A GREAT CONTRADICTION
-
salams pb,
This is going to be one of my last posts to you because all we've done is gone in circles. It's a total waste of time.
You continue to say one thing and then change it ...
What I am doing is trying to find the best words to explain to you my points.. my words wouldn't change if you could just understand. You got confused with the word LAWS (because i CLEARLY said that I intended it to mean specific INJUNCTIONS like penal laws, inheritance laws etc, yet you confused that and started saying "are you saying that allah's laws change?") it's statements like that, that cause me to step back and change wording that might be easier to understand or more accurate. my essential position, to any reasonable person with depth, it should be obvious, has always been the same. changing terminology doesn't mean my position changed!
Changing the term from law to application does nothing to change my stance. The fact you claim so, just proves how illogical and superficial your thinking is.
What three people are they?
taj, myself, and hlatif. NOW you can add a fourth, br wakas.
Yet you have the audacity to pretend that you have some deeper grasp of Arabic than we do, without actually knowing Arabic!! It's truly a VERY dishonest thing you are doing.. and purely on the basis of this I am ready to terminate the discussion.
How can I discuss fruitfully with someone so intellectually dishonest??How do you differentiate a Quranic law from a Quranic principle, are they not one in the same thing? Can you show a Quranic law that isn't, at the same time, a Quranic principle?
Go read my posts.. I have explained everything and you clearly have understood nothing.
You're talking about the application of laws/principles, and I'm talking about the laws/principles being fully detailed from 11 to 1146, so that they can be applied.
if you had actually READ my posts... you would have realized that from post #1 I have ALWAYS claimed that the principles were complete. I simply was trying to say that the APPLICATIONS/ACTUAL LEGAL RULES i.e. LAWS (like do not speed, do this and you get lashed, this much income tax, etc) are not all there... drinking is fuhasha, zina is fuhasha... zina is specifically punished...
WHY NO MENTION of punishment for drinking in the Quran?
You have ENTIRELY ignored this question of mine from the very first post. You have yet to answer this question.
It's obvious to me that you have not thought very deeply or are not capable of deeper thought on this issue. To not know Arabic, and to turn a blind eye to the Arabic lexicon evidence presented to you, is absolutely dishonest. And to claim all the details are in the Quran when numerous things are NOT there such as Islamic penal code... is just plain silly.
There is no further point in continuing the discussion unless you have something of depth to say.
-
PEACE, WAKAS,
peace PB, all,
I would translate the following 'fassalnahu tafseela' as 'explained distinctly/clearly' or 'explained in a distinguishing/clarifying manner' or 'distinctly/clearly explained'. Wakas
Thanks for the response. Now, given your understanding of fassalnahu tafseela, how is something explained in a distinguishing and clarifying manner, not at the same time, be fully detailed in that explanation?
Given that GUIDANCE/Al-Quran is the instruction on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , what, then, concerning it , relative to your understanding of fassalnahu tafseela, is or can be lacking in details?
Peace.
-
PEACE, SHUAIB,
I'm going to make this really easy for you to grasp so that we stop going in circles.
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks
53...This day have I perfected for you your Deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as your Deen..
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
GUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Now, here is the question and it will only require a yes or no response . Given the above ayats and defintions
Are ALL of the NECESSARY/COMPLETE details, RELATIVE TO MANKIND'S GUIDANCE , found in Allah's Quran. Yes or no? I cannot make it any simpler than this.
As always, looking forward to your reply.
-
Peace be upon you PB,
Are ALL of the NECESSARY/COMPLETE details, RELATIVE TO MANKIND'S GUIDANCE , found in Allah's Quran. Yes or no? I cannot make it any simpler than this
Here's an example, lets say that I am with a friend and he pulls out a gun to kill a young boy, what should I do? Do I try to stop him, do I call the authorities? Please keep the response short to avoid a long post.
-
peace PB,
Thanks for the response. Now, given your understanding of fassalnahu tafseela, how is something explained in a distinguishing and clarifying manner, not at the same time, be fully detailed in that explanation?
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose. That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do.
My view of 'fassala=distinguish' can co-exist with such a view. Something can be explained in a distinguishing/clarifying/distinct manner by the presentation/style/content. For example, the distinguishing/clarifying way 'al quran' uses internal tafsir/explanation of its concepts/terms. The way it uses contrast, the way it uses examples/parables to explain its points etc.
