GOD s revelation V Men s fabrications. Truth V Falsehood
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I would like to ask for a simple clarification.
The differences among the various Qira'at include variations in pronunciation, dialect, and sometimes slight differences in wording and vowelization. These variations do not change the overall meaning of the Quran.
Is the above statement true or not?
For me these variations highlight the meticulous preservation and rich oral tradition of the Quran.
Now Bajram says in his last post that Hafs ibn Sulayman was a lair and fabricated many hadiths? As far as I know he does not have a significant presence in the major hadith collections or the famous hadith books that we know of today? He is not known as a prominent hadith narrator, and his reputation among hadith scholars is not particularly strong. In fact, there are critical views about him in the context of hadith transmission. Some hadith scholars have questioned his reliability as a narrator of hadith.
So Hafs ibn Sulayman is primarily known for his role in the transmission of the Quranic recitation rather than for narrating hadiths. His fame and expertise lie in his contribution to the science of Quranic recitation (Tajweed and Qira'at), particularly through his transmission from Aasim ibn Abi al-Najud (His teacher).I can only conclude that While Hafs ibn Sulayman's reputation in hadith transmission may be questioned, his expertise and reliability in Quranic recitation are well-established and widely accepted. Unless we question his Quran reciation solely because he was a bad in Hadith transmission... I think this is not justified.
The multiple Qira'at are a testament to the Quran's linguistic richness and divine preservation rather than evidence of its corruption. The core message of the Quran remains unchanged and universally accepted by the Muslim community, supported by historical, linguistic, and scholarly evidence. -
Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
Qoran in all its stages has been part of a bigger plan that will culminate in the unveiling of the mathematical composition of the Qoran.
This confirmed that all the stages were totally under control of God Almighty. The mathematical miracle will be with us to the end of time and will be an effective tool in distinguishing a correctly written Qoran from one with human errors and will make it possible to have a one standardized edition of the Qoran.This means whatever change the people would do to the revealed Qoran, whether done deliberately or not will be exposed and corrected as the original is preserved with God. God, being the Most Merciful , also provided us with a method and a proof to verify the accuracy of the Qoran..
Unlike the claims made by many Muslim scholars, the Mus-hafs that exist today and around the world are not the same as many of them still carry the human errors that were not corrected.
They do not match word by word or letter by letter and they are not what God promised to preserve and protect.The only fool proof copy and accurate one for those who think the old Mushafs have no errors would be to find the original copy written by the prophet and compare..
I am saying brother that the prophet has left one version. The Hafs version of today comes very close to it according to the mathematical composition.
Obviously, from my conversations with you in the past, we differ in our view on this.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I would like to ask for a simple clarification.
The differences among the various Qira'at include variations in pronunciation, dialect, and sometimes slight differences in wording and vowelization. These variations do not change the overall meaning of the Quran.
Is the above statement true or not?
Salaam,
Some are minor, others are major. See the video posted earlier on the chain of transmitters. You can't have seven or more permutations of 1,000 words, as they don't make sense in context, contradict basic language rules, or show inconsistencies (e.g., lost/won the Romans, wipes/wash the feet, missing words, etc.), and claim all are correct because it was revealed that way.
Study videos by
Dr. Hythem Sidky
Dr. Marijn van Putten
Oxford Scholar Dr. Joshua Little
Professor Shady Nasser of Harvard University
Professor Gabriel Said Reynolds of the University of Notre Dame
https//www.youtube.com/@ExploringtheQuranandtheBiblehttps//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hrcd6K0RDM
Salaam again good logic,
You follow Qur'an according to Hafs, which has errors, e.g.
214 قَالَ (qāla, he said) -- again who is speaking? Who is "he"?You harp on hadith and too proud to admit you don't know?
