Are we true believers!
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Coz you know Sunni Muslims would say they are true believers and they are convinced what they do is right.. But not in our eyes unfortunately coz we see the characteristics... So we don't judge.. Let God judge who they are.
I judge nobody
Our final destination (i.e. hell or paradise) no one knows except Allah
I just gave a list of signs accompany true believers according to the Quran verses
And it applies to all the people (sunni, shia, quranist, etc.) who take the Quran as their guidance.Note The main purpose of this thread is to remind Quran followers including me, that whoever we are viz. prominent scholars, good debaters, ulamas, etc. we are nowhere if all the signs in verses 82, 1062 and 7430-31 fail to accompany us in this worldly life. We have not yet met the Quranic benchmark of true believers.
Thank you.
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we are nowhere if all the signs in verses 82, 1062 and 7430-31 fail to accompany us in this worldly life. We have not yet met the Quranic benchmark of true believers.
I am afraid your statement so heavy... I don't understand why only these three verses and these particular characteristics decide a true believer and why these three verses be taken as benchmark to recognise the self as TRUE believers...
Or do I not somehow unable to fathom you out.. Believer have or for that matter should have numerous traits which are leading to main their faith... But why these three I don't quite get you...Do you think one can be a even a believer, true believer whatsoever if he doesn't do charity enough though he has wealth beyond his actual needs? Isn't this a Quranic benchmark of believers..?
Quran says believed are those and states some of the characters of theirs in chapter 231-10 ...Does that mean that they are all what a believer should have?I have no objection, no complaints over you but I don't understand why only these verses be benchmark? Suppose one doesn't have what above verses say to a level one could cultivate but he may have sat better characteristics of believers in other aspects.. For example never ever lool at woman who doesn't belong to him in lust... Never ever say a lie... Never every break a promise.. Never ever miss to remember God.. Never ever abuse parents... Never ever chase a muslin when he begs for food... Etc etc.. Loads of them... But why these verses alone..
Chapter 74 verses honestly I don't get increased my faith by reading the mere verse until I came to know about numeric pattern of Quran.. So.. We can't blame anyone on that until he knows about it..Heart tremble verses... Honestly for my self and ask all you believers, do your hearts tremble while reading all the verses of Quran or some very specific verses of Quran? Trust me honestly my hearts get melt when I read certain verses even if I have read it 100 times before... I weep and stop reading.. But some verses when I read I have a smile.. Some verses I read i spend hours on it.. And some verses i read I get angry on some people.. And when I read some verses I feel pity for others.. Well.. I don't know I over react here.. I don't know how even we judge our self with only few verses of Quran our true belief.. But I think all characteristics should be equally taken into consideration to evaluate the self where we stand to ask Are we true believers?
I don't know I may be completly wrong when you read my reply but something definitely I don't get what you say.. I don't know how to put it... Anyway we have to judge our own self to augment our status so we can gradually purify the soul. Who is successful other who purifies the soul . .
No bad feelings.. Okay my lovely brother coz I might not have written that may possibly please you perhaps..
Correct me in case I am against the truth which realized and that I have not yet..
Thank you..
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Or do I not somehow unable to fathom you out.. Believer have or for that matter should have numerous traits which are leading to main their faith... But why these three I don't quite get you...
I just gave a few traits as a reference (which I think are important) and you can add other traits if you wish!
Chapter 74 verses honestly I don't get increased my faith by reading the mere verse until I came to know about numeric pattern of Quran.. So.. We can't blame anyone on that until he knows about it..
Yes, you are very true.
But some people refuse to accept it although he knows the numerical pattern of miracle-19 in the Quran and some of them even said we don't need such a miracle to believe that the Quran was from God. And this miracle subsequently failed to strengthen their faith.For these people I think they should be reflected as the true believers will not act like that. For true believers, all God revelations are "Good" and "will strengthen their faith".
1630 As for the righteous, when they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Good." For those who lead a righteous life, happiness, and the abode of the Hereafter is even better. What a blissful abode for the righteous.