It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
Wakas
-
Peace be upon you PB,
Are ALL of the NECESSARY/COMPLETE details, RELATIVE TO MANKIND'S GUIDANCE , found in Allah's Quran. Yes or no? I cannot make it any simpler than this
Here's an example, lets say that I am with a friend and he pulls out a gun to kill a young boy, what should I do? Do I try to stop him, do I call the authorities? Please keep the response short to avoid a long post.
475 And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.
There's your guidance.
Peace.
-
PEACE, WAKAS,
PRIEST Thanks for the response. Now, given your understanding of fassalnahu tafseela, how is something explained in a distinguishing and clarifying manner, and, not at the same time, be fully detailed in that explanation?
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide. That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do.
Exactly right, hence, there is no need for extra-Quranic so-called "sources of guidance".
My view of 'fassala=distinguish' can co-exist with such a view. Something can be explained in a distinguishing/clarifying/distinct manner by the presentation/style/content. For example, the distinguishing/clarifying way 'al quran' uses internal tafsir/explanation of its concepts/terms. The way it uses contrast, the way it uses examples/parables to explain its points etc.
Good deal.
Peace.
-
salam wakas,
i agree with your viewpoint, but i have a problem with some of the logic used here.
people keep saying, the Quran is detailed but that does not mean that every single aspect of daily life is detailed. I can't remember the name of this particular logical flaw... negating an extreme to imply your point.
who is saying that?? Even the sunnah people don't say that every aspect of life is detailed.
the question is not EVERYTHING, white or wheat, left or right side of road etc... the question is RELEVANT things to setting up a society. the applications of general principles to set up a society. for example, society could not exist without an adequate penal code for example, or monetary/economic system.. these are things which allah has given principles for AND also some specific applications (those specifics will remain for eternity now). The question is WHAT happens to those specifics that were not given in the Quran. Is it not RELEVANT? Are these not DETAILS? DETAILS not found in the Quran?
funny thing is though that i think we are all saying pretty similar things just communicating it differently. some here are trying to say that all the details are in the quran but some of the details are general semantics and terminology are problematic here.
-
PEACE, SHUAIB,
I see that you did not reply to my last post above . I didn't think after it, that you would still be having difficulty, but, seeing that you are, let me see if I can make it any simpler for you
Do you want to go to Hell or Paradise? I will assume you desire the latter. So, in order for you to know how avoid Hell and get to Paradise, are all of the details necessary toward that end... fully detailed in Al-Quran...yes or no?
Please respond.
Peace.
-
salam pb,
no offense to you, but i just dont want to go in circles. when you say something that shows that you actually thought about my position, i will respond.
i asked you a question in my last post which you have been ignoring. in your last 2 you've again totally ignored it again. why should i answer your question, which you've asked and i've answered several times already?just superficially changing the words and asking the same question over and over, what do you expect??
why should i answer when you display intellectual dishonesty in your posts by forcing word meanings which you know are against the Arabic lexicon evidence?
post something that shows you've read digested and thought about my post (doesn't mean you have to agree), then i will definitely respond. dont just repeat your points like a parrot and expect me to keep replying.
-
PEACE, SHUAIB,
no offense to you, but i just dont want to go in circles. when you say something that shows that you actually thought about my position, i will respond. i asked you a question in my last post which you have been ignoring. in your last 2 you've again totally ignored it again. why should i answer your question, which you've asked and i've answered several times already?just superficially changing the words and asking the same question over and over, what do you expect?? why should i answer when you display intellectual dishonesty in your posts by forcing word meanings which you know are against the Arabic lexicon evidence? post something that shows you've read digested and thought about my post (doesn't mean you have to agree), then i will definitely respond. dont just repeat your points like a parrot and expect me to keep replying.
On the contrary Shuaib, it is you who is being intellectually dishonest. I've not posted one dishonest thing and well you know it . If I've posted something dishonest, then, call Allah as your witness and post it, otherwise, please retract your comments and apologize for slandering me. Remember, Allah, is our witness to who is lying and who is not. You don't want to respond, because you realize that your argument has collapsed, utterly.
From day one, my argument was/is, Allah's Quran, relative to guidance, is fully detailed
GUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Brother Wakas, all praises due to Allah, agreed
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide. That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
That was my only issue, and rather than just admit that your position was wrong, you'd prefer to slander me and make excuses as to why you won't respond.....and you call me dishonest?, please, bro. We've been discussing this issue over two forums and umpteen posts, yet, Wakas, only after 2-3 exchanges, arrived at the same conclusion I did...why is that? Because he is intellectually honest and not afraid to support what is the truth. Please don't refer to me as being intellectually dishonest anymore, because you are not an example of intellectual honesty...at all, thanks.
