A GREAT CONTRADICTION
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peace PB,
What is the Quranic term you are using for fully detailed, relative, to guidance? Please post it with the ayat.
I am not using any specific term. I am using the message/information contained within several signs (that article needs updating with my new understanding of FSL). I am also using logic to determine 'al quran' is fully detailed with respect to its purpose.
Its clear to me, you are seeing what you want to see in my writing (this is easily demonstrated by your cuting & pasting of my words then underneath you give an interpretation/embellishment of what I'm saying). If you are so sure I am contradicting myself, why dont you ask for other forum members of their opinion, see if they come to the same conclusion.
Since you are a fan of dictionary meanings, allow me to present one you never did
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=contradiction
Wakas
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PEACE, WAKAS,
Thanks for your reply.
I am not using any specific term. I am using the message/information contained within several signs (that article needs updating with my new understanding of FSL). I am also using logic to determine 'al quran' is fully detailed with respect to its purpose.
Well, if you are not using a specific term for fully detailed, then you are conjecturing about Al-Quran being fully detailed in any regard, because with no term for fully detailed, you cannot prove that it is, in fact, fully detailed, certainly you must see this? Your position then, is in contradiction to ayats 733, 1736, and 2124
733 Say the things that my Lord has indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He has given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
1736 And pursue not that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning)
- Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.
Its clear to me, you are seeing what you want to see in my writing (this is easily demonstrated by your cuting & pasting of my words then underneath you give an interpretation/embellishment of what I'm saying). If you are so sure I am contradicting myself, why dont you ask for other forum members of their opinion, see if they come to the same conclusion.
I only posted what you what stated, Wakas. On one hand, you agreed with me that Al-Quran, in its purpose/reason for existence, was to guide mankind, and in that it is fully detailed, hence, the contents of Al-Quran--the ayats, those things that do the guiding, must be fully detailed regarding guidance. Then, you turn around and say that it is not fully detailed in content but style??? This, by any definition of the term, is contradictory---"to be inconsistent". The only thing I've been asserting is that Al-Quran, relative to guidance, is fully detailed and that fasala expresses the meaning of fully detailed.
Btw, do you stand by your assertion that, Al-Quran is not fully detailed in content, but only in style, is this your final position?
why dont you ask for other forum members of their opinion, see if they come to the same conclusion.
Tell me how to do this and I will, no problem.
Looking forward to your responses.
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peace PB,
Then, you turn around and say that it is not fully detailed in content but style???
This is yet another example of you seeing what you want to see. I stated no such thing.
The only thing I've been asserting is that Al-Quran, relative to guidance, is fully detailed and that fasala expresses the meaning of fully detailed.
I know this is what you've been asserting, and I disagree with the latter. And in a resulting issue, I disagree with me making any contradictory statement.
Tell me how to do this and I will, no problem.
The invitation has been made, if people wish to come forth, they can, if they dont, they dont have to. Simple.
In the meantime, I suggest you re-read my posts.
Wakas
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PEACE, WAKAS,
Then, you turn around and say that it is not fully detailed in content but style???
This is yet another example of you seeing what you want to see. I stated no such thing.
Well, that is quite possible, so, please, tell me what I misread. Here is your quote
However, that does not change the fact that 'fassala' does not mean 'fully detailed'. The argument put forth that if the text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this equates to the text being fully detailed is INCORRECT. If a text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this is making a reference to its style, NOT its content.
I am quoted as saying
"Then, you turn around and say that it is not fully detailed in content but style??? This, by any definition of the term, is contradictory---"to be inconsistent".
What did I get wrong as to what you stated?? Either you are contradicting yourself, or, you are agreeing with me that, Al-Quran's style is to be--clear/ban and fully detailed/fasala. Which is it?
I know this is what you've been asserting, and I disagree with the latter. And in a resulting issue, I disagree with me making any contradictory statement.
What, then, is the word you are using for fully detailed, relative, to guidance? Please answer this. As I said, we cannot make claims and then not provide the ayat/proof.
Tell me how to do this and I will, no problem.
The invitation has been made, if people wish to come forth, they can, if they dont, they dont have to. Simple.
O.k. I will start a thread--IS AL-QURAN, RELATIVE TO/SPECIFIC TO, GUIDANCE, FULLY DETAILED IN STYLE OR CONTENT...OR BOTH?
