=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=

Zlatan

if you going naked to your job are you making a sin? is it forbiden to go naked around? if answer is yes, then why?

and the answer might tell us a lot of the detaileness of the details we should expect from the book....

Zlatan

why not a number of cattle/animals or similar?

or provision/supply for a certain period of time ..say 6 months, year, two etc....(we have similar examples/cases in other issues)

Wakas

peace Zlatan,

why not a number of cattle/animals or similar?

Imagine you have killed me today unintentionaly...how much you need to pay( and to whome?) to get away with it...

3 UK pounds... 30 UK pounds....300... 3000 ...30000?

are you allowed to give say 50 cents ? if not then why and where is the border that is acceptable?

or provision/supply for a certain period of time ..say 6 months, year, two etc....(we have similar examples/cases in other issues)

To give a specific value in a specific currency is impractical. For example, you stated Pounds Sterling, well, if we accept the Euro, the pound would be non-existent. Not only that, due to inflation, ?10 50 years ago was worth more than ?10 today.

One may not have cattle to give.

To whom the signs say the family.

I have not studied the signs, thus I cannot say who makes the decision on how much, but if it is the individual, they could give 50 cents, but like many things 'al quran' allows a degree of flexibility to provide a distinguishing mechanism, one who is naturally/sincerely just will give a just amount, one must have a choice, if there was no choice, then there is no point in the test. No injustice will be done as one cannot escape the scales on The Day.
One should give a just amount, and a just amount would depend on the individual and their dependents or their contribution to causes/betterment etc. To me, this is perfectly reasonable, and perfectly logical.

Also, provision for a set number of years may not work because they may have a young child who would need support till they were able to provide for themselves. This could range from 1-20 years. Thus, it would depend on situation.

To answer your question, if I were to kill you accidentally, I would ask forgiveness from your dependents/family and The God. And whatever compensation your dependents/family agreed to be paid, I would pay it. IF I felt it was unreasonable I would refer it to the authority. If the dependents were not in a position to make a decision on compensation, then it would be referred to the authority. This is what seems to be implied, because it says if the family remit it, thus they are in the decision making position, and are likely to value the compensation, but I have not studied all the signs on this subject.

What problem do you have with that?

let make it more simple...if you going naked to your job are you making a sin? is it forbiden to go naked around? if answer is yes, then why?

According to the dress code guidelines in 'al quran', it would be unacceptable to go to work naked, if work involved exposure to the public.

Wakas

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

(1037) And this, the Reading is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than The God, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands, and detailing/explaining The Book(Universal Law) , no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from the Lord of the Knowledgable.

Also again, did Musa get the 114 chapter Koran? And do the jews and christians study the 114 chapter Koran?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

If "quran" and "Al Kitaab" are the same, explain the following verse.

(1094) So if you are in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so ask/question those who read The Book from before you, the truth had come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.

We understand that the original reciever of this message is being addressed, so who was it, before him, that could have been reading THIS reading(quran)?

Instead, those of ALL TIMES have been contemplating the universe and it laws. The truth is always right in front of us. We can TEST any theory and the God's Universal Law will reject all falsehood.

(2256)...the right way is now distinct from the wrong way...

shuaib

salam idol,

279 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

explain that. no one here said kitab=quran... rather they say kitab CAN mean quran depending on the context, and sometimes it means a book in general or another particular book.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Shuiab

279 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

explain that

The verse says that Woe/Regret is upon those who try to write The Universal Laws(Al Kitaab) down into a book and claim some type of holiness for that writing saying it is from the God. The God did not write any books, all Creation is The God's Book.

no one here said kitab=quran... rather they say kitab CAN mean quran depending on the context, and sometimes it means a book in general or another particular book.

Where is the verse where Kitaab means a Physical Book called "Quran"?

Yes, Kitaab does mean book, but when the God refers to "Al" Kitaab, it is impliying the God's Universal Laws.

Those who study the Universe as it should be studied (menatl and spiritual included), they write books to help others find the path. The God has written no books, the God inspires his servants to the Truth.

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

Peace be upon you, If "quran" and "Al Kitaab" are the same, explain the following verse.

(1094) So if you are in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so ask/question those who read The Book from before you, the truth had come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.

We understand that the original reciever of this message is being addressed, so who was it, before him, that could have been reading THIS reading(quran)? Instead, those of ALL TIMES have been contemplating the universe and it laws. The truth is always right in front of us. We can TEST any theory and the God's Universal Law will reject all falsehood.

(2256)...the right way is now distinct from the wrong way...

While I do see your point, I am not yet completely convinced of your understanding. Please consider the following

22 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

1037 And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.

2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...