Understanding that Al-Quran is the only thing necessary for guidance, is a tremendous prophylactic against shirk...think about that, would you?
Anyway, good discussion nonetheless. See you on the next issue.
Peace to you, bro.
-
salam pb,
i didn't mean to insult or slander you at all, and if you felt that, i apologize.
however, what i am saying is dishonest is this... you do not speak Arabic.. you are reading an arabic dictionary that has been called into question NUMEROUS times... fine, you still use it because you have no choice. no complaints there... but you are confronted, not once, not twice, not thrice, but 4 times with people giving you evidence to the contrary.. PRIMARY source evidence (CLASSIC lexicons).
any intellectually HONEST person would at LEAST have second thoughts.. the fact that you press on unabashedly, is, as i said, dishonest.. for the obvious reason that you no longer are interested in truth, rather your views have become an agenda (probably subconsciously).
yet, Wakas, only after 2-3 exchanges, arrived at the same conclusion I did
ask him if fassala means detailed.. let me save you the trouble, look back a few posts and open your eyes. i cant speak for what he exactly agrees with you about, but he did openly disagree about your interpretation of fasala which is what i am disagreeing with you about.
because you are not an example of intellectual honesty...at all, thanks.
On the contrary Shuaib, it is you who is being intellectually dishonest.
if i have been dishonest in some way, feel free to tell me why. dont just say i was dishonest because i called you that, like we're children on the playground. are you going to stoop to that? i wasn't just randomly calling you names, i hope you can see.. i have a legitimate complaint against your tactics.. just as i did against apple pie!
you are exactly following the logic of apple pie.. keep pressing on about your views, regardless of how little knowledge of Arabic you have or how much contrary linguistic evidence is supplied... and stick to your omar's dictionary with your eyes closed! is this how an sincere truth-seeking person behaves? if knowingly turning a blind eye to evidence is not dishonesty, then what is?
ps--
i'm still waiting for you to tell me how Muslims should punish alcohol drinking... i wonder if you'll EVER answer that. since you've ignored this in every post, that's another reason why i decided it's best just to end the discussion. -
PEACE, SHUAIB,
I'm really curious as to what circles I'm going in, perhaps you will clarify that for us. I prefer to use syllogism as opposed to "circles". You see, A=B=C, therefore, A=C, is a circle. Now, I choose to use Allah's syllogisms or, as you call them, circles.
i didn't mean to insult or slander you at all, and if you felt that, i apologize.
Accepted, good deal.
however, what i am saying is dishonest is this... you do not speak Arabic.. you are reading an arabic dictionary that has been called into question NUMEROUS times... fine, you still use it because you have no choice. no complaints there... but you are confronted, not once, not twice, not thrice, but 4 times with people giving you evidence to the contrary.. PRIMARY source evidence (CLASSIC lexicons).
As i said, I don't know the Spanish language either, however, when i used to say to the Spanish ladies "como esta, baja?" I and that lady knew exactly what I was talking about on many levels. lol It is a canard and specious argument to say that, because someone doesn't know a particular language that they cannot know what particular words mean in that language. Another example is Latin. Many Latin phrases are used in law, writing, mottos etc. ,yet, the person using that phrase or word, while not knowing the Latin language, nonetheless, knows what that particular phrase or term means. It is know different in my case relative to fasala.
any intellectually HONEST person would at LEAST have second thoughts.. the fact that you press on unabashedly, is, as i said, dishonest.. for the obvious reason that you no longer are interested in truth, rather your views have become an agenda (probably subconsciously).
This is more canard, specious argument, and now...mind/heart/ghayb reading, Shuaib.
ask him if fassala means detailed.. let me save you the trouble, look back a few posts and open your eyes. i cant speak for what he exactly agrees with you about, but he did openly disagree about your interpretation of fasala which is what i am disagreeing with you about.
If he disagrees with me, then why in his finally post to me, did he say the following about fassalnahu relative to Al-Quran and guidance
WAKAS My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose....It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
He had to admit that, fasala, to be 'explained distinctly/clearly' or 'explained in a distinguishing/clarifying manner' or 'distinctly/clearly explained', could not be that/could not achieve that end, if it weren't, at the same time...fully detailed in that explanation.
WAKAS It means to make distinct, distinguish, clarify. I would translate the following 'fassalnahu tafseela' as 'explained distinctly/clearly' or 'explained in a distinguishing/clarifying manner' or 'distinctly/clearly explained'.