285 تَعْمَلُونَ (taʿmalūna, thou? working in Hafs) 286 those the ones... -
The Transmission of Variant Readings of the Qur'an
https//youtu.be/k6v3b9uPT38?si=6nZm563viQUifB3f&t=403700 minute reciters who transmitted the Qur'an
Hafs, Warsh, and others; who is correct, and why?Here are some examples in today's text.
285
تَعْمَلُونَ taʿmalūna | thou working (Hafs)
OR
يَعْمَلُونَ yaʿmalūna | they working (Warsh)214
قَالَ qāla | he said (Hafs) | who said?
OR
قُلْ qul | say (Warsh)I have brought few verses which are translations of Sahih international, since the topic is about not meaning but mistakes in Quran..
It is very easy to identify with the flow of the verses and the context whether verse states THEY or YOU.. decide yourself..285 Then, you are those killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And not Allah aware of what you/they do.
286 Those are the ones who have bought the life of this world for the Hereafter, so the punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be aided.
2144 Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And not Allah aware of what they do.
2141 That is a nation which has passed on. It will have what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.Read 285 to 286 and figure out what exactly Allah has spoken like you can figure out 2141 and 2144 etc...
The letter ‘THA’ and the letter ‘YA’ are just a matter of two dots up or down or missing totally…but the letter will look the same… All you have to do is read verses and get it right..
Same with words QUL or QALA.. anyone can write them just with a little space or almost joined, so it would look either QUL or QALA but look for meaning…
But in 2114 it is neither QUL nor QALA but it is QALU (They said),,,,, read the verse “They said, "O woe to us! Indeed, we were wrongdoers.” How can this verse would start with QUL and QALA while it states ‘woe to US’ and it further states ‘WE were wrongdoers’same with 214 He said, "My Lord knows whatever is said throughout the heaven and earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing."
So how can this verse be QALA instead of QUL... because it is stated 'MY Lord knows' even though it seems like the messenger is speaking on his own but in the literal sense the verse is from Allah and asking to SAY / QUL 'MY LORD KNOWS'.. get things right with logic..
Just read the Quran which is in your hand and look for the Guidance of Allah and there will be nothing between you and the guidance of Allah.. No point in wasting time on which Quran to choose and it is better to look for guidance from Allah with the Quran you have.. Not advice to you specifically but for all including me..
thank you
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It is very easy to identify with the flow of the verses and the context whether verse states THEY or YOU.. decide yourself..
285 ... And not Allah aware of what you/they do.
286 Those are the ones ...
Yes Hafs clear error as already stated per context.
same with 214 He said, "My Lord knows whatever is said throughout the heaven and earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing."
So how can this verse be QALA instead of QUL... because it is stated 'MY Lord knows' even though it seems like the messenger is speaking on his own but in the literal sense the verse is from Allah and asking to SAY / QUL 'MY LORD KNOWS'.. get things right with logic..
Hafs error cannot be "he said" in context unstated who "he" is.
Qāla Rabbī pertains to a dialogue only single occurrence
26188 he said "lord mine knows in what thou working"Clearly not قَالُوا رَبَّنَا Qālū Rabbanā as 23106 3861 4011 "said they lord ours"
Hence, 214 قُلْ رَبِّي Qul Rabbī "say lord mine" as in 1822 2885
Old manuscripts Qul and Qāla are spelled the same قل need to use context.
Universitätsbibliothek Tübingen Ma VI 165 (2nd line from top 2nd word)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/107/page/20r?sura=21&verse=4 -
Yes Hafs clear error as already stated per context.
Hafs error cannot be "he said" in context unstated who "he" is.
Qāla Rabbī pertains to a dialogue only single occurrence
26188 he said "lord mine knows in what thou working"Clearly not قَالُوا رَبَّنَا Qālū Rabbanā as 23106 3861 4011 "said they lord ours"
Hence, 214 قُلْ رَبِّي Qul Rabbī "say lord mine" as in 1822 2885
Old manuscripts Qul and Qāla are spelled the same قل need to use context.
