=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

I believe pious scribes WROTE this reading(quran) with thier hands, the initial message was intuited by a person who transcended to the level of Prophethood. The error was in claiming the God as the author, thus limiting the God's Words. The Gods words never run out, this reading ends at chapter 114. It is a guide, written by man, if it is true and does not contradict, then it is from the God , but not authored by the God.

"If it doesn't contradict"?? Have you or anyone else found one?

1037 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah.

Main Entry PRODUCE to cause to have existence or to happen BRING ABOUT b to give being, form, or shape to.

Main Entry AUTHOR one that originates or creates source.

Given the above ayat and definitions, on what grounds do you maintain that Allah, is not the author of Al-Quran??

With each succeeding post, you are more and more casting doubt on the inviolability of Allah's Quran , thus, sacrificing it/forsaking it, for your, and I can only describe it as...dubious and slick interpetations.. Come back to common sense.

This goes for you too, Shuaib.

Looking forward to your reply

shuaib

This goes for you too, Shuaib.

haha

)

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab, you have agreed is fully detailed, yes? The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab, is comprised of Ayats , agreed? The Creation, as a whole, as well as all of its individual parts, are also Ayats. Al-Quran, "the Reading" , likewise, is comprised of Ayats. The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab is comprised of fully detailed Ayats, and, is a fully detailed Book in and of itself, as well as, all of its constituent parts. Now, given that Al-Quran is a part of the Book of Alllah/Al-Kitab/part of the Creation, then, as with IT, Al-Quran must also be...fully detailed.

Peace.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Shuiab and PB,

Shuiab, yes i simultaneously take Kitaab to mean BOOK AND Universal Laws when refering to the God's Book. Just like I take the arabic word for "FACE" to be a literal face and also CHARACTER when refering to the God's face. Likewise I take the arabic word for HAND as a literal hand and also "control/power".

PB

The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab, you have agreed is fully detailed, yes?

Yes, the signs from the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds is fully detailed, we have to be patient and receptive to have them revealed to you.

The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab, is comprised of Ayats , agreed?

Yes, all the signs form the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds comprises the God's Book (Al Kitaab)

The Creation, as a whole, as well as all of its individual parts, are also Ayats.

Not "also", this is what we have been talking about from the beginning, the whole of creation.

Al-Quran, "the Reading" ,

This reading, the 114 chapters, informs us to read the signs from the horizons to within our Spirits/Minds, yes.

likewise, is comprised of Ayats.

Yes, but the verses are not ayats, it is the guidance within that is the "sign", which POINTS, as signs do, to the Universal Laws comprising creation(Al Kitaab)

The Book of Allah/Al-Kitab is comprised of fully detailed Ayats, and, is a fully detailed Book in and of itself, as well as, all of its constituent parts.

You are saying that the signs from the Horizons to within our Spirits/Minds is fully detailed, I agree. I do not agree that its PARTS are also fully detailed. The part can NEVER compare to the WHOLE(God). Thats like comparing a drop of water to the ocean.

Now, given that Al-Quran is a part of the Book of Alllah/Al-Kitab/part of the Creation, then, as with IT, Al-Quran must also be...fully detailed.

No. You mustn't compare the part to the WHOLE(God).

shuaib

salams idol,

Shuiab, yes i simultaneously take Kitaab to mean BOOK AND Universal Laws when refering to the God's Book. Just like I take the arabic word for "FACE" to be a literal face and also CHARACTER when refering to the God's face. Likewise I take the arabic word for HAND as a literal hand and also "control/power".

The key word is SIMULTANEOUS bro. Take for example

He burned with hatred.

BURNED... it can mean LITERALLY something burning, or expressing an overflowing emotion... the one word can mean 2 things.

But in the ONE sentence, it can ONLY mean one thing... either literal burning, or figurative.. not BOTH at the SAME TIME..

The same way, al-kitaab, if you want to translate it as UNIVERSAL LAWS, then do so.. if you want to translate it as book, do so. But you CANNOT do that in the SAME sentence with ONE WORD.

ESPECIALLY in your example since you are not only taking 2 simulataneous meanings but using the word twice! (from al-kitab into another al-kitab).

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Shuiab,

Lets try this, lets say that I took a piece of paper and wrote the 13th amendment to the US constitution on it, have I not written the LAW(of man) with my own hands?

shuaib

idol,

that's not what you're doing with the verse though. let me explain another way.

i wrote al-kitab.

