=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
-
Peace Be upon you Shuiab,
Quote
"... who try to write The Universal Laws(Al Kitaab) down into a book "According to your interpretation, there is a word in that verse that means book. What is it?
Which Verse?
The only word I would translate as "book" is "kitaab", but when refering to THE God's "Book" we are talking about the universal laws, just as we can talk about hands and faces yet when we speak of the God's "hands" and "face", we realize the higher understanding.
-
salam idol
Which Verse?
i swear, sometimes i walk away from this forum with a headache. I was trying to be subtle but apparently the effect was completely lost on you.
To jog your memory, I quoted verse 279 and asked for your interpretation. You said
The verse says that Woe/Regret is upon those who try to write The Universal Laws(Al Kitaab) down into a book and claim some type of holiness for that writing saying it is from the God. The God did not write any books, all Creation is The God's Book.
To which I said, obviously it appears that you are translating a particular word in that verse as book. What is it..
But apparently since being precise is not in your nature, and subtlety is entirely lost on you... let me elaborate.
In that verse, the world al-kitaab occurs ONLY once. Yet in that same verse you give one word 2 simulatenous meanings "The universal laws" and "a book." It'd be one thing if the word al-kitaab occurred twice in the verse.. but in this case it occurred just once!
It's obvious you didn't spend more than a couple seconds thinking up an "interpretation" to that verse... it's also obvious you did not translate from the original Arabic.
And finally, it's obvious from 267 that AL-KITAAB was the term for this false book of God. This is just yet another example of how al-kitaab does not mean universal laws.
The meaning of "universal laws" is derived not from the Arabic and not from any verse in the Quran. It is an entirely artificial meaning that you are forcing into the word to satisfy your preconceived notions of the world.
-
Peace be upon you Shuaib,
Quote
Which Verse?i swear, sometimes i walk away from this forum with a headache. I was trying to be subtle but apparently the effect was completely lost on you.
Sorry, next time I will just guess at which verse you were referring to. If this forum gives you headaches than it would be insanity to keep comiung back. We should always strive for a peaceful state of mind.
To jog your memory, I quoted verse 279 and asked for your interpretation. You said
Quote
The verse says that Woe/Regret is upon those who try to write The Universal Laws(Al Kitaab) down into a book and claim some type of holiness for that writing saying it is from the God. The God did not write any books, all Creation is The God's Book.To which I said, obviously it appears that you are translating a particular word in that verse as book. What is it..
But apparently since being precise is not in your nature, and subtlety is entirely lost on you... let me elaborate.
In that verse, the world al-kitaab occurs ONLY once. Yet in that same verse you give one word 2 simulatenous meanings "The universal laws" and "a book." It'd be one thing if the word al-kitaab occurred twice in the verse.. but in this case it occurred just once!
It's obvious you didn't spend more than a couple seconds thinking up an "interpretation" to that verse... it's also obvious you did not translate from the original Arabic.
And finally, it's obvious from 267 that AL-KITAAB was the term for this false book of God. This is just yet another example of how al-kitaab does not mean universal laws.
Here is what I am saying. The God has universal laws, they are INSPIRED to men so they may "AWAKEN" to true life. The rest are "walking dead". The Universal LAws are not a BOOK, they are the cause and effect of the CREATED UNIVERSE. Now, what the verse was saying is that some people try to write the UNIVERSAL LAWS with thier own hands. Please note that I have only used one "kitaab" here, since you could not understand what I was saying before. That which is written with the HANDS would be a physical book. There is NO PHYSICAL BOOK written by the God, only MEN write physical books. These physical books written by men who are INSPIRED BY THE GOD do indeed guide us to the UNIVERSAL LAWS(cause and effect), but they are not written by the God.
The meaning of "universal laws" is derived not from the Arabic and not from any verse in the Quran. It is an entirely artificial meaning that you are forcing into the word to satisfy your preconceived notions of the world.
You are welcome to your opinion, there is no compulsion from me brother. I hope you find the guidance to help you maintain your state of peace and not get emotional headaches.
-
salams idol,
actually, what i'm trying to tell you is that your interpretation of 279 is mere philosophization on the english translation.it has nothing to do with the actual arabic of that verse. your response about writing with hands and physical books shows more of the same... philosophy upon philosophy, without bothering to check if your interpretation actually agrees with the Arabic verse.
allow me to demonstrate. since the meaning of al-kitaab is in question here, let's translate the other parts and look at the verse again.