2223 And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a Sura like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

In ayat 22, what is meant by "this" Book? Allah, says of "this" Book that, there is no doubt in it. Ayats 2223 and 1037 also refer to Al-Quran as having no doubt in it. Thus far, the "Book", in 22, appears to be referring to Al-Quran. Ayat 22 says... guidance sure and ayat 2185 says Al-Quran is guidance and clear proof of guidance, thus, once again, the Book in ayat 22, appears to be referring to Al-Quran.

Is Al-Quran, included in the Book?

Yes, Kitaab does mean book, but when the God refers to "Al" Kitaab, it is impliying the God's Universal Laws

Is it implying, or is it a Quranic fact? To imply, is to conjecture.

Peace.

shuaib

salam idol,

"... who try to write The Universal Laws(Al Kitaab) down into a book "

According to your interpretation, there is a word in that verse that means book. What is it?

Zlatan

Peace Wakas!

Thank you for the comments, God bless you, after reading your anwers last night my confusion was seemingly a bit smaller?though i havent studied it thoroughly yet?and on the horizon there is seemingly more confusion?.please have patients with my comments i am a bit slow/poor communicator?.

a question more

According to the dress code guidelines in 'al quran', it would be unacceptable to go to work naked, if work involved exposure to the public.

According to that code what is the allowed minimum ?

Best wishes, Zlatan

TAJ

Salaams Shuaib, kyle, All

salam idol,

"... who try to write The Universal Laws(Al Kitaab) down into a book "

According to your interpretation, there is a word in that verse that means book. What is it?

In the Ayah , also whenever there is Anzalna with the word "Al Kitaab", I believe "Al Kitaab" would mean Al Wa7y (Al Wahy)= the Revelation of God's Words and Laws.

So in
AlLatheen Yaktuboon Al Kitaab Be Aydeehim Thumma Yaqooloona Hatha min 3inde Ellah...

I see "Al Kitaab" in as not the Revelation of God's Laws BUT what appears to people as such. Some wicked people would fabricate laws and stories and present them as if they were revealed to them when such thing never ever happened.

mmkhan

Salaam brother PB,

22 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

In ayat 22, what is meant by "this" Book? Allah, says of "this" Book that, there is no doubt in it.

Here in 22 zthalika does not mean "This" but it means "That"

A.L.M, that is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous. 22

"That" refers to the Scripture or Al-Kitaab because it is far from a normal human being until he becomes muttaqee. (please correct me if I am wrong here).

Far in the sense not visible to them until they becomes muttaqee and get the guidance from it (Al-Kitaab) as shown in 22

And We have cited in this Quran so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion! 1741

"Haztha" means "This" which always in relation with Al-Quraan only. No where it is refering to Al-Kitaab.

Regards,

MMKhan

Wakas

peace Zlatan,

According to that code what is the allowed minimum ?

Its different for men & women. From my study, the minimum for men would be to cover the genitals + modesty. For women it would be to cover the genitals + bosom + modesty.

Lastly, confusion is no bad thing, it forces us to re-think / question, which can be a good thing.

Wakas

Zlatan

Peace Wakas

so you believe you could go to work your ass naked and with a few leafs(leaves) covering your genitalia?
and your wife in bikini?

I cant tell you'r wrong but at least its a little wierd to me... but who am i to judge...The God`s wisdom is greater from me and my prejudices.......

Tell me, which verses exactly lead you to believe that only genitals should be covered (in man)?

If you think of hafizoo furooj(2430) i believe you might be well incorrect....i think its obvious that that command reffer to promiscuity( to preserve oneself from it) and not to dress code....

best wishes

Zlatan

p.s. would you also be kind to tell me do you believe we could be guided without the scripture?

does each man should recieve the scripture during his sojourn on the earth?

unknownuser

PEACE MMKHAN,

Thank you for the possible correction. As I said to Idol, I am having less difficulty with his analysis of Al-Kitab, but am not yet fully convinced.

Here in 22 zthalika does not mean "This" but it means "That"

I tend to agree. In The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, page 186, Omar, on dhalika, writes

"DHALIKA, is primarily used in the sense of "That", but it is also used in the sense of "This" indicating the high rank and dignity of the thing to which it refers".

Hans Wehr's, Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, is also consistent with Omar.

So, you are convinced that in 22, dhalika, cannot mean "This", but only "That, is this your position?

A.L.M, that is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous. 22

I did not understand your interpretation of 22, perhaps you could rephrase it, thanks.

Regarding KATABA, both Omar, page 478 and Wehr, pages 812-813, define the term as to write note record Writing Scripture message Law Knowledge reverted to a Prophet Teachings.

