SOME VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS...
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Peace be upon you PB,
We've come to that time again, you are losing your patience like Musa when he was learning higher wisdom from the unnamed teacher. I have to say Peace to you, maybe we will resume our debate another day.
LOL! Listen, the questions put to you were not trick questions or some profound philosophical problem. All you needed do was answer yes or no. Anyway, you have to live with yourself not me, but your credibility, at least for me, is now suspect. I will not question you after this.
Peace.
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PEACE, LOTE TREE,
It is my understanding that, the questions I asked, will demarcate the Muslim from the mushrik /munafiq .
Peace.Oh Priest Bokmei,
Demacrate the Muslim? But I don't label myself with anything! Why do you intend to label others with polythiest or hypocrite?
Simply a belief in God not enough?Regards,
I'm sorry if this makes you feel uncomfortable, Lote. If we are not submitting to Allah by obeying His Quran, then we are taking something else a god to guide.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, LOTE TREE,
It is my understanding that, the questions I asked, will demarcate the Muslim from the mushrik /munafiq .
Peace.Oh Priest Bokmei,
Demacrate the Muslim? But I don't label myself with anything! Why do you intend to label others with polythiest or hypocrite?
Simply a belief in God not enough?Regards,
I'm sorry if this makes you feel uncomfortable, Lote. If we are not submitting to Allah by obeying His Quran, then we are taking something else a god to guide.
Looking forward to your reply.
Hello Priest Bokmei,
No, it does not make me uncomfortable at all.
But I believe by labelling it makes it easy to deny another human beings dignity. Just by saying this person is a Kaffir he becomes instantly less of a human being doesn't he? I feel that is wrong. What say you?Regards,
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PEACE, LOTE TREE,
No, it does not make me uncomfortable at all.
But I believe by labelling it makes it easy to deny another human beings dignity. Just by saying this person is a Kaffir he becomes instantly less of a human being doesn't he? I feel that is wrong. What say you?I'm gald you are not uncomfortable, good deal.
There is nothing wrong with labeling, and it is wrong thinking to believe that it is. Allah has labelled those who submit to Him...Muslims, and has labelled those who do not, rejectors.
I haven't called anyone a kaffir.
What say you?
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I'm gald you are not uncomfortable, good deal.
There is nothing wrong with labeling, and it is wrong thinking to believe that it is. Allah has labelled those who submit to Him...Muslims, and has labelled those who do not, rejectors.
Read this on Power of Labels http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3604
I haven't called anyone a kaffir.
What say you?Kaffir is Unbeliever isn't it? The demarcation between Muslim and others?
Regards,
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Salaams lote,
you said
"But I believe by labelling it makes it easy to deny another human beings dignity. Just by saying this person is a Kaffir he becomes instantly less of a human being doesn't he? I feel that is wrong. What say you? "
Can't we have a temporary label?to define a person according to their actions?
like a thief is a thief,but only when ever his actions are such.
But if he persists for a life time then he is one for life ain't he?
Don't you deny a thief the dignity which you would give him otherwise?
Same with one who commits or doesn't commit,believes or doesn't believe temporary or for life.
May be i am not comprehending this as you , but please explain -thanks.
Salaams.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams lote,
you said
"But I believe by labelling it makes it easy to deny another human beings dignity. Just by saying this person is a Kaffir he becomes instantly less of a human being doesn't he? I feel that is wrong. What say you? "
Can't we have a temporary label?to define a person according to their actions?
like a thief is a thief,but only when ever his actions are such.
But if he persists for a life time then he is one for life ain't he?
Don't you deny a thief the dignity which you would give him otherwise?
Same with one who commits or doesn't commit,believes or doesn't believe temporary or for life.
May be i am not comprehending this as you , but please explain -thanks.
Salaams.
Good point, MZ.
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like a thief is a thief,but only when ever his actions are such.
But if he persists for a life time then he is one for life ain't he?The above is actions of "man-to-man" relationship. We are talking about "man-to-god" relationships and this is I think is different. And since we have different views on God, therefore it is important how you label them. If you call others hypocrites, unbelievers, kaffirs because they are unable to believe in your view of God then in your eyes they become a less of a human being don't they?
But we are all human beings regardless of faith aren't we?
