Isn't the Bible better...
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Hello JKhan,
Thank you for your response and for engaging in this discussion. I appreciate your passion for following the Quran alone, and I respect your perspective. I would like to address the points you raised in a respectful and open manner.
Regarding the interpretation of verses 255 and 2948, I understand that you have a specific understanding of these verses. However, it is important to note that different scholars may have different interpretations based on their study and analysis of the Quran. The Quran itself encourages us to reflect and explore its teachings, which is why we have a rich tradition of scholarly interpretations.
Regarding the issue of ablution before Salat, I acknowledge the difference in the number of steps mentioned in the Quran and in some hadith. While the Quran mentions four steps in ablution (56, 443), some hadith mention additional steps. It is worth considering that the additional steps mentioned in the hadith may have developed over time as a practical application or as an elaboration of the basic principles outlined in the Quran. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Prophet Muhammad received a separate revelation or practiced differently from what the Quran instructed.
As for the issue of stoning to death for adultery, I agree that it is not mentioned explicitly in the Quran. However, it is worth noting that there are hadith narrations that mention this punishment. It is important to approach this topic with caution and consider that the application of such punishments requires strict conditions and adherence to the principles of justice outlined in the Quran.
I understand your concern about the presence of stories in hadith that are not found in the Quran, such as the stories of Musa and descriptions of Paradise and Hell. While the Quran provides some details about these topics, hadith literature has further elaborated on them. It is important to approach these stories with critical thinking, as not all of them may hold the same level of authenticity. Scholars of hadith have developed methodologies to assess the reliability of narrations and to differentiate between authentic and weak reports.
Regarding the compilation of hadith collections like Sahih Bukhari, it is true that they were compiled by scholars who sought to preserve the sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad. The process involved scrutinizing and evaluating the narrations to determine their authenticity. However, it is important to recognize that even authentic hadith collections are not considered on the same level as the Quran. They are viewed as a secondary source of guidance, providing insights into the understanding and practices of the early Muslim community.
I want to emphasize that my intention is not to promote blind adherence to hadith or to belittle anyone's beliefs. Rather, I believe in approaching these issues with critical thinking, respectful dialogue, and an open mind. We should strive to seek knowledge, understand different perspectives, and base our beliefs and practices on sound evidence and reasoning.
May we all continue to seek guidance and understanding in our pursuit of knowledge and practice of our faith.
Salam..
Unfortunately you are parroting again and again same... Scholars views... Let me know why you accept that Mohamed didn't write after reading the couple of verses... Then I can question you.. But you skip cunningly... I won't force again...
Second point... You say you have to take those hadiths with caution... Are you out of your mind... You take them with caution or whatever I don't care.. But you skip the question...
Simply say...
From where Mohamed knew all these stories which are not in Quran and that too totally contrary to Quran and mostly not at all in Quran?Answer straightforward.. otherwise people are not fool here not to grasp your hidden agenda here..
Note.... Don't keep appreciating me... For what? Do I follow Quran for your appreciation while you follow hadith... With ehat mindset you appreciate me for following Quran... Needless isn't it..?
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Peace Fusion.
There is no word sunnah in verse 331. I never said this ,quote"You mentioned that in verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad and his sunnah."
There is only "Follow me" in 331. You are saying it is "follow prophet Mohammed and his sunnah". I am saying you do not find "follow prophet Mohammed " or "follow prophet Mohammed and his sunnah" in Qoran.
I said "follow me" was explained in 332 as" obey GOD and obey the messenger" Which means " obey GOD and follow His message". Obeying the messenger is Obeying the message he brought from GOD.
You are ignoring the fact that Qoran Alone is complete and GOD Alone is the explainer and teacher . Here are verses for you to ponder in that case
Is there any equal to the One who controls every single soul? Yet, they set up idols to rival God. Say, "Name them. Are you informing Him of something on earth that He does not know? Or, are you fabricating empty statements?" Indeed, the schemes of those who disbelieve have been adorned in their eyes. They are thus diverted from the right path. Whomever God sends astray can never find a guiding teacher.
أَفَمَن هُوَ قائِمٌ عَلىٰ كُلِّ نَفسٍ بِما كَسَبَت وَجَعَلوا لِلَّهِ شُرَكاءَ قُل سَمّوهُم أَم تُنَبِّـٔونَهُ بِما لا يَعلَمُ فِى الأَرضِ أَم بِظٰهِرٍ مِنَ القَولِ بَل زُيِّنَ لِلَّذينَ كَفَروا مَكرُهُم وَصُدّوا عَنِ السَّبيلِ وَمَن يُضلِلِ اللَّهُ فَما لَهُ مِن هادٍHadiths and Qoran are partners to you then? Assign partners to GOD if you insist!!
Those who received the scripture rejoice in what was revealed to you; some others may reject parts of it. Say, "I am simply enjoined to serve/follow God, and never associate any idols with Him. I invite to Him, and to Him is my ultimate destiny."
وَالَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَفرَحونَ بِما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ وَمِنَ الأَحزابِ مَن يُنكِرُ بَعضَهُ قُل إِنَّما أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ اللَّهَ وَلا أُشرِكَ بِهِ إِلَيهِ أَدعوا وَإِلَيهِ مَـٔابِReject GOD s verses and follow hadiths if you keep insisting!
We revealed these laws in Arabic, and if you ever acquiesce to their wishes, after this knowledge has come to you, you will have no ally, nor a protector, against God.
وَكَذٰلِكَ أَنزَلنٰهُ حُكمًا عَرَبِيًّا وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعتَ أَهواءَهُم بَعدَما جاءَكَ مِنَ العِلمِ ما لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن وَلِىٍّ وَلا واقFollow hadiths laws intead of GOD s laws if you wish!
God erases whatever He wills, and fixes. With Him is the original Master Record.
يَمحُوا اللَّهُ ما يَشاءُ وَيُثبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الكِتٰبِWatch, Hadiths being erased from GOD s religion slowly in the future brother. Wake up brother. We never know how long we have left and It will be too late to correct.. The messenger delivered the message to us-Qoran-
Whether we show you what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is us who will call them to account.
وَإِن ما نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعضَ الَّذى نَعِدُهُم أَو نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِنَّما عَلَيكَ البَلٰغُ وَعَلَينَا الحِسابُ
Do they not see that every day on earth, brings them closer to the end, and that God decides their life span, irrevocably? He is the most efficient Reckoner.
أَوَلَم يَرَوا أَنّا نَأتِى الأَرضَ نَنقُصُها مِن أَطرافِها وَاللَّهُ يَحكُمُ لا مُعَقِّبَ لِحُكمِهِ وَهُوَ سَريعُ الحِسابِOr may be GOD is going to ask us about hadiths and hold us accountable to them? Never brother, these verses will finish any argument about following hadiths/ here is what we are accountable for
"You cannot make the dead, nor the deaf, hear the call, if they turn away.
إِنَّكَ لا تُسمِعُ المَوتىٰ وَلا تُسمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعاءَ إِذا وَلَّوا مُدبِرينَNor can you guide the blind out of their straying. The only ones who will hear you are those who believe in our revelations, and decide to be Muslimeen.
وَما أَنتَ بِهٰدِى العُمىِ عَن ضَلٰلَتِهِم إِن تُسمِعُ إِلّا مَن يُؤمِنُ بِـٔايٰتِنا فَهُم مُسلِمون.The day will come when we summon from every community some of those who did not believe in our Aayats, forcibly.
وَيَومَ نَحشُرُ مِن كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ فَوجًا مِمَّن يُكَذِّبُ بِـٔايٰتِنا فَهُم يوزَعونَWhen they arrive, He will say, "You have rejected My revelations, before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?"
حَتّىٰ إِذا جاءو قالَ أَكَذَّبتُم بِـٔايٰتى وَلَم تُحيطوا بِها عِلمًا أَمّاذا كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ
They will incur the requital for their wickedness; they will say nothing.
وَوَقَعَ القَولُ عَلَيهِم بِما ظَلَموا فَهُم لا يَنطِقونَOr where does GOD hold us accountable for Qoran and Hadiths? I see only being accountable to study and follow Qoran-GOD s revelations-
I am simply commanded to Ubud(serve/follow) the Lord of this town - He has made it a safe sanctuary - and He possesses all things. I am commanded to be a Muslim .
إِنَّما أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ رَبَّ هٰذِهِ البَلدَةِ الَّذى حَرَّمَها وَلَهُ كُلُّ شَىءٍ وَأُمِرتُ أَن أَكو
And to recite#preach the Qoran. Whoever is guided is guided for his own good, and if they go astray, then say, "I am simply a warner."
وَأَن أَتلُوَا۟ القُرءانَ فَمَنِ اهتَدىٰ فَإِنَّما يَهتَدى لِنَفسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَقُل إِنَّما أَنا۠ مِنَ المُنذِرينَOr may be hadiths guide some people. as well.
I finish here also. Your choice brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Yes... GL Salam...
These are the kind of verses they always bring forward to substantiate their claim of following or obeying the man prophet MOHAMED.. They totally disregard what to obey or what to follow... That's why love to keep long beard... Or brush as he brushed allegedly... Etc etc...
Below verse is Hud said to his people Aad.. ... Does it mean keep beard like me.. Bla bla... No.. He was a messenger of Allah (Rasool Alllah) so obey coz he has been placed with message of Allah...
26126 Indeed, I am to you a trustworthy messenger.
26126 So fear Allah and OBEY MEIf you keep reading the verses in this chapter 26 you will see all Messengers saying Fear Allah and OBEY ME...
........3620 And there came from the farthest end of the city a man, running. He said, "O my people, FOLLOW the MESSENGERS.