82 The believers are those whose hearts tremble when God is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited to them, their faith is strengthened, and they trust in their LordNote If miracle-19 has strengthened someone's faith, at least he has possessed one sign of true believer in this worldly life!
Heart tremble verses... Honestly for my self and ask all you believers, do your hearts tremble while reading all the verses of Quran or some very specific verses of Quran? Trust me honestly my hearts get melt when I read certain verses even if I have read it 100 times before...
That is a good sign I suppose!
No bad feelings.. Okay my lovely brother coz I might not have written that may possibly please you perhaps..
You are a good guy. Whatever you write I love it!
Thank you.
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My understanding about Rashad Khalifa and his code 19 is that he believed that certain verses of the Quran were not part of the original revelation as it does not contain the mathematical pattern of 19 and were added later. As a result, he excluded these verses from his count of the total number of verses in the Quran.
He claims that both the divine authorship, and the perfect preservation of the Quran, the Almighty author has rendered the Quran mathematically composed.My belief is that
"Surely, we have revealed this scripture, and surely, we will preserve it."Quran should be understood primarily through its textual and contextual analysis, rather than seeking hidden numerical codes or patterns.
Islamic scholarship traditionally emphasizes the linguistic, literary, historical, and theological aspects of the Quran, focusing on understanding its message and applying its teachings to the lives of believers. While numerical patterns may exist within the Quran, they are not generally regarded as carrying any theological or miraculous significance.
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I just gave a few traits as a reference (which I think are important) and you can add other traits if you wish!
Yes, you are very true.Thank you.
Salam...
Yes.. That's sound so manifest... Thank yiu for clarifying brother... Keep nearing God with your characteristics of believers... In sha Allah let's meet in the hereafter in pleasing destination... Mind you.. I will in sha Allah definitely ask where my lovely brother Shukri is from Angels... group...May Allah bless us with His mercy and guidance... And May Allah strnghthen us with patience and integrity...
Take care dude. -
My understanding about Rashad Khalifa and his code 19 is that he believed that certain verses of the Quran were not part of the original revelation as it does not contain the mathematical pattern of 19 and were added later. As a result, he excluded these verses from his count of the total number of verses in the Quran.
I have written my comment on why verses 9128,129 are not part of the Quran. If you interested please surf this link, see Reply #51
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611752.50My belief is that
"Surely, we have revealed this scripture, and surely, we will preserve it."Also my comment on verse 159 has been written on this link, Reply #137
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611165.130Quran should be understood primarily through its textual and contextual analysis, rather than seeking hidden numerical codes or patterns.
Code 19 is an ultimate proof that the Quran is from God and humans cannot produce it.
That is the main purpose of Code 19.
Whereas textual and contextual analysis is a task for every believer!Islamic scholarship traditionally emphasizes the linguistic, literary, historical, and theological aspects of the Quran, focusing on understanding its message and applying its teachings to the lives of believers. While numerical patterns may exist within the Quran, they are not generally regarded as carrying any theological or miraculous significance.
If not miraculous significance, why did verse 7435 say number-19 is the great one?
7435 |إنها - Indeed, it| لإحدى - (is) surely one| الكبر - (of) the greatest,|
http//www.openburhan.net/Thank you.
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Quran should be understood primarily through its textual and contextual analysis, rather than seeking hidden numerical codes or patterns.
Textual analysis!
That's a good reminder, thank you brother Fusion!
And I think verse 7431 needs such an analysis to be more clearer
AND I do it in a simple way!The categories of people in verse 7431
There are five categories of people denoted by group (1) to (5)7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number
(1) to disturb the disbelievers/rejecters,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews,
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts (who have a sickness in their hearts), and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory/example?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills.
None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.Shukri's Textual Analysis peace
If miracle-19 fails to strengthen our faith or remove any doubt from our hearts we definitely not belong to categories (3) and (4)
If we are followers of the Quran i.e. not consider ourselves as disbelievers/Christians/Jews we certainly are not in category (1) or (2)
So, where are we?
The Only category left for us is category (5)Am I wrong!
