding defiance, and being patient. This doesn?t mean that salat involves the other three things. Even if they are describing one thing, discussions do indirectly prevent defiance of God, because they increase faith. I think its works here as well. And I still think ?discussion? works perfectly well in both 3529 and 3031, it can successfully be translated using discussion, and it makes sense, so why not?
Setting up a partner is the opposite of being committed to the Reading.
(2945) Read/recite what was inspired to you from The Book, and maintain the COMMITMENT, truly the COMMITMENT prevent from the atrocious deeds and the defiance of The God and His orders, and The God's remembrance (is) greater, and The God knows what you perform/produce.
I don't think discussion is enough to prevent from bad deeds but commitment is.
During dawn, the Quran is recited, and after that discussions occur, and that is the order they are listed in this verse. I think discussion works better here than commitments. And the discussion increases remembrance of God, so it prevents atrocious deeds, and because of the reading at dawn and subsequent discussion, we are more aware of his orders and tend to keep to them. Discussion indirectly leads to increased commitment to God?s orders, by increasing the remembrance of God, you tend to think about what is said in those discussions throughout the day, so it does prevent bad deeds.
(232) Those who in their discussion (COMMITMENT) they are humble.
How to be humble in a discussion?
By not being arrogant or over-assertive. wink God tells us to ask for his help in salat. So discussion definitely works here I think.
(2241) Those who if We highly positioned/strengthened them in the Earth, they maintained the COMMITMENT, and brought forth the purification, and they ordered with the kindness, and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and to The God (are) the matters'/affairs' end.
Committing and bringing forth purification <> Forbiding from the defiance of the God and His orders?
Discussing God increases consciousness of God?s prsence, asI personally experience by discussing thi9ngs here on free-minds, and this leads to purifications, and people who do this become better people, they order weith kindness, and because of their increased awareness of God throughout the day, they forbid the defiance of? I still think it works here perfectly, no worries.
(2173) And We made them leaders/examples guiding with Our order, and We inspired to them to do good, and maintain the discussion COMMITMENT, and bring forth the purification, and they were to Us serving.
Nothing is physical in this verse why discussion would be?
Why does it have contain anything physical? I didn?t understand. The verses that say something like ?standing for salat? may just be referring to the chairperson, stood at the front leading the discussion. It doesn?t have to be a requirment to make it salat, I don?t think.
(971) And the believers (Male) and believers (Female) some of them (are) guardians (to) some, they order with the generosity , and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders ,and they maintain the COMMITMENT, and they bring forth the purification and they obey The God and His messenger, those, The God will have mercy upon them, truly The God (is) mighty , wise.
(7170) And those who hold fast with The Book , and maintain the COMMITMENT, truly We do not waste the reformers reward.
When salaat precedes purification I consider it as a non-physical thing (COMMITMENT) except for a few verses. I opt for oration meaning in other circumstances. I dunno it just sounds the most reasonable way to promote a religion.
Where does it say in the Quran that the purpose of salat is to promote a religion? The purpose is remembrance. The purpose of ?hajj? is to promote religion, not salat. So when salat precedes keeping it pure, I understand it clearly to mean keeping the discussion pure, for example not going off on a tangent, or talking about something relatively irrelevant as a pose to something that is directly important to the situation, such as discussing verses on warfare during times of war, and not going off to talk about the number of Muhammad?s wives or something like that.
Peace.
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Salaam brother Natu
The purpose of ?hajj? is to promote religion, not salat.
So what is the difference between them if they are both discussions? Besides salaat doesn't have a "discussion" meaning according to PRL.
I am not sure what the house is here, but whether it is a physical place or mental, it does not give definition to salat, so I?m not worrying about that. It is clear that God is telling us that their discussion was nothing but whistling and clapping.
I edited my post now it makes perfect sense.
(835) And their COMMITMENT NEAR the SYSTEM (SINCE THEY HEAR IT) was not except whistling and clapping, so experience the torture with what you were disbelieving.
imo this verse talks about some unbelievers trying to suppress the oration of the prophet so they resorted to whistling and clapping.
4126 And those who disbelieve say Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.
Peace...
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Peace.
So what is the difference between them if they are both discussions? Besides salaat doesn't have a "discussion" meaning according to PRL.
Discussions are sharing of views on an agreed base, elaboration on details, ?hajj? on the other hand is a debate, a confrontation of opposing views. So salat is between believers, and hajj is between believers and disbelievers. In just the same way brother wakes came to the conclusion that bayt means establishment, using ?Oration? and ?Process? we can come to ?discussion?. Although ?discussion? is not there, ad combination of the available meaning can give us this. So I would say that in just the same way bayt can be understood as establishment, salat can be understood as discussion.
imo this verse talks about some unbelievers trying to suppress the oration of the prophet so they resorted to whistling and clapping.
Though it can still mean that they were trying to suppress his discussion which involved oration of the Quran.
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Salaams all,
I think
911
If they repent, and they hold the discussion and keep it pure (the advice agreed to therof/or the committments made ), then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.in this ayah this i believe is the right way of looking at it.
Due to the there being two languages English and Arabic - you must find a balance. Salaams.
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Peace be upon you all,
I disagree with salaat being "discussion" in the context that it is being used. Yes, it is a discussion, but it is a discussion with the God through the PROCESS(salaat). What is being dealt with is the AGE OLD/CROSS CULTURAL concept of meditation.
