ARE GHAYB AND JANNA, EXACTLY THE SAME?
-
salam PB (if i can call you that for short),
I understand your position and that you are stuck relying on English sources, which besides Lane's lexicon, are fairly limited. Problem with Lane is that its quite expensive.
But I'm sure you know my opinion of QD... and I'm sure he has many correct things in the book, but unfortunately this is another example of a mistake in QD.
The lexicons such as Lisaan ul Arab specifically say that ghayb INCLUDES that which you can think of but do not see... basically, the only condition is that it is not seen. The exact phrase in Lisaan is "maa ghaaba 3anil 3oyoon wa in kaana muhassalan fee quloob." That which is not seen but perceived by the heart/mind.
I suspect what AU Omar did in QD, is simply note the conventional meaning. And since conventionally, ghayb has come to mean the supernatural/infinite such as Allah, he has put in his own meaning of beyond cognizance.
Which leads me to believe that despite his claims he never actually used the classic lexicons, or perhaps just mostly ignored them in favor or pushing his opinions.
The negative effect of pushing this idea of ghayb, is that eemaan bil ghayb simply comes to mean unperceived supernatural beings... without any emphasis on the REAL world for which the Quran was revealed. Eemaan bil ghayb really means to believe in the fruitfulness of implementing the Quran message (because these fruits are not manifest immediately, it takes courage and patience).
So about the difference between janna and ghayb, my "feeling" is that ghayb is often used in the context of something that is hidden now but will be manifest later... and janna something used to describe a thing that is by nature hidden, i.e. the hidden aspect is something within the nature of that thing.
I'll have to think more about this though.
-
PEACE, SHUAIB,
So about the difference between janna and ghayb, my "feeling" is that ghayb is often used in the context of something that is hidden now but will be manifest later... and janna something used to describe a thing that is by nature hidden, i.e. the hidden aspect is something within the nature of that thing.
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that, ghayb, while hidden, will, at some point manifest, but janna, remains hidden and will not manifest?
Do you think you can post the Lane's definition of ghayb abd janna? If you are familiar with scanning.
-
salam PB,
sorry, i actually do not have access to Lane's. I believe br. Wakas does though. You might ask him.
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that, ghayb, while hidden, will, at some point manifest, but janna, remains hidden and will not manifest?
Well kind of. What I am saying is that when you describe something as jinn, you are saying that part of the NATURE of that thing is to be hidden, say for example extinct species. Extinct species are called jinn precisely because they are extinct and now hidden. It is an INTRINSIC value.
Ghayb, for example, in the context of the fruits of labor, are hidden but that is a temporary phenomenon, and it will lator become manifest or shaahid... like when passing on a hill, you can't see what is beyond the hill, not because it is a NATURE of that thing to be hidden, but because it has not manifested yet. Being hidden is NOT an INSTRINSIC value in this case.
It's admittedly a subtle point, but if you bring together some verses where ghayb is used and jinn is used it can become more clear. Like i said, you asked a tough question!
-
Peace be upon you all,
The Ghayb is the unpercievable. When one meditates deeply (salaat) one can experience that there is a part of you that PERCIEVES things(thoughts/emotions/physical objects, etc) but THAT which PERCIEVES , CANNOT ITSELF be percieved. So it is IMPERCIEVEABLE, CONCEALED.
This is the state of NOTHINGNESS where Nothing Moves(Nirvana), or as the Chinese say (Wu Ji), or as the Kemetans say (Amen), etc.
Everything comes from this state of Energy?Matter that is NOT DIFFERENTIATED. It is only when we start to differentiate that we can PERCIEVE OBJECTS because they are not seperated(sects) from the WHOLE.
So Ghayb is that which cannot be percieved or differentiated.
Janna however is that which is COVERED/HIDDEN, but you can still differentiate amongst them. As was said above, THOUGHTS are OBJECTS because they can be PERCIEVED, although not SEEN VISABLY, like WIND.
-
salam idolfree,
its been a while, hopefully youre doing well!
Thanks for your interesting comments. Though the things you mention sound nice and I know you follow a philosophy of trying to link various religions... your meaning for ghayb is not substantiated from the Quran or from the Arabic language.
I'd like to see some proofs for your ideas though. It may generate some discussion.
Incidentally, be a little clearer about the term "perceive." I think you mean mentally conceived right? Perceive often is used specifically for perception i.e. sensory perception. Conceive more precisely means mental rather than physical.
Remember the definition of ghayb I gave. it is something that can be mentally conceived but at that point is not physically perceived.
wassalam
-
Peace be upon youn Shuiab,
its been a while, hopefully youre doing well!
I am peaceful thank you, I hope peace is upon you as well D
Thanks for your interesting comments. Though the things you mention sound nice and I know you follow a philosophy of trying to link various religions... your meaning for ghayb is not substantiated from the Quran or from the Arabic language.
Unseen is not substantiated?
I'd like to see some proofs for your ideas though. It may generate some discussion.
I'll try to provide some examples in my next post.
Incidentally, be a little clearer about the term "perceive." I think you mean mentally conceived right? Perceive often is used specifically for perception i.e. sensory perception. Conceive more precisely means mental rather than physical.
Yes, thanks for the correction.
Remember the definition of ghayb I gave. it is something that can be mentally conceived but at that point is not physically perceived.
Please also provide some examples for your understanding as well. I would like to keep this debate going so we can find the proper understanding. I will try to post again tonight.
-
PEACE, WAKAS, SHUAIB AND IDOL,
Are the Jinn...of the ghaba or janna?
-
salams guys
thanks for posting that wakas. actually, i realized too on reading further on the root that even though at one point it claimed that ghayb refers to that which is not perceived but can be mentally conceived, it also says that it can also refer to something that cannot be conceived. So basically, anything hidden whether conceived or not conceived.
salam idolfree,
Well i have to take it back now partially because i realize that ghayb can also refer to something that cannot be conceived.
BUT, in the Quran there are points where the "ghayb" at least in part, are revealed to the Prophet (344), and apparently can relate to unknown/lost historal events, so ghayb doesn't necessarily have to do with the infinite. 1149 is another example.
It may be that since the meaning of ghayb can be broad, you have to closely examine the context to exact the proper meanings. For example, in 23 because the context is for those people who want to succeed, it makes sense to me that ghayb at least in part be interpreted as the unseen results on one's actions. (If everyone could see the unseen detrimental or beneficial effects of their actions, the world would be very different!)
this obviously is a complex topic! again, as far as jinn being part of ghayb.. like i said, traditionalists will say yes.. but i dont think there's any support for that in the Quran, or linguistically. jinn means hidden from the eyes, but i think the word jinn emphasizes the quality of being hidden, whereas in ghayb, being hidden is a circumstance.
wassalam
-
Peace be upon you Shuiab,
BUT, in the Quran there are points where the "ghayb" at least in part, are revealed to the Prophet (344), and apparently can relate to unknown/lost historal events, so ghayb doesn't necessarily have to do with the infinite. 1149 is another example.
Yes, everything manifests from Al Ghayb, the unseen. We come from the infinite to the finite. Everything begins from that same source where energy and matter are not formed.
Anyway, yes, the "ghayb" is revealed from time to time to others, but then it ceases to be "ghayb".
