The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)

Iyyaka

peace,

Sorry, but you have contradictory positions.

On the one hand you agree (at Z no more X and Y, ergo, a fast has started at point Z) but then say "the word complete implies that something was starting before ". You already admitted (indirectly) it (a fast) has started, so what's the problem?

Your position makes no sense and is contradictory.

Salam,
Sorry but you will be less confuse if you are concentrated (Let's have a look at my conclusion again) But I can understand that it is not easy because you, as the big majority of muslims, do not undertsand the real difference between sawm and siyam. You canno't be agree with me but at least try to understand my reasoning as you were me

Further explanations

The day can be divided in 2 parts from sunset to dawn (period 1) and from dawn to sunset (period 2).
Agree ? If Yes we can continue
The MAIN subject of the passage (2-183..187) is about SIYAM.
Agree ? If Yes we can continue.

Now, 2 sentences from quran (Each of these sentences corresponds to one of the periods mentioned above)

First sentence "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn." = period 1
2 characteristics

SIYAM ? YES.
SAWM ? NO.

Second sentence ""thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night." = period 2
2 characteristics

SIYAM ? YES.
SAWM ? YES.

This understanding is logical with Allah words (atimmū/complete). In (2-183...187), SAWM (understanding in this particular context as "not eating and drinking&quot must be doing DURING the SIYAM period (24 hours) but not all the day.

Mohammed_

salaam,

But from its(SJD) occurrences in the Qur’an,

I make it "But from its (human SJD) occurrences in the Qur’an,"
Examples, 12100, 17107,109, 1958 etc.

huruf

The definition of siyam in this verse

1926 "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence / sawman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

1910 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

341 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Mary and Zachariah refrained from speaking which makes sense when one is retired.

"It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam".

Does the night include the day as for Zachariah?

The restriction "until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn" concern only to approach your women sexually. That makes sense when one is in retreat in the masjid.

The verse 2185 explains the start of siyam and why it's so important, to magnify God for what He has guided you to.

Concerning Maryam, the event is related to her having the newborn child with her and her being asked about it. So she is advised to say (and that means speaking) that she has vowed to the Rahmaan sawm and therefore that day will not speak to anybody. That continues even when she returns to her people and she does not anser questions about the child, simply points to him. So it is all related to her bein in the situation she was, as a other with newborn or baby, no husband or fathe and it is following devine advise that she does not answer questions because she has vowed thatto the Rahmaan.

Salaam

jkhan

Salam,
Sorry but you will be less confuse if you are concentrated (Let's have a look at my conclusion again) But I can understand that it is not easy because you, as the big majority of muslims, do not undertsand the real difference between sawm and siyam. You canno't be agree with me but at least try to understand my reasoning as you were me

Further explanations

The day can be divided in 2 parts from sunset to dawn (period 1) and from dawn to sunset (period 2).
Agree ? If Yes we can continue
The MAIN subject of the passage (2-183..187) is about SIYAM.
Agree ? If Yes we can continue.

Now, 2 sentences from quran (Each of these sentences corresponds to one of the periods mentioned above)

First sentence "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn." = period 1
2 characteristics

SIYAM ? YES.
SAWM ? NO.

Second sentence ""thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night." = period 2
2 characteristics

SIYAM ? YES.
SAWM ? YES.

This understanding is logical with Allah words (atimmū/complete). In (2-183...187), SAWM (understanding in this particular context as "not eating and drinking&quot must be doing DURING the SIYAM period (24 hours) but not all the day.

Interesting when reading after long time..
But brother Iyyaka in case if you are still around why not explain what is Siyam and Sawm in your understanding...

@waqas.. I wish you respond to this thread of Iyyaka which he directed at you...

Anyway... Siyam in my understanding as of now cannot be leaving food and drink... Sister Hourya makes sense.. But.. I have no capacity to debate this since I have realized only but don't have the concrete proof to substantiate to others...

Thank you...

jkhan

Salam,
Sorry but you will be less confuse if you are concentrated (Let's have a look at my conclusion again) But I can understand that it is not easy because you, as the big majority of muslims, do not undertsand the real difference between sawm and siyam. You canno't be agree with me but at least try to understand my reasoning as you were me

Further explanations

The day can be divided in 2 parts from sunset to dawn (period 1) and from dawn to sunset (period 2).
Agree ? If Yes we can continue
The MAIN subject of the passage (2-183..187) is about SIYAM.
Agree ? If Yes we can continue.

Now, 2 sentences from quran (Each of these sentences corresponds to one of the periods mentioned above)

First sentence "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn." = period 1
2 characteristics

SIYAM ? YES.
SAWM ? NO.

Second sentence ""thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night." = period 2
2 characteristics

SIYAM ? YES.
SAWM ? YES.

This understanding is logical with Allah words (atimmū/complete). In (2-183...187), SAWM (understanding in this particular context as "not eating and drinking&quot must be doing DURING the SIYAM period (24 hours) but not all the day.

I feel something very strong in his statements... Though failed grasp in the first instance..

Reflected day and night..

You know my fellow believers.. God says in 2189 that Hilal is indication for Haj and stress to enter from front door.. It clearly indicate that Haj begins with new moon and 2197 is clear that Haj is not in a single month but more than three further God says four months are Hurm (restricted).. And God continues in chapter 2 what to perform in when one has taken Haj in his life... So from the new moon it goes on and it is several days.. And then when came to completing stage in verse 2203 it is obvious the ending of Haj is in Ayyamin madudath.. So if Ayyamin madudath is end of haj in a month out of four months then what these Ayyamin madudath is in fact.. Ayyamin madudath cannot be new moon... If you read verses 2203 it is very obvious that Ayyamin madudath is three days... So it obvious that Haj in a particular months starting from new moon and ends in full moon... So if ayyamin madudath is full moon and three days in verse 2203 then what is ayyamin madudath when it comes to Siyam in verse 2184.. Yes.. It is full moon and three days...

Note.. One intelligent person could ask.. Is verse number 2185 and 2187 not enough to fast one whole month (lunar) like conventionally fasting... What is the use of verse 2184 at all... Difference is three days only God's instructions...