I'll use your quote
The argument put forth that if the text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this equates to the text being fully detailed is INCORRECT. If a text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this is making a reference to its style, NOT its content.
What do you think?
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peace,
I believe this is sufficient evidence against your extrapolation/embellishment/misrepresentation upon my comments
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide. That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do.
Please note his ommission of not highlighting the part in blue. This distorted my view.
He then goes onto state
- please explain why both mine and Wakas's conclusion that, relative to guidance, Al-Quran is fasala...fully detailed.
One again, distorting my view. Not once did I state that fassala=fully detailed.
I believe this is what Wakas also understood, hence, his reply
If he disagrees with me, then why in his finally post to me, did he say the following about fassalnahu relative to Al-Quran and guidance
He had to admit that, fasala, to be 'explained distinctly/clearly' or 'explained in a distinguishing/clarifying manner' or 'distinctly/clearly explained', could not be that/could not achieve that end, if it weren't, at the same time...fully detailed in that explanation.
Where did I admit that? Your embellishment/extrapolation/misrepresentation is in direct contradiction with my answer
My view of 'fassala=distinguish' can co-exist with such a view. Something can be explained in a distinguishing/clarifying/distinct manner by the presentation/style/content. For example, the distinguishing/clarifying way 'al quran' uses internal tafsir/explanation of its concepts/terms. The way it uses contrast, the way it uses examples/parables to explain its points etc.
The argument put forth that if the text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this equates to the text being fully detailed is INCORRECT. If a text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this is making a reference to its style, NOT its content.
it isn't the case that Omar doesn't know what he is talking about, rather, his definition is more comprehensive and exact
Perhaps this is where you are going wrong. One must know what a dictionary is, before one uses it. Just because the dictionary states 5 meanings for example, doesn't mean these can be rolled together into one super-exact-definition and this is the meaning applicable in all occurrences in 'al quran'.
As a result, I'd like to give you some more dictionary definitions
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dictionary
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=embellish
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=extrapolate
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=interpret
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=misrepresent
O.k. I will start a thread--IS AL-QURAN, RELATIVE TO/SPECIFIC TO, GUIDANCE, FULLY DETAILED IN STYLE OR CONTENT...OR BOTH?
Do you hear yourself? Do you honestly think someone you described as "intellectually honest" would make an absurd claim that 'al quran' is fully detailed in style? I have a radical idea, could it be that you misinterpreted what I said and ran away with it, then when I clarified my position, you then thought I was contradicting myself.
I have no more to say on this matter.
Wakas
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PEACE, WAKAS,
Do you hear yourself? Do you honestly think someone you described as "intellectually honest" would make an absurd claim that 'al quran' is fully detailed in style? I have a radical idea, could it be that you misinterpreted what I said and ran away with it, then when I clarified my position, you then thought I was contradicting myself.
Wakas, relative to Al-Quran being fully detailed, the only thing we are discussing is, it being fully detailed relative to/specific to---guidance, that is it. Whatever details regarding the concept of righteous deeds are all in Al-Quran. I'm not talking about listing all the possible righteous deeds which can be performed, hence, the following part of your post is not relevent to our discussion.
...That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do.
A). Wakas, I can only go on what you said, to wit
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
However, that does not change the fact that 'fassala' does not mean 'fully detailed'. The argument put forth that if the text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this equates to the text being fully detailed is INCORRECT. If a text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this is making a reference to its style, NOT its content.
I am quoted as saying
"On one hand, you agreed with me that Al-Quran, in its purpose/reason for existence, is to guide mankind, and, in that, it is fully detailed, hence, the contents of Al-Quran--the ayats, those things that do the guiding, must be fully detailed regarding guidance. Then, you turn around and say that it is not fully detailed in content but style??? This, by any definition of the term, is contradictory---"to be inconsistent".
I ask you again...what did I get wrong as to what you stated?? Either you are contradicting yourself, or, you are agreeing with me that, Al-Quran's style is to be--clear/bana and fully detailed/fasala. Which is it? You, thus far, have not explained...your detail in style vs not being detailed in content, assertion, please do so, come on.
B). Again, what is the word you are using for fully detailed, relative, to guidance? Please answer this. As I said, we cannot make claims and then not provide the ayat/proof.