Now, my difficulty is this, are you and Kyle positing that, Al-Kitab, given the above definitions, only refers to the Universal Laws of the Creation, and not at all to Al-Quran?

Also, the ayat as you interpreted it--Laws of the Creation, leaves doubt about Al-Quran, likewise, being without doubt, meaning, the emphasis is on "Dhalika/That Kitab"--the "Laws of the Creation", suggesting, one can really have faith that "IT--Laws of Creation", is doubt free. Do you see what I'm saying here?

Also, are not the so-called "verses" of Al-Quran referred to as Ayats? If so, the the ayats in both the Creation and Al-Quran are without doubt/infallible, hence, why cannot Kitab, also, be referring to Al-Quran/

Looking forward witn anticipation to your reply.

Wakas

peace Zlatan,

so you believe you could go to work your ass naked and with a few leafs(leaves) covering your genitalia?
and your wife in bikini?

Please consider each point carefully.
I said covering of the genitals + modesty. Modesty is subjective and relative to oneself and the society they live in. That is why, in my opinion, there is a degree of flexibility in 'the reading' on such matters. IF, according to you and the type of work you do and society you live in - it is considered modest to wear a few leaves with your ass naked, or a female to wear a bikini to work, then so be it BUT I highly doubt this would be the case!

Tell me, which verses exactly lead you to believe that only genitals should be covered (in man)?

Please remember, I added " + modesty".

If you think of hafizoo furooj(2430) i believe you might be well incorrect....i think its obvious that that command reffer to promiscuity( to preserve oneself from it) and not to dress code....

Please cross reference the usage of the root, its plural/singular usage and check the classical Arabic definitions of the root. Here is its usage within 'the reading'

Fa-Ra-Jiim

779

2191, 235, 2430, 2431, 3335, 506, 6612, 7029

After having done that, do you still think your understanding of 2430 is correct?
In any case, this is not the only sign(s) I am using to form an opinion on this issue.

p.s. would you also be kind to tell me do you believe we could be guided without the scripture?

Yes, the scripture is not necessary. The God has given us an internal compass .

does each man should recieve the scripture during his sojourn on the earth?

I do not understand your question.

Wakas

mmkhan

PEACE MMKHAN,

Peace be upon you brother Priest,

Thank you for the possible correction. As I said to Idol, I am having less difficulty with his analysis of Al-Kitab, but am not yet fully convinced.

Here in 22 zthalika does not mean "This" but it means "That"

I tend to agree. In The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, page 186, Omar, on dhalika, writes

"DHALIKA, is primarily used in the sense of "That", but it is also used in the sense of "This" indicating the high rank and dignity of the thing to which it refers".

Hans Wehr's, Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, is also consistent with Omar.

So, you are convinced that in 22, dhalika, cannot mean "This", but only "That, is this your position?

Yes brother I am convinced that in 22 dhalika is only mean "That" not "This". Because I believe that Al-Quraan got its own standard and pattern (as I said in my previous posts). We need to check the usage of each word that how it has been used in Al-Quraan itself. That is only way we may get the correct meaning of each word.

If you refer to dictionaries they are fully based on spoken Arabic language. That means Saudi's spoken language is different from Misr's and others. Almost all Arabic speaking countries got their own word and usages. Dictionaries today are fully based on these usages. So, that may not be helpful to understand the exact meaning of words used in Al-Quraan.

The easy way to understand the correct meanings of the words used in Al-Quraan is to see the usage of same word in other places. Do you find any verse using "dhalika" in "This" sense? We may not able to check each and every word in such way because some of the words used only once in Al-Quraan. May Allah increase our knowledge to understand them correctly and help us finding the truth.

A.L.M, that is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous. 22

I did not understand your interpretation of 22, perhaps you could rephrase it, thanks.

That is used for something which is not near. So, the usage of dhalika in 22 means That is the Book (which is not near or which is far) in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous. (it will be far until we become the righteous / muttaqee. Because that Book got the guidance only for muttaqee / righteous). In a broad sense I understand this. I might be wrong here.

Regarding KATABA, both Omar, page 478 and Wehr, pages 812-813, define the term as to write note record Writing Scripture message Law Knowledge reverted to a Prophet Teachings.

Now, my difficulty is this, are you and Kyle positing that, Al-Kitab, given the above definitions, only refers to the Universal Laws of the Creation, and not at all to Al-Quran?

Did I say that it is only refering to the universal laws of the creation?

Also, the ayat as you interpreted it--Laws of the Creation, leaves doubt about Al-Quran, likewise, being without doubt, meaning, the emphasis is on "Dhalika/That Kitab"--the "Laws of the Creation", suggesting, one can really have faith that "IT--Laws of Creation", is doubt free. Do you see what I'm saying here?