Either this can mean i wrote the universal laws, or i wrote a physical book. it CANNOT mean i wrote the universal laws down into a book, UNLESS i say "i wrote al-kitaab into al-kitaab".

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Shuiab,

It means one has written the universal law with thier hands, this implies a book, and based on actual life, it is confiremd true. Please write books and state they are from the God when all physical books are written by humans, the God's Book is all of creation.

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

Althought the following ayat is not properly translated in total, nonetheless, it is referring to Al-Quran as the The Book/ Al-Kitab

37 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

shuaib

peace idol,

i have no clue what you just said. but to each his own i guess.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

37 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical...

The Universe has some signs that are basic, others which are not.

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

Peace be upon you PB,

37 He it is Who has sent down to you the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical...

The Universe has some signs that are basic, others which are not.

As Allah is you withness, are you stating that Book, in the above ayat, is not at all referring to Al-Quran, is this your position?
Please give us an example of a basic Universal sign as opposed to one that is not.
Allah, does not use Al-Kitab for His creation and its laws, rather, he uses khalaqa

2764 Or, Who originates the creation, then repeats it, and who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah. Say, "Bring forth your argument, if ye are telling the truth!"

2764 Amman yabdao al-khalqa thumma yuAAeeduhu waman yarzuqukum mina assamai walardi ailahun maAAa Allahi qul hatoo burhanakum in kuntum sadiqeen.

2919 See they not how Allah originates the creation, then repeats it truly that is easy for Allah.

2919 Awa lam yaraw kayfa yubdio Allahu alkhalqa thumma yuAAeeduhu inna thalika AAala Allahi yaseer

2920 Say "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate the creation; so will Allah produce a later creation for Allah has power over all things.

2920 Qul seeroo fee alardi fanthuroo kayfa badaa alkhalqa thumma Allahu yunshio annashata alakhirata inna Allaha AAala kulli shayin qadeer

3011 It is Allah Who begins the creation; then repeats it; then shall ye be brought back to Him.

3011 Allahu yabdao alkhalqa thumma yuAAeeduhu thumma ilayhi turjaAAoon

3027 It is He Who begins the creation; then repeats it; and for Him it is most easy. To Him belongs the loftiest similitude (we can think of) in the heavens and the earth for He is Exalted in Might, full of wisdom.

3027 Wahuwa allathee yabdao alkhalqa thumma yuAAeeduhu wahuwa ahwanu AAalayhi walahu almathalu alaAAla fee assamawati walardi wahuwa alAAazeezu alhakeem

Clearly, Al-Kitab and Al-Khalaqa are different quantities. I've found no reference/ayat where Allah equates the The Creation with the Book.

Looking forward to your reply.

mmkhan

PEACE, MMKHAN,

Peace be upon you priest,

Sorry for the late reply.

Is Al-Quran contained within Al-Kitab or is it separate and distinct from Al-Kitab?

No, but Al-Kitab contained within Al-Quraan. It is not seperate. Please see

"This Quran could not have been produced without Allah, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail of the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds." 1037

Al-Quraan gives details about Al-Kitaab.

"Those to whom We have given the Scripture, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it." 689

All those prophets got Al-Kitaab (singlular). Same Al-Kitaab not Al-Quraan has been given to every prophet. This means

1- Al-Quraan cannot contained within Al-Kitaab
2- Al-Kitaab is not Al-Quraan because it was given to all Prophets

If it is a separate, is it, unto itself, a complete/perfect book?

It is indeed a perfect book and Al-Quraan also detail it.

"And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Scripture as a clarification for all things, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have surrendered." 1689

"And there is not a creature in the Earth, or a bird that fly's with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the Book; then to their Lord they will be gathered." 638

"Shall I seek other than Allah as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt." 6114

Is there any doubt in Al-Quran?

Cannot answer, sorry. Because don't have any proof at this time.

People are making changes in Al-Quraan. As Dr. Khalifa's Book, he removed two verses from Sura 9 (Al-Tauba)

Relative to/specific to --guidance,

GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .),

is every explanation/full details regarding it , found in Al-Quran?

Upto there it is fine. But as per my understanding using of right hand, etc.. are more details.

Al-Kitaab is the guidance of righteous 22
Al-Quraan is the guidance for mankind 1185. Al-Kitaab got explainations for everything 1689 Al-Quraan does not

Well, aren't the righteous apart of mankind? Are you saying that, once someone becomes "righteous", Al-Quran is no longer for them??