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar, regarding fasala, writes
Main Entry FASALA to set apart separate distinguish set a limit depart decide divide into parts expatiate into detail make clear distinct narrate a thing with all its particulars. page 428
You will notice that both Wakas and Omar, use distinct and clear in their definitions, hence, it isn't the case that Omar doesn't know what he is talking about, rather, his definition is more comprehensive and exact, meaning, as I said to Wakas...how is something explained in a distinguishing and clarifying manner, and not at the same time, be fully detailed in that explanation, especially, something coming from Allah!? That simply would not make any sense at all. I believe this is what Wakas also understood, hence, his reply
WAKAS My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose....It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide. That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
if i have been dishonest in some way, feel free to tell me why. dont just say i was dishonest because i called you that, like we're children on the playground. are you going to stoop to that? i wasn't just randomly calling you names, i hope you can see.. i have a legitimate complaint against your tactics.. just as i did against apple pie! you are exactly following the logic of apple pie.. keep pressing on about your views, regardless of how little knowledge of Arabic you have or how much contrary linguistic evidence is supplied... and stick to your omar's dictionary with your eyes closed! is this how an sincere truth-seeking person behaves? if knowingly turning a blind eye to evidence is not dishonesty, then what is?
O.k. given that you are an honest and sincere individual, and my evidence is all wrong, then
-
please explain why both mine and Wakas's conclusion that, relative to guidance, Al-Quran is fasala...fully detailed.
-
please respond, at last, by way of Al-Quran, to the following
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks
53...This day have I perfected for you your Deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as your Deen..
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main EntryGUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Now, here is the question and it will only require a yes or no response. Given the above ayats and defintions
Are ALL of the NECESSARY details, RELATIVE/SPECIFIC, to MANKIND'S GUIDANCE , found in Allah's Quran. Yes or no?
(Remember now, Allah, is not threatening mankind with death, because we were created to die. Allah, therefore, is threatening mankind with...HELL, thus, what possible detail, could Allah not have included in Al-Quran, relative/specific to, man avoiding that fate/destiny?)
Please don't cop-out this time and call me circular, dishonest, insincere, ignorant, or blind, as a pretext for ignoring this post. If you are honest, sincere, can see, knowledgeable, and logical, then please demonstrate this, eshew any personal comments, and focus on the above issues, thanks.
As always, looking forward to your reply.
-
-
salams pb,
A=B=C is logic. But saying A=B and then repeating it over and over and over regardless of what the other person is saying, is dogma, not discussion.
If i ask you a question, in a discussion, you should answer it... not just repeat what you said in the last post in new words. What you have been doing in every post is taking what you said in the last post, tweaking it or changing the words slightly, and then reposting!
As i said, I don't know the Spanish language either, however, when i used to say to the Spanish ladies "como esta, baja?" I and that lady knew exactly what I was talking about on many levels.
The question is not the ability to say a phrase or two... the question is the ability to do a deep linguistic investigation in a particular word to find the nuances related to a word...
If he disagrees with me, then why in his finally post to me, did he say the following about fassalnahu relative to Al-Quran and guidance
i dont like to put words in others' mouths... but regardless of his end conclusion, he still disagreed with your definition of fasala..
Let's just take a step back for a second.
I dont think you realize how close we are on our positions... we both agree that all we need is the Quran and the Quran is complete and perfect. we both agree that we dont require outside divine sources and all necessary divine guidance is in the Quran.
To illustrate my point, I asked a question which for some reason you ignored yet again... how to punish drinking in Islam. try to answer/think about it and you might see where we differ or why i say the quran is perfect without being detailed.
-
PEACE, SHUAIB,
A=B=C is logic. But saying A=B and then repeating it over and over and over regardless of what the other person is saying, is dogma, not discussion.
If people would simply accept 1+1=2, then, there would be no need to repaeat things.
If i ask you a question, in a discussion, you should answer it... not just repeat what you said in the last post in new words. What you have been doing in every post is taking what you said in the last post, tweaking it or changing the words slightly, and then reposting!
"Tweaking", is refining (zakaa?), and not for my benefit, but yours.
The question is not the ability to say a phrase or two... the question is the ability to do a deep linguistic investigation in a particular word to find the nuances related to a word...
And that is why dictionaries/lexicons exist. Simply because your dictionary doesn't include fasala as meaning fully detailed and Omar's does, doesn't mean that your dictionary is correct, have you considered that possibility? Omar's definition incorporates both your dictionaries definition and other dictionaries definition of the term, hence, he offers a more comprehensive linguistic rendering of the term.
i dont like to put words in others' mouths... but regardless of his end conclusion, he still disagreed with your definition of fasala..