I don't know
Is my textual analysis so exaggerated and out of context?
Also I don't knowI hope someone here can enlighten me if i'm wrong
Brother Fusion also welcome!Thank you.
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Textual analysis!
That's a good reminder, thank you brother Fusion!
And I think verse 7431 needs such an analysis to be more clearer
AND I do it in a simple way!The categories of people in verse 7431
There are five categories of people denoted by group (1) to (5)7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number
(1) to disturb the disbelievers/rejecters,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews,
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts (who have a sickness in their hearts), and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory/example?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills.
None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.Shukri's Textual Analysis peace
If miracle-19 fails to strengthen our faith or remove any doubt from our hearts we definitely not belong to categories (3) and (4)
If we are followers of the Quran i.e. not consider ourselves as disbelievers/Christians/Jews we certainly are not in category (1) or (2)
So, where are we?
The Only category left for us is category (5)Am I wrong!
I don't know
Is my textual analysis so exaggerated and out of context?
Also I don't knowI hope someone here can enlighten me if i'm wrong
Brother Fusion also welcome!Thank you.
Salam...
(This) Qur'an is a Declaration / Speach (Bayan) to people and a Guidance and a Instruction for those conscious
Anyone who are concious can understand it...
Brother Shukri... The verses you have brought above are indeed in my understanding are relevant later part of 37... I hope you get me.. That's why those who believe said in the same verse 37 we accept all verses of God...
So anyone can ask a logical question... What did prophet Mohamed and those people regardless of faith, understood by chapter 74 these particular verses.. I am sure no one would have got any clue how to increase faith and get convinced by those set of verses.. Impossible.. Honestly had they asked they would have only asked what those disbelievers asked.. I mean what did God mean by this example?... But believers would have been silent... Disbelievers exposed by asking what they did ask. But time elapsed and God reveal his hidden truths Co God forever not gonna keep his 37 statement concealed... He exposes.. Like He stated we will let them know until they know this is the truth... But for those in the past what was understood was enough while messenger was among them..I am sure.. When before the day of Judgement all verses meaning will be exposed by God... That's why we have to believe what we understand and we have to believe what we don't.. What we don't understand will be exposed if God will within our life time.. It does not mean we reject what we don't understand.. That's why the crucial statemnt of believrs in the same verse 37 is included.. The Verse 37 stares none knows it's meaning except Allah.. I get it.. But it doesn't mean Allah will never reveal it.. Even if someone discovered it was Allah who exposes not those who work out numeric...
So don't worry brother these who don't believe... God will show the truth in everything .. Falsehood will vanish and teuth prevail... It can never happen if truth keep hidden forever.. So be patient... Let those who deny... Deny it.. It won't make any difference to us... Is it? But you keep reminding.. Yes.. if remeidners stops how things get clarified.. God uses all believers and His signs to show truth to whole world..
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Salam...
(This) Qur'an is a Declaration / Speach (Bayan) to people and a Guidance and a Instruction for those conscious
Anyone who are concious can understand it...
Brother Shukri... The verses you have brought above are indeed in my understanding are relevant later part of 37... I hope you get me.. That's why those who believe said in the same verse 37 we accept all verses of God...
So anyone can ask a logical question... What did prophet Mohamed and those people regardless of faith, understood by chapter 74 these particular verses.. I am sure no one would have got any clue how to increase faith and get convinced by those set of verses.. Impossible.. Honestly had they asked they would have only asked what those disbelievers asked.. I mean what did God mean by this example?... But believers would have been silent... Disbelievers exposed by asking what they did ask. But time elapsed and God reveal his hidden truths Co God forever not gonna keep his 37 statement concealed... He exposes.. Like He stated we will let them know until they know this is the truth... But for those in the past what was understood was enough while messenger was among them......
Salam,
Thanks for your enlightenment! -
I just saw this video
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSLx7Z4r9s ... Is the Qur'an from God or from Man? - Jay Smith
The speaker, Jay Smith has expressed his doubt that the Quran was from God and even he accepts the challenge of verse 223; AND claimed Psalm 23 is better than any Quran surah!223 If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one surah like these, and call upon your own witnesses against God, if you are truthful.
