Isn't the Bible better...

Fusion

ignoreHello GL,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate your emphasis on critical thinking and personal responsibility in understanding the Quran.

While I agree that we should not blindly follow the interpretations of others, I also believe that there is value in seeking knowledge and guidance from scholars who have studied the Quran and its context extensively. They can provide insights and perspectives that may not be immediately apparent to individual readers.
Regarding the hadiths and other men's words, while they may not carry the same weight as the Quran, they can still provide valuable context and understanding of the historical and cultural context in which the Quran was revealed. It is up to each individual to weigh the evidence and make their own informed decisions about how to interpret and apply the teachings of Islam.

Examples[In support of your statement where Quran tells not to follow forefathers, scholars Blindly....
2170
When it is said to them, “Follow what Allah has revealed,” they reply, “No! We ˹only˺ follow what we found our forefathers practicing.” ˹Would they still do so,˺ even if their forefathers had ˹absolutely˺ no understanding or guidance?

(5104) When they are asked 'Come to what Allah has revealed, and come to the Messenger', they reply 'The way of our refathers suffices us.' (Will they continue to follow their forefathers) even though their forefathers might have known nothing, and might have been on the wrong way?

And then this verse
(2133) Why, were you witnesses when death came to Jacob? He asked his children “Whom will you serve after me?” They said “We shall serve your God, the God of your forefathers, Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, the One God, and unto Him do we submit.”

Please understand that verse of Quran need some times the context, hence the Qur'an is not against following one's forefathers. The Qur'an encourages critical thinking and individual responsibility when it comes to matters of faith.

In verse 2170, the Qur'an is criticizing those who blindly follow the traditions of their forefathers without questioning or examining them. This is because such traditions may be based on ignorance or falsehoods, and following them without questioning can lead to errors and misguided beliefs.

In verse 5104, the Qur'an is pointing out the fact that many people, even when presented with clear guidance from God, still choose to follow the traditions of their forefathers out of stubbornness or a sense of loyalty. This is a warning against the dangers of blindly following tradition and ignoring God's guidance.

In verse 2133, the Prophet is asking his own children to follow in his footsteps, not necessarily to blindly follow their forefathers. This is because the Prophet was a messenger of God and his teachings were based on divine guidance. The Prophet's children were aware of his character and conduct, and thus were inclined to follow his example.

So, in essence, the Qur'an is not against following one's forefathers per se, but rather it encourages critical thinking and examination of beliefs, even if they are traditions that have been passed down from one's forefathers. The Prophet's children were not blindly following their forefathers, but rather they were following the example of a messenger of God who was known for his righteousness and adherence to divine guidance.

Ultimately, I believe that the Quran is the ultimate source of guidance for Muslims, and that we should strive to follow its teachings to the best of our abilities. May God guide us all in our search for truth and understanding.

Peace to you as well.

good_logic

Peace Fusion.

What did the messenger follow? Remember he had no hadiths, they were invented /came about after him.
The messenger followed Qoran and applied GOD s message in his life .

So how are those following hadiths following the messenger? On the contrary they are not following the messenger.

The only way to follow the messenger is to follow the message /Qoran like he did.
Or what reasoning are you using brother?
Sorry I am failing to understand what you are saying to me?
If you are also failing to understand what I am saying to you, then we might as well leave it at that.

Or may be the messenger has left you both the Qoran and hadiths.
For me ,he left only Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace..

Fusion

I appreciate your perspective on following the Quran alone and I understand that you believe that following the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) means following the Quran only. However, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the messenger of Allah and he not only recited the Quran but also explained and applied its teachings in his life. His companions closely observed his actions and teachings, and they narrated and preserved them through hadiths. These hadiths provide us with valuable insights into the application of the Quranic teachings in various situations.

It is important to note that not all hadiths are authentic and some may be weak or fabricated. Therefore, it is essential to approach them critically and verify their authenticity before accepting them. However, this does not mean that all hadiths are unreliable and should be rejected altogether.

In verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his sunnah (traditions or way of life). The sunnah includes the Prophet's actions, sayings, and approvals. Hadiths are a valuable source to understand the Prophet's sunnah and apply it in our lives.

Therefore, following the Quran and the Prophet's sunnah, as recorded in the authentic hadiths, is the best way to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is not about blindly following forefathers or scholars, but about following the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and applying them in our lives.

May Allah guide us all to the straight path.