In the above verse of chapter Yasin three Messengers for one area.. Well obey all. Messengers not their way of beard or their dress.. Were they identical in the way they dress or their size of beard etc... So nonsensical how these people use their intellect...
4038 And he who believed said, "O my people, FOLLOW ME, I will guide you to the way of right conduct.
Above verse this person even not a messenger.. Just a believer... But he says FOLLOW ME... Follow what? His way of dressing or his food habit in king pharou palace or his beard? No.. He knows what guidance is through Musa's message.. He is kind enough to teach them to those people.. So he say FOLLOW ME..
Unfortunately these people are blinded not even applying some sense.. Suppose I am a messenger and placed with the message of God... I want to tell people "Obey Allah and follow Me" ... what's wrong in it? Or would I say Obey Allah and follow the Messenger... Lol.. Just use your wits... Allah placed verses perfectly... But for those who twist they find lot to twist as they want. Can't help to mend them.. They are astray...
Thank you
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Salam JKHAN,
I apologize if my previous responses did not fully address your questions. Let me address your concerns directly
Regarding the verses you mentioned, there are different interpretations among scholars regarding the meaning and implications of those verses. While some scholars understand them to mean that the Prophet Muhammad physically wrote down the Quran, others interpret them metaphorically, emphasizing the divine origin and preservation of the Quran. It is a matter of interpretation, and I respect that you have your own viewpoint.
As for the stories not found in the Quran but mentioned in some hadiths, it's important to understand that the hadith literature contains various types of narrations, including historical accounts, explanations of religious practices, and moral lessons. The stories and narratives found in hadiths often serve to provide additional details and context to the teachings of the Quran, as well as to inspire and educate the believers.
It's worth noting that the authenticity and reliability of specific hadiths are subjects of scholarly debate and analysis. Different scholars have applied rigorous methodologies to evaluate the chains of narrators and the content of hadiths. This process helps in distinguishing between more reliable and less reliable narrations.
Regarding your question of where the Prophet Muhammad acquired these stories, it's believed that he received them through divine inspiration and revelation. The Prophet Muhammad had a deep understanding of the Quran and its principles, and he conveyed this understanding to his companions and followers. The stories and teachings found in hadiths were passed down through the generations by the companions and scholars.
I appreciate your dedication to following the Quran, and I respect your perspective. It's important for us to engage in respectful dialogue, seeking knowledge and understanding from different viewpoints. Each person's journey and approach to faith may differ, and it is our responsibility to seek truth and sincerity in our beliefs.
Thank you for expressing your concerns, and I hope this response addresses your questions more directly.
Updated on your reply to GL quoting my text
Thank you for sharing your perspective and providing additional verses for consideration. I understand your point about the obedience and following being directed towards the messengers in those specific instances.
It is important to interpret verses within their respective contexts. The verses you mentioned highlight the obedience and following of the messengers themselves, as they were entrusted with the divine message from Allah. The emphasis is on following the guidance and teachings brought by the messengers rather than their personal appearances or specific practices.
In the case of Prophet Muhammad, Muslims who follow his example and teachings do so with the understanding that he was the final messenger and that his actions and words were guided by Allah. The concept of following his sunnah (the example of his actions and teachings) is rooted in the belief that he was the best exemplar of implementing the principles and teachings of the Quran.
While appearance and personal practices may vary among individuals, the core focus lies in following the principles and values derived from the Quran and the authentic teachings of Prophet Muhammad.
It is important to engage in respectful discussions and understand the various perspectives within the Muslim community. By seeking knowledge and exchanging ideas, we can promote unity and mutual understanding.
Thank you for your contribution to this conversation.
Sincerely,
Fuzion -
Peace GL,
I apologize for any misinterpretation or misunderstanding in my previous responses. Thank you for pointing out the clarification regarding verse 331. You are correct that the word "sunnah" is not explicitly mentioned in that verse. I apologize for the oversight in my previous statement.
I understand that you emphasize the importance of following the Quran alone and relying on God as the ultimate explainer and teacher. I respect your perspective and the verses you have shared. It is important for us to reflect upon and study the Quran, and to seek guidance from God.
In our discussion, I have sought to present a balanced perspective, acknowledging the role of hadiths as a source of additional information and context for the teachings of the Quran. However, I understand and appreciate that you do not consider hadiths as authoritative sources.
I value the meaningful dialogue we have had, and I want to conclude our conversation on a positive note. It is through respectful discussions like these that we can better understand and appreciate different viewpoints within the broader Islamic community.
May God bless you and guide you on your journey of seeking knowledge and understanding.
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Salam JKHAN,
I apologize if my previous responses did not fully address your questions. Let me address your concerns directly
Regarding the verses you mentioned, there are different interpretations among scholars regarding the meaning and implications of those verses. While some scholars understand them to mean that the Prophet Muhammad physically wrote down the Quran, others interpret them metaphorically, emphasizing the divine origin and preservation of the Quran. It is a matter of interpretation, and I respect that you have your own viewpoint.
