Isn't the Bible better...
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Dear JKhan,
Regarding the question of whether Prophet Muhammad wrote the Quran, it is a commonly accepted belief among scholars and historians that the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad by Allah over a period of approximately 23 years. The process of revelation involved the angel Gabriel delivering the verses to the Prophet, who then recited them to his companions and instructed them to write them down. The compilation and preservation of the Quran were done under the guidance of the Prophet and his companions.
Scholars have extensively studied the historical accounts, narrations, and manuscripts related to the compilation of the Quran. Their interpretations and analysis of these sources have led to the understanding that the Quran we have today is the same as what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad during his lifetime.
While it is important to question and seek knowledge, it is also essential to rely on scholarly research and the expertise of those who have dedicated their lives to studying and understanding Islamic texts. Engaging with scholars and their interpretations can provide valuable insights and help us develop a deeper understanding of the religion.
Thank you for your time, and I respect your decision to focus your discussions with those who share your perspective.
Take care, and may you find knowledge and guidance in your journey.
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468 Nay! they say He has invented /forged it(Quran). Say If I have invented / forged it, you do not control anything for me from Allah; He knows best what you utter concerning it; He is enough as a witness between me and you, and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
I am addressing all those who follow Quran as source of law... Just reflect well... Those who lived with Prophet Mohamed said in verse 255 that he has WRITTEN DOWN... The same people, his people said in above verse that Mohamed has INVENTED Quran... With anger or joulous feeling one can call Mohamed a fool or liar etc... etc... But how can those who knew him for ages tell him that he INVENTED Quran while they verily knew he was illiterate... Who looks fool of they say so? Is it Mohamed looking fool or those who say he invented quran?
On top of that when they said Mohamed INVENTED quran, Mohamed could have in reply said "How can I INVENT while I am illiterate neither able to write or read?.. Instead Mohamed said something else if you read verse 486 complete you understand...In addition 1113 and 1038 all say Mohamed invented... Are these people making and illiterate person a literate person all of a sudden ? No way... They were not fool to claim such a hefty thing...
For example... If my whole friends knew me from Childhood that I was neither able to read or write, and if I suddenly present a book, would they dare to say, we 100 % sure You INVENTED it.. Come on hadith followers use your wits... Believe it or not.. It is same calling an illiterate to have written a book is like calling a blind from birth, as eyewitness of murder case.. So funny hadith followers... But feeling pity as well... Can't help unless they realise...
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Dear All,
I want to emphasize once again that I am not a follower of hadith exclusively, but rather open to considering various sources in understanding Islam. I approach the subject matter with an open mind and seek knowledge from diverse perspectives.
Sincerely,
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https//youtu.be/lqSLx7Z4r9s
Jay Smith
To Him , "Allah is just a pagan god"https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAxpfs3PRjc
missionary and others at that London park zoo preaching to the ignorant
he bashes hadith gets aroused at hadith cites wife, allat which is refuted6101 بدىع originator السموت the skies والارض and the land انى how ىكون being له to him ولد offspring ولم and not تكن it be له to him صحبه companion his وخلق and creation كل each شى thing وهو and he بكل in every شى thing علىم knower
Matthew is the only people who meet and saw Jesus and wrote his experience / perception on a scroll.
He was a tax collector, well educated and have ample money to bought writing materials (scrolls).Gospels were not written by the apostles or eyewitnesses, explains Rabbi Tovia Singer
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuDfPkI3AAs for the issue of stoning to death for adultery, I agree that it is not mentioned explicitly in the Quran. However, it is worth noting that there are hadith narrations that mention this punishment. It is important to approach this topic with caution and consider that the application of such punishments requires strict conditions and adherence to the principles of justice outlined in the Quran.
burying a woman to her chest after she gives birth then bashing her head with rocks is godless.
likewise misinterpreting women's irregular menses to mean 6 year old girls and marrying them.654 والى and those (feminine pl.) ىىسن despaired من from المحىض the menstruation من from نساىكم womenfolk yours ان if ارتبتم doubts you فعدتهن so number theirs ثلثه trio اشهر lunar cycles والى and those (feminine pl.) لم not ىحضن menstruated ...