Peace be upon you too.

good_logic

Peace Fusion.
You can disagree with me ,it is your choice,but you cannot make Qoran say what it does not say.
like hereQuote

"In verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his sunnah (traditions or way of life). The sunnah includes the Prophet's actions, sayings, and approvals. Hadiths are a valuable source to understand the Prophet's sunnah and apply it in our lives.

Therefore, following the Quran and the Prophet's sunnah, as recorded in the authentic hadiths, is the best way to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is not about blindly following forefathers or scholars, but about following the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and applying them in our lives."

Read 331 again, this time ponder each word,start from 330 (You can ignore the translation,the Arabic version is provided)

"The day will come when each soul will find all the good works it had done brought forth. As for the evil works, it will wish that they were far, far removed. God alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. God is Compassionate towards the people.
يَومَ تَجِدُ كُلُّ نَفسٍ ما عَمِلَت مِن خَيرٍ مُحضَرًا وَما عَمِلَت مِن سوءٍ تَوَدُّ لَو أَنَّ بَينَها وَبَينَهُ أَمَدًا بَعيدًا وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفسَهُ وَاللَّهُ رَءوفٌ بِالعِبادِ

Proclaim "If you love God, you should follow me." God will then love you, and forgive your sins. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
قُل إِن كُنتُم تُحِبّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعونى يُحبِبكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغفِر لَكُم ذُنوبَكُم وَاللَّهُ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ

Proclaim "You shall obey God and the messenger." If they turn away, God does not love the disbelievers.
قُل أَطيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسولَ فَإِن تَوَلَّوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُحِبُّ الكٰفِرينَ

1- "Follow me" is explained in 332 by "Obey GOD and obey the messenger". That is how you follow the prophet . The sunnah of the prophet is never mentioned and does not exist in Qoran. Only GOD s sunnah-System-. Or bring any verse where GOD says obey the prophet Mohammed and his sunnah. You will not find a single verse why?
Because Qoran also says "Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed GOD". .The messenger does not bring or add his own words/message ,in that case he becomes his own messenger not GOD s.. GOD s words are precise ,measured and never contradict the meaning and concept.

2-Now you can keep disagreeing with me ,but what you can never do is make Qoran say nonsense and contradictions.
Qoran says in numerous verses "Follow what GOD has revealed and do not follow any other authority/another god or anyone else s revelations " .
What GOD has revealed is clear and in a separate book of its own , not what the prophet said or others heard him say as a man in his own words.
You are mixing GOD s words with the prophet s own words and other so called hear say and obeying the prophet but disobeying GOD s own words.
Actually Qoran clearly says the messenger does not disobey GOD ,so how can he mix his own words with GOD s words and deliver both?
Or give lip service to Qoran and keep disobeying GOD.
Your choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Thank you Brother Jkhan, for taking the time to read my post and share your thoughts. I appreciate your passion for the Quran and your desire to follow it alone. However, I respectfully disagree with some of the points you made in your response.

Regarding the first point you raised about the verses 255 and 2948, I understand that you interpret them as evidence that the Prophet Muhammad wrote the Quran himself. However, it is important to note that there are other valid interpretations of these verses. Some scholars believe that 255 is referring to the claims of the disbelievers who accused the Prophet of reciting "tales of the ancients" rather than the Quran, and that 2948 is emphasizing the miraculous nature of the Quran's revelation and the fact that it was not written by human hands. Therefore, while I respect your interpretation, I believe that it is not the only possible one.

Regarding the use of historical evidence and hadith, I want to clarify that I did not argue that hadith should be blindly followed as historical evidence. Rather, my point was that the interpretation and application of religious texts, including the Quran, can be influenced by various factors, including historical context and individual beliefs. While it is important to consider authentic hadith in order to understand the context and meaning of certain Quranic verses, we should also be critical of hadith that do not align with the Quran or with established historical facts.

I understand that you may have your own reasons for rejecting certain hadith, and I respect your right to do so. However, I would encourage you to approach these issues with an open mind and a willingness to engage in respectful dialogue with those who may have different perspectives. After all, as you pointed out, Allah does not guide those who do not want guidance, but He does encourage us to seek knowledge and understanding in all aspects of our lives.

Finally, I want to emphasize that my post was not to criticize or belittle anyone's beliefs. Rather, I wanted to explore some of the complex issues surrounding the interpretation and application of religious texts, and to encourage readers to think critically about these issues. I hope that my response has been respectful and informative.

Peace...

Either you debate in a way it deserves Or ask your scholars you follow to come and debate, rather than saying some scholars have different view on these two verses thus you follow what they say directly and not what Quran says...

Isn't that nonsensical while Quran commands to explore Quran...

