Salaat Solved.
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Salaam Natu
I think some major problems stand out about discussion meaning. The best way to spread a religion is performing orations, why would Allah order His prophet to hold such discussions when he can recite His words in front of people?
But some in some ayats it fits perfectly
(3343) He is who discusses (ORATES) on you, and His controllers, to bring you out from the darknesses to the light, and He is, with the believing, merciful.
(3356) Truly The God and His controllers discuss (ORATES) on the prophet. You, those who believed, discussion on him and submit peacefully.
I couldn't figure out what is meant by the second salaat. (COMMIT MAYBE? BROTHER WAKAS HOW DO YOU TRANSLATE SALLI ALA?)
(2441) Do you see that The God, glorifies for Him whom (is) in the skies and the earth, and birds (with) expanded and motionless wings in a row? Each had known its discussion and its glorification, and The God (is) knowledgeable with what they do.
Whereas sometimes commitment is more reasonable
(3117) You my son, maintain the COMMITMENT, and order with the kindness, and forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and be patient on what struck you, truly (is) from the matter's determination."
(3529) Truly those who read/recite The God's Book and maintain the COMMITMENT, and they spent from what We provided for them secretly and openly/publicly, they hope (a) trade it will never fail.
(3031) Returning to The God, repenting, and fear and obey Him, and maintain the COMMITMENT, and do not be from the takers of partners.
Setting up a partner is the opposite of being committed to the Reading.
(2945) Read/recite what was inspired to you from The Book, and maintain the COMMITMENT, truly the COMMITMENT prevent from the atrocious deeds and the defiance of The God and His orders, and The God's remembrance (is) greater, and The God knows what you perform/produce.
I don't think discussion is enough to prevent from bad deeds but commitment is.
(232) Those who in their discussion (COMMITMENT) they are humble.
How to be humble in a discussion?
(2241) Those who if We highly positioned/strengthened them in the Earth, they maintained the COMMITMENT, and brought forth the purification, and they ordered with the kindness, and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and to The God (are) the matters'/affairs' end.
Committing and bringing forth purification <> Forbiding from the defiance of the God and His orders?
(2173) And We made them leaders/examples guiding with Our order, and We inspired to them to do good, and maintain the discussion COMMITMENT, and bring forth the purification, and they were to Us serving.
Nothing is physical in this verse why discussion would be?
(971) And the believers (Male) and believers (Female) some of them (are) guardians (to) some, they order with the generosity , and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders ,and they maintain the COMMITMENT, and they bring forth the purification and they obey The God and His messenger, those, The God will have mercy upon them, truly The God (is) mighty , wise.
(835) And their COMMITMENT NEAR the SYSTEM (SINCE THEY HEAR IT) was not except whistling and clapping, so experience the torture with what you were disbelieving.
imo this verse talks about some unbelievers trying to suppress the oration of the prophet so they resorted to whistling and clapping.
4126 And those who disbelieve say Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.
(7170) And those who hold fast with The Book , and maintain the COMMITMENT, truly We do not waste the reformers reward.
When salaat precedes purification I consider it as a non-physical thing (COMMITMENT) except for a few verses. I opt for oration meaning in other circumstances. I dunno it just sounds the most reasonable way to promote a religion.
Peace...
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Salaams natu,
we all have our points of view,but i think we must look around at the societies which are successfull as no doubt they must be following something to this effect(salaat).As the muslims where very successfull at the begining during and right after the prophet and i think its one of the God given tools to wealth , and peace and security.Salaams.
Peace.
Too true mz. This is how God wanted us to make use of the reminder. I am so glad you came up with this mz, I've been dying to get this saalat issue out of the way, so I can move up to higher study and learn arabic so I can make half decent contributions to "THE THREAD" myself. I finally have a specific position to work on. Its a pity that thread is stalling becuase we can't get enough people who support physically orientated salat to go in. But patience is a virtue. God willing it will progress.
