Are we true believers!
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Quran should be understood primarily through its textual and contextual analysis, rather than seeking hidden numerical codes or patterns.
Textual analysis!
That's a good reminder, thank you brother Fusion!
And I think verse 7431 needs such an analysis to be more clearer
AND I do it in a simple way!The categories of people in verse 7431
There are five categories of people denoted by group (1) to (5)7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number
(1) to disturb the disbelievers/rejecters,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews,
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts (who have a sickness in their hearts), and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory/example?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills.
None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.Shukri's Textual Analysis peace
If miracle-19 fails to strengthen our faith or remove any doubt from our hearts we definitely not belong to categories (3) and (4)
If we are followers of the Quran i.e. not consider ourselves as disbelievers/Christians/Jews we certainly are not in category (1) or (2)
So, where are we?
The Only category left for us is category (5)Am I wrong!
I don't know
Is my textual analysis so exaggerated and out of context?
Also I don't knowI hope someone here can enlighten me if i'm wrong
Brother Fusion also welcome!Thank you.
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Textual analysis!
That's a good reminder, thank you brother Fusion!
And I think verse 7431 needs such an analysis to be more clearer
AND I do it in a simple way!The categories of people in verse 7431
There are five categories of people denoted by group (1) to (5)7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number
(1) to disturb the disbelievers/rejecters,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews,
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts (who have a sickness in their hearts), and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory/example?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills.
None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.Shukri's Textual Analysis peace
If miracle-19 fails to strengthen our faith or remove any doubt from our hearts we definitely not belong to categories (3) and (4)
If we are followers of the Quran i.e. not consider ourselves as disbelievers/Christians/Jews we certainly are not in category (1) or (2)
So, where are we?
The Only category left for us is category (5)Am I wrong!
I don't know
Is my textual analysis so exaggerated and out of context?
Also I don't knowI hope someone here can enlighten me if i'm wrong
Brother Fusion also welcome!Thank you.
Salam...
(This) Qur'an is a Declaration / Speach (Bayan) to people and a Guidance and a Instruction for those conscious
Anyone who are concious can understand it...
Brother Shukri... The verses you have brought above are indeed in my understanding are relevant later part of 37... I hope you get me.. That's why those who believe said in the same verse 37 we accept all verses of God...
So anyone can ask a logical question... What did prophet Mohamed and those people regardless of faith, understood by chapter 74 these particular verses.. I am sure no one would have got any clue how to increase faith and get convinced by those set of verses.. Impossible.. Honestly had they asked they would have only asked what those disbelievers asked.. I mean what did God mean by this example?... But believers would have been silent... Disbelievers exposed by asking what they did ask. But time elapsed and God reveal his hidden truths Co God forever not gonna keep his 37 statement concealed... He exposes.. Like He stated we will let them know until they know this is the truth... But for those in the past what was understood was enough while messenger was among them..I am sure.. When before the day of Judgement all verses meaning will be exposed by God... That's why we have to believe what we understand and we have to believe what we don't.. What we don't understand will be exposed if God will within our life time.. It does not mean we reject what we don't understand.. That's why the crucial statemnt of believrs in the same verse 37 is included.. The Verse 37 stares none knows it's meaning except Allah.. I get it.. But it doesn't mean Allah will never reveal it.. Even if someone discovered it was Allah who exposes not those who work out numeric...
So don't worry brother these who don't believe... God will show the truth in everything .. Falsehood will vanish and teuth prevail... It can never happen if truth keep hidden forever.. So be patient... Let those who deny... Deny it.. It won't make any difference to us... Is it? But you keep reminding.. Yes.. if remeidners stops how things get clarified.. God uses all believers and His signs to show truth to whole world..
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Salam...
(This) Qur'an is a Declaration / Speach (Bayan) to people and a Guidance and a Instruction for those conscious
Anyone who are concious can understand it...
Brother Shukri... The verses you have brought above are indeed in my understanding are relevant later part of 37... I hope you get me.. That's why those who believe said in the same verse 37 we accept all verses of God...