And it seems like the verse 2187 is speaking eat and drink until Fajr (clear) .. But it is instruction to eat and drink and enjoy sexual relations since it is allowed then Siyam fall at Fajr don't have sex and complete after three days ila Night... So from Fajr of Full moon until full moon dissapear when it rises at night... All these period (three days) are siyam mainly Aakifun (in devotion).. But allpwed is sex at night but still siyam... Having food and drink is part of life and enjoyment and necessity... No restriction for food and drink.. It seems like it was stated so but in depth if you perceive it is not for and drink but it was indication of beginning time of siyam.. So restriction is only to sex throughout siyam except night...

Yes.. Siyam is 24 hours and continuous throughout visible full moon three days.. During which sex is allowed as mercy at night...

May Allah bless us all believers with true guidance.. If we fault May Allah correct us..

Thank you..

jkhan

Salam..

Few are privately asking me and previously also asked me the question...
If Quran orders to fast in Full moon three days, does it mean to fast(siyam) every full moon throughout the year?..

And further asks if not every full moon, then when exactly?...

Very challenging question but answer is and should be within quran if one wants to enhance his or her status to Muththakun.. Remember mere siyam won't make one to muttaqun.. Read 6153 following Quran itself(straight path) makes one to muttaqun (la'allakum thaththakun) ..

Let me describe my understanding..
First of all in my understanding Siyam is in THE full Moon days that is to say three days..

If every month the full moon days are siyam, then verse 2184 is enough for the sake of Siyam since Ayyamin madudath itself the full moon three days regardless which month or which full moon.. . Since Allah has elaborated in addition to 2184 in a specific manner in the verse 2185, it cannot be merely every full Moon days.. It could have beeen if there is no WORD of Ramadan in verse 2185 to deduce it is in every full moon days.. But Ramadhan in the verse indicates that Siyam is not every full moon days but only in one particular full moon days in a calendar year..

Normally months names are specifically placed in a language in anceint times based on seasons or special events or their specific gods etc.. So the months indicate throughout the year that exclusively.. Arabic months also have the same characteristics by its name... It is not part of Quran but part of human necessity that they named them to facilitate their regional values and seasons.. Based on that if we take the area of Jordan and northern Arabian peninsula and gulf of Aqaba of Egypt, the names of months do suit to the seasons and special events etc. ... For me I don't see any difference to Gregorian calendar (solar) with Arabic calender (lunar-now).. I mean to say in my thorough understanding January is absolutely equal to Muharram and identical all other months.. .. Yes it is lunar nowadays but no one calculates 29.5 but 30 is perfect.. So no reason that Lunar calender fall behind.. So it was obvious Lunar-Solar calendar was the one it was used in the anceint times in arabia since the names of months are identical to either seasons or their special events etc.. The names of months should not befool the seasons and events that they have named them.. That should befit. Otherwise simply That's ridiculous...
So ramadhan is undoubtedly identical to the month of September.. Moreover Allah had restricted 4 months with intent and in these months are identical for the purpose of Haj. Aren't they? And they are not be altered.. And they are 10th 11th 12th and 1st month in my comprehensive understanding ... On top of that these four months seasons/climates are perfect for long pilgrimage in the area allocated for it from Ibrahim to Mohamed .. Never neglect the fact that four restricted months are continuos and not isolated months according to wording of Quran..
Moreover.. The usage of words in verse 2185 precise.. As you have noticed at the beginning of verse 2185 it only says Shahr Ramadhan.. Not added AL to Shahr nor to Ramadhan.. But AL is added to shahr later part of the verse for the purpose Siyam..
It is manifest by this that A full Moon in Ramad was revealed Quran.. Full moon has three visible nights which can be claimed as full moon.. But God revealed only in one of those Nights during full Moon.. Not all three nights.. So God rightly used Shahr (a full moon) instead of the Full moon
.. But precisely commanded when it comes to Siyam The Full Moon (AL Shahr) since Ayyamin madudath are three full moon days.. Notice the difference.. Just said Shahr for revelation of Quran since it was one night but used AL shahr since command is to Siyam all the three days of the Full moon of Ramadhan.. Had Allah mentioned AL shahr Ramadhan then it would mean that Quran was first revealed in all three nights of the Full moon in Ramad .. To simplify.. There is a big difference to say for example it was held in a full moon day and to say it was held in the full moon days.. So mere Shahr and AL shahr indicates the contrasting difference..
No one can ever know on which of the full moon day of Ramadhan the Quran was revealed first ever.. Even Prophet Mohamed would not have known which full moon Night it was revealed precisely by looking at the full moon.. Since Full Moon are three nights.. But mohamed knows it was revealed on a full moon night in Ramad but most probably not known was it 13th or 14th or 15th... So God has made it easy for all those who siyam in all three full moon days since one of those was in fact the Night in which Quran was revealed..
Even the grammar suits as it says "whoever witnesses THE Shahr (the full moon/3) fast IT.. It means fast complete full moons.. If God had mentioned "who ever witnesses A full moon (merely Shahr without AL /The) fast IT" ..then definitely would mean just fast one of the full moons.. It means only one day.. How perfect God has used the wording..

As accepted conventionally if Ramadhan is a month then in verse 2185 should begin AL Shahr (The month Ramadhan).. Coz precise month... It is manifestly erroneous to word it like " A month(of) Ramadhan in which the Quran was revealed..... "
If Ramadhan was month meant by Allah then in both the places of verses 2185 AL should have been placed before Shahr as AL Shahr..
One would say.. What is wrong saying month of April or month of September.. Why need to add The month of April... Well.. Logic is right but not in all context.. Here verse itself starts with A month (of) Ramadhan... That's weird.. Surely weird.. Every translator forced to add The month of Ramadan so that it makes sense but God has not placed The month..
Reflect well fellow believers.. By the way I hope I answered those who asked privately.

Thank you...

jkhan

Privately asked questions at certain time I answer in publicly so it may bebefit God will for many.. There is no privacy here.. I don't know why some prefer privacy for obvious questions...

Concern for him is.. He says.. I understand that Shahr can mean full moon in verse 2185 and and makes sense that it is three full moon days in Ramadhan... But he needs to know whether is there any other verse which gives Shahr as full moon in Quran.. Well not a bad concern.. I also checked long back.. ASHHUR for me is undoubtedly months . Obviously months not full moon but literally they are full cycle of moon ie 30 days.. Month is based on Moon only according to Quran 105..