Universitätsbibliothek Tübingen Ma VI 165 (2nd line from top 2nd word)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/107/page/20r?sura=21&verse=4Don't look for Hafs or Warsh, but look for Allah's verses and grasp the meaning .. of course while we do so, either Hafs or Warsh may go in line with it.. it is not an issue.. We accept the Quran, not Hafs or Warsh version is right ... they are right or wrong as they have written is not our concern..
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Peae Bajram Hoxhaj.
So are you not making an assumption here about me?Quote
"You harp on hadith and too proud to admit you don't know?
285 تَعْمَلُونَ (taʿmalūna, thou? working in Hafs) 286 those the ones...Brother, if you know why don t you correct the mistakes and evidence your work and there will be no issue about the ones who do not know like myself?
If you have a problem with Interlock and the mathematical composition,then find another way to sort out the problem of all the issues of all these variations and come up with the right version with evidence.
Remember ,with your method, until you find the copy of the prophet to compare with, you are stuck.If you say I have issues with Hafs with correction by the composition, ,then you have issues with all of them, or don t you believe in any?
May be you do not see the irony.
Or you stay with yours and I stay with mine. Then following the message of Qoran by doing will sort us out not by saying..
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Don't look for Hafs or Warsh
OK
There are hundreds of errors that contradict the logical context in Warsh and Hafs, which also contradict older manuscripts.
If you have a problem with Interlock and the mathematical composition
What does 'interlock,' whatever that means, have to do with the topic? I asked you simple questions about why you use Hafs, which has numerous errors that you consistently avoid answering, just like others on this site who spam the forum with rants, avoid answering, divert, or run away, similar to missionaries, followers of baseless hearsay, numerologists, and others.
Why not answer the two questions as jkhan did? Then we can move on to countless other errors.
Salaam
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Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
I have answered you. I do not have any issue with the Hafs I follow like you claim.
The version of Hafs , the most commonly used and widespread transmission was proven by the mathematical composition of the Quran to be the version that meets all the criteria built in the Quran's mathematical structure as God promised in 159, 8521-22 and 7430-31.
This includes the Rasm, (Orthography) of the Quran as well as the numbering, naming and division of the suras and verses.
For me, I am happy to use this version and I do not see a problem like you do .
Rashad s version is also similar here
https//submission.org/QI
Of course there are few things I may not agree with in his translation ,but the Arabic version fits.I also have no issue with those who use any version if they use Qoran Alone and follow GOD s message in their life, as the errors/variations do not impact on the message nor the guidance which is up to GOD Alone and does not depend on versions. It depends on the sincerity of the individual.
Hope that answers your query.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace All.
I want to clarify a very important point for all of us to note regarding GOD s granted freedom to every human
1099 Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?
This is very much relevant here ,because there will always be differences and this fact should teach us to respect that every human have the right to their chosen freedom.
Since on the personal level we are free to accept our own choices and make our own decisions, then no one should force anyone to believe or otherwise. As long as this person is keeping it for him/herself, is peaceful and does not corrupt the community and fight God's laws, he/she can keep such freedom.
In reality,because of this freedom,there exist countless of versions of any scripture according to the interpretations/understanding /...of the individual.
When I am discussing here , I am aware of this point and do not mind all views, I accept that is normal.At the time of the prophet ,even as only few verses came down, the division started. It is naive of us to discount all possibilities of different interpretations and sides /clans that led to sects and division after that up to our time. The three categories of believers, hypocrites/manipulators/pretenders and disbelievers existed from day 1.
It is irrelevant how many variations or which is the right one. GOD s test requires a criteria and those choosing GOD and submission will be guided towards the truth eventually.However,if we are believers, Qoran has taught me that We can easily be divided if we advocate other than GOD's laws in the name of freedom, the false freedom, and we can ONLY be united if we advocate God's laws and stand for it even when there is only minority to do so.
We have to side with GOD all the time or we would be siding with the opposition/ Satan.