As for the stories not found in the Quran but mentioned in some hadiths, it's important to understand that the hadith literature contains various types of narrations, including historical accounts, explanations of religious practices, and moral lessons. The stories and narratives found in hadiths often serve to provide additional details and context to the teachings of the Quran, as well as to inspire and educate the believers.
It's worth noting that the authenticity and reliability of specific hadiths are subjects of scholarly debate and analysis. Different scholars have applied rigorous methodologies to evaluate the chains of narrators and the content of hadiths. This process helps in distinguishing between more reliable and less reliable narrations.
Regarding your question of where the Prophet Muhammad acquired these stories, it's believed that he received them through divine inspiration and revelation. The Prophet Muhammad had a deep understanding of the Quran and its principles, and he conveyed this understanding to his companions and followers. The stories and teachings found in hadiths were passed down through the generations by the companions and scholars.
I appreciate your dedication to following the Quran, and I respect your perspective. It's important for us to engage in respectful dialogue, seeking knowledge and understanding from different viewpoints. Each person's journey and approach to faith may differ, and it is our responsibility to seek truth and sincerity in our beliefs.
Thank you for expressing your concerns, and I hope this response addresses your questions more directly.
Updated on your reply to GL quoting my text
Thank you for sharing your perspective and providing additional verses for consideration. I understand your point about the obedience and following being directed towards the messengers in those specific instances.
It is important to interpret verses within their respective contexts. The verses you mentioned highlight the obedience and following of the messengers themselves, as they were entrusted with the divine message from Allah. The emphasis is on following the guidance and teachings brought by the messengers rather than their personal appearances or specific practices.
In the case of Prophet Muhammad, Muslims who follow his example and teachings do so with the understanding that he was the final messenger and that his actions and words were guided by Allah. The concept of following his sunnah (the example of his actions and teachings) is rooted in the belief that he was the best exemplar of implementing the principles and teachings of the Quran.
While appearance and personal practices may vary among individuals, the core focus lies in following the principles and values derived from the Quran and the authentic teachings of Prophet Muhammad.
It is important to engage in respectful discussions and understand the various perspectives within the Muslim community. By seeking knowledge and exchanging ideas, we can promote unity and mutual understanding.
Thank you for your contribution to this conversation.
Sincerely,
FuzionSalam... Well... You don't want to debate but you are wasting my time...
You are repeating again and again saying different interpretations of scholars... Habeebi.... I know interpretations of scholars... I am asking you why you say that Mohamed didn't write quran... What makes you accept interpretations directly... So you don't have any questions to those scholars...
So... It is very obvious that you a blind follower of scholars and you don't have any doubt on them so you trust them... It's fine... Follow them as you like... But when you enter to debate just be transperant and be ready to answer to questions directly. Anyway thank you...@ all hadith followers..
So prophet Mohamed was illiterate and still good enough to teach knowledge and on top of that teach Wisdom to his people... Well that's a strange illiterate person...
I leave with this lovely hadith... I wish your name also in it... Lol
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said "Abu Bakr is in Paradise, 'Umar is in Paradise, 'Uthman is in Paradise, 'Ali is in Paradise, Talhah is in Paradise, Az-Zubair is in Paradise, 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf is in Paradise, Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas is in Paradise, Sa'eed bin Zaid is in Paradise, and Abu 'Ubaidah bin Al-Jarrah is in Paradise."
rotfl rotfl
What... This hadith must have been from a male for sure... That's why I don't see any females name in it.. Unless I got the names wrong.
Well definitely Bible is better... I don't see such a list in it.. rotfl
Thank you for your time... I won't waste my time as well yours... Have a good journey in hadith .. .
After all followers of hadith only can follow hadith not quran... They can't follow both for sure.. I hope you get benefited by following hadith....Note... Why did you lie to me that you follow Quran alone while you communicated to me over whatsapp...? Alhamdullah I am not your friend anymore... Or this is new Fusion.. ..
Anyways... Life is long... God guides whome He wills... Take care...
By the way sorry brother, let me invest my time only with those who follow God's book alone... Time is limited... Better sharing knowledge with believers.... Why not get into some hadith forum, perhaps you will gain more knowledge... -
Dear JKhan,
Regarding the question of whether Prophet Muhammad wrote the Quran, it is a commonly accepted belief among scholars and historians that the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad by Allah over a period of approximately 23 years. The process of revelation involved the angel Gabriel delivering the verses to the Prophet, who then recited them to his companions and instructed them to write them down. The compilation and preservation of the Quran were done under the guidance of the Prophet and his companions.
Scholars have extensively studied the historical accounts, narrations, and manuscripts related to the compilation of the Quran. Their interpretations and analysis of these sources have led to the understanding that the Quran we have today is the same as what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad during his lifetime.
While it is important to question and seek knowledge, it is also essential to rely on scholarly research and the expertise of those who have dedicated their lives to studying and understanding Islamic texts. Engaging with scholars and their interpretations can provide valuable insights and help us develop a deeper understanding of the religion.