46 وابتلوا and test ye of الىتمى the orphans حتى until اذا when of بلغوا reach they of النكح the marriage (age of puberty or maturity) فان so if انستم perceives you منهم of them رشدا rational of فادفعوا so deliver ye of الىهم towards them امولهم wealth (inheritance) theirs ...
ok to suckle grown men; what about female orphans when they reach puberty?
Mohammed Hijab "Refutes" Shaykh Albani
https//youtu.be/x3_hsrWG9co?t=519 -
Comparing which 'idol' is 'better' is an 'ego boosting' endeavor that only boost the 'idolatry' more, perhaps to a level of fanatical attachment. Whatever the format of the idol is; holy book, figure/prophet, religion, holy places.
That's actually the pattern that I'm talking about.
- Bible is the only book written by God, no no no Quran is the only book written by God.
- Those who do not believe in Jesus will be tormented in Hell! no no no those who do not believe in Muhammad will be tormented in Hell!
- Jesus is the only salvation! no no no Muhammad is the only salvation!
- There's no more revelation, Jesus is the last prophet! no no no Muhammad is the last prophet!
Through that series of 'debate' slowly but sure the 'new religion is formed and then called Islam' while at the core concept it's the essentially the same.
As thus I labeled the religion of Islam as Christianity 2.0.
And since Christianity was formed through the same process I labeled Christianity as Judaism 2.0 thus Islam as Judaism 3.0Having said that; if one truly seek the simplest and most eloquent description on the attitude of islam (no relation with the religion of Islam or Christianity) then one can find it on the Gospel.
"Let Your Will be done, on earth as it's in heaven"
-- Matthew 6It's your own attitude and character that matter, not your religion or which book/places/figure that you considered as holy.
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Dear Jafar,
Thank you for sharing your perspective on the subject of the superiority of religious books. I appreciate your thoughts and the historical context you provided. However, I'd like to present a different viewpoint in this debate.
While it is true that all books can be seen as products of God's creation, it does not necessarily imply that they are all on an equal footing when it comes to their spiritual or moral authority. Different religious traditions claim the divine origin of their respective scriptures, such as the Bible, the Quran, and others. It is through these texts that believers seek guidance, wisdom, and a deeper understanding of their faith.
You argue that the concept of superiority arose from a desire for control and power within certain groups. While it is important to acknowledge historical contexts and the influence of power dynamics, it does not negate the possibility that certain religious texts contain profound spiritual truths that resonate with their followers.
Regarding your observation of a repeating pattern in the formation of new religions, it is true that there have been developments and adaptations throughout history. However, it is essential to recognize that these religious evolutions often emerge from unique socio-cultural contexts and the quest for spiritual growth.
You mention the question of why Jesus, John, or Muhammad did not personally write down their teachings. It is worth noting that the transmission of religious teachings and experiences does not solely rely on written documents. In many faith traditions, oral transmission and personal encounters play a vital role in conveying the message of spirituality. The absence of personal writings does not diminish the significance of their teachings or the impact they have had on millions of lives.
You rightly emphasize the importance of seeking and asking for divine guidance. This principle resonates across different religions, as believers strive to connect with the divine through various means, including prayer, meditation, and personal reflection. It is through this personal relationship with the divine that individuals can find their own path to spiritual enlightenment.
While it is true that some individuals may develop an excessive attachment or idolatrous attitude towards religious texts, figures, or institutions, it is crucial to remember that the core essence of faith lies in one's character, attitude, and personal relationship with the divine. The true value of any religious text or figure lies in their ability to inspire individuals to lead a life of compassion, love, and righteousness.
In conclusion, the question of which religious book is "better" should not solely be approached from a perspective of idolatry or fanaticism. Instead, it is important to recognize the unique contributions and spiritual guidance that different religious texts offer to their respective communities. Ultimately, it is an individual's attitude, character, and personal relationship with the divine that matter the most, transcending any particular religious tradition or holy book.
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I concur with the majority of your statements, I will only then comments on few of those.
While it is true that all books can be seen as products of God's creation,
All is God's creation, given the core concept is actually there is only one Creator.