Seeing how you disagree, then, ask him. I think he does agree that fassalnhu incorporates fully detailed, as Omar wrote, because he specifically stated
WAKAS My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose....It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
Now, what Quranic term is he using for fully detailed, in his conclusion?
I dont think you realize how close we are on our positions... we both agree that all we need is the Quran and the Quran is complete and perfect. we both agree that we dont require outside divine sources and all necessary divine guidance is in the Quran.
Well, if that is your position and given the definitions of complete and perfect, then you know that Al-Quran, relative to/specific to GUIDANCE, is fully detailed. What is the problem? Why can't you simply admit to this? Nothing more than your ego prevents you from doing so, come on.
To illustrate my point, I asked a question which for some reason you ignored yet again... how to punish drinking in Islam. try to answer/think about it and you might see where we differ or why i say the quran is perfect without being detailed.
If Allah wanted a specific punishment for drinking, He would have, as He did with the specific fahusha/indency of zina , detailed it in Al-Quran. The guidance, then, on drinking is...Allah has left it up to each community/society to determine how to deal with it...that is the guidance on it. Now, what is your difficulty?
Looking forward to your reply.
-
peace PB, shuaib,
Do not embellish upon my comments. I feel my position was explained in a 'fassala' manner, thus there is no need to tell the reader what my position was.
As far as I can see, all of us agree that 'al quran' is all the guidance we need. It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
However, that does not change the fact that 'fassala' does not mean 'fully detailed'. The argument put forth that if the text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this equates to the text being fully detailed is INCORRECT. If a text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this is making a reference to its style, NOT its content.
One could infer from the attribute 'fassala', that the text would be clear in what the text means thus it is sufficiently detailed with respect to gaining a meaning, but not 'fully detailed' as a blanket term.
When someone says a text is 'fully detailed' one must give an object of reference (i.e. fully detailed with respect to what). For example, a 'how to assemble product X' guide/booklet can be described as fully detailed BUT this description must go hand in hand with an appreciation of its purpose, i.e. it is fully detailed with respect to assembling product X.I am not using the term 'fassala' to conclude that 'al quran' is fully detailed. If the DofQ said it can mean 'fully detailed' then this means that somewhere someone used it in such a way, but as far as I can see 'al quran' does not use it in this way. I came to this conclusion through cross-referencing its usage.
Is that explanation 'fassala' enough for you?
Wakas
-
PEACE, WAKAS,
As far as I can see, all of us agree that 'al quran' is all the guidance we need. It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide. However, that does not change the fact that 'fassala' does not mean 'fully detailed'.
What is the Quranic term you are using for fully detailed, relative, to guidance? Please post it with the ayat.
The argument put forth that if the text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this equates to the text being fully detailed is INCORRECT. If a text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this is making a reference to its style, NOT its content.
This makes no sense and you are contradicting yourself, let me show you.
Main Entry STYLE a distinctive manner of expression as in writing or speech.
The question now is, what is the style of Allah's Quran? Well, Allah says, Al-Quran is
Main Entry CLEAR free from obscurity or ambiguity easily understood unmistakeable capable of sharp discernment free from doubt.
Main Entry BANA/BAYYINAH/MUBIN 2282; clear evidence; clear proof; precise testimony explaining clearlybeyond doubt. page 70-71
Main Entry FASALA to set apart separate distinguish set a limit depart decide divide into parts expatiate into detail make clear distinct narrate a thing with all its particulars. Dictionary of the Holy Quran, page 428
Main Entry FASALA to divide into particular sectionsclassify categorize to present in logical order set forth in detail particularize. A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, by Hans Wehr. page 715-716
Main Entry TAFSEEL detailed statement elaborate or minute exposition detailing completeness of detail particular. A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, by Hans Wehr. page 716
Main Entry DETAIL fassal yufassil tafsil. The English-Arabic Translator Dictionary, by F. Steingass, revised by Said Salah.
1712 We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail.
1712 WajaAAalna allayla wannahara ayatayni famahawna ayata allayli wajaAAalna ayata annahari mubsiratan litabtaghoo fadlan min rabbikum walitaAAlamoo AAadada assineena walhisaba wakulla shayin fassalnahu tafseela.
The above ayat then, is saying that, Allah, has minutely and completely...detailed the details. Hence, the purpose of Al-Quran is to Guide mankind , and the style of Al-Quran is to be clear . Now, especially, that Al-Quran comes from Allah, how is it possible then for it to be clear, and not at the same time, fully detailed?