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Peace.
(All quotes are from Born Again?s post)
I think some major problems stands out about discussion meaning. The best way to spread a religion is performing orations, why would Allah order His prophet to hold such discussions when he can recite His words in front of people?
The purpose of ?salat? is remembrance, not to call people to the reminder. The best way to invite people depends on the frame of mind of the audience anyway.
(3356) Truly The God and His controllers discuss (ORATES) on the prophet. You, those who believed, discussion on him and submit peacefully.
I couldn't figure out what is meant by the second salaat. (COMMIT MAYBE? BROTHER WAKAS HOW DO YOU TRANSLATE SALLI ALA?)
Basically, I think discussing him mean discussing what he said, and that was the Quran. Lets see what bro Wakas tells us.
(835) And their discussion at the House was not except whistling and clapping, so experience the torture with what you were disbelieving.
Though I'm not sure what salaat and House is here, imo it talks about some unbelievers trying to suppress the oration of the prophet so they resorted to whistling and clapping.
I am not sure what the house is here, but whether it is a physical place or mental, it does not give definition to salat, so I?m not worrying about that. It is clear that God is telling us that their discussion was nothing but whistling and clapping. These are both customs which play throughout the world during public discussions. God is in fact telling us here to keep it real (keep it pure), and avoid just getting emotional over what people say and do not cause unnecessary noise. To me it makes it clear that salat is being defined as discussion here, since clapping and whistling are not religious rituals as far as I know, they are always to do with public discussions, where people agree.
Whereas sometimes commitment is more reasonable
(3117) You my son, maintain the COMMITMENT, and order with the kindness, and forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and be patient on what struck you, truly (is) from the matter's determination."
(3529) Truly those who read/recite The God's Book and maintain the COMMITMENT, and they spent from what We provided for them secretly and openly/publicly, they hope (a) trade it will never fail.
(3031) Returning to The God, repenting, and fear and obey Him, and maintain the COMMITMENT, and do not be from the takers of partners.
3137 is talking about four different things, maintaining the salat, ordering with kindness, forbidding defiance, and being patient. This doesn?t mean that salat involves the other three things. Even if they are describing one thing, discussions do indirectly prevent defiance of God, because they increase faith. I think its works here as well. And I still think ?discussion? works perfectly well in both 3529 and 3031, it can successfully be translated using discussion, and it makes sense, so why not?
Setting up a partner is the opposite of being committed to the Reading.
(2945) Read/recite what was inspired to you from The Book, and maintain the COMMITMENT, truly the COMMITMENT prevent from the atrocious deeds and the defiance of The God and His orders, and The God's remembrance (is) greater, and The God knows what you perform/produce.
I don't think discussion is enough to prevent from bad deeds but commitment is.
During dawn, the Quran is recited, and after that discussions occur, and that is the order they are listed in this verse. I think discussion works better here than commitments. And the discussion increases remembrance of God, so it prevents atrocious deeds, and because of the reading at dawn and subsequent discussion, we are more aware of his orders and tend to keep to them. Discussion indirectly leads to increased commitment to God?s orders, by increasing the remembrance of God, you tend to think about what is said in those discussions throughout the day, so it does prevent bad deeds.
(232) Those who in their discussion (COMMITMENT) they are humble.
How to be humble in a discussion?
By not being arrogant or over-assertive. wink God tells us to ask for his help in salat. So discussion definitely works here I think.
(2241) Those who if We highly positioned/strengthened them in the Earth, they maintained the COMMITMENT, and brought forth the purification, and they ordered with the kindness, and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders, and to The God (are) the matters'/affairs' end.
Committing and bringing forth purification <> Forbiding from the defiance of the God and His orders?
Discussing God increases consciousness of God?s prsence, asI personally experience by discussing thi9ngs here on free-minds, and this leads to purifications, and people who do this become better people, they order weith kindness, and because of their increased awareness of God throughout the day, they forbid the defiance of? I still think it works here perfectly, no worries.