Thank you for your time, and I respect your decision to focus your discussions with those who share your perspective.
Take care, and may you find knowledge and guidance in your journey.
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468 Nay! they say He has invented /forged it(Quran). Say If I have invented / forged it, you do not control anything for me from Allah; He knows best what you utter concerning it; He is enough as a witness between me and you, and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
I am addressing all those who follow Quran as source of law... Just reflect well... Those who lived with Prophet Mohamed said in verse 255 that he has WRITTEN DOWN... The same people, his people said in above verse that Mohamed has INVENTED Quran... With anger or joulous feeling one can call Mohamed a fool or liar etc... etc... But how can those who knew him for ages tell him that he INVENTED Quran while they verily knew he was illiterate... Who looks fool of they say so? Is it Mohamed looking fool or those who say he invented quran?
On top of that when they said Mohamed INVENTED quran, Mohamed could have in reply said "How can I INVENT while I am illiterate neither able to write or read?.. Instead Mohamed said something else if you read verse 486 complete you understand...In addition 1113 and 1038 all say Mohamed invented... Are these people making and illiterate person a literate person all of a sudden ? No way... They were not fool to claim such a hefty thing...
For example... If my whole friends knew me from Childhood that I was neither able to read or write, and if I suddenly present a book, would they dare to say, we 100 % sure You INVENTED it.. Come on hadith followers use your wits... Believe it or not.. It is same calling an illiterate to have written a book is like calling a blind from birth, as eyewitness of murder case.. So funny hadith followers... But feeling pity as well... Can't help unless they realise...
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Dear All,
I want to emphasize once again that I am not a follower of hadith exclusively, but rather open to considering various sources in understanding Islam. I approach the subject matter with an open mind and seek knowledge from diverse perspectives.
Sincerely,
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https//youtu.be/lqSLx7Z4r9s
Jay Smith
To Him , "Allah is just a pagan god"https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAxpfs3PRjc
missionary and others at that London park zoo preaching to the ignorant
he bashes hadith gets aroused at hadith cites wife, allat which is refuted6101 بدىع originator السموت the skies والارض and the land انى how ىكون being له to him ولد offspring ولم and not تكن it be له to him صحبه companion his وخلق and creation كل each شى thing وهو and he بكل in every شى thing علىم knower
Matthew is the only people who meet and saw Jesus and wrote his experience / perception on a scroll.
He was a tax collector, well educated and have ample money to bought writing materials (scrolls).Gospels were not written by the apostles or eyewitnesses, explains Rabbi Tovia Singer
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuDfPkI3AAs for the issue of stoning to death for adultery, I agree that it is not mentioned explicitly in the Quran. However, it is worth noting that there are hadith narrations that mention this punishment. It is important to approach this topic with caution and consider that the application of such punishments requires strict conditions and adherence to the principles of justice outlined in the Quran.
burying a woman to her chest after she gives birth then bashing her head with rocks is godless.
likewise misinterpreting women's irregular menses to mean 6 year old girls and marrying them.654 والى and those (feminine pl.) ىىسن despaired من from المحىض the menstruation من from نساىكم womenfolk yours ان if ارتبتم doubts you فعدتهن so number theirs ثلثه trio اشهر lunar cycles والى and those (feminine pl.) لم not ىحضن menstruated ...
46 وابتلوا and test ye of الىتمى the orphans حتى until اذا when of بلغوا reach they of النكح the marriage (age of puberty or maturity) فان so if انستم perceives you منهم of them رشدا rational of فادفعوا so deliver ye of الىهم towards them امولهم wealth (inheritance) theirs ...
ok to suckle grown men; what about female orphans when they reach puberty?
Mohammed Hijab "Refutes" Shaykh Albani
https//youtu.be/x3_hsrWG9co?t=519 -
Comparing which 'idol' is 'better' is an 'ego boosting' endeavor that only boost the 'idolatry' more, perhaps to a level of fanatical attachment. Whatever the format of the idol is; holy book, figure/prophet, religion, holy places.
That's actually the pattern that I'm talking about.
- Bible is the only book written by God, no no no Quran is the only book written by God.
- Those who do not believe in Jesus will be tormented in Hell! no no no those who do not believe in Muhammad will be tormented in Hell!
- Jesus is the only salvation! no no no Muhammad is the only salvation!
- There's no more revelation, Jesus is the last prophet! no no no Muhammad is the last prophet!
Through that series of 'debate' slowly but sure the 'new religion is formed and then called Islam' while at the core concept it's the essentially the same.
As thus I labeled the religion of Islam as Christianity 2.0.
And since Christianity was formed through the same process I labeled Christianity as Judaism 2.0 thus Islam as Judaism 3.0Having said that; if one truly seek the simplest and most eloquent description on the attitude of islam (no relation with the religion of Islam or Christianity) then one can find it on the Gospel.