Well... Let me wind it up in a pragmatic way.. Let me take quran and hadith... For example.. Hmmm.. Four steps of washings before Salat... Okay Quran is clear... 56 and 443.. Meanwhile hadith has seven steps... So if Mohamed practices 7 steps instead of 4 steps.. It means Mohamed has got some other sources or devine intervention so that Mohamed practiced 7 steps instead of Quranic command... Coz you say Mohamed explained the Quran and taught the Quran... So.. No mohamed or anyone on this earth can teach based on 56 and 443 seven steps before salat... But somehow hadith instructs to do seven steps... So followers of sunna they follow seven steps...
So is it through Mohamed's wisdom or knowledge or extra revelation or on his own he practiced seven steps?

So Mohamed was not following Quran but something else so approached seven steps... Is that right...

Or else let me take another hadith.... Stoning to death for prostitutes.. As far as I am aware it is not in Quran... But it is in fact in hadith.. I wonder it was practiced and it may still be in practice by so and so..

So.. Same question... From where Mohamed got the wisdom to put into practice such acts which are not in Quran... Or he got a special power to perceive quran verses and get extraordinary meaning to clear verses... But... no way anyone can bring such meaning from manifest verses... So Mohamed has got some other devine revelations saying don't practice Quran verses but practice these extra devine inspirations.. So let the followers do same..

So in a nutshell, you and those unfortunate people who follow hadith books of various people directly accept that Mohamed was not only revealed Quran but other devine revelations... That to the extent leaving Quran verses away but preferred extra devine revelations... Well... Why in the first place Quran was revealed if not for practicing its law, command, teachings etc ?

In the similar way if we take many a practices in action among both shunni and shia sects, there are many a thousand actual religious practices which are not at all in Quran... So is that how Prophet Mohamed taught his people.. I mean some alien practices which are not in Quran?
That's one point...

Another point is... Not at all in Quran nor even in previous books but only in hadith books they are found... Wow..

For example about musa and loads of stories about him.. Or else about Janna and Jahanna.. Not at all in Quran but in hadith... In sahih hadith book...

So... These are not sunna but Ghaib... But somehow in hadith books claiming prophet said Prophet said bla bla... This strange prophet has had many a revelations other than Quran... Otherwise how he would tell all these stories about Gaib...

Why stories of Musa etc is in Quran to certain extent and why much more in hadith in a very fancy manner...

So in a nutshell this prophet had some devine inspiration to talk against Quran's message... And these followers are so happy hearing these hadiths...

Did Mohamed in fact say all these and his companions heard them and wrote them so later Bukhari collected and discarded 98% of them and kept in tact what he preferred and thus a book called sahih bukhari reached to us...

In a simple way Mohamed will deny on the day of judgement... "My Lord my people abandoned this Quran...." Very well said our Messenger... I love to hear that on that day and look at those faces...
You all making a prophet responsible for all these blaspheme who is innocent of all these nonsense ...

If we had a hadith book which explains the verses of Quran on their own understanding that we can say their interpretation but hadith book we have is not explanation of Quran but sheer Nonesencical exagerated blasphemy in the name of prophet...

How blessed and fortunate those who realized it... AL hamdulilah I am not one of those who are stuck like this Fusion...

Thank you...

Fusion

Hello JKhan,

Thank you for your response and for engaging in this discussion. I appreciate your passion for following the Quran alone, and I respect your perspective. I would like to address the points you raised in a respectful and open manner.

Regarding the interpretation of verses 255 and 2948, I understand that you have a specific understanding of these verses. However, it is important to note that different scholars may have different interpretations based on their study and analysis of the Quran. The Quran itself encourages us to reflect and explore its teachings, which is why we have a rich tradition of scholarly interpretations.

Regarding the issue of ablution before Salat, I acknowledge the difference in the number of steps mentioned in the Quran and in some hadith. While the Quran mentions four steps in ablution (56, 443), some hadith mention additional steps. It is worth considering that the additional steps mentioned in the hadith may have developed over time as a practical application or as an elaboration of the basic principles outlined in the Quran. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Prophet Muhammad received a separate revelation or practiced differently from what the Quran instructed.

As for the issue of stoning to death for adultery, I agree that it is not mentioned explicitly in the Quran. However, it is worth noting that there are hadith narrations that mention this punishment. It is important to approach this topic with caution and consider that the application of such punishments requires strict conditions and adherence to the principles of justice outlined in the Quran.