My Question
Without miracle-19, do we have any absolute answer for his doubt/challenge? -
Producing a better surah will be subjective thus I think the challenge is to emphasise a point, and that point is it will force the challenger to read Quran, reflect and come to realise the Quran is sublime, rhythmical, eloquent, precise, logical, true, moves people, empirical, resonates with human life/psyche etc.
Quran word of God?
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htmI just read Psalm 23 and it's in the 1st person mainly talking about the effect of having God in one's life. Can you cite a Quran surah that talks like that? And it has a few references to God doing human-type things and using human-type objects, and the last line where it implies the person "will dwell in the Lord's House forever" but that's for God to decide, so it would be interesting to see if there is a human talking like that in Quran. Plus I'd have to read the original to see if had the rhythmic tone of Quran. Not even sure if they have the original language.
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I just saw this video
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSLx7Z4r9s ... Is the Qur'an from God or from Man? - Jay Smith
The speaker, Jay Smith has expressed his doubt that the Quran was from God and even he accepts the challenge of verse 223; AND claimed Psalm 23 is better than any Quran surah!223 If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one surah like these, and call upon your own witnesses against God, if you are truthful.
My Question
Without miracle-19, do we have any absolute answer for his doubt/challenge?Salam brother.
First of all personally I sense that the challenge is null and void once communication of God is fulfilled. God is the one who challenged and not Mohamed or we... Had anyone brought anything during the life time of the Messenger, then God willing He would have taken due action for it.. It seems there is nothing since Quran doesn't state thus.. Let Jay smith perceive that first..
Secondly, another person can say his own religious Sistine / books such and such chapter is better than 223 Quran .. So we are not to response.. Even some can challenge Jay smith if he is victorious then others would say our book's this chapter is better than Psalm 23.. So Jay smith has to figure out...
Thirdly.. Jay smith should know that God clearly said a chapter formed / invented without the help of God.. So.. How do we know Psalm 23 is from God or not.. Perhaps it is from God perhsps not. Then Jay smith cannot bring God's verses to challenge God's verses of 223.. So let him first authenticate that Psalm 23 is not involved God or His Messengers at all and it is totally human words or jinns.. How he prove that Psalm 23 is from human only with what evidence? Then let him claim that psalm 23 is better.. If God willing God would reply... If he fails then let God decide his destiny as described...
Number 19 or any numeric symmetry of Quran is not meant for their claims but to convince believers and true people of previous scripture holders.. Disbelievers will hate it or not? So miracles or signs or verses of God won't change the stance of disbelievers.. Everything benefits believers only... Am I sound away from what is written in those verses?
So just relax brother.. Let all reflect why would Allah place mere Arabic letters in random chapters? Would Allah do anything without intent? If nothing is in those letters in 29 chapters, then did Allah place it for fun or to increase number of verses of Quran? Lol..
Just chill bro.. You keep digging those numeric patterns if you are gold at.. Just don't waste time for disbelievrs... But remind people with Quran.. -
Producing a better surah will be subjective thus I think the challenge is to emphasise a point, and that point is it will force the challenger to read Quran, reflect and come to realise the Quran is sublime, rhythmical, eloquent, precise, logical, true, moves people, empirical, resonates with human life/psyche etc.
First of all I want to attach the translation of verse 223 by "Free-minds translator"
223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.But the verse 223 only specify "one surah like this" and not the the whole Quran
Thus we must identify the surah and make a challenge based on this surah
And our challenge should be very objective in nature to avoid any subjective argumentSee this link
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?
Here the miracle-19 plays it vital role in this challenge
Can any human produce the surah like this?
If they can, just prove it!
And we will be their witnesses in the hereafterIf they cannot, the subsequence verse after 223 i.e. 224 is waiting for them!
224 If you cannot do this and you can never do this then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.Just my take
Salam
Thank you. -
Peace All.