So anyone can ask a logical question... What did prophet Mohamed and those people regardless of faith, understood by chapter 74 these particular verses.. I am sure no one would have got any clue how to increase faith and get convinced by those set of verses.. Impossible.. Honestly had they asked they would have only asked what those disbelievers asked.. I mean what did God mean by this example?... But believers would have been silent... Disbelievers exposed by asking what they did ask. But time elapsed and God reveal his hidden truths Co God forever not gonna keep his 37 statement concealed... He exposes.. Like He stated we will let them know until they know this is the truth... But for those in the past what was understood was enough while messenger was among them......
Salam,
Thanks for your enlightenment! -
I just saw this video
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSLx7Z4r9s ... Is the Qur'an from God or from Man? - Jay Smith
The speaker, Jay Smith has expressed his doubt that the Quran was from God and even he accepts the challenge of verse 223; AND claimed Psalm 23 is better than any Quran surah!223 If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one surah like these, and call upon your own witnesses against God, if you are truthful.
My Question
Without miracle-19, do we have any absolute answer for his doubt/challenge? -
Producing a better surah will be subjective thus I think the challenge is to emphasise a point, and that point is it will force the challenger to read Quran, reflect and come to realise the Quran is sublime, rhythmical, eloquent, precise, logical, true, moves people, empirical, resonates with human life/psyche etc.
Quran word of God?
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htmI just read Psalm 23 and it's in the 1st person mainly talking about the effect of having God in one's life. Can you cite a Quran surah that talks like that? And it has a few references to God doing human-type things and using human-type objects, and the last line where it implies the person "will dwell in the Lord's House forever" but that's for God to decide, so it would be interesting to see if there is a human talking like that in Quran. Plus I'd have to read the original to see if had the rhythmic tone of Quran. Not even sure if they have the original language.
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I just saw this video
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSLx7Z4r9s ... Is the Qur'an from God or from Man? - Jay Smith
The speaker, Jay Smith has expressed his doubt that the Quran was from God and even he accepts the challenge of verse 223; AND claimed Psalm 23 is better than any Quran surah!223 If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one surah like these, and call upon your own witnesses against God, if you are truthful.
My Question
Without miracle-19, do we have any absolute answer for his doubt/challenge?Salam brother.
First of all personally I sense that the challenge is null and void once communication of God is fulfilled. God is the one who challenged and not Mohamed or we... Had anyone brought anything during the life time of the Messenger, then God willing He would have taken due action for it.. It seems there is nothing since Quran doesn't state thus.. Let Jay smith perceive that first..
Secondly, another person can say his own religious Sistine / books such and such chapter is better than 223 Quran .. So we are not to response.. Even some can challenge Jay smith if he is victorious then others would say our book's this chapter is better than Psalm 23.. So Jay smith has to figure out...
Thirdly.. Jay smith should know that God clearly said a chapter formed / invented without the help of God.. So.. How do we know Psalm 23 is from God or not.. Perhaps it is from God perhsps not. Then Jay smith cannot bring God's verses to challenge God's verses of 223.. So let him first authenticate that Psalm 23 is not involved God or His Messengers at all and it is totally human words or jinns.. How he prove that Psalm 23 is from human only with what evidence? Then let him claim that psalm 23 is better.. If God willing God would reply... If he fails then let God decide his destiny as described...
Number 19 or any numeric symmetry of Quran is not meant for their claims but to convince believers and true people of previous scripture holders.. Disbelievers will hate it or not? So miracles or signs or verses of God won't change the stance of disbelievers.. Everything benefits believers only... Am I sound away from what is written in those verses?
So just relax brother.. Let all reflect why would Allah place mere Arabic letters in random chapters? Would Allah do anything without intent? If nothing is in those letters in 29 chapters, then did Allah place it for fun or to increase number of verses of Quran? Lol..
Just chill bro.. You keep digging those numeric patterns if you are gold at.. Just don't waste time for disbelievrs... But remind people with Quran.. -
Producing a better surah will be subjective thus I think the challenge is to emphasise a point, and that point is it will force the challenger to read Quran, reflect and come to realise the Quran is sublime, rhythmical, eloquent, precise, logical, true, moves people, empirical, resonates with human life/psyche etc.
First of all I want to attach the translation of verse 223 by "Free-minds translator"
223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.But the verse 223 only specify "one surah like this" and not the the whole Quran
Thus we must identify the surah and make a challenge based on this surah
And our challenge should be very objective in nature to avoid any subjective argumentSee this link
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?
Here the miracle-19 plays it vital role in this challenge
Can any human produce the surah like this?
If they can, just prove it!