One could infer from the attribute 'fassala', that the text would be clear in what the text means thus it is sufficiently detailed with respect to gaining a meaning...
Well, isn't it all about the meaning of Al-Quran? We are supposed to derive its meaning so that we can take advantage of its guidance and be guided. If we could not derive the meaning of Al-Quran, then, it could not fulfill its purpose/raison d etre--to guide , but, there is no deriving its meaning if it isn't fully detailed toward that end.
but not 'fully detailed' as a blanket term. When someone says a text is 'fully detailed' one must give an object of reference (i.e. fully detailed with respect to what). For example, a 'how to assemble product X' guide/booklet can be described as fully detailed BUT this description must go hand in hand with an appreciation of its purpose, i.e. it is fully detailed with respect to assembling product X.
Who's talking about as a "blanket term"?, this is what Shuaib, and now you, obviously, are talking about, not me. Al-Quran does not give details on how to build and X-Box, a deisel locomotive, a conputer chip, or how to lay carpeting. I'm talking about, as you also admitted to btw, that Al-Quran in its purpose to guide mankind , is fassalnahu/fully detailed. This is not a blanket use of fassalnahu, but a very specific use of it...specific to/relative to...guidance .
I am not using the term 'fassala' to conclude that 'al quran' is fully detailed.
You aren't saying it's fully detailed specific to what? You, as with Shuaib, are now free-floating/disconecting this term from its meaning and purpose---that Al-Quran is fully detailed relative to/specfic to---Guidance...it's only usage.
If the DofQ said it can mean 'fully detailed' then this means that somewhere someone used it in such a way, but as far as I can see 'al quran' does not use it in this way. I came to this conclusion through cross-referencing its usage.
Look again, because you've already defined this term, specific to, guidance the same way Al-Quran uses it and myself.
WAKAS My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose....It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
As you see, you made no mention of style, which, contradicts your above position. But, as you can see, your style argument is a canard and does not hold up.
Is that explanation 'fassala' enough for you?
No, it's not and I'm looking forward with anticipation to your reply.
-
peace PB,
What is the Quranic term you are using for fully detailed, relative, to guidance? Please post it with the ayat.
I am not using any specific term. I am using the message/information contained within several signs (that article needs updating with my new understanding of FSL). I am also using logic to determine 'al quran' is fully detailed with respect to its purpose.
Its clear to me, you are seeing what you want to see in my writing (this is easily demonstrated by your cuting & pasting of my words then underneath you give an interpretation/embellishment of what I'm saying). If you are so sure I am contradicting myself, why dont you ask for other forum members of their opinion, see if they come to the same conclusion.
Since you are a fan of dictionary meanings, allow me to present one you never did
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=contradiction
Wakas
-
PEACE, WAKAS,
Thanks for your reply.
I am not using any specific term. I am using the message/information contained within several signs (that article needs updating with my new understanding of FSL). I am also using logic to determine 'al quran' is fully detailed with respect to its purpose.
Well, if you are not using a specific term for fully detailed, then you are conjecturing about Al-Quran being fully detailed in any regard, because with no term for fully detailed, you cannot prove that it is, in fact, fully detailed, certainly you must see this? Your position then, is in contradiction to ayats 733, 1736, and 2124
733 Say the things that my Lord has indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He has given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
1736 And pursue not that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning)
- Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.
Its clear to me, you are seeing what you want to see in my writing (this is easily demonstrated by your cuting & pasting of my words then underneath you give an interpretation/embellishment of what I'm saying). If you are so sure I am contradicting myself, why dont you ask for other forum members of their opinion, see if they come to the same conclusion.
I only posted what you what stated, Wakas. On one hand, you agreed with me that Al-Quran, in its purpose/reason for existence, was to guide mankind, and in that it is fully detailed, hence, the contents of Al-Quran--the ayats, those things that do the guiding, must be fully detailed regarding guidance. Then, you turn around and say that it is not fully detailed in content but style??? This, by any definition of the term, is contradictory---"to be inconsistent". The only thing I've been asserting is that Al-Quran, relative to guidance, is fully detailed and that fasala expresses the meaning of fully detailed.
Btw, do you stand by your assertion that, Al-Quran is not fully detailed in content, but only in style, is this your final position?
why dont you ask for other forum members of their opinion, see if they come to the same conclusion.
Tell me how to do this and I will, no problem.
Looking forward to your responses.