It is not Qoran alone that unites ,it is GOD Alone that unites or otherwise. with it.
You shall hold fast to the rope of GOD, all of you, and do not be divided.
The advocators of righteousness and forbidders of evil, and the keepers of GOD's laws. Give good news to such believers.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace All.
I want to clarify a very important point for all of us to note regarding GOD s granted freedom to every human
1099 Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?
This is very much relevant here ,because there will always be differences and this fact should teach us to respect that every human have the right to their chosen freedom.
Since on the personal level we are free to accept our own choices and make our own decisions, then no one should force anyone to believe or otherwise. As long as this person is keeping it for him/herself, is peaceful and does not corrupt the community and fight God's laws, he/she can keep such freedom.
In reality,because of this freedom,there exist countless of versions of any scripture according to the interpretations/understanding /...of the individual.
When I am discussing here , I am aware of this point and do not mind all views, I accept that is normal.At the time of the prophet ,even as only few verses came down, the division started. It is naive of us to discount all possibilities of different interpretations and sides /clans that led to sects and division after that up to our time. The three categories of believers, hypocrites/manipulators/pretenders and disbelievers existed from day 1.
It is irrelevant how many variations or which is the right one. GOD s test requires a criteria and those choosing GOD and submission will be guided towards the truth eventually.However,if we are believers, Qoran has taught me that We can easily be divided if we advocate other than GOD's laws in the name of freedom, the false freedom, and we can ONLY be united if we advocate God's laws and stand for it even when there is only minority to do so.
We have to side with GOD all the time or we would be siding with the opposition/ Satan.
It is not Qoran alone that unites ,it is GOD Alone that unites or otherwise. with it.
You shall hold fast to the rope of GOD, all of you, and do not be divided.
The advocators of righteousness and forbidders of evil, and the keepers of GOD's laws. Give good news to such believers.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.Let me add to your beautiful message something else from my end since we all herald the Message of Allah..
1032 "For that is the Deity, your Lord of the Truth. And what can be after the TRUTH except the FALSEHOOD? So how are you turning away?"
In a nutshell, there is neither compromise nor difference of opinions is acceptable when it comes to the TRUTH of our Lord.. Following the Quran doesn't mean literally that everyone follows the right path which is written in it.. Guidance of Allah is the guidance and the truth and Allah knows who is guided aright. But there could be intention of a person is to follow the Quran so Allah may guide him or her to His Truth and guidance within His book if he or she has taken the wrong option from the Quran....
When we realize the true guidance of Allah from the Quran, just simply surrender to it..
Yes.. keep heralding the message of Allah and take it as our duty and be firm with what you state and from there, your or our job is over and there is no compelling.. But never compromise with falsehood over the truth if you realize that it is falsehood even though they keep reiterating that it is difference of opinion. At the same time always surrender to the truth if you realize that you were in falsehood.
Allah knows what is in our hearts i.e. in our thoughts.. so keep moving on...
as the above verse clearly portrays, TURNING AWAY is the result of following the FALSEHOOD since the TRUTH is not equal to FALSEHOOD... So, my fellow believers, don't TURN AWAY from the TRUTH and embrace to the falsehood..
Peace ...
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Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
I have answered you.