Did I?

Also, are not the so-called "verses" of Al-Quran referred to as Ayats? If so, the the ayats in both the Creation and Al-Quran are without doubt/infallible, hence, why cannot Kitab, also, be referring to Al-Quran/

Looking forward witn anticipation to your reply.

Indeed so called verses of Al-Quraan surely referred to as Ayats. Because Allah says "We will show them Our signs/verses/ayats (aayaatina) in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things? 4153

Al-Kitaab cannot be the same as Al-Quraan because

Al-Kitaab is the guidance of righteous 22
Al-Quraan is the guidance for mankind 1185

Al-Kitaab got explainations for everything 1689
Al-Quraan does not

Al-Kitaab got every thing mentioned in it. Nothing left 638
Al-Quraan does not

Al-Quraan gives details of Al-Kitaab 1037
Al-Kitaab don't

Al-Kitaab has been given to all Prophets 689
Al-Quraan does not

I hope it may of some help.

Regards,

MMKhan

unknownuser

PEACE, MMKHAN,

Yes brother I am convinced that in 22 dhalika is only mean "That" not "This". Because I believe that Al-Quraan got its own standard and pattern (as I said in my previous posts). We need to check the usage of each word that how it has been used in Al-Quraan itself. That is only way we may get the correct meaning of each word
.

No, problem.

If you refer to dictionaries they are fully based on spoken Arabic language. That means Saudi's spoken language is different from Misr's and others. Almost all Arabic speaking countries got their own word and usages. Dictionaries today are fully based on these usages. So, that may not be helpful to understand the exact meaning of words used in Al-Quraan.

I have some problems with this, but that is for another time.

The easy way to understand the correct meanings of the words used in Al-Quraan is to see the usage of same word in other places. Do you find any verse using "dhalika" in "This" sense? We may not able to check each and every word in such way because some of the words used only once in Al-Quraan. May Allah increase our knowledge to understand them correctly and help us finding the truth.

Yes, I agree, however, the term still needs to be defined.

That is used for something which is not near. So, the usage of dhalika in 22 means That is the Book (which is not near or which is far) in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous. (it will be far until we become the righteous / muttaqee. Because that Book got the guidance only for muttaqee / righteous). In a broad sense I understand this. I might be wrong here.

I agree, you are only conjecturing here.

PRIEST, wrote

Regarding KATABA, both Omar, page 478 and Wehr, pages 812-813, define the term as to write note recordWriting Scripturemessage
Law Knowledge reverted to a Prophet Teachings.

Now, my difficulty is this, are you and Kyle positing that, Al-Kitab, given the above definitions, only refers to the Universal Laws of the Creation, and not at all to Al-Quran?

Did I say that it is only refering to the universal laws of the creation?

I didn't say you did, I am asking you a question, please elaborate, thanks.

PRIEST, wrote

Also, the ayat as you interpreted it--Laws of the Creation, leaves doubt about Al-Quran, likewise, being without doubt, meaning, the emphasis is on "Dhalika/That Kitab"--the "Laws of the Creation", suggesting, one can really have faith that "IT--Laws of Creation", is doubt free. Do you see what I'm saying here?

Did I?

Once again, I didn't say you did, I am asking you a question, please elaborate, thanks.

Indeed so called verses of Al-Quraan surely referred to as Ayats. Because Allah says "We will show them Our signs/verses/ayats (aayaatina) in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things? 4153

Al-Kitaab cannot be the same as Al-Quraan because

Is Al-Quran contained within Al-Kitab or is it separate and distinct from Al-Kitab?
If it is a separate, is it, unto itself, a complete/perfect book?
Is there any doubt in Al-Quran?
Relative to/specific to --guidance,

GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .),

is every explanation/full details regarding it , found in Al-Quran?

Al-Kitaab is the guidance of righteous 22
Al-Quraan is the guidance for mankind 1185. Al-Kitaab got explainations for everything 1689 Al-Quraan does not

Well, aren't the righteous apart of mankind? Are you saying that, once someone becomes "righteous", Al-Quran is no longer for them??

Please don't respond with "Did I say that" or "Did I", unless you elaborate, thanks.

Looking forward to your reply.

shuaib

salam idol

still wondering about your answer... what word in that verse did you interpret as book??

unknownuser

Peace Be upon you Shuiab,

Quote
"... who try to write The Universal Laws(Al Kitaab) down into a book "

According to your interpretation, there is a word in that verse that means book. What is it?

Which Verse?

The only word I would translate as "book" is "kitaab", but when refering to THE God's "Book" we are talking about the universal laws, just as we can talk about hands and faces yet when we speak of the God's "hands" and "face", we realize the higher understanding.