I have no more to say on this matter.
Come on, don't do this brother. I do see you as being an intellectually honest individual, but honestly, right now, I do think you are copping-out. If it were the other way around, I would not end the conversation with you until I either conceded a point to you or proved my own. Copping out, in my opinion, is not being intellectually honest, agreed? If so, then please address A and B.
Peace and looking forward to your reply
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salam pb,
The likely reason people do not like to discuss with you after a while, is because it becomes more and more obvious that you are agenda driven.
This means that you've already decided what you believe in, and you are looking for any possible means to justify it, regardless of the truth of those methods.
A prime example is your "linguistic analysis," which is IDENTICAL to apple pie's methods. You repeatedly turn a blind eye to the multitude of evidence presented to you, and you blindly clutch Omar's faulty QD claiming ridiculous things like maybe he's right and everyone else is wrong.
You make a big deal about wakas agreeing with you, (which ironically enough turned out not to be true), while it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT how many people agree or disagree with you... truth is truth, regardless of popularity.
If people would simply accept 1+1=2, then, there would be no need to repaeat things.
Spoken like a true dogmatist.
If Allah wanted a specific punishment for drinking, He would have, as He did with the specific fahusha/indency of zina , detailed it in Al-Quran. The guidance, then, on drinking is...Allah has left it up to each community/society to determine how to deal with it...that is the guidance on it.
Thanks for finally answering the question... actually, you answered it in pretty much the same way i did in my very first post on this thread.
Now, if you look back in my previous posts about my definition of principles and laws (or principles and details/applications)... the fact that zina and drinking are fahisha (bad) are principles. The fact the zina gets punished with 80 lashes is the application/detail/law.
You agree with me that drinking needs to be dealt with and this is not given in the Quran, hence its "up to each community/society to determine to how deal with it" (in your own words). However, this application/detail/law is NOT found in the Quran now is it?
Do you NOW understand what I mean by the Quran is not fully detailed?
This is not an opinion, it's an obvious fact... all the applications of principles/laws/details are just not there... yet some are. And I explained the wisdom/reason behind this in my very first post. -
PEACE, SHUAIB,
salam pb,
You repeatedly turn a blind eye to the multitude of evidence presented to you, and you blindly clutch Omar's faulty QD claiming ridiculous things like maybe he's right and everyone else is wrong.
Not only did I give Omar's definition, but Hans Wehr's and Steingass, as well. Both Omar and Wehr, agree with the definition that Wakas and you so cling to, but also defined the term as detailed as well. Now, let me ask you a question, seeing how you are so grounded in the Arabic langauge, are you going to say that absolutely that, fasala, cannot mean detailed, is this your position, yes or no?
You make a big deal about wakas agreeing with you, (which ironically enough turned out not to be true), while it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT how many people agree or disagree with you... truth is truth, regardless of popularity.
Wakas did agree with me. My only point has been that, relative to/specific to GUIDANCE, that Al-Quran is fully detailed, THAT IS ALL, to wit
Main EntryGUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Wakas, contrary to your above claim, did agree with me on Al-Quran being fully detailed as a...guide, to wit
WAKAS My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose....It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
Now, are you going to say that I'm not reading his quoted clearly, please? He said exactly the same thing I said, my God.
Thanks for finally answering the question... actually, you answered it in pretty much the same way i did in my very first post on this thread.
I've answered this question at least twice now, but you have elected to ignore the answer.
Now, if you look back in my previous posts about my definition of principles and laws (or principles and details/applications)... the fact that zina and drinking are fahisha (bad) are principles. The fact the zina gets punished with 80 lashes is the application/detail/law.
And?
You agree with me that drinking needs to be dealt with and this is not given in the Quran, hence its "up to each community/society to determine to how deal with it" (in your own words). However, this application/detail/law is NOT found in the Quran now is it?
Just because Allah allows man to come up with the exact punishment for the misuse of intoxicants, does not mean He has not given the GUIDANCE on it. My understanding is that He told mankind to AVOID doing it, because while there is some benefit it, there is greater harm in it...AND THAT IS THE GUIDANCE ON IT. Allah, has not left mankind bereft of guidance concerning drinking. How is Allah going to prescibe a punishment for something that He says has some benefit in it? Each society must, on its own, designate what it considers the abuse of intoxicants and then design a means to deal with it. Now what more do you want?