"Let Your Will be done, on earth as it's in heaven"
-- Matthew 6It's your own attitude and character that matter, not your religion or which book/places/figure that you considered as holy.
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Dear Jafar,
Thank you for sharing your perspective on the subject of the superiority of religious books. I appreciate your thoughts and the historical context you provided. However, I'd like to present a different viewpoint in this debate.
While it is true that all books can be seen as products of God's creation, it does not necessarily imply that they are all on an equal footing when it comes to their spiritual or moral authority. Different religious traditions claim the divine origin of their respective scriptures, such as the Bible, the Quran, and others. It is through these texts that believers seek guidance, wisdom, and a deeper understanding of their faith.
You argue that the concept of superiority arose from a desire for control and power within certain groups. While it is important to acknowledge historical contexts and the influence of power dynamics, it does not negate the possibility that certain religious texts contain profound spiritual truths that resonate with their followers.
Regarding your observation of a repeating pattern in the formation of new religions, it is true that there have been developments and adaptations throughout history. However, it is essential to recognize that these religious evolutions often emerge from unique socio-cultural contexts and the quest for spiritual growth.
You mention the question of why Jesus, John, or Muhammad did not personally write down their teachings. It is worth noting that the transmission of religious teachings and experiences does not solely rely on written documents. In many faith traditions, oral transmission and personal encounters play a vital role in conveying the message of spirituality. The absence of personal writings does not diminish the significance of their teachings or the impact they have had on millions of lives.
You rightly emphasize the importance of seeking and asking for divine guidance. This principle resonates across different religions, as believers strive to connect with the divine through various means, including prayer, meditation, and personal reflection. It is through this personal relationship with the divine that individuals can find their own path to spiritual enlightenment.
While it is true that some individuals may develop an excessive attachment or idolatrous attitude towards religious texts, figures, or institutions, it is crucial to remember that the core essence of faith lies in one's character, attitude, and personal relationship with the divine. The true value of any religious text or figure lies in their ability to inspire individuals to lead a life of compassion, love, and righteousness.
In conclusion, the question of which religious book is "better" should not solely be approached from a perspective of idolatry or fanaticism. Instead, it is important to recognize the unique contributions and spiritual guidance that different religious texts offer to their respective communities. Ultimately, it is an individual's attitude, character, and personal relationship with the divine that matter the most, transcending any particular religious tradition or holy book.
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I concur with the majority of your statements, I will only then comments on few of those.
While it is true that all books can be seen as products of God's creation,
All is God's creation, given the core concept is actually there is only one Creator.
One then should ponder "Why there is only one?"
For this specific question there's another thread on this forum about "Infinity".There are trillion of galaxies in this universe alone, where each galaxy contains billions of stars.
The story of this universe doesn't start with human or earth and will not end with human or earth.
And there are multiple universe as well to add more to the complexity of "all creations" created by one creatorit does not necessarily imply that they are all on an equal footing when it comes to their spiritual or moral authority. Different religious traditions claim the divine origin of their respective scriptures, such as the Bible, the Quran, and others. It is through these texts that believers seek guidance, wisdom, and a deeper understanding of their faith.
What is your definition of "divine"? and how can a thing be "more divine" than the others? (thus less divine)
And there are period where even text or scripture was not yet even invented.
From "where" then soul on those period should seek their guidance?Then add that to the fact that literacy rate among human throughout the majority of their history was quite low.
And the majority of the figures on the book that you mentioned was not written by it's figure.Specifically since the context of this thread is about Jesus;
In time of Jesus literacy rate was lower than 10%.Jesus never wrote any book although he certainly can read and write in Hebrew and Aramaic.
From where did Jesus received his guidance?
Only Torah scrolls? The scrolls compiled by religious authority of his time?
Read the Gospel and it's the content of the Torah where he had trouble with in the first place and triggered his own seeking.that the concept of superiority arose from a desire for control and power within certain groups
Concur... and religion is the tool to achieve control and power over a society.
Observe how Jesus did not invent any religion, the religion of Christianity was not invented by Jesus, thus Jesus is not even a Christian. This fact sometimes caused logical dissonance among some people.
The reason being control and power is not the goal or desire of Jesus during his lifetime on earth.it does not negate the possibility that certain religious texts contain profound spiritual truths that resonate with their followers.
Yes and falsehood as well, it's a mixed bag, as can be derived from Jesus experience.
Having said that truth will not exist when it's opposite; falsehood does not exist.
Thus strengthening one's 'discretion capability' is actually the goal, and that can only be achieved by exposure to the falsehood. Through this way; falsehood can act as guidance towards truth. By knowing the "is not" one will then found the "is".You mention the question of why Jesus, John, or Muhammad did not personally write down their teachings. It is worth noting that the transmission of religious teachings and experiences does not solely rely on written documents. In many faith traditions, oral transmission and personal encounters play a vital role in conveying the message of spirituality.
Concur, and I've added the fact about literacy rate above to support this.