Woe to those who write AL-KITAAB-A with their own hands and then claim
it is from Allah.It is clear from this verse that AL-KITAAB-A is the object of the verb write, of which the subject is ALLATHEENA (those). It is therefore absolutely obvious, that al-kitaaba is referring to none other than the false writings... if it referred to uniersal lawsd, that would mean allatheena wrote the universal laws!! which obviously is false.
there is NO mention of another al-kitaab FROM WHICH they are writing or PRETENDING to write about. It does not say yaktuboona al-kitaaba min al-kitaabi or anything like that.
so again, making random philosophies based on english trans and then philosophizing on the philosophies without EVER bothering to confirm with the true arabic is just irresponsible.
-
Peace be upon you Shuaib,
The verse should be translated as follows
(279) So grief/distress/woe to those who write The Book with their hands then they say "This from at The God." To buy with it a small price, so grief/distress/woe to them from what their hands wrote , and grief/distress/woe to them from what they gather/acquire.
Brother , what I am saying is that Al Kitaab is used to speak about the God's Universal Laws, the cause and effect written upon the creation. But what I understand the verse to say is that when someone writes a book expounding on Truths, they must leave it at that, not go on and try to assign authorship to the God, because then you are limiting the God to 114 chapters. The God's Message is the message of truth, any statement of truth is the God's Message. Any statement that does not contradict the cause and effect of live is the God's word. So when we hear something read to us, we must search for contradiction to ascertain if it is from the God or not, and what the God has to write cannot be held in a human book.
So YES, a human can write the Book with thier hands, if you don't thinik so then why do you trust the reading(quran) so much? It was written by a man as well, pious scribes. But we cannot say it is the God's. Even if the trees were pens and oceans inkthe Words of the God would not run out. This reading is a guide to the God's Book(Kitaab).
A mathematics book is Universal LAw, but we don't say it is from the GOd.
Lastly, you understand the "al kitaab" to be false books, but it is not plural, so how can it be talking about the many different books? Universal LAW reduces to "Be and it Becomes", so no need for Plural. everything is ONENESS. The God's BOOK is wriitten from the Horizons to within our Spirits.
-
salam idol,
about the plural, i meant it as a generality but yes obviously in that particular verse, it is in the singular.
someone writes a book expounding on Truths, they must leave it at that, not go on and try to assign authorship to the God
God's Message is the message of truth, any statement of truth is the God's Message.
So when we hear something read to us, we must search for contradiction to ascertain if it is from the God or not
My first question is, don't you see the contradiction in the above statements you made? On the one hand you are interpreting the verse to say DO NOT attribute al-kitaab written by their hands to Allah, on the other hand you are saying anything we hear that is truth IS FROM Allah.
Second question, that verse is not saying that those people wrote A book. It says they write AL-KITAAB.
Third question,
they must leave it at that, not go on and try to assign authorship to the God, because then you are limiting the God to 114 chapters.
Dont you believe that God authored the Quran? If not God then whose words are they?
-
Peace be upon you Shuiab,
My first question is, don't you see the contradiction in the above statements you made? On the one hand you are interpreting the verse to say DO NOT attribute al-kitaab written by their hands to Allah, on the other hand you are saying anything we hear that is truth IS FROM Allah.
There is no contradiction in those statements. Yes, anything that is truthful is from the God, but it is not described as "Al Kitaab", it would be described as the God's reading(quran). The God's Book (al Kitaab) is everything in the universe, created from The God's "Word".
Second question, that verse is not saying that those people wrote A book. It says they write AL-KITAAB.
Yes, it says they wrote Universal Law with thier own hands, The Book. I never said anything different so this is not a point needed to be corrected.
Dont you believe that God authored the Quran? If not God then whose words are they?
I believe pious scribes WROTE this reading(quran) with thier hands, the initial message was intuited by a person who transcended to the level of Prophethood. The error was in claiming the God as the author, thus limiting the God's Words. The Gods words never run out, this reading ends at chapter 114. It is a guide, written by man, if it is true and does not contradict, then it is from the God , but not authored by the God.
Are not ALL THINGS from the God?