I understand your concern about the presence of stories in hadith that are not found in the Quran, such as the stories of Musa and descriptions of Paradise and Hell. While the Quran provides some details about these topics, hadith literature has further elaborated on them. It is important to approach these stories with critical thinking, as not all of them may hold the same level of authenticity. Scholars of hadith have developed methodologies to assess the reliability of narrations and to differentiate between authentic and weak reports.

Regarding the compilation of hadith collections like Sahih Bukhari, it is true that they were compiled by scholars who sought to preserve the sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad. The process involved scrutinizing and evaluating the narrations to determine their authenticity. However, it is important to recognize that even authentic hadith collections are not considered on the same level as the Quran. They are viewed as a secondary source of guidance, providing insights into the understanding and practices of the early Muslim community.

I want to emphasize that my intention is not to promote blind adherence to hadith or to belittle anyone's beliefs. Rather, I believe in approaching these issues with critical thinking, respectful dialogue, and an open mind. We should strive to seek knowledge, understand different perspectives, and base our beliefs and practices on sound evidence and reasoning.

May we all continue to seek guidance and understanding in our pursuit of knowledge and practice of our faith.

Fusion

Hi GL,

Thank you for sharing your perspective and providing further insights on the verses in question. I respect your commitment to following the Quran and your interpretation of the verses. I would like to address the points you raised

You mentioned that in verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad and his sunnah. However, you argue that the term "sunnah" refers to God's system or way rather than the Prophet's traditions. You also emphasize that obeying the Prophet means obeying God and that the Prophet does not bring his own words or message.
I appreciate your interpretation of the term "sunnah" and its significance in the Quran. It is true that the term can have broader meanings, including God's system or way of doing things. However, it is also important to acknowledge that the term has been traditionally understood to refer to the Prophet Muhammad's actions, sayings, and approvals as recorded in the hadith literature. This understanding has been widely accepted by scholars throughout history. While it is essential to consider different interpretations, it is important to recognize the diversity of scholarly opinions on this matter.

You mentioned the importance of following what God has revealed and not following any other authority or revelations. You argue that the Quran is a separate book containing God's clear words, and that mixing the Prophet's own words with God's words can lead to contradictions and disobedience.
I understand your concern about potential contradictions and the importance of staying true to the Quran's message. It is crucial for believers to prioritize the Quran as the primary source of guidance. However, it is also worth noting that the Prophet Muhammad, as the recipient of the Quranic revelations, played a significant role in explaining and exemplifying its teachings. The hadith literature serves as a means to understand the practical application of the Quran's teachings and the Prophet's understanding of its principles.

While it is important to exercise caution and critically evaluate hadiths, it is also recognized by many scholars that authentic hadiths can provide valuable insights into the Prophet's understanding and application of the Quran. The key is to approach hadiths with a critical mindset, ensuring that they are in alignment with the Quran and established historical facts.

In conclusion, I appreciate your perspective and the emphasis you place on following the Quran. I respect your commitment to understanding and practicing Islam based on your interpretation. It is through open and respectful dialogue that we can continue to deepen our understanding of the Quran and its teachings. May we all seek guidance from God and strive to follow His path.

Peace and blessings to you as well.

good_logic

Peace Fusion.
There is no word sunnah in verse 331. I never said this ,quote

"You mentioned that in verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad and his sunnah."

There is only "Follow me" in 331. You are saying it is "follow prophet Mohammed and his sunnah". I am saying you do not find "follow prophet Mohammed " or "follow prophet Mohammed and his sunnah" in Qoran.

I said "follow me" was explained in 332 as" obey GOD and obey the messenger" Which means " obey GOD and follow His message". Obeying the messenger is Obeying the message he brought from GOD.

You are ignoring the fact that Qoran Alone is complete and GOD Alone is the explainer and teacher . Here are verses for you to ponder in that case

Is there any equal to the One who controls every single soul? Yet, they set up idols to rival God. Say, "Name them. Are you informing Him of something on earth that He does not know? Or, are you fabricating empty statements?" Indeed, the schemes of those who disbelieve have been adorned in their eyes. They are thus diverted from the right path. Whomever God sends astray can never find a guiding teacher.
أَفَمَن هُوَ قائِمٌ عَلىٰ كُلِّ نَفسٍ بِما كَسَبَت وَجَعَلوا لِلَّهِ شُرَكاءَ قُل سَمّوهُم أَم تُنَبِّـٔونَهُ بِما لا يَعلَمُ فِى الأَرضِ أَم بِظٰهِرٍ مِنَ القَولِ بَل زُيِّنَ لِلَّذينَ كَفَروا مَكرُهُم وَصُدّوا عَنِ السَّبيلِ وَمَن يُضلِلِ اللَّهُ فَما لَهُ مِن هادٍ

Hadiths and Qoran are partners to you then? Assign partners to GOD if you insist!!