(2173) And We made them leaders/examples guiding with Our order, and We inspired to them to do good, and maintain the discussion COMMITMENT, and bring forth the purification, and they were to Us serving.
Nothing is physical in this verse why discussion would be?
Why does it have contain anything physical? I didn?t understand. The verses that say something like ?standing for salat? may just be referring to the chairperson, stood at the front leading the discussion. It doesn?t have to be a requirment to make it salat, I don?t think.
(971) And the believers (Male) and believers (Female) some of them (are) guardians (to) some, they order with the generosity , and they forbid from the defiance of The God and His orders ,and they maintain the COMMITMENT, and they bring forth the purification and they obey The God and His messenger, those, The God will have mercy upon them, truly The God (is) mighty , wise.
(7170) And those who hold fast with The Book , and maintain the COMMITMENT, truly We do not waste the reformers reward.
When salaat precedes purification I consider it as a non-physical thing (COMMITMENT) except for a few verses. I opt for oration meaning in other circumstances. I dunno it just sounds the most reasonable way to promote a religion.
Where does it say in the Quran that the purpose of salat is to promote a religion? The purpose is remembrance. The purpose of ?hajj? is to promote religion, not salat. So when salat precedes keeping it pure, I understand it clearly to mean keeping the discussion pure, for example not going off on a tangent, or talking about something relatively irrelevant as a pose to something that is directly important to the situation, such as discussing verses on warfare during times of war, and not going off to talk about the number of Muhammad?s wives or something like that.
Peace.
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Salaam brother Natu
The purpose of ?hajj? is to promote religion, not salat.
So what is the difference between them if they are both discussions? Besides salaat doesn't have a "discussion" meaning according to PRL.
I am not sure what the house is here, but whether it is a physical place or mental, it does not give definition to salat, so I?m not worrying about that. It is clear that God is telling us that their discussion was nothing but whistling and clapping.
I edited my post now it makes perfect sense.
(835) And their COMMITMENT NEAR the SYSTEM (SINCE THEY HEAR IT) was not except whistling and clapping, so experience the torture with what you were disbelieving.
imo this verse talks about some unbelievers trying to suppress the oration of the prophet so they resorted to whistling and clapping.
4126 And those who disbelieve say Do not listen to this Quran and make noise therein, perhaps you may overcome.
Peace...
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Peace.
So what is the difference between them if they are both discussions? Besides salaat doesn't have a "discussion" meaning according to PRL.
Discussions are sharing of views on an agreed base, elaboration on details, ?hajj? on the other hand is a debate, a confrontation of opposing views. So salat is between believers, and hajj is between believers and disbelievers. In just the same way brother wakes came to the conclusion that bayt means establishment, using ?Oration? and ?Process? we can come to ?discussion?. Although ?discussion? is not there, ad combination of the available meaning can give us this. So I would say that in just the same way bayt can be understood as establishment, salat can be understood as discussion.
imo this verse talks about some unbelievers trying to suppress the oration of the prophet so they resorted to whistling and clapping.
Though it can still mean that they were trying to suppress his discussion which involved oration of the Quran.
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Salaams all,
I think
911
If they repent, and they hold the discussion and keep it pure (the advice agreed to therof/or the committments made ), then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.in this ayah this i believe is the right way of looking at it.
Due to the there being two languages English and Arabic - you must find a balance. Salaams.
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Peace be upon you all,
I disagree with salaat being "discussion" in the context that it is being used. Yes, it is a discussion, but it is a discussion with the God through the PROCESS(salaat). What is being dealt with is the AGE OLD/CROSS CULTURAL concept of meditation.
Meditation is the MERGING of the conscious and subconcious(nafs) in order to "talk to God" and make changes in your subconcious(nafs). It is a process that requires patience.
The House(bayt) is that place one gets to while in meditation that gives one complete securiety. The natural state of peace.
Anyway, the concept of "hajja" deals with the "discussions" which are referred to as "debates" (hajja) as oppossed to arguing(jidala).
The God says "there shaould be no arguing(jidala) in the debate(hajja), this clearly deals with the topic of verbal reasoning. Therefore salaat does not explain that again, rather it is explaining WHERE this knowledge comes from with which we can debate. That is the PROCESS(salaat).
Lastly, "Al Salaat Al Wusta" indicates to us that the process(salaat) is what balances us, we must not be too far into the conscious of daytime or the subconscious of nighttime, but the MIDDLE state, or the MEDI- State.
Please refer to an article I wrote a while back in the thread "The Human and the Process or rememberance" and look at the section dealing with RECEPTIVITY (alpha/beta brain waves, etc).
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Peace be upon you ,
I forgot o mention that Zachariah was alone in his chamber maintaining the process(salaat) - of meditation.
So it statnds that he was not discussiong with another human. The process is to call on the God(dua) then meditate to recieve the answer, the God answers the call of all those who trust in God.
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Peace all,
Discussion and oration are both methods of "salat". Both of those methods are ways of LEARNING. Discussions can happen at anytime but people can endlessly discuss things and get stuck on the same points. There is a need to go back and reflect during special times so that one can bring new ideas into the discussions.
The concept of "salat" is one of a learning connection. Discussions and oration are simply learning methods that interact and complement each other. This is why in many instances in the great reading we see that "salat" is hapenning in a group discussion with moderate voice (17106-111), while at other times it is done alone (for example at dawn in 177. This is natural and is true for any learning process.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman
I think 17110 can't be an example of a group discussion, it's clear that Muhammad was reading the Quran (17106). The only instance for that kind of understanding can be 7320 where reading order is given to everyone.
Peace...
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Salaams idol,
you say
"I forgot o mention that Zachariah was alone in his chamber maintaining the process(salaat) - of meditation. "
and where did it say he was alone??????????
He was holding his assembly man.
Salaams.
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Salaams born free,all,
In this case the salaat is about telling Christians a thing or two look at the context.
17108
Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating, and they Say ?Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.?
And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in thy discussions, or too quite; but seek a path in between.
And Say ?Praise be to God, who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.Here the salaat is about the enemies to make commitments and to hold to them it?s about making agreements.
911
If they repent, and they hold the discussion and keep it pure (the advice agreed to thereof/or the commitments made), then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.Gods Blessings.
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Peace bro idolfree1,
it is a discussion with the God through the PROCESS(salaat). What is being dealt with is the AGE OLD/CROSS CULTURAL concept of meditation.
Fair enough. Why don?t we call it the discussion process then? Problem solved.
Anyway, the concept of "hajja" deals with the "discussions" which are referred to as "debates" (hajja) as oppossed to arguing(jidala).
Here, I believe we are actually talking about three distinctly different words Argument (jidala); debate (hajja); and salat (discussion process).
Argument = Quarel/Dispute = jidala
Debate = To discuss opposing points = hajja
Discussion = Consideration of a subject by a group = salaat
Lastly, "Al Salaat Al Wusta" indicates to us that the process(salaat) is what balances us, we must not be too far into the conscious of daytime or the subconscious of nighttime, but the MIDDLE state, or the MEDI- State.
The balance is describing the arrival of a general consensus, where opinions are balanced amongst the group of discussers.
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Peace bro Ayman,
The concept of "salat" is one of a learning connection. Discussions and oration are simply learning methods that interact and complement each other.
IMO, we cannot categorise salat as a learning connection, rather it is discussion which involves oration of the Quran, so we may call it the ?discussion process? ? this I say because of?
(3356) Truly The God and His controllers discuss on the prophet. You, those who believed, discussion on him and submit peacefully.