One then should ponder "Why there is only one?"
For this specific question there's another thread on this forum about "Infinity".There are trillion of galaxies in this universe alone, where each galaxy contains billions of stars.
The story of this universe doesn't start with human or earth and will not end with human or earth.
And there are multiple universe as well to add more to the complexity of "all creations" created by one creatorit does not necessarily imply that they are all on an equal footing when it comes to their spiritual or moral authority. Different religious traditions claim the divine origin of their respective scriptures, such as the Bible, the Quran, and others. It is through these texts that believers seek guidance, wisdom, and a deeper understanding of their faith.
What is your definition of "divine"? and how can a thing be "more divine" than the others? (thus less divine)
And there are period where even text or scripture was not yet even invented.
From "where" then soul on those period should seek their guidance?Then add that to the fact that literacy rate among human throughout the majority of their history was quite low.
And the majority of the figures on the book that you mentioned was not written by it's figure.Specifically since the context of this thread is about Jesus;
In time of Jesus literacy rate was lower than 10%.Jesus never wrote any book although he certainly can read and write in Hebrew and Aramaic.
From where did Jesus received his guidance?
Only Torah scrolls? The scrolls compiled by religious authority of his time?
Read the Gospel and it's the content of the Torah where he had trouble with in the first place and triggered his own seeking.that the concept of superiority arose from a desire for control and power within certain groups
Concur... and religion is the tool to achieve control and power over a society.
Observe how Jesus did not invent any religion, the religion of Christianity was not invented by Jesus, thus Jesus is not even a Christian. This fact sometimes caused logical dissonance among some people.
The reason being control and power is not the goal or desire of Jesus during his lifetime on earth.it does not negate the possibility that certain religious texts contain profound spiritual truths that resonate with their followers.
Yes and falsehood as well, it's a mixed bag, as can be derived from Jesus experience.
Having said that truth will not exist when it's opposite; falsehood does not exist.
Thus strengthening one's 'discretion capability' is actually the goal, and that can only be achieved by exposure to the falsehood. Through this way; falsehood can act as guidance towards truth. By knowing the "is not" one will then found the "is".You mention the question of why Jesus, John, or Muhammad did not personally write down their teachings. It is worth noting that the transmission of religious teachings and experiences does not solely rely on written documents. In many faith traditions, oral transmission and personal encounters play a vital role in conveying the message of spirituality.
Concur, and I've added the fact about literacy rate above to support this.
And it's important to note your statement of 'conveying the message of spirituality' and 'not religion'.You rightly emphasize the importance of seeking and asking for divine guidance.
Yes, this is the most important message.
Because it's always available to all, regardless of which galaxies, stars or planets, let alone 'social identity' such as religion.Yet religion state that 'revelation has ended' and only available through their artifacts as an effort to obtain control and power. The Jesus story is an example of how a soul named Jesus proved such statement as falsehood and that's actually one of Jesus core message.
Seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given.
Stating that each of you has a direct relationship with something that he named as "Father in Heaven".In conclusion, the question of which religious book is "better" should not solely be approached from a perspective of idolatry or fanaticism.
It's important to also note that in order for a thing to be 'better' then it's opposite 'lesser' need to also exist.
When one start to claim that "A" is better, on any context, then one must view and proved that "Other than A" are lesser in comparation to "A".
This "A" can be anything, ranging from nationality, races, religion, holy book, holy places, figure or even as menial as football club.At first; this view seems to be innocent, but it's the gateway that opened the door towards fanaticism.
And it's an expression of pride.
As they say pride came before the fall.It's the reason why for example in today's Germany they banned the "Deutschland uber alles" part from their national anthem. As they've learned, through the hard way, where does this "uber alles" attitude will lead.
The true value of any religious text or figure lies in their ability to inspire individuals to lead a life of compassion, love, and righteousness.
Concur..
Yet it's important to note that many religious texts was compiled as a mean to obtain power and control by political authority. (Kingdom, Empire, Caliphate et. al.)Thus I better rephrased and add your statement above to be
The true value of your lifetime on earth lies on how you can live your life expressing humility, compassion, love and righteousness.Actually not only on earth; on any planets or galaxies or realm is also the same.