Salaam
No, you refuse to answer simple questions, e.g., who said in 214? You are brainwashed and biased, locking in initial false beliefs and locking out the truth. That's how bad ideologies spread. 'What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.' — Mark Twain
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Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
There can only be one answer according to the context that the verse before 213 gives usTheir minds are heedless. And the transgressors confer secretly "Is he not just a human being like you? Would you accept the magic that is presented to you?"*
لاهِيَةً قُلوبُهُم وَأَسَرُّوا النَّجوَى الَّذينَ ظَلَموا هَل هٰذا إِلّا بَشَرٌ مِثلُكُم أَفَتَأتونَ السِّحرَ وَأَنتُم تُبصِرون214 The messenger said, the human messengerقالَ رَبّى يَعلَمُ القَولَ فِى السَّماءِ وَالأَرضِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
Then the transgressors responded by saying ...in 215بَل قالوا أَضغٰثُ أَحلٰمٍ بَلِ افتَرىٰهُ بَل هُوَ شاعِرٌ فَليَأتِنا بِـٔايَةٍ كَما أُرسِلَ الأَوَّلونَ
Like I said I do not see any issue.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
There can only be one answer according to the context that the verse before 213 gives usTheir minds are heedless. And the transgressors confer secretly "Is he not just a human being like you? Would you accept the magic that is presented to you?"*
لاهِيَةً قُلوبُهُم وَأَسَرُّوا النَّجوَى الَّذينَ ظَلَموا هَل هٰذا إِلّا بَشَرٌ مِثلُكُم أَفَتَأتونَ السِّحرَ وَأَنتُم تُبصِرون214 The messenger said, the human messengerقالَ رَبّى يَعلَمُ القَولَ فِى السَّماءِ وَالأَرضِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
Then the transgressors responded by saying ...in 215بَل قالوا أَضغٰثُ أَحلٰمٍ بَلِ افتَرىٰهُ بَل هُوَ شاعِرٌ فَليَأتِنا بِـٔايَةٍ كَما أُرسِلَ الأَوَّلونَ
Salaam,
Which words translate to what in 213-5?
In the next verse, 215 who is "huwa/he"?
Who is accused of fabrication and called a poet?https//i.postimg.cc/Pxwst2pG/21v4.jpg
214 Qul (Say!) Rabbī Ya`lamu
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/511/page/12r?sura=21&verse=4215
nay said they confused dreams
nay fabricates it
nay huwa (he) poet
so let bring us with sign like sent the former generationsThe context pertains to the time of revelation (obviously!).
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I don't know why this particular point is dragged this far...
May I ask from both of the brothers GL and BH.. Is there any Quran verse that stated Messenger of the Quran SAID / QAALA without using the word 'Messenger' so that it would represent what Messenger actually spoke in a conversation with people before the revelation of the Quran and that was taken by Allah as a Quran verse and revealed to remind that it was what in fact discussed?
I am aware that previous messengers' statements were used as SAID / QAALA, which is fair because they were no more when the Quran was revealed.. And those messengers spoke either using their revelation or the conversation could be away from revealed verses. So it is a story to us but as Quran verse..
in my perception, Quran was revealed to the Messenger to reveal to people ... Allah may have used what was spoken by people to indicate their discourses and may have replied for them to ponder but not the Messenger by himself from his own.. Unless and otherwise the Messenger repeated a previous verse and what he knew of Quran verses..
Just pls answer my first question for my info.. pls..
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Peace BH.
In 213 "Is he not just a human being like you" i.e the messenger receiving the message to them.
@jkhan
The verses here are also telling us what each party said. What the messenger said was what GOD told him in the message. " My Lord knows all the sayings on earth and in the samawat..."
The message easily confirms that this is a fact.
i.e The messenger was speaking form the message that GOD sent.
The verses were telling us about some past comments about the earlier part/s of the revelation that is still being revealed gradually to the messenger.. In this case it is Qoran..
In this case ,Kala is from the message not the messenger own view/opinion.. .The context is clear, it is a narration about the scripture sent to a group, and the human messenger bringing it.
GOD bless you both.
Peace.. -
Peace BH.
In 213 "Is he not just a human being like you" i.e the messenger receiving the message to them.
@jkhan
The verses here are also telling us what each party said. What the messenger said was what GOD told him in the message. " My Lord knows all the sayings on earth and in the samawat..."
The message easily confirms that this is a fact.
i.e The messenger was speaking form the message that GOD sent.
The verses were telling us about some past comments about the earlier part/s of the revelation that is still being revealed gradually to the messenger.. In this case it is Qoran..