And we will be their witnesses in the hereafterIf they cannot, the subsequence verse after 223 i.e. 224 is waiting for them!
224 If you cannot do this and you can never do this then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.Just my take
Salam
Thank you. -
Peace All.
Once we come across Qoran ,then either we are attracted to it or repelled by it or side line it and misuse it for our own agenda. Each to their own role with Qoran.
GOD knows the believers, disbelievers and pretenders.So who are the true believers?
Really anyone who claims are believers must be given the benefit of a doubt ,it is up to GOD to judge them, unless there is evidence about the claimer to the contrary.For me,I feel Qoran is talking to me personally and I feel a real interaction with the Author. Believing GOD, sent Qoran-revelation-, is to believe every word of it, for example
Say, "Everyone works in accordance with his belief, and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path."
قُل كُلٌّ يَعمَلُ عَلىٰ شاكِلَتِهِ فَرَبُّكُم أَعلَمُ بِمَن هُوَ أَهدىٰ سَبيلًاThey ask you about the revelation. Say, "The revelation comes from my Lord(The Source of All knowledge) knowledge given to you is minute."
وَيَسـَٔلونَكَ عَنِ الرّوحِ قُلِ الرّوحُ مِن أَمرِ رَبّى وَما أوتيتُم مِنَ العِلمِ إِلّا قَليلًاIf we will, we can take back what we revealed to you, then you will find no protector against us.
وَلَئِن شِئنا لَنَذهَبَنَّ بِالَّذى أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ ثُمَّ لا تَجِدُ لَكَ بِهِ عَلَينا وَكيلًاThis is but mercy from your Lord. His blessings upon you have been great.
إِلّا رَحمَةً مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ فَضلَهُ كانَ عَلَيكَ كَبيرًاSay, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Qoran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
قُل لَئِنِ اجتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالجِنُّ عَلىٰ أَن يَأتوا بِمِثلِ هٰذَا القُرءانِ لا يَأتونَ بِمِثلِهِ وَلَو كانَ بَعضُهُم لِبَعضٍ ظَهيرًاWe have cited for the people in this Qoran all kinds of examples, but most people insist upon disbelieving.
وَلَقَد صَرَّفنا لِلنّاسِ فى هٰذَا القُرءانِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبىٰ أَكثَرُ النّاسِ إِلّا كُفورًاOr,for example
Truthfully, we sent it down, and with the truth it came down. We did not send you except as a bearer of good news, as well as a warner.
وَبِالحَقِّ أَنزَلنٰهُ وَبِالحَقِّ نَزَلَ وَما أَرسَلنٰكَ إِلّا مُبَشِّرًا وَنَذيرًاA Qoran that we have released slowly, in order for you to read it to the people over a long period, although we sent it down all at once.
وَقُرءانًا فَرَقنٰهُ لِتَقرَأَهُ عَلَى النّاسِ عَلىٰ مُكثٍ وَنَزَّلنٰهُ تَنزيلًاProclaim, "Believe in it, or do not believe in it." Those who possess knowledge from the previous scriptures, when it is recited to them, they fall down to their chins, prostrating.
قُل ءامِنوا بِهِ أَو لا تُؤمِنوا إِنَّ الَّذينَ أوتُوا العِلمَ مِن قَبلِهِ إِذا يُتلىٰ عَلَيهِم يَخِرّونَ لِلأَذقانِ سُجَّدًاThey say, "Glory be to our Lord. This fulfills our Lord's prophecy."
وَيَقولونَ سُبحٰنَ رَبِّنا إِن كانَ وَعدُ رَبِّنا لَمَفعولًا
They fall down on their chins, prostrating and weeping, for it augments their reverence.
وَيَخِرّونَ لِلأَذقانِ يَبكونَ وَيَزيدُهُم خُشوعًا
... and so on across every surah one reads/studiesThe true believer feels GOD is talking to them directly and personally throughout the Qoran .
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
The true believer feels GOD is talking to them directly and personally throughout the Qoran .
GOD bless you all.
Peace.Blessed are those who have been bestowed by such a gift!
4251 No human being can communicate with God except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger through whom He reveals what He wills. He is the Most High, Most Wise.
Thank you.
-
Alexa!
What is it? )Thanks.