And it's important to note your statement of 'conveying the message of spirituality' and 'not religion'.You rightly emphasize the importance of seeking and asking for divine guidance.
Yes, this is the most important message.
Because it's always available to all, regardless of which galaxies, stars or planets, let alone 'social identity' such as religion.Yet religion state that 'revelation has ended' and only available through their artifacts as an effort to obtain control and power. The Jesus story is an example of how a soul named Jesus proved such statement as falsehood and that's actually one of Jesus core message.
Seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given.
Stating that each of you has a direct relationship with something that he named as "Father in Heaven".In conclusion, the question of which religious book is "better" should not solely be approached from a perspective of idolatry or fanaticism.
It's important to also note that in order for a thing to be 'better' then it's opposite 'lesser' need to also exist.
When one start to claim that "A" is better, on any context, then one must view and proved that "Other than A" are lesser in comparation to "A".
This "A" can be anything, ranging from nationality, races, religion, holy book, holy places, figure or even as menial as football club.At first; this view seems to be innocent, but it's the gateway that opened the door towards fanaticism.
And it's an expression of pride.
As they say pride came before the fall.It's the reason why for example in today's Germany they banned the "Deutschland uber alles" part from their national anthem. As they've learned, through the hard way, where does this "uber alles" attitude will lead.
The true value of any religious text or figure lies in their ability to inspire individuals to lead a life of compassion, love, and righteousness.
Concur..
Yet it's important to note that many religious texts was compiled as a mean to obtain power and control by political authority. (Kingdom, Empire, Caliphate et. al.)Thus I better rephrased and add your statement above to be
The true value of your lifetime on earth lies on how you can live your life expressing humility, compassion, love and righteousness.Actually not only on earth; on any planets or galaxies or realm is also the same.
Yet in order for humility, compassion, love and righteousness to be recognizable and exist; it's opposite also need to exist (pride, revenge, hatred and wickedness).
As said by Jesus
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
-- Matthew 6 -
Yes and falsehood as well, it's a mixed bag, as can be derived from Jesus experience.
Having said that truth will not exist when it's opposite; falsehood does not exist.
Thus strengthening one's 'discretion capability' is actually the goal, and that can only be achieved by exposure to the falsehood. Through this way; falsehood can act as guidance towards truth. By knowing the "is not" one will then found the "is".Good day to you... Peace..
You are blinded in no man's land..
IS NOT is nothing without IS... why don't you understand this simple phenomena... I have explained to you in the past but you are deluded with your flimsy logic... Let me explain again...
EXISTENCE is key... with existence only we as human perceive... None existence is immaterial... Coz no point of talking about that doesn't exist... But Ghaib (exist) but not within our knowledge is different... But here I take EXISTENCE and its opposite NON-EXISTENCE..So... Brother.. IS NOT cannot come into picture without IS first.. IS NOT is void.. Nothing to be mentiond without IS.. Do you copy that? Reflect.. No one can find IS NOT to know IS..
As you say, FALSEHOOD is showing the path to TRUTH.. No way...
Do you recollect we argued about good and bad.. You keep saying bad should exist to know good... It is the weak assumption of people... Good is what is good and not necessary the bad to exist to perceive what good is. . For example you don't need a dilapidated house to know a good looking house.. Human has capacity to imagine... That's so inate capacity... Now I am not gonna talk about good and bad but IS and IS NOT..
so.. Try to grasp.. What exists is in fact IS... and there is nothing called IS NOT without IS.. IS NOT cannot come into spotlight... What is indeed IS NOT? Answer to me you or anyone.. What is "IS NOT ".. ?
You can't answer... Unless without logic..
Similarly.. Falsehood doesn't exist... Never... God created everything with truth... God created human as well with truth... Free will as well... To think on his own way with absolute freedom...
But this disobeying human cannot accept God's truth, so with his freedom chooses against truth... So going against truth... So note carefully TRUTH does exist so making the truth weaker by making it crooked and there comes falsehood... Literally FALSEHOOD doesn't exist and cannot exist without TRUTH in the first place.. So simple to perceive but your knowledge is weak so you are not coming out of conventional pattern of thinking...
So EXISTENCE is pivotal... There is nothing called NON-EXISTENCE ....So even to respond to your BETTER THAN issue... I can use the same EXISTENCE.. When things exist there is always something that is better or something weaker... That's why we use comparative or superlative in positive or negative aspects... To do all these existence is key...
For example if I say stealing is not good then in the first place truth should exist to claim stealing /theft not good.. But you are claiming theft should exist to know truth of being without stealing.. You don't need a cavity tooth to know strong perfect tooth... Evil is not required to know good...So.. In a nutshell...IS NOT is a byproduct of IS.. For example.. If I say.. I have no money (IS NOT) ... is not makes sense if money EXIST in the first place..
Failing to grasp this simple logic is pretty weird.. Absolutely nonsensical...
No god but God.. La ilaha illa Allah...