Let me ask you a question, the verse says do not write the Book with your hands, if you think it is talking about the "Quran" , then was it okay in that case to write it with human hands?
-
salams idol,
The God's Book (al Kitaab) is everything in the universe, created from The God's "Word".
Yes, it says they wrote Universal Law with thier own hands, The Book. I never said anything different so this is not a point needed to be corrected.
Dont you see the contradiction in the above... you SIMULATANEOUSLY are taking the word AL-KITAAB to mean both the book that they wrote with their hands, as WELL as everything in the universe.
Tell me, did those people write with their hands everything in the universe and then say it was from God? Or did they write a book??
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Are not ALL THINGS from the God?
You're being a bit silly here... all things are due to God because he created everything... he ALSO created the people who corrupted the Bible and distorted the torah and introduced the hadith.
As THESE things FROM God? In a way yes... but they are falsehoods. Falsehoods created by people created by Allah who gave them free-will.
I believe pious scribes WROTE this reading(quran) with thier hands, the initial message was intuited by a person who transcended to the level of Prophethood. The error was in claiming the God as the author, thus limiting the God's Words. The Gods words never run out, this reading ends at chapter 114. It is a guide, written by man, if it is true and does not contradict, then it is from the God , but not authored by the God.
If this is your belief, then we have nothing more to talk about.
If I dictate a letter to my secretary.. who is the author? If someone copies a book, does the author change?
1037 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah..
-
PEACE, IDOL,
I believe pious scribes WROTE this reading(quran) with thier hands, the initial message was intuited by a person who transcended to the level of Prophethood. The error was in claiming the God as the author, thus limiting the God's Words. The Gods words never run out, this reading ends at chapter 114. It is a guide, written by man, if it is true and does not contradict, then it is from the God , but not authored by the God.
"If it doesn't contradict"?? Have you or anyone else found one?
1037 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah.
Main Entry PRODUCE to cause to have existence or to happen BRING ABOUT b to give being, form, or shape to.
Main Entry AUTHOR one that originates or creates source.
Given the above ayat and definitions, on what grounds do you maintain that Allah, is not the author of Al-Quran??
With each succeeding post, you are more and more casting doubt on the inviolability of Allah's Quran , thus, sacrificing it/forsaking it, for your, and I can only describe it as...dubious and slick interpetations.. Come back to common sense.
This goes for you too, Shuaib.
Looking forward to your reply
-
PEACE, IDOL,
The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab, you have agreed is fully detailed, yes? The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab, is comprised of Ayats , agreed? The Creation, as a whole, as well as all of its individual parts, are also Ayats. Al-Quran, "the Reading" , likewise, is comprised of Ayats. The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab is comprised of fully detailed Ayats, and, is a fully detailed Book in and of itself, as well as, all of its constituent parts. Now, given that Al-Quran is a part of the Book of Alllah/Al-Kitab/part of the Creation, then, as with IT, Al-Quran must also be...fully detailed.
Peace.
-
Peace be upon you Shuiab and PB,
Shuiab, yes i simultaneously take Kitaab to mean BOOK AND Universal Laws when refering to the God's Book. Just like I take the arabic word for "FACE" to be a literal face and also CHARACTER when refering to the God's face. Likewise I take the arabic word for HAND as a literal hand and also "control/power".
PB
The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab, you have agreed is fully detailed, yes?
Yes, the signs from the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds is fully detailed, we have to be patient and receptive to have them revealed to you.
The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab, is comprised of Ayats , agreed?
Yes, all the signs form the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds comprises the God's Book (Al Kitaab)
The Creation, as a whole, as well as all of its individual parts, are also Ayats.
Not "also", this is what we have been talking about from the beginning, the whole of creation.
Al-Quran, "the Reading" ,
This reading, the 114 chapters, informs us to read the signs from the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds, yes.
likewise, is comprised of Ayats.
Yes, but the verses are not ayats, it is the guidance within that is the "sign", which POINTS, as signs do, to the Universal Laws comprising creation(Al Kitaab)
The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab is comprised of fully detailed Ayats, and, is a fully detailed Book in and of itself, as well as, all of its constituent parts.