In this case ,Kala is from the message not the messenger own view/opinion.. .The context is clear, it is a narration about the scripture sent to a group, and the human messenger bringing it.
GOD bless you both.
Peace..Thank you brother GL...
But still I feel with the flow of verses it is QUL instead of QALA... Anyway it is my understanding... Perhaps you are right..
regarding your explanation... well that doesn't impress within the context.. for example 280 Sahih Int'l
And they said, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say (QUL), "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"
Why in this verse then QUL instead of QALA if what you explained above made sense to you ?
Allah replies for what they already talk about and what they perceive and they think in their hearts.. And this Qul won't even mean that Messenger should go and tell them.. But it is the REPLY of Allah for their sayings and when they read or hear about the verses they would get their reply to what they conceive or used to say..
or verse like 291 Sahih Int'l
And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they said, "We believe in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are believers?"
with the flow of the verse then one should take it to QALA not as QUL...
in my understanding, Messenger was not arguing with them but something was said by them already and for that Allah brought the best reply if they happened to read or listen to the Quran..
Read actual QALA verses in Quran perhaps it may give us an idea how Allah reveal His verses
NOTE by the way ... this is not the topic and this beautiful topic shouldn't be diverted to something else
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Peace jkhan.
For me kALA IS the statement which came from the rasool answering from his own knowledge of the message- GOD s trait .i.e indirectly from GOD.
KUL, the statement comes directly from GOD. What to say exactly.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace jkhan.
For me kALA IS the statement which came from the rasool answering from his own knowledge of the message- GOD s trait .i.e indirectly from GOD.
KUL, the statement comes directly from GOD. What to say exactly.GOD bless you.
Peace.Brother GL Peace..
It's okay and it is in the Quran what you read and what most read.. But question for both of you GL and BH, is there any such verse in the Quran where Messenger SAID/QALA is placed without messenger being a word in the verse? So we can somewhat deduce..
I am not against your view GL btw.. but for whatever reason, I strongly feel that QUL would suit.. And I can't just deduce while it is written in Quran QALA but it is the assumption that HAFS version is right by majority.. because of this reason I researched a bit to know about HAFS and WARSH and it is very strange very minute differences in both ... And WARSH is a minority ..
below are some differences pointed out by some Christians but it is the truth..
https//www.ugr.es/~mreligio/materiales/Green.Samuel_The-different-arabic-versions-of-the-Quran.pdf
After seeing these variations, tbh my mind says that whatever written in WARSH version seems right for me.. just my personal opinion by reading the flow of verses.. But the truth of Allah's revelation remains truth..
I know Brother GL that QUL and QALU have some symmetry and you consider it highly but who knows one QUL verse could be QALA somewhere ....
This SAY and THEY SAID have a connection.. Allah REPLIED to those WHO SAID QALU by QUL / SAY and not by QALA / HE SAID.. so I strongly believe that in verse 214 it is QUL and not QALA...
But GL. remain in your stance until you get convinced and Allah's guidance reaches you with clarity ... and anyway, these won't make any difference to anyone's faith unless they think the Quran has flaws..
Just reflect and research and seek guidance from Allah to reach what exactly was revealed to Prophet Mohamed...No flaws in what was revealed to him though we have many different versions after years elapsed..
But both HAFS and WARSH cannot be right but only one can be right..
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Peace jkhan.
For me, Kala fits the interlock of the complete Qoran- Three letters- Kul will make the count 1 letter short.
In my view ,The letters fit the mathematical frame exactly and Kala fits whether the only time one finds it in Qoran is irrelevant.
For example one can argue in surah Q-Qaf- the word "Ikhwanu Lut" was used where the rest of Qoran uses "Qawmu lut- .
It does not mean it is an error. That is our own reasoning that creates complications/errors sometimes.
But,of course this is my own view and others are entitled to theirs. What matters is we keep learning studying with an open mind.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