Yet in order for humility, compassion, love and righteousness to be recognizable and exist; it's opposite also need to exist (pride, revenge, hatred and wickedness).
As said by Jesus
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
-- Matthew 6 -
Yes and falsehood as well, it's a mixed bag, as can be derived from Jesus experience.
Having said that truth will not exist when it's opposite; falsehood does not exist.
Thus strengthening one's 'discretion capability' is actually the goal, and that can only be achieved by exposure to the falsehood. Through this way; falsehood can act as guidance towards truth. By knowing the "is not" one will then found the "is".Good day to you... Peace..
You are blinded in no man's land..
IS NOT is nothing without IS... why don't you understand this simple phenomena... I have explained to you in the past but you are deluded with your flimsy logic... Let me explain again...
EXISTENCE is key... with existence only we as human perceive... None existence is immaterial... Coz no point of talking about that doesn't exist... But Ghaib (exist) but not within our knowledge is different... But here I take EXISTENCE and its opposite NON-EXISTENCE..So... Brother.. IS NOT cannot come into picture without IS first.. IS NOT is void.. Nothing to be mentiond without IS.. Do you copy that? Reflect.. No one can find IS NOT to know IS..
As you say, FALSEHOOD is showing the path to TRUTH.. No way...
Do you recollect we argued about good and bad.. You keep saying bad should exist to know good... It is the weak assumption of people... Good is what is good and not necessary the bad to exist to perceive what good is. . For example you don't need a dilapidated house to know a good looking house.. Human has capacity to imagine... That's so inate capacity... Now I am not gonna talk about good and bad but IS and IS NOT..
so.. Try to grasp.. What exists is in fact IS... and there is nothing called IS NOT without IS.. IS NOT cannot come into spotlight... What is indeed IS NOT? Answer to me you or anyone.. What is "IS NOT ".. ?
You can't answer... Unless without logic..
Similarly.. Falsehood doesn't exist... Never... God created everything with truth... God created human as well with truth... Free will as well... To think on his own way with absolute freedom...
But this disobeying human cannot accept God's truth, so with his freedom chooses against truth... So going against truth... So note carefully TRUTH does exist so making the truth weaker by making it crooked and there comes falsehood... Literally FALSEHOOD doesn't exist and cannot exist without TRUTH in the first place.. So simple to perceive but your knowledge is weak so you are not coming out of conventional pattern of thinking...
So EXISTENCE is pivotal... There is nothing called NON-EXISTENCE ....So even to respond to your BETTER THAN issue... I can use the same EXISTENCE.. When things exist there is always something that is better or something weaker... That's why we use comparative or superlative in positive or negative aspects... To do all these existence is key...
For example if I say stealing is not good then in the first place truth should exist to claim stealing /theft not good.. But you are claiming theft should exist to know truth of being without stealing.. You don't need a cavity tooth to know strong perfect tooth... Evil is not required to know good...So.. In a nutshell...IS NOT is a byproduct of IS.. For example.. If I say.. I have no money (IS NOT) ... is not makes sense if money EXIST in the first place..
Failing to grasp this simple logic is pretty weird.. Absolutely nonsensical...
No god but God.. La ilaha illa Allah...
No god... IS NOT is nothing.. You can't find anywhere that no god.. But God.. IS.. you can't approach the God from No god. ..but approach God coz He exists..Now everyone who has intellect understands how weak your statement is unless everyone fails to grasp this manifest truth...
Thank you all..
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@jkhan
I do know your objective is "To Win", based on your answer in other thread in this forum.
In order for you "To Win" somebody else need to "Not Win" a.k.a "To Lose".
Otherwise "Win" will not exist when it's opposite "Lose" does not exist.Thus in order for you to achieve your objective, you need to make me (and others) "Lose".
I truly understand that.Again citing Jesus.
"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
-- Matt 23 -
@jkhan
I do know your objective is "To Win", based on your answer in other thread in this forum.
In order for you "To Win" somebody else need to "Not Win" a.k.a "To Lose".