3186 " ... And you will surely hear annoyances in abundance from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others. But if you are perseverant and be concious, then indeed, that is of the actions of determination"
So.. Don't worry about Jay smith.. He is one of those.
.....
Alexa.. Come on Google.. lol -
Peace..
If this needs clarification , quote
"The true believer feels GOD is talking to them directly and personally throughout the Qoran .Then "It feels" just means " Every true believers is addressed directly and personally"..
GOD is unique and ever living. GOD can be addressed/ implored/communicated with/connected to... directly by us as He is everywhere. "La Tudrikuhu Al Absar. Wa Huwa Udriku Al absar"
Just feels not see for us..But GOD sees, hears and knows everything.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
These signs accompany true believers
- The believers are those whose hearts tremble when God is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited to them, their faith is strengthened, and they trust in their Lord (AQ 82)
- Absolutely, God's allies have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve (AQ 1062)
- Over it is nineteen. We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number
(a) to disturb the disbelievers,
(b) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(c) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(d) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(e) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people (AQ 7430-31)
Question Do we already have these basic signs!
My last words for this thread
Every true believer will be accompanied by various signs
These signs will serve as a guideline for us to verify ourselves
Feel grateful for those who are blessed (with the signs) and self-reflect for othersLife is full of difficulties and challenges
We can't escape from it
But for the true believers God promised for them the happiness in this world and in the hereafter1062 Absolutely, GOD’s allies have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
1063 They are those who believe and lead a righteous life.
1064 For them, glad tidings/joy and happiness in this world, as well as in the Hereafter. This is GOD’s unchangeable law. Such is the greatest triumph.If we no longer fear or grieve in this life, I think we are blessed with a great sign of true believers.
And this stuff was experienced by Abraham, our exemplary imam in the Quran.No fear
2679 "The One who feeds me and waters me."
2680 "And when I get sick, He heals me.No grieve
37 102 When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."AND these signs (no fear, no grieve) are a climax for true believers, I suppose!
Ends.
Thank you to jkhan, Fusion, Wakas, Reel and good logic for participating in this discussion.
May God bless us!
So long! -
See this link
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?
Here the miracle-19 plays it vital role in this challenge100% ignorant garbage for dummies
Simple digit flipping hide 18/19 fails show 1/19 hits
Zero consistency multiples posted with other chapters
Take any one parameter ~5 other chapters predictable
Apply same methods other numbers 7, 11, 13, 17, 23, 29
No 19 code in Qur’an any single parameter ~1/19 predictable
There’s no nice way to say it other than you guys are ignorant
Likewise you guys can’t read basic stuff suggest learn numbersfeminine and masculine eg nineteen morons (masculine)
تِسْعةَ عَشرَ بليداًhttp//allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/p3/arabic-numbers/
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Coincidence or Planned Design?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/bp2/BeyondProbability_TheKey_AlFatehah.pdf?The combination of facts about the opening chapter of the Quran make it clear that its design is
not just coincidence. For instance, we notice in over a dozen facts a recurring pattern of the sura
number (1) and the number of each of the verses (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7). A simplified version of the
pattern is n = 1 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 5 * 6 * 7 *
Here, “*” is a placeholder for verse-level parameters, like the count of letters in each
verse. (These parameter numbers are always positive integers.) The resultant number “n”
is a multiple of 19.You’ll see this pattern if you look at Fact 1 (1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7; in this case, the * symbol
represents an empty string) or Fact 4 (1 1 19,786 2 17,581 ... 7 43,6009; where the *
represents the number of letters in the verse followed by the gematrical value of that
verse).There are only two possible explanations for over a dozen numbers following this
structure. One explanation is that “all this is coincidence and given a sufficiently large
sample of books you could get instances of facts whose probability of occurrence is one
in a million”. The other explanation, to borrow from Abdullah Arik’s “Beyond
Probability”, is that the Al-Fãtehah has been deliberately structured to result in this
remarkable mathematical system. Let us try to figure out which explanation makes more
sense using some simple probability calculations.Suppose Fact 1 and Fact 4 (the first two occurrences of this pattern) occurred by random
chance. How do we calculate the probability of this occurring? To illustrate this, we’ll
further simplify a few things. Let us assume that the * parameters are single-digit
numbers (1-9). In that case, the resulting number “n” will have 15 digits and look like
1 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 5 * 6 * 7 *. Our next task is to calculate the probability that a randomly
chosen 15-digit number will satisfy the specified pattern and be a 19 multiple.To calculate this probability empirically, we wrote a computer program that identified all
15-digit numbers satisfying the following sample conditions- The first number is 1 (for the sura number)
- The second number is 1 (first verse)
- The fourth number is 2
- The sixth number is 3
- The eighth number is 4
- The tenth number is 5
- The twelfth number is 6
- The fourteenth number is 7
- The entire number is a multiple of 19
Since we knew the first two digits had to be “1 1” (see conditions numbered 1 and 2 in
the list above), we told the computer to only consider numbers between
111,111,111,111,111 and 119,999,999,999,999 so it could complete the task faster. (If
we consider all 15-digit numbers from 111,111,111,111,111 to 999,999,999,999,999 we
get an even smaller probability, but that only strengthens the conclusion.)Thank you.