Do you NOW understand what I mean by the Quran is not fully detailed? This is not an opinion, it's an obvious fact... all the applications of principles/laws/details are just not there... yet some are. And I explained the wisdom/reason behind this in my very first post.
I've ALWAYS understood what your erroneous position. I continue to say that Al-Quran, relative/specific to guidance, is fully detailed. You, rather than understanding that, choose to use detailed regarding everything under the sun. Allah, has not made any claim that Al-Quran is fully detailed on everything i.e. how to do the flamingo. What are you talking about.
Let me ask you a question
IS IT YOUR POSITION ,THEN THAT, RELATIVE TO/SPECIFIC TO--GUIDANCE THAT, AL-QURAN, IS NOT FULLY DETAILED? I'M NOT ASKING ABOUT AL-QURAN BEING FULLY DETAILED IN ANY OTHER MATTER, JUST IN GUIDANCE . Please answer yes or no, thanks. I hope, as with Wakas, you will not bail when the chips are down.
The following, was my last post to Wakas. As you can see, he could extricate himself from his contradictions and bailed. Perhaps you can ask him, as I did unsuccessfully, what Quranic term is he using to define fully detailed.
WAKAS
Do you hear yourself? Do you honestly think someone you described as "intellectually honest" would make an absurd claim that 'al quran' is fully detailed in style? I have a radical idea, could it be that you misinterpreted what I said and ran away with it, then when I clarified my position, you then thought I was contradicting myself.Wakas, relative to Al-Quran being fully detailed, the only thing we are discussing is, it being fully detailed relative to/specific to---guidance, that is it. Whatever details regarding the concept of righteous deeds are all in Al-Quran. I'm not talking about listing all the possible righteous deeds which can be performed, hence, the following part of your post is not relevent to our discussion.
WAKAS
...That does not mean every single thing must be detailed within it. For example, if it says one should do righteous deeds, that does not mean it must list every single righteous deed possible for one to do.WAKAS
My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose...It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.WAKAS
However, that does not change the fact that 'fassala' does not mean 'fully detailed'. The argument put forth that if the text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this equates to the text being fully detailed is INCORRECT. If a text is explained in a 'fassala' manner, this is making a reference to its style, NOT its content.I am quoted as saying
"On one hand, you agreed with me that Al-Quran, in its purpose/reason for existence, is to guide mankind, and, in that, it is fully detailed, hence, the contents of Al-Quran--the ayats, those things that do the guiding, must be fully detailed regarding guidance. Then, you turn around and say that it is not fully detailed in content but style??? This, by any definition of the term, is contradictory---"to be inconsistent".
I ask you again...what did I get wrong as to what you stated?? Either you are contradicting yourself, or, you are agreeing with me that, Al-Quran's style is to be--clear/bana and fully detailed/fasala. Which is it? You, thus far, have not explained...your detail in style vs not being detailed in content, assertion, please do so, come on.
B). Again, what is the word you are using for fully detailed, relative, to guidance? Please answer this. As I said, we cannot make claims and then not provide the ayat/proof.
Looking forward, with great anticipation, to your reply.
Peace.
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salam pb,
you're becoming quite the lost cause unfortunately, because of the way you are discussing. you have total disregard for evidence, and repeatedly so.
Not only did I give Omar's definition, but Hans Wehr's and Steingass, as well.
the more you talk the more you incriminate yourself. you are using MODERN ARABIC dictionaries... it is well known that meanings creep into Arabic words in modern Arabic, which are totally different from the true classic meanings.
Keep it up mr. makeshift professor of arabic without actually knowing arabic.
Wakas did agree with me.
you love putting words in people's mouths don't you? come on, have some scruples! he just went back and forth with you in several posts before finally getting sick of you. i'm not going to put words in his mouth, but i think it's obvious that he decided that fassala DOES NOT MEAN fully detailed... and wasn't that the whole issue here? Wasn't that how this thread got started?
Besides, it's irrelevant whether he agreed or not. The fact you CONTINUE to talk about this shows your immaturity. Whether he agreed or not is irrelevant, and you continue to show the forum the low level of your arguing techniques.
Just because Allah allows man to come up with the exact punishment for the misuse of intoxicants, does not mean He has not given the GUIDANCE on it.
It's amazing how short your attention span is. Let's go back to what i JUST said...
I SAID
Now, if you look back in my previous posts about my definition of principles and laws (or principles and details/applications)... the fact that zina and drinking are fahisha (bad) are principles.
In other words, we have gotten FULL "guidance" or "principles" on both drinking and zina.
However, we ALSO get DETAILS/LAWS/APPLICATIONS about zina... 80 lashes.
We DONT get this for drinking. You AGREE with me that it needs to be dealt with, and the community has to come up with the technique (your own words). IN OTHER WORDS, the DETAIL/LAW/APPLICATION for drinking is NOT THERE (compare this to zina, which IS THERE).
Please don't mix up the term DETAILED and COMPLETE. That is what you are doing here... when I say the Quran is not detailed (which is obvious) you immediately say "Well you're just saying the Quran is incomplete." As I said before, the Quran CAN be complete WITHOUT giving us ALL the applications/details.
Also note, according to my definitions the claim "the guidance is fully detailed in the Quran" MEANS that the principles PLUS the application is given. You are using fully detailed to mean the guidance is complete. This is NOT what I am talking about.. when I say fully detailed it means the guidance is complete AND the applications/details/laws are given for ALL the principles in the Quran.
Most of the confusion stems from your blind adherence to your modern arabic dictionaries.
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Peace be upon you,
The God guides us towards ending debates when arguing cannot be avoided...."there is no arguing(jidala) in the debate"(Hajj)"
When arguing is taking place, we have left the realm of "Oneness" and we now see an "enemy" (so to speak). We should refrain and use that energy to transcend the emotional state and get back to PEACE. Peace is more important, debates must be halted for the sake of PEACE, we do not trade PEACE for a miserable price. We start our posts of with the greeting to invoke peace, so how can we then turn around and invoke tension with our statements, wether initiated or in response.
Just a reminder for myself and everyone else involved in this and all threads.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
you're becoming quite the lost cause unfortunately, because of the way you are discussing. you have total disregard for evidence, and repeatedly so...come on, have some scruples!...Keep it up mr. makeshift professor of arabic without actually knowing arabic...The fact you CONTINUE to talk about this shows your immaturity. Whether he agreed or not is irrelevant, and you continue to show the forum the low level of your arguing techniques...Most of the confusion stems from your blind adherence to your modern arabic dictionaries.
No personal attacks please; keep to the issues, thanks.
the more you talk the more you incriminate yourself. you are using MODERN ARABIC dictionaries... it is well known that meanings creep into Arabic words in modern Arabic, which are totally different from the true classic meanings.
This is simply your opinion, nothing more.
Wakas did agree with me.
you love putting words in people's mouths don't you? come on, have some scruples! he just went back and forth with you in several posts before finally getting sick of you. i'm not going to put words in his mouth, but i think it's obvious that he decided that fassala DOES NOT MEAN fully detailed... and wasn't that the whole issue here? Wasn't that how this thread got started?
LOL! You are evading, once again, what he and I agreed on, why do you continue to do this? Let me post, for the fourth time at least, where Wakas and I agree
PRIEST BOKMEI Relative to/specific to--Guidance, Al-Quran is fully detailed.
WAKAS My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose....It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
Now, there you have it. What are you going to deny, that he didn't agree with my proposition?
Then I asked him
What Quranic word/term, are using for--fully detailed?
He made a claim about Al-Quran, to wit that, as a guide, it is fully detailed, hence, he is now required to prove that, hence, he is required to produce the Quranic term to justify his calling Allah's Quran---fully detailed? After being confronted with this question, he bailed out of the discussion...why? And please don't give me the "he's sick of me", baloney, because that is blaming.
In other words, we have gotten FULL "guidance" or "principles" on both drinking and zina.
Thank you, and that is all I've been arguing!
However, we ALSO get DETAILS/LAWS/APPLICATIONS about zina... 80 lashes.
Because that is Allah's guidance on zina. His guidance on drinking is..."people, you deal with it". What's the problem?
Please don't mix up the term DETAILED and COMPLETE. That is what you are doing here... when I say the Quran is not detailed (which is obvious) you immediately say "Well you're just saying the Quran is incomplete." As I said before, the Quran CAN be complete WITHOUT giving us ALL the applications/details.
