A GREAT CONTRADICTION
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Salaams priest , All,
Priest said"
With all of this said, what details then, pertinent to living a righteous life, hence, being able to successfully pass the test of conduct, are not to be found in Al-Quran, necessitating, seeking them out in extra-Quranic tainted bodies of work i.e sunnah and or hadith?
With this in mind then, how is the following contradicton reconciled
Allah claims that His Quran IS fully detailed/complete. "
keeping in mind that the ayah is somewhat mistranslated
002.177
YUSUFALI It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.And the righteous way is expalined at other places in the quran isn't it?
Or did you mean something else priest to what i have said.
Regards.
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peace All,
After reviewing the occurrences of fassala vb. (II)
697, 698, 6119, 6126, 752, 1712
655, 732, 7174, 911, 105, 1024, 132, 3028,
111, 413, 4144
6154, 7145, 1037, 12111, 1712
6114, 7133
It seems that it does not mean 'detailed'. See 4144, 7133 for example.
It means to make distinct, distinguish, clarify.
salat=prayer is still incorrect however.
Wakas
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Salaams All,
After reviewing the occurrences of fassala vb. (II)
697, 698, 6119, 6126, 752, 1712
655, 732, 7174, 911, 105, 1024, 132, 3028,
111, 413, 4144
6154, 7145, 1037, 12111, 1712
6114, 7133
It seems that it does not mean 'detailed'. See 4144, 7133 for example.
It means to make distinct, distinguish, clarify.
Concise appears to me to be the closest to the meaning of Fussilatt. Because the Quran words are not only distinct, but also concise to the ultimate, and that is one of it's miracles, as no creature can come with such limited words that have such endless meanings.
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salams guys,
you're right. the stumper question to traditionalists is if salat is so important, why are the details not listed in the quran.
but the stumper question to metaphoralists (made up word, ppl who wish to turn everything in the Quran into a metaphor and philosophy), is why are some details listed in the Quran and not others... islamic penal code is PARTIALLY there... islamic economic system details is partially there... If free-minders just stick their heads in the sand and pretend the details are all there, you fool only yourself.
br wakas, is there anyone on free-minds that still assumes that salat=prayer?
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peace All,
Concise appears to me to be the closest to the meaning of Fussilatt.
'concise' is a poor choice of meaning for 'fassala'. It does not fit well, unlike 'distinguish'. This can easily be seen if one goes through the occurrences.
br wakas, is there anyone on free-minds that still assumes that salat=prayer?
Some still do, but its a minority.
Wakas
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
semantics is partially a problem here. By laws I dont mean like laws of nature or laws of allah... maybe a better word is APPLICATIONS. But I already explained in my post to djcreation, exactly what i meant by law and principle.
You continue to say one thing and then change it and say that you didn't mean this, rather, you meant that and it's all about semantics. You are all over the sandbox, Shuaib. The question is not do I understand, but do you understand what your own position is?
3 separate people have approached you who know Arabic, and told you that fasala does not mean detailed! I could scan the pages but lisaan al-arab is on the net! the links been posted here already! or did you forget?
What three people are they? Hussein and Taj, are commited to using the sunnah and hadith as sources of guidance, so their perspective on fasala is extremely biased. Who else disagrees with me?
If you don't know Arabic, don't you have the slightest feeling that you are biting off more than you can chew? This is a SERIOUS problem with your intellectual integrity here.
I don't know the Spanish language either, but I know what "hombre" and several other Spanish terms mean. Please don't use the "language" card.
I feel like smacking my head when you say stuff like this.. it just shows how little you are actually reading of my post. I have said that ALL the principles are there. The APPLICATIONS/laws are NOT all there (only some). And then I gave the example of punishment for drinking... ring any bells yet??
How do you differentiate a Quranic law from a Quranic principle, are they not one in the same thing? Can you show a Quranic law that isn't, at the same time, a Quranic principle? Webster and Merriam, it appears, agrees with me on this
Main Entry PRINCIPLE a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption a rule or code of conduct.
Main EntryLAW a principle governing action or procedure.
I agree with you that Allah has not detailed evey aspect of our lives, this is not my position nor has it ever been. For example, Allah has prescribed the punishment for fahusha/indecency of zina, however, for other expressions of fahusha, He has left that up to us...that is the GUIDANCE/FULL DETAILS on fahusha. Do you see? Now, given the following definition for guidance, what, concerning the guidance on fahusha, is not fully detailed in Allah's Quran?
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world, so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct, so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain destiny of Paradise.
Haven't I said it since the beginning over and over? WE decide! OH MY GOD!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! Yes, based on our imaan, our sincere knowledge, our research, science humanities art, everything is put on the line... and we make the call to apply a principle one way or another... and if we are wrong, we fail... and we deserve to fail. HEAVEN DONT COME EASY! Dont expect to avoid hell by just being led around on a leash!!
You're talking about the application of laws/principles, and I'm talking about the laws/principles being fully detailed from 11 to 1146, so that they can be applied.
Peace and keep coming.
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PEACE, WAKAS, SHUAIB, TAJ, MZ357, ANDYA,
Thanks for chiming in, Wakas.