Those who received the scripture rejoice in what was revealed to you; some others may reject parts of it. Say, "I am simply enjoined to serve/follow God, and never associate any idols with Him. I invite to Him, and to Him is my ultimate destiny."
وَالَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَفرَحونَ بِما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ وَمِنَ الأَحزابِ مَن يُنكِرُ بَعضَهُ قُل إِنَّما أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ اللَّهَ وَلا أُشرِكَ بِهِ إِلَيهِ أَدعوا وَإِلَيهِ مَـٔابِ

Reject GOD s verses and follow hadiths if you keep insisting!

We revealed these laws in Arabic, and if you ever acquiesce to their wishes, after this knowledge has come to you, you will have no ally, nor a protector, against God.
وَكَذٰلِكَ أَنزَلنٰهُ حُكمًا عَرَبِيًّا وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعتَ أَهواءَهُم بَعدَما جاءَكَ مِنَ العِلمِ ما لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن وَلِىٍّ وَلا واق

Follow hadiths laws intead of GOD s laws if you wish!

God erases whatever He wills, and fixes. With Him is the original Master Record.
يَمحُوا اللَّهُ ما يَشاءُ وَيُثبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الكِتٰبِ

Watch, Hadiths being erased from GOD s religion slowly in the future brother. Wake up brother. We never know how long we have left and It will be too late to correct.. The messenger delivered the message to us-Qoran-

Whether we show you what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is us who will call them to account.
وَإِن ما نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعضَ الَّذى نَعِدُهُم أَو نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِنَّما عَلَيكَ البَلٰغُ وَعَلَينَا الحِسابُ
Do they not see that every day on earth, brings them closer to the end, and that God decides their life span, irrevocably? He is the most efficient Reckoner.
أَوَلَم يَرَوا أَنّا نَأتِى الأَرضَ نَنقُصُها مِن أَطرافِها وَاللَّهُ يَحكُمُ لا مُعَقِّبَ لِحُكمِهِ وَهُوَ سَريعُ الحِسابِ

Or may be GOD is going to ask us about hadiths and hold us accountable to them? Never brother, these verses will finish any argument about following hadiths/ here is what we are accountable for

"You cannot make the dead, nor the deaf, hear the call, if they turn away.
إِنَّكَ لا تُسمِعُ المَوتىٰ وَلا تُسمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعاءَ إِذا وَلَّوا مُدبِرينَ

Nor can you guide the blind out of their straying. The only ones who will hear you are those who believe in our revelations, and decide to be Muslimeen.
وَما أَنتَ بِهٰدِى العُمىِ عَن ضَلٰلَتِهِم إِن تُسمِعُ إِلّا مَن يُؤمِنُ بِـٔايٰتِنا فَهُم مُسلِمون.

The day will come when we summon from every community some of those who did not believe in our Aayats, forcibly.
وَيَومَ نَحشُرُ مِن كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ فَوجًا مِمَّن يُكَذِّبُ بِـٔايٰتِنا فَهُم يوزَعونَ

When they arrive, He will say, "You have rejected My revelations, before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?"
حَتّىٰ إِذا جاءو قالَ أَكَذَّبتُم بِـٔايٰتى وَلَم تُحيطوا بِها عِلمًا أَمّاذا كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ
They will incur the requital for their wickedness; they will say nothing.
وَوَقَعَ القَولُ عَلَيهِم بِما ظَلَموا فَهُم لا يَنطِقونَ

Or where does GOD hold us accountable for Qoran and Hadiths? I see only being accountable to study and follow Qoran-GOD s revelations-

I am simply commanded to Ubud(serve/follow) the Lord of this town - He has made it a safe sanctuary - and He possesses all things. I am commanded to be a Muslim .
إِنَّما أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ رَبَّ هٰذِهِ البَلدَةِ الَّذى حَرَّمَها وَلَهُ كُلُّ شَىءٍ وَأُمِرتُ أَن أَكو
And to recite#preach the Qoran. Whoever is guided is guided for his own good, and if they go astray, then say, "I am simply a warner."
وَأَن أَتلُوَا۟ القُرءانَ فَمَنِ اهتَدىٰ فَإِنَّما يَهتَدى لِنَفسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَقُل إِنَّما أَنا۠ مِنَ المُنذِرينَ

Or may be hadiths guide some people. as well.
I finish here also. Your choice brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan