GOD s revelation V Men s fabrications. Truth V Falsehood
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Don't look for Hafs or Warsh
OK
There are hundreds of errors that contradict the logical context in Warsh and Hafs, which also contradict older manuscripts.
If you have a problem with Interlock and the mathematical composition
What does 'interlock,' whatever that means, have to do with the topic? I asked you simple questions about why you use Hafs, which has numerous errors that you consistently avoid answering, just like others on this site who spam the forum with rants, avoid answering, divert, or run away, similar to missionaries, followers of baseless hearsay, numerologists, and others.
Why not answer the two questions as jkhan did? Then we can move on to countless other errors.
Salaam
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Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
I have answered you. I do not have any issue with the Hafs I follow like you claim.
The version of Hafs , the most commonly used and widespread transmission was proven by the mathematical composition of the Quran to be the version that meets all the criteria built in the Quran's mathematical structure as God promised in 159, 8521-22 and 7430-31.
This includes the Rasm, (Orthography) of the Quran as well as the numbering, naming and division of the suras and verses.
For me, I am happy to use this version and I do not see a problem like you do .
Rashad s version is also similar here
https//submission.org/QI
Of course there are few things I may not agree with in his translation ,but the Arabic version fits.I also have no issue with those who use any version if they use Qoran Alone and follow GOD s message in their life, as the errors/variations do not impact on the message nor the guidance which is up to GOD Alone and does not depend on versions. It depends on the sincerity of the individual.
Hope that answers your query.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace All.
I want to clarify a very important point for all of us to note regarding GOD s granted freedom to every human
1099 Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?
This is very much relevant here ,because there will always be differences and this fact should teach us to respect that every human have the right to their chosen freedom.
Since on the personal level we are free to accept our own choices and make our own decisions, then no one should force anyone to believe or otherwise. As long as this person is keeping it for him/herself, is peaceful and does not corrupt the community and fight God's laws, he/she can keep such freedom.
In reality,because of this freedom,there exist countless of versions of any scripture according to the interpretations/understanding /...of the individual.
When I am discussing here , I am aware of this point and do not mind all views, I accept that is normal.At the time of the prophet ,even as only few verses came down, the division started. It is naive of us to discount all possibilities of different interpretations and sides /clans that led to sects and division after that up to our time. The three categories of believers, hypocrites/manipulators/pretenders and disbelievers existed from day 1.
It is irrelevant how many variations or which is the right one. GOD s test requires a criteria and those choosing GOD and submission will be guided towards the truth eventually.However,if we are believers, Qoran has taught me that We can easily be divided if we advocate other than GOD's laws in the name of freedom, the false freedom, and we can ONLY be united if we advocate God's laws and stand for it even when there is only minority to do so.
We have to side with GOD all the time or we would be siding with the opposition/ Satan.
It is not Qoran alone that unites ,it is GOD Alone that unites or otherwise. with it.
You shall hold fast to the rope of GOD, all of you, and do not be divided.
The advocators of righteousness and forbidders of evil, and the keepers of GOD's laws. Give good news to such believers.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace All.
I want to clarify a very important point for all of us to note regarding GOD s granted freedom to every human
1099 Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?
This is very much relevant here ,because there will always be differences and this fact should teach us to respect that every human have the right to their chosen freedom.
Since on the personal level we are free to accept our own choices and make our own decisions, then no one should force anyone to believe or otherwise. As long as this person is keeping it for him/herself, is peaceful and does not corrupt the community and fight God's laws, he/she can keep such freedom.
In reality,because of this freedom,there exist countless of versions of any scripture according to the interpretations/understanding /...of the individual.
When I am discussing here , I am aware of this point and do not mind all views, I accept that is normal.At the time of the prophet ,even as only few verses came down, the division started. It is naive of us to discount all possibilities of different interpretations and sides /clans that led to sects and division after that up to our time. The three categories of believers, hypocrites/manipulators/pretenders and disbelievers existed from day 1.
It is irrelevant how many variations or which is the right one. GOD s test requires a criteria and those choosing GOD and submission will be guided towards the truth eventually.However,if we are believers, Qoran has taught me that We can easily be divided if we advocate other than GOD's laws in the name of freedom, the false freedom, and we can ONLY be united if we advocate God's laws and stand for it even when there is only minority to do so.
We have to side with GOD all the time or we would be siding with the opposition/ Satan.
It is not Qoran alone that unites ,it is GOD Alone that unites or otherwise. with it.
You shall hold fast to the rope of GOD, all of you, and do not be divided.
The advocators of righteousness and forbidders of evil, and the keepers of GOD's laws. Give good news to such believers.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.Let me add to your beautiful message something else from my end since we all herald the Message of Allah..
1032 "For that is the Deity, your Lord of the Truth. And what can be after the TRUTH except the FALSEHOOD? So how are you turning away?"
In a nutshell, there is neither compromise nor difference of opinions is acceptable when it comes to the TRUTH of our Lord.. Following the Quran doesn't mean literally that everyone follows the right path which is written in it.. Guidance of Allah is the guidance and the truth and Allah knows who is guided aright. But there could be intention of a person is to follow the Quran so Allah may guide him or her to His Truth and guidance within His book if he or she has taken the wrong option from the Quran....
When we realize the true guidance of Allah from the Quran, just simply surrender to it..
Yes.. keep heralding the message of Allah and take it as our duty and be firm with what you state and from there, your or our job is over and there is no compelling.. But never compromise with falsehood over the truth if you realize that it is falsehood even though they keep reiterating that it is difference of opinion. At the same time always surrender to the truth if you realize that you were in falsehood.
Allah knows what is in our hearts i.e. in our thoughts.. so keep moving on...
as the above verse clearly portrays, TURNING AWAY is the result of following the FALSEHOOD since the TRUTH is not equal to FALSEHOOD... So, my fellow believers, don't TURN AWAY from the TRUTH and embrace to the falsehood..
Peace ...
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Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
I have answered you.
Salaam
No, you refuse to answer simple questions, e.g., who said in 214? You are brainwashed and biased, locking in initial false beliefs and locking out the truth. That's how bad ideologies spread. 'What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.' — Mark Twain
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Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
There can only be one answer according to the context that the verse before 213 gives usTheir minds are heedless. And the transgressors confer secretly "Is he not just a human being like you? Would you accept the magic that is presented to you?"*
لاهِيَةً قُلوبُهُم وَأَسَرُّوا النَّجوَى الَّذينَ ظَلَموا هَل هٰذا إِلّا بَشَرٌ مِثلُكُم أَفَتَأتونَ السِّحرَ وَأَنتُم تُبصِرون214 The messenger said, the human messengerقالَ رَبّى يَعلَمُ القَولَ فِى السَّماءِ وَالأَرضِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
Then the transgressors responded by saying ...in 215بَل قالوا أَضغٰثُ أَحلٰمٍ بَلِ افتَرىٰهُ بَل هُوَ شاعِرٌ فَليَأتِنا بِـٔايَةٍ كَما أُرسِلَ الأَوَّلونَ
Like I said I do not see any issue.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
There can only be one answer according to the context that the verse before 213 gives usTheir minds are heedless. And the transgressors confer secretly "Is he not just a human being like you? Would you accept the magic that is presented to you?"*
لاهِيَةً قُلوبُهُم وَأَسَرُّوا النَّجوَى الَّذينَ ظَلَموا هَل هٰذا إِلّا بَشَرٌ مِثلُكُم أَفَتَأتونَ السِّحرَ وَأَنتُم تُبصِرون214 The messenger said, the human messengerقالَ رَبّى يَعلَمُ القَولَ فِى السَّماءِ وَالأَرضِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ
Then the transgressors responded by saying ...in 215بَل قالوا أَضغٰثُ أَحلٰمٍ بَلِ افتَرىٰهُ بَل هُوَ شاعِرٌ فَليَأتِنا بِـٔايَةٍ كَما أُرسِلَ الأَوَّلونَ
Salaam,
Which words translate to what in 213-5?
In the next verse, 215 who is "huwa/he"?
Who is accused of fabrication and called a poet?https//i.postimg.cc/Pxwst2pG/21v4.jpg
214 Qul (Say!) Rabbī Ya`lamu
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/511/page/12r?sura=21&verse=4215
nay said they confused dreams
nay fabricates it
nay huwa (he) poet
so let bring us with sign like sent the former generationsThe context pertains to the time of revelation (obviously!).
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I don't know why this particular point is dragged this far...
May I ask from both of the brothers GL and BH.. Is there any Quran verse that stated Messenger of the Quran SAID / QAALA without using the word 'Messenger' so that it would represent what Messenger actually spoke in a conversation with people before the revelation of the Quran and that was taken by Allah as a Quran verse and revealed to remind that it was what in fact discussed?
I am aware that previous messengers' statements were used as SAID / QAALA, which is fair because they were no more when the Quran was revealed.. And those messengers spoke either using their revelation or the conversation could be away from revealed verses. So it is a story to us but as Quran verse..
in my perception, Quran was revealed to the Messenger to reveal to people ... Allah may have used what was spoken by people to indicate their discourses and may have replied for them to ponder but not the Messenger by himself from his own.. Unless and otherwise the Messenger repeated a previous verse and what he knew of Quran verses..
Just pls answer my first question for my info.. pls..
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Peace BH.
In 213 "Is he not just a human being like you" i.e the messenger receiving the message to them.
@jkhan
The verses here are also telling us what each party said. What the messenger said was what GOD told him in the message. " My Lord knows all the sayings on earth and in the samawat..."
The message easily confirms that this is a fact.
i.e The messenger was speaking form the message that GOD sent.
The verses were telling us about some past comments about the earlier part/s of the revelation that is still being revealed gradually to the messenger.. In this case it is Qoran..
In this case ,Kala is from the message not the messenger own view/opinion.. .The context is clear, it is a narration about the scripture sent to a group, and the human messenger bringing it.
GOD bless you both.
Peace.. -
Peace BH.
In 213 "Is he not just a human being like you" i.e the messenger receiving the message to them.
@jkhan
The verses here are also telling us what each party said. What the messenger said was what GOD told him in the message. " My Lord knows all the sayings on earth and in the samawat..."
The message easily confirms that this is a fact.
i.e The messenger was speaking form the message that GOD sent.
The verses were telling us about some past comments about the earlier part/s of the revelation that is still being revealed gradually to the messenger.. In this case it is Qoran..
In this case ,Kala is from the message not the messenger own view/opinion.. .The context is clear, it is a narration about the scripture sent to a group, and the human messenger bringing it.
GOD bless you both.
Peace..Thank you brother GL...
But still I feel with the flow of verses it is QUL instead of QALA... Anyway it is my understanding... Perhaps you are right..
regarding your explanation... well that doesn't impress within the context.. for example 280 Sahih Int'l
And they said, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say (QUL), "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"
Why in this verse then QUL instead of QALA if what you explained above made sense to you ?
Allah replies for what they already talk about and what they perceive and they think in their hearts.. And this Qul won't even mean that Messenger should go and tell them.. But it is the REPLY of Allah for their sayings and when they read or hear about the verses they would get their reply to what they conceive or used to say..
or verse like 291 Sahih Int'l
And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they said, "We believe in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are believers?"
with the flow of the verse then one should take it to QALA not as QUL...
in my understanding, Messenger was not arguing with them but something was said by them already and for that Allah brought the best reply if they happened to read or listen to the Quran..
Read actual QALA verses in Quran perhaps it may give us an idea how Allah reveal His verses
NOTE by the way ... this is not the topic and this beautiful topic shouldn't be diverted to something else
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Peace jkhan.
For me kALA IS the statement which came from the rasool answering from his own knowledge of the message- GOD s trait .i.e indirectly from GOD.
KUL, the statement comes directly from GOD. What to say exactly.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace jkhan.
For me kALA IS the statement which came from the rasool answering from his own knowledge of the message- GOD s trait .i.e indirectly from GOD.
KUL, the statement comes directly from GOD. What to say exactly.GOD bless you.
Peace.Brother GL Peace..
It's okay and it is in the Quran what you read and what most read.. But question for both of you GL and BH, is there any such verse in the Quran where Messenger SAID/QALA is placed without messenger being a word in the verse? So we can somewhat deduce..
I am not against your view GL btw.. but for whatever reason, I strongly feel that QUL would suit.. And I can't just deduce while it is written in Quran QALA but it is the assumption that HAFS version is right by majority.. because of this reason I researched a bit to know about HAFS and WARSH and it is very strange very minute differences in both ... And WARSH is a minority ..
below are some differences pointed out by some Christians but it is the truth..
https//www.ugr.es/~mreligio/materiales/Green.Samuel_The-different-arabic-versions-of-the-Quran.pdf
After seeing these variations, tbh my mind says that whatever written in WARSH version seems right for me.. just my personal opinion by reading the flow of verses.. But the truth of Allah's revelation remains truth..
I know Brother GL that QUL and QALU have some symmetry and you consider it highly but who knows one QUL verse could be QALA somewhere ....
This SAY and THEY SAID have a connection.. Allah REPLIED to those WHO SAID QALU by QUL / SAY and not by QALA / HE SAID.. so I strongly believe that in verse 214 it is QUL and not QALA...
But GL. remain in your stance until you get convinced and Allah's guidance reaches you with clarity ... and anyway, these won't make any difference to anyone's faith unless they think the Quran has flaws..
Just reflect and research and seek guidance from Allah to reach what exactly was revealed to Prophet Mohamed...No flaws in what was revealed to him though we have many different versions after years elapsed..
But both HAFS and WARSH cannot be right but only one can be right..
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Peace jkhan.
For me, Kala fits the interlock of the complete Qoran- Three letters- Kul will make the count 1 letter short.
In my view ,The letters fit the mathematical frame exactly and Kala fits whether the only time one finds it in Qoran is irrelevant.
For example one can argue in surah Q-Qaf- the word "Ikhwanu Lut" was used where the rest of Qoran uses "Qawmu lut- .
It does not mean it is an error. That is our own reasoning that creates complications/errors sometimes.
But,of course this is my own view and others are entitled to theirs. What matters is we keep learning studying with an open mind.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace jkhan.
For me, Kala fits the interlock of the complete Qoran- Three letters- Kul will make the count 1 letter short.
In my view ,The letters fit the mathematical frame exactly and Kala fits whether the only time one finds it in Qoran is irrelevant.
For example one can argue in surah Q-Qaf- the word "Ikhwanu Lut" was used where the rest of Qoran uses "Qawmu lut- .
It does not mean it is an error. That is our own reasoning that creates complications/errors sometimes.
But,of course this is my own view and others are entitled to theirs. What matters is we keep learning studying with an open mind.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace GL...
I don't want to stress you on this subject.. After all it is no-one's fault because that's the Quran which is available Hafs or Warsh mainly.. Whoever chooses whatever the version it's not a big deal.. let's end it..But I am unclear on your first para.. Kala fits the interlock of the complete Qoran- Three letters- Kul will make the count 1 letter short.
Can you explain what it is pls.. I am afraid that I am not getting it..thank you..
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Peace jkhan.
The count of all the letters from the first letter " B" of verse 1 -بِسمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحمٰنِ الرَّحيمِ- to the last letter "S" of verse -مِنَ الجِنَّةِ وَالنّاس-.with the order of the Surahs as is the current arrangement fits code 19.
Yes, like you said, the main task is to follow the message- by doing/living it- that is in whichever version one uses.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Salaam,
Some are minor, others are major. See the video posted earlier on the chain of transmitters. You can't have seven or more permutations of 1,000 words, as they don't make sense in context, contradict basic language rules, or show inconsistencies (e.g., lost/won the Romans, wipes/wash the feet, missing words, etc.), and claim all are correct because it was revealed that way.
Do we have a refernce artifact compiled that actually shows all of the differences (the major ones as you mentioned there are) to be able to know if those actually changed the understanding of the underlying verses to an extent that merely is no more to be overlooked? I understand the minor changes examples quoted in this thread for example Qul or Qaal or yalamoon but to me these are not changing the intent of the verse.
It would be nice to have all those major changes compiled and listed.thank you
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Peace all.
Here is the argument of traditional Islam to uphold both Qoran and "Sunnah and Hadith"
"Both Qoran and "Sunnah and Hadith" have been transmitted to us by the same people and preserved for us equally orally and in writing. To reject one is also to reject the other"
Salam
There's an easier way to disprove that arguement We have the names of the Quran transmitters and they are not the same people as the hadith transmitters. Their names are mentioned in the books by al-Dani, ibn Mujahid, ibn al-Jazari and others.
In fact, some transmitters were weak in hadith but were accepted as a Quran's transmitter, like Abu Abd al-Rahman al-Sulami who was part of Hafs isnad. That would make the Hafs recitation inauthentic according to them and all the Quran's in his isnad today. A weak Quran is the most popular Quran today? Is it a coincidence?
About the verses
- They were clearly isolated and not making a general statement to everyone.
- The Prophet was living and interacting with them and exposing them.
And to counter your conclusion, they can say the Quran tells people to go beyond its verses. They aren't rejecting the Quran, they're following it.
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Peace Euphoric.
Thanks for your take. Let me quote you"In fact, some transmitters were weak in hadith but were accepted as a Quran's transmitter, like Abu Abd al-Rahman al-Sulami who was part of Hafs isnad. That would make the Hafs recitation inauthentic according to them and all the Quran's in his isnad today. A weak Quran is the most popular Quran today? Is it a coincidence?"
You mean there was no Hadith to transmit when Qoran started . In fact there was no Hadith up to at least the last Khalifa.
They must have all been "weak" in transmitting Hadith in this case , actually they were transmitting Zero Hadith. Yet they were transmitting Qoran. In that case disregard their Qoran also.After that , the Qoran was already in the form of a book, The transmission was completed actually by the prophet. All the verses were already written down by him and under his instructions, collected into a book after his death.