Regarding fasala, Wakas, stated
It means to make distinct, distinguish, clarify.
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar, regarding bana and fasala, writes
Main Entry BANA to be distinct and separate far away remote from clear obvious explain to be clear and easily understood.
Main Entry FASALA to set apart separate distinguish set a limit depart decide divide into parts expatiate into detail make clear distinct narrate a thing with all its particulars.
1712 We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail.
1712 WajaAAalna allayla wannahara ayatayni famahawna ayata allayli wajaAAalna ayata annahari mubsiratan litabtaghoo fadlan min rabbikum walitaAAlamoo AAadada assineena walhisaba wakulla shayin fassalnahu tafseela.
Given the above ayat, and the definitions of fasala and bana, it is my understanding that, Allah, is stating, relative to mankind's guidance, just how detailed His Quran really is. It's difficult for me to so see how the guidance of Al-Quran can be clear, yet, not be fully detailed? While fasala means "to make clear"-at the same time- this word must also include detailed.
What is your rendering of the following
fassalnahu tafseela
It appears to mean...detail the details or explain the explanation, which, in reality, means to...fully detail.
Looking forward to your replies
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Salaams all,
which details can't be found in the quran?if that is what we are being asked.
God Bless.
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salams pb,
This is going to be one of my last posts to you because all we've done is gone in circles. It's a total waste of time.
You continue to say one thing and then change it ...
What I am doing is trying to find the best words to explain to you my points.. my words wouldn't change if you could just understand. You got confused with the word LAWS (because i CLEARLY said that I intended it to mean specific INJUNCTIONS like penal laws, inheritance laws etc, yet you confused that and started saying "are you saying that allah's laws change?") it's statements like that, that cause me to step back and change wording that might be easier to understand or more accurate. my essential position, to any reasonable person with depth, it should be obvious, has always been the same. changing terminology doesn't mean my position changed!
Changing the term from law to application does nothing to change my stance. The fact you claim so, just proves how illogical and superficial your thinking is.
What three people are they?
taj, myself, and hlatif. NOW you can add a fourth, br wakas.
Yet you have the audacity to pretend that you have some deeper grasp of Arabic than we do, without actually knowing Arabic!! It's truly a VERY dishonest thing you are doing.. and purely on the basis of this I am ready to terminate the discussion.
How can I discuss fruitfully with someone so intellectually dishonest??How do you differentiate a Quranic law from a Quranic principle, are they not one in the same thing? Can you show a Quranic law that isn't, at the same time, a Quranic principle?
Go read my posts.. I have explained everything and you clearly have understood nothing.
You're talking about the application of laws/principles, and I'm talking about the laws/principles being fully detailed from 11 to 1146, so that they can be applied.
if you had actually READ my posts... you would have realized that from post #1 I have ALWAYS claimed that the principles were complete. I simply was trying to say that the APPLICATIONS/ACTUAL LEGAL RULES i.e. LAWS (like do not speed, do this and you get lashed, this much income tax, etc) are not all there... drinking is fuhasha, zina is fuhasha... zina is specifically punished...
WHY NO MENTION of punishment for drinking in the Quran?
You have ENTIRELY ignored this question of mine from the very first post. You have yet to answer this question.
It's obvious to me that you have not thought very deeply or are not capable of deeper thought on this issue. To not know Arabic, and to turn a blind eye to the Arabic lexicon evidence presented to you, is absolutely dishonest. And to claim all the details are in the Quran when numerous things are NOT there such as Islamic penal code... is just plain silly.
There is no further point in continuing the discussion unless you have something of depth to say.
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PEACE, WAKAS,
peace PB, all,
I would translate the following 'fassalnahu tafseela' as 'explained distinctly/clearly' or 'explained in a distinguishing/clarifying manner' or 'distinctly/clearly explained'. Wakas
Thanks for the response. Now, given your understanding of fassalnahu tafseela, how is something explained in a distinguishing and clarifying manner, not at the same time, be fully detailed in that explanation?
Given that GUIDANCE/Al-Quran is the instruction on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , what, then, concerning it , relative to your understanding of fassalnahu tafseela, is or can be lacking in details?
Peace.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
I'm going to make this really easy for you to grasp so that we stop going in circles.
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks
53...This day have I perfected for you your Deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as your Deen..
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
GUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Now, here is the question and it will only require a yes or no response . Given the above ayats and defintions
Are ALL of the NECESSARY/COMPLETE details, RELATIVE TO MANKIND'S GUIDANCE , found in Allah's Quran. Yes or no? I cannot make it any simpler than this.
As always, looking forward to your reply.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Are ALL of the NECESSARY/COMPLETE details, RELATIVE TO MANKIND'S GUIDANCE , found in Allah's Quran. Yes or no? I cannot make it any simpler than this
Here's an example, lets say that I am with a friend and he pulls out a gun to kill a young boy, what should I do? Do I try to stop him, do I call the authorities? Please keep the response short to avoid a long post.
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peace PB,
Thanks for the response. Now, given your understanding of fassalnahu tafseela, how is something explained in a distinguishing and clarifying manner, not at the same time, be fully detailed in that explanation?