So God isn?t learning about the prophet. Although discussion leads to learning, it is not exclusive, the controllers learn from God about the prophet, but God doesn?t learn from the controllers. So I wouldn?t say it has to be a learning connection. Although it could still be said that in this case it is a one way learning process.
This is why in many instances in the great reading we see that "salat" is happening in a group discussion with moderate voice (17106-111), while at other times it is done alone (for example at dawn in 177. This is natural and is true for any learning process.
1778 doesn?t say anywhere that the salat is done alone, although it may involve reading the Quran on your own, and the wording of the verse makes it clear that reading the Quran is not necessarily part of the salat process. My understanding is that God could have ordered us to read the Quran in more strict terms, or even at dusk instead of dawn, but the reason we are told to read it at dawn is because then we have parts of the Quran fresh in out minds to discuss during the discussions of the day. And this reading of the Quran is not made compulsory or part of salat, because all of the people involved in the discussions don?t need to have stimulus material, only a few or just the chairperson may do. God asserts that he witnesses it, because then that person has shown commitment to the discussion by reading and preparing to bean active player in the discussion. This also works to the extent that people don?t start getting big headed and doing their discussions without any real knowledge of the Quran, which would lead to perversion of understandings. I think the understanding of ?discussion? really does give meaning to the suggestion read the Quran at dawn.
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Salaams natu,
You are getting a firm view of this topic,surpising me.(3356) Truly The God and His controllers discuss on the prophet. You, those who believed, discussion on him and submit peacefully.
I think in this ayah the word is somewhat different ? Saloona, and seems more like advice
Various salaat ? discussion of a type. But Saloo is somewhat different,to me.
33.56 verily Allah and His Malaikaat bestow advice upon the prophet O you who believe give/bestow your advice/view upon/to him and greet (him) and submit/accept openly.
Keep up the good work.
Salaams
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You are getting a firm view of this topic,surpising me.
Peace mz357.
I absolutely love this it! It works even in the most awkward contexts!
And one other thing I like about this understading is that salat is clearly distinguished from hajj...
Commands to salat are always followed by suggestion to keep them pure (no going off on a tangent or discussing something irrelevant), and not to avoid arguments, becuase in a discussion, like minded people are attempting to understand further, so arguments aren't going to happen anyway.
Commands to hajj are associated with suggestions to avoid arguments, becuase arguments are likely to happen in debates, becuase it involves conflicting views, and attempts to convince either side of a particlar view, so in a debate it is unlikely that people would go off on a tangent, becuase both sides would be trying to convince the other side instead of slacking off. So God naturally found it unneccessary to tell us to keep the debates pure, he just told us to avoid arguments. Perfect advice from the author!
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Although I am understanding what is going on by applying logic only, becuase I do not really know much arabic, I pray that one day I will be able to discuss (salat wink ) these things by talking about the arabic involved, like you guys do! Some day I will God willing! D arrow
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Hi Natu,
Hajj was something for the great masses of peoples done like a once off thingy ? but salaat is and was a continues process but with far fewer people being involved on a daily basis ,which involved/s everyday affairs aswell unlike Hajj which embodied the core issues of the way of the quran? I think.
Salaams.
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Yorite mz!
Good point! With either understanding it works! More flexibility! I think we now have the "salat solution"!!!
We'll see what criticism is left, and once thats through we'll get an article going, going through everty single itsy bitsy detail, get it posted in the articles section, and use that article as a base for discussion in "THE THREAD" - regular updates. So that people new to free minds can see clearly what salat is, coz the hard work has been done for them! And thats it, we may have a solid understanding of salat that no sectarian can even come in sniffing range!
Now I can bet people are gonna come on here and say that we should let people find their way through themselves, and see what is best for themselves, so all I would say is that if the correct definition has been found, why not promote it, instead of letting other promote prostration towards the kaba?
BTW, am I going a bit OTT with the exclamation marks?
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Salaam NATU,
Good stuff,an article for a quick/easy understanding for everybody-i think.
Thanks.