936 Indeed, the number of Months (ASH'UR) with Allah is twelve months (Shahr) in the register of Allah the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous .

When we take the verse 936 abd carefully study we can definitely perceive here SHAHR doesn't mean Months or month but it means Full Moon..
The reason is Allah didn't say that in a year 12 months but that is what Allah indeed say.. But the point is Allah has already said that "number of MONTHS (ASH'UR) with Allah is TWELVE /izhnain Ahara (in a year) in the register of Allah... " and needless to say at the end again MONTHS (SHAHR) ..
But here Shahr means Full Moon.. So Allah said.. "indeed the number of MONTHS with Allah is TWELVE full Moon in the register of Allah... So literally there cannot be 13 full moon in a year .. God vehemently deny all sorts of violations in 937..

So.. Without any speck of doubt in my understanding here in verse number 936 Shahr means Full Moon and 12 of them in a year ... So months are based on moon cycle and thus a year is formed with twelve full cycle of moon ..

I hope I answered your question and hope it may benefit to others who also have the same question God will.
Thank you.

jkhan

Salam...

Little off topic perhaps... But still connected o presume.. Well. I was researching out of curisity whether one can be A MUTHTHAQUN by performing Siyam, well be it skipping food and drink or being devoted etc... Well for me BIG NO...
MITHTHQUN is an ultimate achievement by abiding God's law in everything.. It's a complete package.. When I was little weak in understanding the verse of Siyam as it says LA'ALLAKUM THATHTHAKUN thought that observing Siyam lift a person to the status of MUTHTHAKUN... well as I said.. NO..
Those who are interested to research on this pls go through all verses where LAALLAKUM THATHTHAKUN or LAALLAHUM YATHTHAKUN... so you will definitely perceive that it only means that it may make a person GOD CONCIOUS... But not a person who achieved the status of MUTHTHAQUN... for that a complete life one has to do loads of things...
So anyone who erroneously think that they fasted 30 days skipping food and drink has become MUTHTHQUN then that is their foolish thought... Pls don't miss to check the verses as I said above... I don't mention the verses coz I know only interested people will search so they will search somehow... Use corpus.quran to facilitate your search..

Couple of verse I submit but compare all verses for better understanding..

221 "O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become God concious (La'allakum Thaththakun) -

6153 And, , this is My path, which is straight, so follow it; and do not follow ways, for you will be separated from His way. This has He instructed you that you may become God concious (La'allakum thaththakun) .

Thank you...

Nom_de_plume

thus a year is formed with twelve full cycle of moon

peace, years are solar

الحول the annum (cycle)
سنه year (duration/age)
عام year (specific)
سنىن years (sequence)

296 ىود loved احدهم anyone them لو in case ىعمر granted life الف thousand سنه year (duration)
2240 وصىه behest لازوجهم for spouses theirs متعا wherewithal of الى towards الحول the annum

1247 قال said تزرعون thou planting سبع seven سنىن years (sequence 1,2,3...,7 not 7 duration)
1249 ثم furthermore ىاتى bringeth من from بعد after ذلك such عام year (specific)

3114 فى in (within <= less than or equal) عامىن year two
4615 وحمله and pregnancy his وفصاله and separation (suckle) his ثلثون thirty شهرا shahrāan/lunar cycle of

solving inequality equations https//www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/inequality-solving.html

weaning inversely proportional to pregnancy; late babies require less, premature more

pregnancy 6 lunar cycles require 24 {30 – 6} weaning
pregnancy 7 lunar cycles require 23 {30 – 7} weaning
pregnancy 8 lunar cycles require 22 {30 – 8} weaning
pregnancy 9 lunar cycles require 21 {30 – 9} weaning
pregnancy 10 lunar cycles require 20 {30 – 10} weaning

see context word usage https//sunnah.com/urn/505990

Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Zurayq ibn Hayyan, who was in charge of Egypt in the time of al-Walid, Sulayman, and Umar ibn Abd al-'Aziz, mentioned that Umar ibn Abd al- Aziz had written to him saying, "Assess the muslims that you come across and take from what is apparent of their wealth and whatever merchandise is in their charge, one dinar for every forty dinars, and the same proportion from what is less than that down to twenty dinars, and if the amount falls short of that by one third of a dinar then leave it and do not take anything from it. As for the people of the Book that you come across, take from the merchandise in their charge one dinar for every twenty dinars, and the same proportion from what is less than that down to ten dinars, and if the amount falls short by one third of a dinar leave it and do not take anything from it. Give them a receipt for what you have taken from them until the same time next year (الْحَوْلِ)."

Malik said, "The position among us (in Madina) concerning goods which are being managed for trading purposes is that if a man pays zakat on his wealth, and then buys goods with it, whether cloth, slaves or something similar, and then sells them before a year (الْحَوْلُ) has elapsed over them, he does not pay zakat on that wealth until a year (الْحَوْلُ) elapses over it from the day he paid zakat on it. He does not have to pay zakat on any of the goods if he does not sell them for some years (سِنِينَ), and even if he keeps them for a very long time he still only has to pay zakat on them once when he sells them."

Malik said, "The position among us concerning a man who uses gold or silver to buy wheat, dates, or whatever, for trading purposes and keeps it until a year (الْحَوْلُ) has elapsed over it and then sells it, is that he only has to pay zakat on it if and when he sells it, if the price reaches a zakatable amount. This is therefore not the same as the harvest crops that a man reaps from his land, or the dates that he harvests from his palms."

Malik said, "A man who has wealth which he invests in trade, but which does not realise a zakatable profit for him, fixes a month (شَهْرًا) in the year (السَّنَةِ) when he takes stock of what goods he has for trading, and counts the gold and silver that he has in ready money, and if all of it comes to a zakatable amount he pays zakat on it."

Malik said, "The position is the same for muslims who trade and muslims who do not. They only have to pay zakat once in any one year (فِي كُلِّ عَامٍ), whether they trade in that year or not."