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
53...This day have I perfected for you your Deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as your Deen..
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
( Now, would you look at that. Detail, means to report minutely and distinctly. So, let me get this straight, if something, as M-W asserts, is reported in a minute and distinct manner...it is detailed.
Check out what Allah says
1712...all things have We explained in detail.
1712...shayin fassalnahu tafseela.
WAKAS, said I would translate the following 'fassalnahu tafseela' as 'explained distinctly/clearly' or 'explained in a distinguishing/clarifying manner' or 'distinctly/clearly explained'.
Wow, would you look at that, Wakas, defined detail the same way as M-W. Instead of using "report", he uses "explain", and the both he and M-W, use "distinct". Without a doubt, fasala, means detailed. So, Allah, Wakas, M-W...all define detail the same way, hence, when Allah says "fassalnahu tafseela", He can only mean..detail miunutely and distinctly...the details)
GUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Now, here is the question and it will only require a yes or no response . Given the above ayats and defintions
Are ALL of the NECESSARY/COMPLETE DETAILS, RELATIVE TO MANKIND'S GUIDANCE , found in Allah's Quran. Yes or no?
Also note, according to my definitions the claim "the guidance is fully detailed in the Quran" MEANS that the principles PLUS the application is given.
Where did you get this from?? Tell you what, please pull out your ayats and prove your assertion.
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
If guidance, according to you, means principles plus applications , then Allah, in 2185, Has made a mistake, because, according to you, in that, Allah didn't give the "application", as you define it, for dealing with drinking, His Quran then, cannot, in fact, relative to/specific to guidance, be fully detailed. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways.
You are using fully detailed to mean the guidance is complete.
Exactly right! That is all I've been arguing.
This is NOT what I am talking about.. when I say fully detailed it means the guidance is complete AND the applications/details/laws are given for ALL the principles in the Quran.
LOL! Well, then you've made this up and now ascribe it to Allah's Quran. Either Allah's Quran, relative to/specific to GUIDANCE, is complete, fully detailed, and perfect...or it is not. Does Allah, anywhere, say that His Quran is not fully detailed in IT'S guidance/that somewhere it is lacking in guidance?, because for you to claim it is, relative to the "guidance of applications", then you must provide the proof/ayat where Allah says what you are ascribing to Him.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, WAKAS AND SUHAIB,
Perhaps you guys can focus on this specifically, thanks.
You are evading, once again, what he and I agreed on, why do you continue to do this? Let me post, for the fourth time at least, where Wakas and I agree
PRIEST BOKMEI Relative to/specific to--Guidance, Al-Quran is fully detailed.
WAKAS My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose....It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
Now, there you have it. What are you going to deny, that he didn't agree with my proposition?
Then I asked him
What Quranic word/term, are using for--fully detailed?
He made a claim about Al-Quran, to wit that, as a guide, it is fully detailed, hence, he is now required to prove that, hence, he is required to produce the Quranic term to justify his calling Allah's Quran---fully detailed? After being confronted with this question, he bailed out of the discussion...why? And please don't give me the "he's sick of me", baloney, because that is blaming.
Looking forward to your replies.
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PEACE, IDOL,
Perhaps you could chime in and help bring resolution to the debate. You were never one to shy from debate, so...why now?
What is your Quranic understanding of this debate?
Looking forward to your reply.
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salam pb,
it's too bad that it has come to this. i was thinking that perhaps you had a sincere desire for truth, and that discussion may be of benefit.
you keep talking about wakas when that is the most irrelevant thing to talk about in this discussion... and then ask for idol to come and "resolve the debate." Bro, truth is truth. REGARDLESS OF POPULARITY. The fact you KEEP talking to me about wakas as if it matters that he agrees/disagrees, is just pathetic.
It's also sad how you claim that its "my opinion," when I present evidence from the classical lexicons... but somehow, when you blindly adhere to these modern Arabic dictionaries, it's evidence.
Because that is Allah's guidance on zina. His guidance on drinking is..."people, you deal with it". What's the problem?
Is "you people deal with it," SPECIFIC? is it DETAILED? Detail means there is one possibility....
80 lashes. Now THAT is detailed... no confusion, no ifs ands buts or ability to change things.
Compare that to "you people deal with it."