Once we come across Qoran ,then either we are attracted to it or repelled by it or side line it and misuse it for our own agenda. Each to their own role with Qoran.
GOD knows the believers, disbelievers and pretenders.So who are the true believers?
Really anyone who claims are believers must be given the benefit of a doubt ,it is up to GOD to judge them, unless there is evidence about the claimer to the contrary.For me,I feel Qoran is talking to me personally and I feel a real interaction with the Author. Believing GOD, sent Qoran-revelation-, is to believe every word of it, for example
Say, "Everyone works in accordance with his belief, and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path."
قُل كُلٌّ يَعمَلُ عَلىٰ شاكِلَتِهِ فَرَبُّكُم أَعلَمُ بِمَن هُوَ أَهدىٰ سَبيلًاThey ask you about the revelation. Say, "The revelation comes from my Lord(The Source of All knowledge) knowledge given to you is minute."
وَيَسـَٔلونَكَ عَنِ الرّوحِ قُلِ الرّوحُ مِن أَمرِ رَبّى وَما أوتيتُم مِنَ العِلمِ إِلّا قَليلًاIf we will, we can take back what we revealed to you, then you will find no protector against us.
وَلَئِن شِئنا لَنَذهَبَنَّ بِالَّذى أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ ثُمَّ لا تَجِدُ لَكَ بِهِ عَلَينا وَكيلًاThis is but mercy from your Lord. His blessings upon you have been great.
إِلّا رَحمَةً مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ فَضلَهُ كانَ عَلَيكَ كَبيرًاSay, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Qoran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
قُل لَئِنِ اجتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالجِنُّ عَلىٰ أَن يَأتوا بِمِثلِ هٰذَا القُرءانِ لا يَأتونَ بِمِثلِهِ وَلَو كانَ بَعضُهُم لِبَعضٍ ظَهيرًاWe have cited for the people in this Qoran all kinds of examples, but most people insist upon disbelieving.
وَلَقَد صَرَّفنا لِلنّاسِ فى هٰذَا القُرءانِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبىٰ أَكثَرُ النّاسِ إِلّا كُفورًاOr,for example
Truthfully, we sent it down, and with the truth it came down. We did not send you except as a bearer of good news, as well as a warner.
وَبِالحَقِّ أَنزَلنٰهُ وَبِالحَقِّ نَزَلَ وَما أَرسَلنٰكَ إِلّا مُبَشِّرًا وَنَذيرًاA Qoran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.
وَقُرءانًا فَرَقنٰهُ لِتَقرَأَهُ عَلَى النّاسِ عَلىٰ مُكثٍ وَنَزَّلنٰهُ تَنزيلًاProclaim, "Believe in it, or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating.
قُل ءامِنوا بِهِ أَو لا تُؤمِنوا إِنَّ الَّذينَ أوتُوا العِلمَ مِن قَبلِهِ إِذا يُتلىٰ عَلَيهِم يَخِرّونَ لِلأَذقانِ سُجَّدًاThey say, "Glory be to our Lord. This fulfills our Lord's prophecy."
وَيَقولونَ سُبحٰنَ رَبِّنا إِن كانَ وَعدُ رَبِّنا لَمَفعولًا
They fall down on their chins, prostrating and weeping, for it augments their reverence.
وَيَخِرّونَ لِلأَذقانِ يَبكونَ وَيَزيدُهُم خُشوعًا
... and so on across every surah one reads/studiesThe true believer feels GOD is talking to them directly and personally throughout the Qoran .
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
The true believer feels GOD is talking to them directly and personally throughout the Qoran .
GOD bless you all.
Peace.Blessed are those who have been bestowed by such a gift!
4251 No human being can communicate with God except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger through whom He reveals what He wills. He is the Most High, Most Wise.
Thank you.
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Alexa!
What is it? )Thanks.
3186 " ... And you will surely hear annoyances in abundance from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others. But if you are perseverant and be concious, then indeed, that is of the actions of determination"
So.. Don't worry about Jay smith.. He is one of those.
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Alexa.. Come on Google.. lol