حَدَّثَنِي عَنْ مَالِكٍ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سَعِيدٍ، عَنْ زُرَيْقِ بْنِ حَيَّانَ، - وَكَانَ زُرَيْقٌ عَلَى جَوَازِ مِصْرَ فِي زَمَانِ الْوَلِيدِ وَسُلَيْمَانَ وَعُمَرَ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ - فَذَكَرَ أَنَّ عُمَرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ كَتَبَ إِلَيْهِ أَنِ انْظُرْ مَنْ مَرَّ بِكَ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ فَخُذْ مِمَّا ظَهَرَ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ مِمَّا يُدِيرُونَ مِنَ التِّجَارَاتِ مِنْ كُلِّ أَرْبَعِينَ دِينَارًا دِينَارًا فَمَا نَقَصَ فَبِحِسَابِ ذَلِكَ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ عِشْرِينَ دِينَارًا فَإِنْ نَقَصَتْ ثُلُثَ دِينَارٍ فَدَعْهَا وَلاَ تَأْخُذْ مِنْهَا شَيْئًا وَمَنْ مَرَّ بِكَ مِنْ أَهْلِ الذِّمَّةِ فَخُذْ مِمَّا يُدِيرُونَ مِنَ التِّجَارَاتِ مِنْ كُلِّ عِشْرِينَ دِينَارًا دِينَارًا فَمَا نَقَصَ فَبِحِسَابِ ذَلِكَ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ عَشَرَةَ دَنَانِيرَ فَإِنْ نَقَصَتْ ثُلُثَ دِينَارٍ فَدَعْهَا وَلاَ تَأْخُذْ مِنْهَا شَيْئًا وَاكْتُبْ لَهُمْ بِمَا تَأْخُذُ مِنْهُمْ كِتَابًا إِلَى مِثْلِهِ مِنَ الْحَوْلِ ‏.‏ قَالَ مَالِكٌ الأَمْرُ عِنْدَنَا فِيمَا يُدَارُ مِنَ الْعُرُوضِ لِلتِّجَارَاتِ أَنَّ الرَّجُلَ إِذَا صَدَّقَ مَالَهُ ثُمَّ اشْتَرَى بِهِ عَرْضًا بَزًّا أَوْ رَقِيقًا أَوْ مَا أَشْبَهَ ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ بَاعَهُ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَحُولَ عَلَيْهِ الْحَوْلُ فَإِنَّهُ لاَ يُؤَدِّي مِنْ ذَلِكَ الْمَالِ زَكَاةً حَتَّى يَحُولَ عَلَيْهِ الْحَوْلُ مِنْ يَوْمَ صَدَّقَهُ وَأَنَّهُ إِنْ لَمْ يَبِعْ ذَلِكَ الْعَرْضَ سِنِينَ لَمْ يَجِبْ عَلَيْهِ فِي شَىْءٍ مِنْ ذَلِكَ الْعَرْضِ زَكَاةٌ وَإِنْ طَالَ زَمَانُهُ فَإِذَا بَاعَهُ فَلَيْسَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ زَكَاةٌ وَاحِدَةٌ ‏.‏ قَالَ مَالِكٌ الأَمْرُ عِنْدَنَا فِي الرَّجُلِ يَشْتَرِي بِالذَّهَبِ أَوِ الْوَرِقِ حِنْطَةً أَوْ تَمْرًا أَوْ غَيْرَهُمَا لِلتِّجَارَةِ ثُمَّ يُمْسِكُهَا حَتَّى يَحُولَ عَلَيْهَا الْحَوْلُ ثُمَّ يَبِيعُهَا أَنَّ عَلَيْهِ فِيهَا الزَّكَاةَ حِينَ يَبِيعُهَا إِذَا بَلَغَ ثَمَنُهَا مَا تَجِبُ فِيهِ الزَّكَاةُ وَلَيْسَ ذَلِكَ مِثْلَ الْحَصَادِ يَحْصُدُهُ الرَّجُلُ مِنْ أَرْضِهِ وَلاَ مِثْلَ الْجِدَادِ ‏.‏ قَالَ مَالِكٌ وَمَا كَانَ مِنْ مَالٍ عِنْدَ رَجُلٍ يُدِيرُهُ لِلتِّجَارَةِ وَلاَ يَنِضُّ لِصَاحِبِهِ مِنْهُ شَىْءٌ تَجِبُ عَلَيْهِ فِيهِ الزَّكَاةُ فَإِنَّهُ يَجْعَلُ لَهُ شَهْرًا مِنَ السَّنَةِ يُقَوِّمُ فِيهِ مَا كَانَ عِنْدَهُ مِنْ عَرْضٍ لِلتِّجَارَةِ وَيُحْصِي فِيهِ مَا كَانَ عِنْدَهُ مِنْ نَقْدٍ أَوْ عَيْنٍ فَإِذَا بَلَغَ ذَلِكَ كُلُّهُ مَا تَجِبُ فِيهِ الزَّكَاةُ فَإِنَّهُ يُزَكِّيهِ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ مَالِكٌ وَمَنْ تَجَرَ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَمَنْ لَمْ يَتْجُرْ سَوَاءٌ لَيْسَ عَلَيْهِمْ إِلاَّ صَدَقَةٌ وَاحِدَةٌ فِي كُلِّ عَامٍ تَجَرُوا فِيهِ أَوْ لَمْ يَتْجُرُوا ‏.‏

USC-MSA web (English) reference Book 17, Hadith 20
Arabic reference Book 17, Hadith 599

jkhan

peace, years are solar

الحول the annum (cycle)
سنه year (duration/age)
عام year (specific)
سنىن years (sequence)

296 ىود loved احدهم anyone them لو in case ىعمر granted life الف thousand سنه year (duration)
2240 وصىه behest لازوجهم for spouses theirs متعا wherewithal of الى towards الحول the annum

1247 قال said تزرعون thou planting سبع seven سنىن years (sequence 1,2,3...,7 not 7 duration)
1249 ثم furthermore ىاتى bringeth من from بعد after ذلك such عام year (specific)

3114 فى in (within <= less than or equal) عامىن year two
4615 وحمله and pregnancy his وفصاله and separation (suckle) his ثلثون thirty شهرا shahrāan/lunar cycle of

solving inequality equations https//www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/inequality-solving.html

weaning inversely proportional to pregnancy; late babies require less, premature more

pregnancy 6 lunar cycles require 24 {30 – 6} weaning
pregnancy 7 lunar cycles require 23 {30 – 7} weaning
pregnancy 8 lunar cycles require 22 {30 – 8} weaning
pregnancy 9 lunar cycles require 21 {30 – 9} weaning
pregnancy 10 lunar cycles require 20 {30 – 10} weaning

see context word usage https//sunnah.com/urn/505990

Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Zurayq ibn Hayyan, who was in charge of Egypt in the time of al-Walid, Sulayman, and Umar ibn Abd al-'Aziz, mentioned that Umar ibn Abd al- Aziz had written to him saying, "Assess the muslims that you come across and take from what is apparent of their wealth and whatever merchandise is in their charge, one dinar for every forty dinars, and the same proportion from what is less than that down to twenty dinars, and if the amount falls short of that by one third of a dinar then leave it and do not take anything from it. As for the people of the Book that you come across, take from the merchandise in their charge one dinar for every twenty dinars, and the same proportion from what is less than that down to ten dinars, and if the amount falls short by one third of a dinar leave it and do not take anything from it. Give them a receipt for what you have taken from them until the same time next year (الْحَوْلِ)."