Call me crazy, but if there is a recipe book and the recipe says "figure it out on your own," IS THAT DETAILED???
But despite our differences, we are essentially talking about the same thing and basically even saying the same thing... the only thing I disagree with is that the term detailed is just a wrong use of the word since the Quran is NOT detailed. Complete, perfect, but not detailed since detailed would mean that EVERYTHING was explained .... IN DETAIL... that when it came time to punish drinking, it was .... explained... you guessed it... IN DETAIL! Detail is not "figure it out yourself." Detail is this is exactly how you do it (such as in zina).
(This is not to say we dont have guidance on what to do... of course we do. We all have an idea how to deal with drinking... undetailed guidance is NOT equal to detailed guidance, but in both cases, it is SUFFICIENT.)
I hope someday you will put in the effort to actually learn the language of the Quran, araby mubeen... and then will compare these modern dictionaries to the classical lexicons and see for yourself the difference.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
You've referred to me on a couple of occasions, and erroneously so, as being intellectually dishonest and immature, yes? Well, why then, don't you behave in an intellectully honest and mature manner and simply answer, at last, the following?
244 Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget to practice it yourselves, and yet you study the Scripture? Will you not understand?
Please answer the following, much obliged. Perhaps Wakas will also address his comments.
PEACE, WAKAS AND SUHAIB,
Perhaps you guys can focus on this specifically, thanks.
You are evading, once again, what he and I agreed on, why do you continue to do this? Let me post, for the fifth time at least, where Wakas and I agree
PRIEST BOKMEI Relative to/specific to--Guidance, Al-Quran is fully detailed.
WAKAS My view is that al quran contains all the guidance we need with respect to its purpose....It is fully detailed with respect to its purpose as a guide.
Now, there you have it. What are you going to deny, that he didn't agree with my proposition?
Then I asked him
What Quranic word/term, are you using for--fully detailed?
He made a claim about Al-Quran, to wit that, as a guide, it is fully detailed, hence, he is now required to prove that, hence, he is required to produce the Quranic term to justify his calling Allah's Quran---fully detailed? After being confronted with this question, he bailed out of the discussion...why? And please don't give me the "he's sick of me", baloney, because that is blaming.
Please stop evading the central issue of the debate, thanks.
Looking forward to your replies.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
But despite our differences, we are essentially talking about the same thing and basically even saying the same thing... the only thing I disagree with is that the term detailed is just a wrong use of the word since the Quran is NOT detailed. Complete, perfect, but not detailed since detailed would mean that EVERYTHING was explained .... IN DETAIL... that when it came time to punish drinking, it was .... explained... you guessed it... IN DETAIL! Detail is not "figure it out yourself." Detail is this is exactly how you do it (such as in zina).
You can differ with the term detailed all you wish, however, it will not change matters. You continue to want to align the use of detail with EVERYTHING while Allah is not. Fully detailed is only in reference to His Quran being that, relative to/specific to--GUIDANCE, that is all.
(This is not to say we dont have guidance on what to do... of course we do. We all have an idea how to deal with drinking... undetailed guidance is NOT equal to detailed guidance, but in both cases, it is SUFFICIENT.)
Well, given that we have guidance as to what to do, then we have the guidance, what is the problem?
"Undetailed" guidance, relative to Al-Quran, is an oxymoron. Guidance is guidance is guidance.
Please don't focus on this post and continue to ignore the previous one, thanks.
Peace and looking forward to your reply.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Perhaps you could chime in and help bring resolution to the debate. You were never one to shy from debate, so...why now?
lol You know something respected brother, our debates taught me some imprtant lessons. There comes a point when the debates trun into arguments and the God instructs us that there is no arguing in the debate, so I back away a lot more these days, so that I don't develop headaches as Shuiab says he does when he leaves this forum. There is no compulsion in this system, so I give my examples from time to time and then turn away. It is up to each individual to do thier own work.
Regarding this topic, I saw you state that you were seeing my understanding a little better, but still not convinced, so I was letting you work it out.
What is your Quranic understanding of this debate?
I'll chime in again shortly, but the basis of my understanding has been given, all one needs to do is to collect all occurences and check it out. I have to get caught back up first then I will give more input.