You are saying that the signs from the Horizons to within our Spirits/Minds is fully detailed, I agree. I do not agree that its PARTS are also fully detailed. The part can NEVER compare to the WHOLE(God). Thats like comparing a drop of water to the ocean.
Now, given that Al-Quran is a part of the Book of Alllah/Al-Kitab/part of the Creation, then, as with IT, Al-Quran must also be...fully detailed.
No. You mustn't compare the part to the WHOLE(God).
-
salams idol,
Shuiab, yes i simultaneously take Kitaab to mean BOOK AND Universal Laws when refering to the God's Book. Just like I take the arabic word for "FACE" to be a literal face and also CHARACTER when refering to the God's face. Likewise I take the arabic word for HAND as a literal hand and also "control/power".
The key word is SIMULTANEOUS bro. Take for example
He burned with hatred.
BURNED... it can mean LITERALLY something burning, or expressing an overflowing emotion... the one word can mean 2 things.
But in the ONE sentence, it can ONLY mean one thing... either literal burning, or figurative.. not BOTH at the SAME TIME..
The same way, al-kitaab, if you want to translate it as UNIVERSAL LAWS, then do so.. if you want to translate it as book, do so. But you CANNOT do that in the SAME sentence with ONE WORD.
ESPECIALLY in your example since you are not only taking 2 simulataneous meanings but using the word twice! (from al-kitab into another al-kitab).
-
Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Lets try this, lets say that I took a piece of paper and wrote the 13th amendment to the US constitution on it, have I not written the LAW(of man) with my own hands?
-
idol,
that's not what you're doing with the verse though. let me explain another way.
i wrote al-kitab.
Either this can mean i wrote the universal laws, or i wrote a physical book. it CANNOT mean i wrote the universal laws down into a book, UNLESS i say "i wrote al-kitaab into al-kitaab".
-
Peace be upon you Shuiab,
It means one has written the universal law with thier hands, this implies a book, and based on actual life, it is confiremd true. Please write books and state they are from the God when all physical books are written by humans, the God's Book is all of creation.
-
PEACE, IDOL,
Althought the following ayat is not properly translated in total, nonetheless, it is referring to Al-Quran as the The Book/ Al-Kitab
37 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
-
Peace be upon you PB,
37 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical...
The Universe has some signs that are basic, others which are not.
-
PEACE, IDOL,
Peace be upon you PB,
37 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical...
The Universe has some signs that are basic, others which are not.
-
As Allah is you withness, are you stating that Book, in the above ayat, is not at all referring to Al-Quran, is this your position?
-
Please give us an example of a basic Universal sign as opposed to one that is not.
-
Allah, does not use Al-Kitab for His creation and its laws, rather, he uses khalaqa
2764 Or, Who originates the creation, then repeats it, and who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah. Say, "Bring forth your argument, if ye are telling the truth!"
2764 Amman yabdao al-khalqa thumma yuAAeeduhu waman yarzuqukum mina assamai walardi ailahun maAAa Allahi qul hatoo burhanakum in kuntum sadiqeen.
2919 See they not how Allah originates the creation, then repeats it truly that is easy for Allah.
2919 Awa lam yaraw kayfa yubdio Allahu alkhalqa thumma yuAAeeduhu inna thalika AAala Allahi yaseer
2920 Say "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate the creation; so will Allah produce a later creation for Allah has power over all things.
2920 Qul seeroo fee alardi fanthuroo kayfa badaa alkhalqa thumma Allahu yunshio annashata alakhirata inna Allaha AAala kulli shayin qadeer
3011 It is Allah Who begins the creation; then repeats it; then shall ye be brought back to Him.
3011 Allahu yabdao alkhalqa thumma yuAAeeduhu thumma ilayhi turjaAAoon
3027 It is He Who begins the creation; then repeats it; and for Him it is most easy. To Him belongs the loftiest similitude (we can think of) in the heavens and the earth for He is Exalted in Might, full of wisdom.
3027 Wahuwa allathee yabdao alkhalqa thumma yuAAeeduhu wahuwa ahwanu AAalayhi walahu almathalu alaAAla fee assamawati walardi wahuwa alAAazeezu alhakeem
Clearly, Al-Kitab and Al-Khalaqa are different quantities. I've found no reference/ayat where Allah equates the The Creation with the Book.
Looking forward to your reply.
-