Malik said, "The position among us (in Madina) concerning goods which are being managed for trading purposes is that if a man pays zakat on his wealth, and then buys goods with it, whether cloth, slaves or something similar, and then sells them before a year (الْحَوْلُ) has elapsed over them, he does not pay zakat on that wealth until a year (الْحَوْلُ) elapses over it from the day he paid zakat on it. He does not have to pay zakat on any of the goods if he does not sell them for some years (سِنِينَ), and even if he keeps them for a very long time he still only has to pay zakat on them once when he sells them."

Malik said, "The position among us concerning a man who uses gold or silver to buy wheat, dates, or whatever, for trading purposes and keeps it until a year (الْحَوْلُ) has elapsed over it and then sells it, is that he only has to pay zakat on it if and when he sells it, if the price reaches a zakatable amount. This is therefore not the same as the harvest crops that a man reaps from his land, or the dates that he harvests from his palms."

Malik said, "A man who has wealth which he invests in trade, but which does not realise a zakatable profit for him, fixes a month (شَهْرًا) in the year (السَّنَةِ) when he takes stock of what goods he has for trading, and counts the gold and silver that he has in ready money, and if all of it comes to a zakatable amount he pays zakat on it."

Malik said, "The position is the same for muslims who trade and muslims who do not. They only have to pay zakat once in any one year (فِي كُلِّ عَامٍ), whether they trade in that year or not."

حَدَّثَنِي عَنْ مَالِكٍ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سَعِيدٍ، عَنْ زُرَيْقِ بْنِ حَيَّانَ، - وَكَانَ زُرَيْقٌ عَلَى جَوَازِ مِصْرَ فِي زَمَانِ الْوَلِيدِ وَسُلَيْمَانَ وَعُمَرَ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ - فَذَكَرَ أَنَّ عُمَرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ كَتَبَ إِلَيْهِ أَنِ انْظُرْ مَنْ مَرَّ بِكَ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ فَخُذْ مِمَّا ظَهَرَ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ مِمَّا يُدِيرُونَ مِنَ التِّجَارَاتِ مِنْ كُلِّ أَرْبَعِينَ دِينَارًا دِينَارًا فَمَا نَقَصَ فَبِحِسَابِ ذَلِكَ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ عِشْرِينَ دِينَارًا فَإِنْ نَقَصَتْ ثُلُثَ دِينَارٍ فَدَعْهَا وَلاَ تَأْخُذْ مِنْهَا شَيْئًا وَمَنْ مَرَّ بِكَ مِنْ أَهْلِ الذِّمَّةِ فَخُذْ مِمَّا يُدِيرُونَ مِنَ التِّجَارَاتِ مِنْ كُلِّ عِشْرِينَ دِينَارًا دِينَارًا فَمَا نَقَصَ فَبِحِسَابِ ذَلِكَ حَتَّى يَبْلُغَ عَشَرَةَ دَنَانِيرَ فَإِنْ نَقَصَتْ ثُلُثَ دِينَارٍ فَدَعْهَا وَلاَ تَأْخُذْ مِنْهَا شَيْئًا وَاكْتُبْ لَهُمْ بِمَا تَأْخُذُ مِنْهُمْ كِتَابًا إِلَى مِثْلِهِ مِنَ الْحَوْلِ ‏.‏ قَالَ مَالِكٌ الأَمْرُ عِنْدَنَا فِيمَا يُدَارُ مِنَ الْعُرُوضِ لِلتِّجَارَاتِ أَنَّ الرَّجُلَ إِذَا صَدَّقَ مَالَهُ ثُمَّ اشْتَرَى بِهِ عَرْضًا بَزًّا أَوْ رَقِيقًا أَوْ مَا أَشْبَهَ ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ بَاعَهُ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَحُولَ عَلَيْهِ الْحَوْلُ فَإِنَّهُ لاَ يُؤَدِّي مِنْ ذَلِكَ الْمَالِ زَكَاةً حَتَّى يَحُولَ عَلَيْهِ الْحَوْلُ مِنْ يَوْمَ صَدَّقَهُ وَأَنَّهُ إِنْ لَمْ يَبِعْ ذَلِكَ الْعَرْضَ سِنِينَ لَمْ يَجِبْ عَلَيْهِ فِي شَىْءٍ مِنْ ذَلِكَ الْعَرْضِ زَكَاةٌ وَإِنْ طَالَ زَمَانُهُ فَإِذَا بَاعَهُ فَلَيْسَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ زَكَاةٌ وَاحِدَةٌ ‏.‏ قَالَ مَالِكٌ الأَمْرُ عِنْدَنَا فِي الرَّجُلِ يَشْتَرِي بِالذَّهَبِ أَوِ الْوَرِقِ حِنْطَةً أَوْ تَمْرًا أَوْ غَيْرَهُمَا لِلتِّجَارَةِ ثُمَّ يُمْسِكُهَا حَتَّى يَحُولَ عَلَيْهَا الْحَوْلُ ثُمَّ يَبِيعُهَا أَنَّ عَلَيْهِ فِيهَا الزَّكَاةَ حِينَ يَبِيعُهَا إِذَا بَلَغَ ثَمَنُهَا مَا تَجِبُ فِيهِ الزَّكَاةُ وَلَيْسَ ذَلِكَ مِثْلَ الْحَصَادِ يَحْصُدُهُ الرَّجُلُ مِنْ أَرْضِهِ وَلاَ مِثْلَ الْجِدَادِ ‏.‏ قَالَ مَالِكٌ وَمَا كَانَ مِنْ مَالٍ عِنْدَ رَجُلٍ يُدِيرُهُ لِلتِّجَارَةِ وَلاَ يَنِضُّ لِصَاحِبِهِ مِنْهُ شَىْءٌ تَجِبُ عَلَيْهِ فِيهِ الزَّكَاةُ فَإِنَّهُ يَجْعَلُ لَهُ شَهْرًا مِنَ السَّنَةِ يُقَوِّمُ فِيهِ مَا كَانَ عِنْدَهُ مِنْ عَرْضٍ لِلتِّجَارَةِ وَيُحْصِي فِيهِ مَا كَانَ عِنْدَهُ مِنْ نَقْدٍ أَوْ عَيْنٍ فَإِذَا بَلَغَ ذَلِكَ كُلُّهُ مَا تَجِبُ فِيهِ الزَّكَاةُ فَإِنَّهُ يُزَكِّيهِ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ مَالِكٌ وَمَنْ تَجَرَ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَمَنْ لَمْ يَتْجُرْ سَوَاءٌ لَيْسَ عَلَيْهِمْ إِلاَّ صَدَقَةٌ وَاحِدَةٌ فِي كُلِّ عَامٍ تَجَرُوا فِيهِ أَوْ لَمْ يَتْجُرُوا ‏.‏