-
Continuation
The computer found 251,735 such numbers out of a population of 8,888,888,888,888 possible
numbers (i.e., numbers that lie between 111,111,111,111,111 and 119,999,999,999,999).
Therefore, the chance of a number at random and by pure coincidence satisfying the 9 listed
conditions is 251,735 ÷ 8,888,888,888,888 or approximately 1 in 35 million! This is similar to the
odds of tossing a coin 25 times and getting heads every single time.Based on this information, we can say that two such facts about Sura 1 coincidentally occurring is
like tossing a coin 50 times and getting heads every single time, i.e., 1 in (35 million) x (35 million)
or approximately 1 in a quadrillion. The more such facts that appear in a book or chapter, the
probability of them occurring purely by chance becomes even more minuscule. This probability
quickly approaches zero as we take additional mathematical facts into consideration.Note a more general version of the pattern described, which considers aggregate parameters of
Sura 1, is
n = 1 # 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 5 * 6 * 7 *
Here, “#” represents sura-level aggregate parameters, e.g., the number of verses in Sura- An example of this pattern is seen in Fact 8 which starts with the sura number (1)
followed by the number of verses (7) in the sura, followed by each verse number and the
corresponding gematrical value of each letter within the verse. The additional
complexity implies an even tinier likelihood that a number will satisfy our sample
conditions by coincidence.
A reasonable person may therefore conclude that the structure of Sura 1, The Key, is by the
design of an Almighty Author, especially given that the mathematical structure encompasses the
entire book, not just the first chapter.Ends.
Thank you.
- An example of this pattern is seen in Fact 8 which starts with the sura number (1)
-
100% ignorant garbage for dummies
Simple digit flipping hide 18/19 fails show 1/19 hits
Zero consistency multiples posted with other chapters
Take any one parameter ~5 other chapters predictable
Apply same methods other numbers 7, 11, 13, 17, 23, 29
No 19 code in Qur’an any single parameter ~1/19 predictable
There’s no nice way to say it other than you guys are ignorant
Likewise you guys can’t read basic stuff suggest learn numbersfeminine and masculine eg nineteen morons (masculine)
تِسْعةَ عَشرَ بليداًhttp//allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/p3/arabic-numbers/
Before you make statement saying 100% garb.. First reflect if you are believer, why there are Arabic letters in Quran..
Why in chapter 2 and 3 it starts with Alif Lam MeeM and not in chapter 4? Why... Is the author has some sense in placing those mere arabic letters? It arabic letters has healing power for hearts they read them? It someone included these letters on top of 29 chapters noy in middle or end just to show this book is different? Or if you are a believer bring the reason for these letters to appear in the Quran? Do you have any valid reason of your own, if so elucidate it.. But you keep denying people who bring even the most convincing pattern... Or you want even a patten which God even not placed in it?
If until the day of judgement those letters didn't mean anything Quran then isn't it waste placing them logically? Or else tell us in black and white. WHAT GUIDANCE YOU GOT BY THESE VERSEA WHICH SHUKRI SPEAKS OF.. or what importance for you these letters in Quran? If nothing then why you say what you don't know of... It you want to say some coincidences somehow have occurred in Quran but fools are after it...
Well people yes I can see most sunni Muslims nowadays so proud of talking about numeric pattern but they totally discard ehere it originated... And they only most bring inconsistent lies...Anyway.. Be happy with what you are satisfied. After all believera only will get convinced as per the verse... So.. I dont mind you reject it.. Coz verse confirms your stance..