Otherwise "Win" will not exist when it's opposite "Lose" does not exist.Thus in order for you to achieve your objective, you need to make me (and others) "Lose".
I truly understand that.Again citing Jesus.
"For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
-- Matt 23It is obvious you have realized something out of my last thread....
See... Even to win it lose the truth should exist... The one who speaks the truth is always victorious regardless what others perceive... Loss is byproduct of Win..
Realize that pls...
You are like... When one was told fund out which one is Diamond out these two... Then one needs to research the characteristics of diamond... Then only they will know which one is diamond... If means IS of diamond..
Or else... Find out whether this body dead or alive. So find out characteristics of live body... So IS is the factor.. IS NOT never exists in anything coz that's how it is.. IS NOT is an expectations in something that exists...
I don't want to win agaisnt you... I want to present truth and let those who read reflect... My satisfaction is not in winning against people like you... My satisfaction is looking at every truth under microscope... Truth prevails though falsehood which invented looks fancy...
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Hey Jafar and Jkhan,
Thanks a bunch for sharing your thoughts in this discussion. It's clear that you both have different takes on the whole winning and truth-seeking thing. I reckon finding common ground and understanding each other is key in conversations like this.
Jafar, you make a good point about how a win/lose mindset can have some consequences, and you bring up the importance of humility, drawing inspiration from Jesus' quote. You see it as someone needing to lose for someone else to win, which is often how we see competition.
Jkhan, your response puts the spotlight on truth and how speaking the truth is a victory in itself. You stress the importance of seeking truth in our discussions and how winning or losing should take a back seat to uncovering and presenting the truth.
Considering these different viewpoints, I want to encourage both of you to think about how seeking truth and understanding can be a team effort rather than a competition. We can engage in a respectful dialogue where we explore different perspectives, aiming to deepen our understanding together rather than trying to defeat one another.
Jafar, I really appreciate that you value presenting truth and allowing for reflection. Keep sharing your insights and stay open to finding common ground with others.
Jkhan, I admire your dedication to seeking truth and your focus on presenting it under scrutiny. I invite you to consider that engaging with different perspectives can broaden our understanding and lead us to a more comprehensive truth.
Let's keep this conversation going with respect and an open mind, creating an environment where diverse viewpoints can coexist and contribute to our collective search for truth.
Thank you
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Peace...
6710 "They will further say "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!""
All I have to say is... Life is for testing and the life span is limited and no one knows when it ends... Living a life long in confusion is not answer... One should realize the truth by listening to those who have right logic through Quran or else they should use their intelligence and perceive truth.. Failing to do both is the destiny of Hell fire sadly as the above verse in black and white exposes to us....
What I see in both of you is you have no constant approach but you love dilemma rather than living in truth. . That's obvious by innormous appreciations that both of you share in common...
Ensure dudes that you have chosen a path and on it you are constant with your logic and God gifted knowledge... Don't waste your own knowledge at the expense of fancy hearsays of others....
Life is not a debate field to ever argue and no conclusion...but at certain point of early life one should decide a natter and be constant on... Wavering here and there and die won't make sense...Thank you... Your life your journey... Quran covers truth, you discover them.. That's victory...
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Thank you Jkhan, for sharing your thoughts once again. I understand that you hold a strong belief in the importance of seeking truth and following a consistent path. However, I would like to respectfully point out that it is not accurate to judge someone's approach or character based solely on a few interactions or observations.
While we may have different perspectives and engage in discussions, it is essential to remember that meaningful debates require open-mindedness, respectful dialogue, and a willingness to consider different viewpoints. It is through such exchanges that we can broaden our understanding and potentially arrive at new insights.
I appreciate your passion for the Quran and your belief in the importance of discovering truth. However, it is important to acknowledge that interpreting religious texts, including the Quran, can vary among individuals. Therefore, it is not appropriate to pass final verdicts or judge others solely based on our personal interpretations.
Let us continue our conversations with an open mind and a genuine desire to explore different ideas. Through respectful discourse, we may find common ground or deepen our understanding of diverse perspectives.
Thank you for your understanding and willingness to engage in meaningful discussions.