USC-MSA web (English) reference Book 17, Hadith 20
Arabic reference Book 17, Hadith 599

Salam...
Thank you brother..

Well... You have not given any concrete evidence to claim that YEARS ARE SOLAR... just your wording... It won't work out in that manner.. So to substantiate it you are just merely giving the difference or rather meaning of Aam, Sana etc.. on top of that bringing considerable amount of Hadiths to equalise Quranic meNing of words .. What logic is this? So is that what you prove that Years are solar.. In my understanding that's sheer baseless and nonsensical...

Yes.. We all know day and night deduce a Day in general.. So we know tine is moving.. Sun plays the role to bring day and night which is literally a day... That no one can deny... But we should not neglect the fact that God has created the Moon as well.. And He didn't let the Moon full moon throughout the year but He assigned for it phases and it is typically the calendar for anyone. Yes.. I am aware God is precise in His verses..

When you look at verse 105 it teaches us that Moon has a function other than its many other function it has. It indicates or makes us know the count of Years.. Well that's what verse 1712 also says.. So is that a contradiction? No..
It really amazes that both gives same counting.. That is to say one typical calendar .. 30 days a month and 360 days a year..

If we don't take it thus, then God's statement that "A day with God is like thousand years of what we count" is bit bizzare... So it will end up as which one..is it 354/5 or 360 or 365/6...
Literally in 1000 years there is roughly 31 years difference if taken as 354 days calendar.. So not thousand but 1031 .. So what exactly God meant by what we count... So if God said 1000 years it is 1000 only.. No less no more.. Right?

So Moon is the one assigned naturally to count month and thus Years.. 30X12 =360.. This is real counting.. And that was what ancient people practiced widely for ages so did Nuh to many a prophets... Yes Egyptians changed it to 365 days for a fancy reason of Nut.. Then Greeks followed immediately ... I don't mind.. Let it be..

That's perfect within Quran..

On top of that... Word AAM and SANA... not gonna decide solar or lunar... That's so weird..
Let me give my understanding of both AAM and SANA within quran ...
As far as I researched... AAM = YEAR but from the beginning.. That is to say like a calendar for example Jan to Dec.. Or in arabic Muharram to Haj...
..
On the other hand SANA = YEAR but any point of time.. That is to say March 2022 to Feb 2023 complete year but any given time... If you read all verses if you are good enough you will perceive it in sha Allah...
But one would then question what about the verse in which Nuh was mentioned in which 1000 Sana and 50 AAM is mentioned... These kind of difficult verses either we leave it as Ghaib or those who can reflect can reflect with context and scenario.. As far as I understand Nuh lived 1000 years / SANA... But He lived 50 AAM after great deluge.. Coz 50 AAM was beginning of New world new counting from all over.. So instead of Sana God placed AAM rightly.. But thousand years... Further simply SANA is like for example English alphabet H to G.. But AAM is A - Z...

Anyways this not what I wanted to explain but what I wanted to explain is that Years counted based on phases of Moon while day and night makes a complete Day... That's Quran..

Note if you can understand Quran meaning through hadith then that would be the worst understanding ever one could get... Do it if you are satisfied... Hadiths are formed after Quran.. Dictionaries are formed with amalgamation of old and new meaning of words . .. But Quran is unique and reach for guidance from Allah. . That's my way.. If anyone happy to look for hadiths to get the meaning of particular verse if Quran then do it . Let's hope you get guided...

Nom_de_plume

peace,
Quran to know # years includes sun
see all usages each word for year/s

hadiths have many words for year/s
it’s historical evidence of word usage

lunar does not work mathematically
full-moon, math doesn’t work either

study carefully each word individually
otherwise thread drifts to many topics

Quran is hadith see 12111 oral and written
Surah Yousuf 12101-111 Qari Saeed Noor

https//youtu.be/9EQeOzKqiIE

jkhan

peace,
Quran to know # years includes sun
see all usages each word for year/s

hadiths have many words for year/s
it’s historical evidence of word usage

lunar does not work mathematically
full-moon, math doesn’t work either

study carefully each word individually
otherwise thread drifts to many topics

Quran is hadith see 12111 oral and written
Surah Yousuf 12101-111 Qari Saeed Noor

https//youtu.be/9EQeOzKqiIE

Peace...

Just bcoz you say it doesn't work means that it is true.. Just speak with logic and within Quran.. Just placing Arabic Quran KNE side your translation on the other won't become things clear... Ensure to make sense by what you write... I mean it...

Hadith have many words for years you said... So let it be... Did I say No...? Concentrate on Quran... So did you say according to hadith that YEAR IS SOLAR... perhaps you are ..

Meanwhile your statemnt Quran is Hadith... Well Hadith is NARATION... so every NARATION has an author or for that matter for every statement there is an author... Author of Quran is Allah.. That is to say narrated by God.. So it is Hadith from Allah... It is not any fabricated Hadith like what you have brought to compare the verses of God with them so that we can get meaning of God's verses throught hadiths of people... As if God doesn't know language of Arabic so you reach the Hadith references to get what God has said in His book.. That's my perception is sheer shame...