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose. That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do.
My view of 'fassala=distinguish' can co-exist with such a view. Something can be explained in a distinguishing/clarifying/distinct manner by the presentation/style/content. For example, the distinguishing/clarifying way 'al quran' uses internal tafsir/explanation of its concepts/terms. The way it uses contrast, the way it uses examples/parables to explain its points etc.
It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you PB,
Are ALL of the NECESSARY/COMPLETE details, RELATIVE TO MANKIND'S GUIDANCE , found in Allah's Quran. Yes or no? I cannot make it any simpler than this
Here's an example, lets say that I am with a friend and he pulls out a gun to kill a young boy, what should I do? Do I try to stop him, do I call the authorities? Please keep the response short to avoid a long post.
475 And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.
There's your guidance.
Peace.
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PEACE, WAKAS,
PRIEST Thanks for the response. Now, given your understanding of fassalnahu tafseela, how is something explained in a distinguishing and clarifying manner, and, not at the same time, be fully detailed in that explanation?
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide. That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do.
Exactly right, hence, there is no need for extra-Quranic so-called "sources of guidance".
My view of 'fassala=distinguish' can co-exist with such a view. Something can be explained in a distinguishing/clarifying/distinct manner by the presentation/style/content. For example, the distinguishing/clarifying way 'al quran' uses internal tafsir/explanation of its concepts/terms. The way it uses contrast, the way it uses examples/parables to explain its points etc.
Good deal.
Peace.
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salam wakas,
i agree with your viewpoint, but i have a problem with some of the logic used here.
people keep saying, the Quran is detailed but that does not mean that every single aspect of daily life is detailed. I can't remember the name of this particular logical flaw... negating an extreme to imply your point.
who is saying that?? Even the sunnah people don't say that every aspect of life is detailed.
the question is not EVERYTHING, white or wheat, left or right side of road etc... the question is RELEVANT things to setting up a society. the applications of general principles to set up a society. for example, society could not exist without an adequate penal code for example, or monetary/economic system.. these are things which allah has given principles for AND also some specific applications (those specifics will remain for eternity now). The question is WHAT happens to those specifics that were not given in the Quran. Is it not RELEVANT? Are these not DETAILS? DETAILS not found in the Quran?
funny thing is though that i think we are all saying pretty similar things just communicating it differently. some here are trying to say that all the details are in the quran but some of the details are general semantics and terminology are problematic here.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
I see that you did not reply to my last post above . I didn't think after it, that you would still be having difficulty, but, seeing that you are, let me see if I can make it any simpler for you
Do you want to go to Hell or Paradise? I will assume you desire the latter. So, in order for you to know how avoid Hell and get to Paradise, are all of the details necessary toward that end... fully detailed in Al-Quran...yes or no?
Please respond.
Peace.
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salam pb,
no offense to you, but i just dont want to go in circles. when you say something that shows that you actually thought about my position, i will respond.
i asked you a question in my last post which you have been ignoring. in your last 2 you've again totally ignored it again. why should i answer your question, which you've asked and i've answered several times already?just superficially changing the words and asking the same question over and over, what do you expect??
why should i answer when you display intellectual dishonesty in your posts by forcing word meanings which you know are against the Arabic lexicon evidence?
post something that shows you've read digested and thought about my post (doesn't mean you have to agree), then i will definitely respond. dont just repeat your points like a parrot and expect me to keep replying.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
no offense to you, but i just dont want to go in circles. when you say something that shows that you actually thought about my position, i will respond. i asked you a question in my last post which you have been ignoring. in your last 2 you've again totally ignored it again. why should i answer your question, which you've asked and i've answered several times already?just superficially changing the words and asking the same question over and over, what do you expect?? why should i answer when you display intellectual dishonesty in your posts by forcing word meanings which you know are against the Arabic lexicon evidence? post something that shows you've read digested and thought about my post (doesn't mean you have to agree), then i will definitely respond. dont just repeat your points like a parrot and expect me to keep replying.
On the contrary Shuaib, it is you who is being intellectually dishonest. I've not posted one dishonest thing and well you know it . If I've posted something dishonest, then, call Allah as your witness and post it, otherwise, please retract your comments and apologize for slandering me. Remember, Allah, is our witness to who is lying and who is not. You don't want to respond, because you realize that your argument has collapsed, utterly.
From day one, my argument was/is, Allah's Quran, relative to guidance, is fully detailed
GUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Brother Wakas, all praises due to Allah, agreed
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide. That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
That was my only issue, and rather than just admit that your position was wrong, you'd prefer to slander me and make excuses as to why you won't respond.....and you call me dishonest?, please, bro. We've been discussing this issue over two forums and umpteen posts, yet, Wakas, only after 2-3 exchanges, arrived at the same conclusion I did...why is that? Because he is intellectually honest and not afraid to support what is the truth. Please don't refer to me as being intellectually dishonest anymore, because you are not an example of intellectual honesty...at all, thanks.
Understanding that Al-Quran is the only thing necessary for guidance, is a tremendous prophylactic against shirk...think about that, would you?
Anyway, good discussion nonetheless. See you on the next issue.
Peace to you, bro.