Meditation is the MERGING of the conscious and subconcious(nafs) in order to "talk to God" and make changes in your subconcious(nafs). It is a process that requires patience.
The House(bayt) is that place one gets to while in meditation that gives one complete securiety. The natural state of peace.
Anyway, the concept of "hajja" deals with the "discussions" which are referred to as "debates" (hajja) as oppossed to arguing(jidala).
The God says "there shaould be no arguing(jidala) in the debate(hajja), this clearly deals with the topic of verbal reasoning. Therefore salaat does not explain that again, rather it is explaining WHERE this knowledge comes from with which we can debate. That is the PROCESS(salaat).
Lastly, "Al Salaat Al Wusta" indicates to us that the process(salaat) is what balances us, we must not be too far into the conscious of daytime or the subconscious of nighttime, but the MIDDLE state, or the MEDI- State.
Please refer to an article I wrote a while back in the thread "The Human and the Process or rememberance" and look at the section dealing with RECEPTIVITY (alpha/beta brain waves, etc).
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Peace be upon you ,
I forgot o mention that Zachariah was alone in his chamber maintaining the process(salaat) - of meditation.
So it statnds that he was not discussiong with another human. The process is to call on the God(dua) then meditate to recieve the answer, the God answers the call of all those who trust in God.
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Peace all,
Discussion and oration are both methods of "salat". Both of those methods are ways of LEARNING. Discussions can happen at anytime but people can endlessly discuss things and get stuck on the same points. There is a need to go back and reflect during special times so that one can bring new ideas into the discussions.
The concept of "salat" is one of a learning connection. Discussions and oration are simply learning methods that interact and complement each other. This is why in many instances in the great reading we see that "salat" is hapenning in a group discussion with moderate voice (17106-111), while at other times it is done alone (for example at dawn in 177. This is natural and is true for any learning process.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman
I think 17110 can't be an example of a group discussion, it's clear that Muhammad was reading the Quran (17106). The only instance for that kind of understanding can be 7320 where reading order is given to everyone.
Peace...
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Salaams idol,
you say
"I forgot o mention that Zachariah was alone in his chamber maintaining the process(salaat) - of meditation. "
and where did it say he was alone??????????
He was holding his assembly man.
Salaams.
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Salaams born free,all,
In this case the salaat is about telling Christians a thing or two look at the context.
17108
Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating, and they Say ?Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.?
And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in thy discussions, or too quite; but seek a path in between.
And Say ?Praise be to God, who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.Here the salaat is about the enemies to make commitments and to hold to them it?s about making agreements.
911
If they repent, and they hold the discussion and keep it pure (the advice agreed to thereof/or the commitments made), then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.Gods Blessings.
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Peace bro idolfree1,
it is a discussion with the God through the PROCESS(salaat). What is being dealt with is the AGE OLD/CROSS CULTURAL concept of meditation.
Fair enough. Why don?t we call it the discussion process then? Problem solved.
Anyway, the concept of "hajja" deals with the "discussions" which are referred to as "debates" (hajja) as oppossed to arguing(jidala).
Here, I believe we are actually talking about three distinctly different words Argument (jidala); debate (hajja); and salat (discussion process).
Argument = Quarel/Dispute = jidala
Debate = To discuss opposing points = hajja
Discussion = Consideration of a subject by a group = salaat
Lastly, "Al Salaat Al Wusta" indicates to us that the process(salaat) is what balances us, we must not be too far into the conscious of daytime or the subconscious of nighttime, but the MIDDLE state, or the MEDI- State.
The balance is describing the arrival of a general consensus, where opinions are balanced amongst the group of discussers.
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Peace bro Ayman,
The concept of "salat" is one of a learning connection. Discussions and oration are simply learning methods that interact and complement each other.
IMO, we cannot categorise salat as a learning connection, rather it is discussion which involves oration of the Quran, so we may call it the ?discussion process? ? this I say because of?
(3356) Truly The God and His controllers discuss on the prophet. You, those who believed, discussion on him and submit peacefully.
So God isn?t learning about the prophet. Although discussion leads to learning, it is not exclusive, the controllers learn from God about the prophet, but God doesn?t learn from the controllers. So I wouldn?t say it has to be a learning connection. Although it could still be said that in this case it is a one way learning process.
This is why in many instances in the great reading we see that "salat" is happening in a group discussion with moderate voice (17106-111), while at other times it is done alone (for example at dawn in 177. This is natural and is true for any learning process.
1778 doesn?t say anywhere that the salat is done alone, although it may involve reading the Quran on your own, and the wording of the verse makes it clear that reading the Quran is not necessarily part of the salat process. My understanding is that God could have ordered us to read the Quran in more strict terms, or even at dusk instead of dawn, but the reason we are told to read it at dawn is because then we have parts of the Quran fresh in out minds to discuss during the discussions of the day. And this reading of the Quran is not made compulsory or part of salat, because all of the people involved in the discussions don?t need to have stimulus material, only a few or just the chairperson may do. God asserts that he witnesses it, because then that person has shown commitment to the discussion by reading and preparing to bean active player in the discussion. This also works to the extent that people don?t start getting big headed and doing their discussions without any real knowledge of the Quran, which would lead to perversion of understandings. I think the understanding of ?discussion? really does give meaning to the suggestion read the Quran at dawn.