May God guide those intention is pure... Don't just say YEAR IS SOLAR as if you have evidence from Quran... If you have I won't drag you this far... Anyway thank you... Reflect honestly if you love the life of hereafter...

Nom_de_plume

peace,
already posted examples here’s another, if they put you to sleep on a remote island as companions the cave or Robinson Crusoe — wakeup stranded

how do you keep track of time or years?
which full-moon is Ramadan — how so?

3114 two solar or lunar years?

4615 forty, solar or lunar years?
4615 thirty full-moons/months?

3114
‎وفصله and separation (breastfeeding) his فى in (<= ) عامىن year two

4615
‎وحمله and carry/pregnancy his وفصله and separation/breastfeeding his ثلثون thirty شهرا lunar cycle of حتى until اذا when of بلغ reach اشده vigor his وبلغ and reach اربعىن forty سنه year

likewise, try and do breastfeeding calculations?
these made cutoff to survive 21*7 = 147 days

James Elgin Gill born Ottawa, Ontario, May 20, 1987, 21 weeks gestation

Curtis Means born on July 5, 2020, 21 weeks and 1 day gestation at birth

jkhan

peace,
already posted examples here’s another, if they put you to sleep on a remote island as companions the cave or Robinson Crusoe — wakeup stranded

how do you keep track of time or years?
which full-moon is Ramadan — how so?

3114 two solar or lunar years?

4615 forty, solar or lunar years?
4615 thirty full-moons/months?

3114
‎وفصله and separation (breastfeeding) his فى in (<= ) عامىن year two

4615
‎وحمله and carry/pregnancy his وفصله and separation/breastfeeding his ثلثون thirty شهرا lunar cycle of حتى until اذا when of بلغ reach اشده vigor his وبلغ and reach اربعىن forty سنه year

likewise, try and do breastfeeding calculations?
these made cutoff to survive 21*7 = 147 days

James Elgin Gill born Ottawa, Ontario, May 20, 1987, 21 weeks gestation

Curtis Means born on July 5, 2020, 21 weeks and 1 day gestation at birth

Just read what I have written if you have issues in finding answers to your concern above... Just coz you don't have answers doesn't mean all dong have... Problem is not willing to accept truth or truth doesn't seem truth to you...
I am not gonna repeat.. That's waste of everything....

Have a good journey with Hadith and find answers to your problems...

Nom_de_plume

Just read what I have written if you have issues in finding answers to your concern above... Just coz you don't have answers doesn't mean all dong have... Problem is not willing to accept truth or truth doesn't seem truth to you...
I am not gonna repeat.. That's waste of everything....

Have a good journey with Hadith and find answers to your problems...

hadith can provide insights into meanings of Arabic words help understand nuances and subtleties across contexts and gave examples of calculations and timings that need the sun, etc.

Quran for instance, "sana (سَنَةً)" known duration, "aam (عَامًا)" specific year, "sinin (سِنِينَ)" plural sequence or to a variable of time.

pertaining to topic and to summarize

Sawm (صَوْم)
”Fasting is a shield with which a servant protects himself from the Fire." (Narrated by Ahmad)

Siyam (صِيَام)
”Allah said 'All the deeds of Adam's sons (people) are for them, except fasting which is for Me, and I will give the reward for it.'" (Narrated by Bukhari)

Saum (صَوْمًا)
”The Prophet (peace be upon him) said 'Fasting is a shield, so when one of you is fasting, he should not engage in sexual intercourse or behave foolishly. If someone insults him or fights him, he should say 'I am fasting.'” Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim)

example words used together include month

“The Prophet (peace be upon him) said 'The most beloved deeds to Allah are those that are consistent even if they are small. Siyam on Mondays and Thursdays and fasting (saum) three days of every month are considered consistent deeds.'" (Narrated by Tirmidhi)

Arabic "قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَحَبُّ الأَعْمَالِ إِلَى اللهِ تَعَالَى الدَّائِمُونَ وَإِنْ قَلُّوا، فَصِيَامُ يَوْمَ الاِثْنَيْنِ وَالْخَمِيسِ، وَصِيَامُ ثَلَاثَةِ أَيَّامٍ مِنْ كُلِّ شَهْرٍ دَائِمٌ."

You don’t have to believe in hadith (not the point) rather study the words being used therein, same with inscriptions or receipts for sheep etc.

https//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERF_558

peace!

jkhan

hadith can provide insights into meanings of Arabic words help understand nuances and subtleties across contexts and gave examples of calculations and timings that need the sun, etc.

Quran for instance, "sana (سَنَةً)" known duration, "aam (عَامًا)" specific year, "sinin (سِنِينَ)" plural sequence or to a variable of time.

pertaining to topic and to summarize

Sawm (صَوْم)
”Fasting is a shield with which a servant protects himself from the Fire." (Narrated by Ahmad)

Siyam (صِيَام)
”Allah said 'All the deeds of Adam's sons (people) are for them, except fasting which is for Me, and I will give the reward for it.'" (Narrated by Bukhari)

Saum (صَوْمًا)
”The Prophet (peace be upon him) said 'Fasting is a shield, so when one of you is fasting, he should not engage in sexual intercourse or behave foolishly. If someone insults him or fights him, he should say 'I am fasting.'” Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim)

example words used together include month

“The Prophet (peace be upon him) said 'The most beloved deeds to Allah are those that are consistent even if they are small. Siyam on Mondays and Thursdays and fasting (saum) three days of every month are considered consistent deeds.'" (Narrated by Tirmidhi)

Arabic "قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَحَبُّ الأَعْمَالِ إِلَى اللهِ تَعَالَى الدَّائِمُونَ وَإِنْ قَلُّوا، فَصِيَامُ يَوْمَ الاِثْنَيْنِ وَالْخَمِيسِ، وَصِيَامُ ثَلَاثَةِ أَيَّامٍ مِنْ كُلِّ شَهْرٍ دَائِمٌ."

You don’t have to believe in hadith (not the point) rather study the words being used therein, same with inscriptions or receipts for sheep etc.

https//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERF_558

peace!

Salam again...

Anyway thank you.... So you got the proof that Year is Solar from Quran from the help of word usage in human hadith... Be content with it...