Or did the prophet leave a collection of writings called hadith for us from himself to be passed on? i.e authored by him.
Besides,is Qoran not enough since GOD calls it the best Hadith? Then why would anyone want another hadith if they have the best hadith available to them?
But people still keep insisting to follow other hadiths and questioning the value and sole authority of Qoran
Are you questioning this Hadith ?
أَفَمِن هٰذَا الحَديثِ تَعجَبونَ
Are you laughing, instead of crying?
وَتَضحَكونَ وَلا تَبكونَ
Are you insisting on your ways?
وَأَنتُم سٰمِدونَWe have to question men s Hadiths. Because GOD said in Qoran that He has not authorised or given any partnership for others to write hadith for His religion?
And He confirmed for us that His words are complete in truth and justice and that He completed His religion with Qoran Alone for the prophet and the believers,. That is what was supposed to be passed on to those after him.. No more ,no less.
And for sure I will not dare question GOD and His best hadith.
So each to their hadith/s .
GOD bless you.
Peace -
But question for both of you GL and BH, is there any such verse in the Quran where Messenger SAID/QALA is placed without messenger being a word in the verse? So we can somewhat deduce..
At the time of revelation in the context of 241-7, there was only one messenger. The Quran always uses 'say,' never 'he said,' and the person speaking is always identified.
But both HAFS and WARSH cannot be right but only one can be right..
Then there are others each with chains of narrations to today.
Warsh 90% majority only few hundred years ago Hafs in minority.It would be nice to have all those major changes compiled and listed.
See this site along with videos https//erquran.org/
Encyclopedia of the readings of the Qur’anhttps//erquran.org/pages/encyclopedia/readings
Variant Types (1)
https//youtu.be/-g-l7Mt7O0kVariant Types (2)
https//youtu.be/66g3ae5iancNumerous spelling variations (thousands with vowels), with some words different, added or missing. Additionally, there are those who claim verses were abrogated, or numerologists who remove verses and count letters, such as Qaf totaling 7034, etc. In any letter in any book, the expected multiples are approximately 1/19, e.g., chapters and #Qaf.
14 - 57
26 - 133
32 - 38
42 - 57
47 - 38
50 - 57
61 - 19Likewise, in the earliest or oldest manuscripts, all 29 initials were together with the next verse, and 20 of 29 were broken out as separate verses hundreds of years later, e.g.
501 Qāf Wa Al-Qur'āni Al-Majīdi (Estimated date 1204)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/1966/page/14r?sura=50&verse=1https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/32/page/42v?sura=50&verse=1
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/59/page/184r?sura=50&verse=1
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At the time of revelation in the context of 241-7, there was only one messenger. The Quran always uses 'say,' never 'he said,' and the person speaking is always identified.
Then there are others each with chains of narrations to today.
Warsh 90% majority only few hundred years ago Hafs in minority.See this site along with videos https//erquran.org/
Encyclopedia of the readings of the Qur’anhttps//erquran.org/pages/encyclopedia/readings
Variant Types (1)
https//youtu.be/-g-l7Mt7O0kVariant Types (2)
https//youtu.be/66g3ae5iancNumerous spelling variations (thousands with vowels), with some words replaced, added or missing. Additionally, there are those who claim verses were abrogated, or numerologists who remove verses and count letters, such as Qaf totaling 7034, etc. In any common letter in any book or news article, the expected multiples are approximately 1/19, e.g., chapters and #Qaf.
14 - 57
26 - 133
32 - 38
42 - 57
47 - 38
50 - 57
61 - 19Likewise, in the earliest or oldest manuscripts, all 29 initials were together with the next verse, and 20 of 29 were broken out as separate verses hundreds of years later, e.g.
501 Qāf Wa Al-Qur'āni Al-Majīdi (Estimated date 1204)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/1966/page/14r?sura=50&verse=1https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/32/page/42v?sura=50&verse=1
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/59/page/184r?sura=50&verse=1
Hello Bajram,
Maybe I have missed the point of your discussion. Are you suggesting that the Quran we have today is not exactly the same as what was revealed to the Prophet to what %?, and that there are errors in its compilation, including minor and major changes in wording? This is what I can deduce so far from your replies.Beyond this, what are you trying to convey? Please summarize the key takeaways from your research. Do you believe in any part of the existing Quran, and if so, to what extent do you consider it to be correct? Also, could you share your own beliefs regarding the Quran and its authenticity?