No god... IS NOT is nothing.. You can't find anywhere that no god.. But God.. IS.. you can't approach the God from No god. ..but approach God coz He exists..Now everyone who has intellect understands how weak your statement is unless everyone fails to grasp this manifest truth...
Thank you all..
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@jkhan
I do know your objective is "To Win", based on your answer in other thread in this forum.
In order for you "To Win" somebody else need to "Not Win" a.k.a "To Lose".
Otherwise "Win" will not exist when it's opposite "Lose" does not exist.Thus in order for you to achieve your objective, you need to make me (and others) "Lose".
I truly understand that.Again citing Jesus.
"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
-- Matt 23 -
@jkhan
I do know your objective is "To Win", based on your answer in other thread in this forum.
In order for you "To Win" somebody else need to "Not Win" a.k.a "To Lose".
Otherwise "Win" will not exist when it's opposite "Lose" does not exist.Thus in order for you to achieve your objective, you need to make me (and others) "Lose".
I truly understand that.Again citing Jesus.
"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
-- Matt 23It is obvious you have realized something out of my last thread....
See... Even to win it lose the truth should exist... The one who speaks the truth is always victorious regardless what others perceive... Loss is byproduct of Win..
Realize that pls...
You are like... When one was told fund out which one is Diamond out these two... Then one needs to research the characteristics of diamond... Then only they will know which one is diamond... If means IS of diamond..
Or else... Find out whether this body dead or alive. So find out characteristics of live body... So IS is the factor.. IS NOT never exists in anything coz that's how it is.. IS NOT is an expectations in something that exists...
I don't want to win agaisnt you... I want to present truth and let those who read reflect... My satisfaction is not in winning against people like you... My satisfaction is looking at every truth under microscope... Truth prevails though falsehood which invented looks fancy...
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Hey Jafar and Jkhan,
Thanks a bunch for sharing your thoughts in this discussion. It's clear that you both have different takes on the whole winning and truth-seeking thing. I reckon finding common ground and understanding each other is key in conversations like this.
Jafar, you make a good point about how a win/lose mindset can have some consequences, and you bring up the importance of humility, drawing inspiration from Jesus' quote. You see it as someone needing to lose for someone else to win, which is often how we see competition.
Jkhan, your response puts the spotlight on truth and how speaking the truth is a victory in itself. You stress the importance of seeking truth in our discussions and how winning or losing should take a back seat to uncovering and presenting the truth.
Considering these different viewpoints, I want to encourage both of you to think about how seeking truth and understanding can be a team effort rather than a competition. We can engage in a respectful dialogue where we explore different perspectives, aiming to deepen our understanding together rather than trying to defeat one another.
Jafar, I really appreciate that you value presenting truth and allowing for reflection. Keep sharing your insights and stay open to finding common ground with others.
Jkhan, I admire your dedication to seeking truth and your focus on presenting it under scrutiny. I invite you to consider that engaging with different perspectives can broaden our understanding and lead us to a more comprehensive truth.
Let's keep this conversation going with respect and an open mind, creating an environment where diverse viewpoints can coexist and contribute to our collective search for truth.
Thank you
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Peace...
6710 "They will further say "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!""
All I have to say is... Life is for testing and the life span is limited and no one knows when it ends... Living a life long in confusion is not answer... One should realize the truth by listening to those who have right logic through Quran or else they should use their intelligence and perceive truth.. Failing to do both is the destiny of Hell fire sadly as the above verse in black and white exposes to us....
What I see in both of you is you have no constant approach but you love dilemma rather than living in truth. . That's obvious by innormous appreciations that both of you share in common...
Ensure dudes that you have chosen a path and on it you are constant with your logic and God gifted knowledge... Don't waste your own knowledge at the expense of fancy hearsays of others....
Life is not a debate field to ever argue and no conclusion...but at certain point of early life one should decide a natter and be constant on... Wavering here and there and die won't make sense...Thank you... Your life your journey... Quran covers truth, you discover them.. That's victory...
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Thank you Jkhan, for sharing your thoughts once again. I understand that you hold a strong belief in the importance of seeking truth and following a consistent path. However, I would like to respectfully point out that it is not accurate to judge someone's approach or character based solely on a few interactions or observations.
While we may have different perspectives and engage in discussions, it is essential to remember that meaningful debates require open-mindedness, respectful dialogue, and a willingness to consider different viewpoints. It is through such exchanges that we can broaden our understanding and potentially arrive at new insights.
I appreciate your passion for the Quran and your belief in the importance of discovering truth. However, it is important to acknowledge that interpreting religious texts, including the Quran, can vary among individuals. Therefore, it is not appropriate to pass final verdicts or judge others solely based on our personal interpretations.
Let us continue our conversations with an open mind and a genuine desire to explore different ideas. Through respectful discourse, we may find common ground or deepen our understanding of diverse perspectives.
Thank you for your understanding and willingness to engage in meaningful discussions.