As you said.. You don't need to believe in Hadith but but study for word usage... So funny brother... So you didn't understand Quran so you got the help of hadith so you get what is written in Quran... Yes.. You don't follow by doing so hadith ... But you literally do... You don't realise what you do... Word usage of a human invented book is human understanding of words... But word usage of God's book is real meaning of words .. No alteration of meaning in it with time... For example word ummi if you read all the relevant hadith you will only get human infusion of the word but God has meant different in Quran... Or else.. Word ZAKATH... Even how much you try hadith would say ZAKATH is charity... I know they know the meaning of Zakath as well Purity but in their hadith they won't say so... Or else Sala thatveouod say Prayer.. And they knew Salah has other meaning but they won't use in line with Quran verse as thus... There was no hadith before QURAN was revealed... Or else bring Hadiths that was written before QURAN was revealed and the hadiths that are normal like stories or events or history so in which nothing of what is written in Quran is mentioned.. But the hadith that you bring is all relevant Quran verses and based on that hadiths are invented. So literally that is inevtion out of Quran their own understanding and their exaggeration... So don't get trapped to those understanding while your understanding could be different if God guided you while most probably they those who wrote the hadith not guided so they meant words in that manner... Got me?

So... Use hadith that was before QURAN for language usage which is not at relevant to Quran.. So it is like Dictionary.... Dictionary has many a meaning for a word.. But hadith has only meaning that too inevtion through Quran...

Make it or break it... I can't help with your path. But I am blessed to choose right path in right way... If you find Hadith written based on a particular Quran verse is helpful to you to grasp the same Quran verse then there is something lacking in you and the writer of hadith is more knowledgeable... Be content... Thank you

Note every hadith is targeted with a particular quran verse and they spread in vast level.. No hadith is away from Quran... But in fact away from Quran but root they have picked is from Quran to make fancy statements hadith... At least you Be intelligent if they were fool

Nom_de_plume

Obviously your reading comprehension is atrocious as your writing.
Where did write that the year is solar is due to hadith not in Quran?

jkhan

Obviously your reading comprehension is atrocious as your writing.
Where did write that the year is solar is due to hadith not in Quran?

Read what I wrote or just be satisfied with what your mind preoccupied...

Thank you...

Well let me open a new topic... Understanding quran through Hadith

amin

Fasting, pilgrimage and other rituals are all based on seasonal factors, this is how it was, but as with technology we are loosing meaning to those, and everything become rituals without any meanings, do people go pilgrimage on some rainy or snowy season or periods of hindrances, its not possible, now this age we see everyone as one community, but hundreds or years ago, people has customs and rituals based on the local traditions and they followed it for their comforts and it continues even now, our pilgrimage and fasting is also one such, if we see benefits we can follow all such traditions, or feel if its unreasonable or superstition just, ignore and move on.

jkhan

Peace,

After reading the articles of this site in French that I found interesting https//nawaat.org/portail/author/dukhani/

I wonder about the definition of siyam and have severl questions about the verse 2187

God explains what is allowed during the night and what we should not do during our spiritual retreat in almasajid.

Is the instructions “until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn", concerns both “to approach your women sexually » and eat and drink ?

Is this part of the verse « God knew that you used to betray your souls » concerns both “to approach your women sexually » and eat and drink ?

During the spiritual retreat in almasajid, why god did not specify both do not approach them (your women sexually) and don’t eat and drink ?

2187 It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam / fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete alssiyama / the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.

The spiritual retreat during siyam serves to receive divine guidance as explained in the following verse “and magnify God for what He has guided you to »

2185 Shahr ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshshahra shall yasumhu / fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

I am convinced of the interest of fasting for health. I do not think that fasting is the purpose of siyam
Spiritual retreat for a fixed number of days is crucial to receive guidance, to connect to God.

Thank you for your debate on this topic

I find a great evidence in 2196 to substantiate that 2187 .. Yes..if anyone is of the opinion that 2187 is not talking about sexual relations by word Rafathza then I am not gonna agree with him until he brings glaring evidence.. Further word Bushirahunna in verse 2187 is very much connected with Rafathza but bashiruhunna is REJOICE with Them... Yes I have seen some Quran alone scholars giving their understanding that here nothing to do with sex... but I don't blame them at all.. Thats what they understood within Quran.. God forgives the errirs of believers not disbelivers..

Why I say 2196 has substantiates my claim is. In it states about Siyam.. In fact Siyam is Abstinence / Self discipline applying limits if Allah.. So.. Here in 2196 states to practice self discipline during haj 3 days.. Note well already we know there is no Sex in Haj (confirms 2197).. So during haj 3 days of abstinence /self decipline.. But one more condition is there... Seven days after reaching home basically.. But this for whose family (literally take wife) is not in AMAH (in the state of acknowledging The sanctioned).. It means his wife is not with him in for Haj in AL masjid AL haram (AMAH) .. So 7 days of abstinence after going home.. So if his wife is in Haj in AMAH then what could be the rule?. 10 continuous days of abstinence /self discipline during Haj.. Yes.. So.. One would wonder why two different rules for whose wife is not in Haj with him and other rule for his wife is with him.. Yes.. Reason is one of the stipulations of Haj is No Sex throughout... But for Siyam only during day time.. Night allowed.. But here 2196 is about haj.. So.. This person unfortunatly stuck and fallen into abstinence penalties coz of his own errors.. But continuously 10 days of self discipline during haj won't make sense coz his wife not with him.. So God wants to test him with when he returns home with family whether he obliges the rest of 7 days (night and day since haj conditions) in self discipline /abstinence..

So.. 2187 is in fact sex by word Rafathza..

Note AMAH is my understanding not necessary to take as yours... AMAH for me is (In the state of acknowledgement /Submission for the Sanctioned) and AMAH is temporary it only applies while Haj is taking place.. other times sanctioned is lifted.. AMAH could indirectly become a place since the Haj is taking place with the state of acknowledgement the sanctioned IN A PLACE.. but place itself is not AMAH.. if I put a parable. It is like Olympics.. Olympics =AMAH.. when it happens in a particular destination it becomes literally Olympic village.. But that place itself not Olympic when it is not happening.. Importance instituted to the place coz of Olympics not coz of place.. Like we say we are going to Olympics... Like you can say we going to AMAH..