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salam pb,
You've referred to me on a couple of occasions, and erroneously so, as being intellectually dishonest and immature, yes?
i've explained exactly what I meant by these things.. blindly clutching modern dictionaries while TOTALLY ignoring the plethora of evidence others have given you is what i refer to as dishonest. ESPECIALLY since this is a field that you truly have no TRUE knowledge of... Arabic!
APPLE PIE ANYONE?? You are no different than apple pie in your techniques.
Well, why then, don't you behave in an intellectully honest and mature manner and simply answer, at last, the following? 244 Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget to practice it yourselves, and yet you study the Scripture? Will you not understand?
Well this is quite bizarre.. but yes i understand and will practice as i preach, just as the Quran has ordered.
What's your point?
It's really quite sad and pathetic to see you repeatedly drag wakas in this.. as if it mattered whether he agrees or disagrees.
Sorry if I didnt answer your question, but you certainly didn't make it obvious exactly what you were asking.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
salam pb,
You've referred to me on a couple of occasions, and erroneously so, as being intellectually dishonest and immature, yes?
i've explained exactly what I meant by these things.. blindly clutching modern dictionaries while TOTALLY ignoring the plethora of evidence others have given you is what i refer to as dishonest. ESPECIALLY since this is a field that you truly have no TRUE knowledge of... Arabic!
APPLE PIE ANYONE?? You are no different than apple pie in your techniques.
Well, why then, don't you behave in an intellectully honest and mature manner and simply answer, at last, the following? 244 Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget to practice it yourselves, and yet you study the Scripture? Will you not understand?
Well this is quite bizarre.. but yes i understand and will practice as i preach, just as the Quran has ordered.
What's your point?
It's really quite sad and pathetic to see you repeatedly drag wakas in this.. as if it mattered whether he agrees or disagrees.
Sorry if I didnt answer your question, but you certainly didn't make it obvious exactly what you were asking.
Why won't you answer my question? Why do you continue to focus on personal stuff and avoid the issue of this thread?
What I asked was quite obvious, and well you know it. Your refusal to address my last two post to you, only solidifies the correctness of my position that, fasala, means fully detailed, as well as, relative to/specific to guidance, Al-Quran is fasla. In contrast, you have done both Al-Quran and yourself a great diservice by not being honest and answering my questions to you. You, and unfortunately Wakas, whom, I respect immensely, have seriously damaged your reputations. When people run and duck clearly asked questions, because they don't want to admit when they are wrong, it can only damage their credibility. Nothing else you say here at Free-Minds, for those who have read this thread anyway, can be fully respected or trusted now. Reputation/credibility is worth more than gold or platinum, and you've lost yours with me. Oh, btw, don't you believe that Allah has taken note of this discussion? If so, what are you running from?
Peace.
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salam pb,
thanks for your analysis of my credibility... it's amazing how much value your words about "credibility" have.. considering your tactics. And your little "tantrum" does wonders to establish your maturity level as well.
Nothing else you say here at Free-Minds, for those who have read this thread anyway, can be fully respected or trusted now.
Wow, again.. i didn't realize you were the mind heart soul and voice of free-minds forum. First you put words into wakas' mouth (according to him you MISREPRESENTED him), and now you put words in the rest of the forums mouths...
I'm the one making a bad name for myself??
Why won't you answer my question? Why do you continue to focus on personal stuff and avoid the issue of this thread?
What I asked was quite obvious, and well you know it.
Your refusal to address my last two post to you, only solidifies the correctness of my position that, fasala, means fully detailed...Do me a favor... look back at your last post and tell me WHERE that question is???
What Quranic word/term, are you using for--fully detailed?
Here's one of your questions, but certainly this question is for wakas and not myself since I have not explained the Quran as being FULLY DETAILED. You are the one trying to prove its fully detailed, not me.. for me, it doesn't matter if the phrase fully detailed is NEVER found in the Quran, it doesn't affect my position... however for you, it is critically important.
Which is exactly why you cling to your inaccurate modern Arabic "dictionaries" with such apple-pie-esque stubborness.
Like I said in my previous post
Sorry if I didnt answer your question, but you certainly didn't make it obvious exactly what you were asking.
Are these the words of someone avoiding a question? It's not my fault if you are a poor communicator. I honestly looked for a question to answer, and I have nothing to hide from questions. Quote your previous post what EXACTLY you asked, then I can be more sure about what you are asking.