It does not mean that when we become righteous, Al-Quraan is no longer useful for us. No, as I said above Al-Quraan details Al-Kitaab.

Regards,

MMKhan

unknownuser

Salaams Br. MMkhan,

Sorry to ask you ,if you have already covered the quistion

Isn't the A-Kitaab = Tora, and the quran explaining the the things that got screwed up by the jews?

If you know.

Also see the following .

Thalika alkitabu larayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
2.
Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?
3.
And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong) There was a chance for you to be guided aright.
4.
And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
5.
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

Just starting this topic.

God Bless.

unknownuser

PEACE, MMKHAN,

Please respond to the following

GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .

Main Entry BOOK a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume something that yields knowledge or understanding the total available knowledge and experience that can be brought to bear on a task or problem.

According to the above definiton of a book, Al-Quran, that is, 11 to 114, constitutes a book, and the problem/task it was sent to address was...guidance .

Allah, defines His Guidance/Quran as...perfect and complete .

Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.

Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.

Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction

Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.

Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.

Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, that is all

Looking forward to your reply.

unknownuser

Salaams priest,MM,All,

?He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed??

?This? where does "this" come from in the ayat?

002.002
YUSUFALI This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

Also in this trans ?This? is wrong I think

FalyaAAbudoo rabba hatha albayti

Let them adore the Lord of this House,

Thalika alkitabu larayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

In both these ayat?s ?hatha? and ?Thalika? are used as this , when I think one means ?this? and the other something like ?that?.

Lets see how Allah refers to the quran- for this , as we know this is the quran.

Waqala allatheena kafaroo latasmaAAoo lihatha alqur-ani wailghaw feehilaAAallakum taghliboona

The Unbelievers say "Listen not to this Qur'an, but talk at random in the midst of its (reading), that ye may gain the upper hand!"

Here it is hatha ? this. And not Thalika for ?this?

But may someone else could verify these.

God Bless .

mmkhan

Salaams Br. MMkhan,

Wa Alaikum Salaam Br. Mz.,

Sorry to ask you ,if you have already covered the quistion

Please read the previous messeges in this thread. You may find your answer.

Isn't the A-Kitaab = Tora, and the quran explaining the the things that got screwed up by the jews?

If you know.

Al-Kitaab is given to all the Prophets that means it cannot be only Taurah. Please read the previous messeges in this thread.

Also see the following .

Thalika alkitabu larayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
2.
Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?
3.
And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong) There was a chance for you to be guided aright.
4.
And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
5.
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

For "thalika" you have corrected yourself in your next post. You can understand here that Al-Quraan and Al-Kitaab is not same.

May Allah open our hearts to understand the Truth.

Regards,

MMKhan

unknownuser

PEACE, MMKHAN,

You didn't answer my question at all, please do so, thanks. Please refer back to my prior post to you to reaquaint yourself with the pertinent ayats and definitions

Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.

Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, that is all

Looking forward to your reply.

mmkhan

PEACE, MMKHAN,

Brother Priest, Peace be upon you.

You didn't answer my question at all, please do so, thanks. Please refer back to my prior post to you to reaquaint yourself with the pertinent ayats and definitions

Brother I was supposed to answer your question but the problem is time. As you know my mom is very ill and I could not able to give time here.

Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.

Yes you are right "Al-Quraan is a book--11 to 1146" But we are discussing here AL-Kitaab, THE Book.

Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, that is all

Looking forward to your reply.

InshaAllah, I will try to answer your question soon.

Regards,

MMKhan

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

As Allah is you withness, are you stating that Book, in the above ayat, is not at all referring to Al-Quran, is this your position?

The God is Witness Always, uncovering an error in your perception of the Seer.

Yes, my position is that Al Kitaab in this verse refers to the universal laws of creation, seen and unseen.

Please give us an example of a basic Universal sign as opposed to one that is not.

(37) ...He is who descended on you The Book(Universal Law) , from it (are) perfected/tightened signs, they are (F) The Book's mother, and others resembling/ambiguous/obscure..

The perfected signs are those laws which we see in the physical world, the signs that RESEMBLE the physical laws are the Mental/Spiritual Laws.

A universal law on the physical plane would be that you feed your body with nutitious food, you will be physically healthy.

A universal law that resembles this is if you feed your mind/spirit righteousness(good food), your mind/spirit will be healthy on a spiritual level.

If you excercise your body it will get strong, if you excercise your mind/spirit, you will get strong.

Allah, does not use Al-Kitab for His creation and its laws, rather, he uses khalaqa