Peopel don't become less human because they don't have your faith...Regards,
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PEACE, LOTE TREE,
The above is actions of "man-to-man" relationship. We are talking about "man-to-god" relationships and this is I think is different. And since we have different views on God, therefore it is important how you label them. If you call others hypocrites, unbelievers, kaffirs because they are unable to believe in your view of God then in your eyes they become a less of a human being don't they?
But we are all human beings regardless of faith aren't we?
Peopel don't become less human because they don't have your faith...As I said, rejector and Muslim are labels which Allah gives to Man. If some ones "rejects" that doesn't make that individual less than human. One can accept and reject and then reject again and then beleive again, before settling into one of those two states. Regardless, the rejector, doesn't cease being a human being. You are off on a false premise, Lote.
People of other faiths really need to examine if their faith is in alignment with what Allah has established.
Peace.
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Regardless, the rejector, doesn't cease being a human being.
I am glad that you think so too -)
But someone would consider a Hindu as less human because they don't happen to believe in Islamic God. And certain cultures have been brought up to think like that. And I think that is wrong but at least you are not like that and that is good thing -)
Regards,
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Salaam,
I am with Lote Tree on this one, the fact that GOD labels people in His Qur'an does not give us the right to do so, infact it is forbidden.
We don't need to name call individuals as if someone is rejecting GODs Qur'an we know how to approach this person, we don't need to gain advantage by warning off others. Everyone has been given a brain to evaluate others. But we also must be conscious of our error prone nature and we may regret what we think later, utterring it makes it a lot worse as its slander.
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PEACE, ASH SHUURA,
I am with Lote Tree on this one, the fact that GOD labels people in His Qur'an does not give us the right to do so, infact it is forbidden.
Please post the ayat which supports you claim.
We don't need to name call individuals as if someone is rejecting GODs Qur'an we know how to approach this person, we don't need to gain advantage by warning off others. Everyone has been given a brain to evaluate others. But we also must be conscious of our error prone nature and we may regret what we think later, utterring it makes it a lot worse as its slander.
This sounds good, but, if you are a Muslim...do you label yourself as such?
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Peace Priest Bokmei,
I will do what you ask for, and likewise I ask in return that you post the ayat showing you are allowed to name people "kaffir".
I submit the first ayat as the definitive proof and other ayats for important behaviour patterns associated with this behaviour.
494 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
4911 O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or make fun of your names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors.
496 O you who believe, if a wicked person brings any news to you, you shall first investigate, lest you commit injustice towards some people, out of ignorance, then become sorry and remorseful for what you have done.
This sounds good, but, if you are a Muslim...do you label yourself as such?
Strange logic...how is calling someone a muslim a ridicule, a mock or asserting ones own superiority over the other. A kaffir calling a muslim "oi muslim?!" how is that asserting kaffir superiority over the muslim? I don't know anyone who would not be offended by being called disbeliever, heathen etc...but the reverse would be really surprising, I mean someone taking offense to being called a believer.
A question for you finally Why did you say " if you are a Muslim..." I want to know exactly what made you say that? I am intrigued as to why one would speak in this manner...
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
I will do what you ask for, and likewise I ask in return that you post the ayat showing you are allowed to name people "kaffir". I submit the first ayat as the definitive proof and other ayats for important behaviour patterns associated with this behaviour.
Before I proceed, are Jerry Falwell and the current Pope, kaffirs? Yes or no?
494 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
The above ayat, from my understanding, forbids a believer from calling someone a rejector in order to rationalize attacking them and securing war spoils. The motive is wrong in the above ayat for accusing someone of being a rejector. I cannot at this time think of an ayat which says to label someone a rejector nor do I see one where Allah expressly forbids it either. However, your point has merit. I will give it more thought.
This sounds good, but, if you are a Muslim...do you label yourself as such?
Strange logic...how is calling someone a muslim a ridicule, a mock or asserting ones own superiority over the other. A kaffir calling a muslim "oi muslim?!" how is that asserting kaffir superiority over the muslim? I don't know anyone who would not be offended by being called disbeliever, heathen etc...but the reverse would be really surprising, I mean someone taking offense to being called a believer.
You lost me here; I'm not certain what you mean.
A question for you finally Why did you say " if you are a Muslim..." I want to know exactly what made you say that? I am intrigued as to why one would speak in this manner...
What manner is that?? I am simply curious if you are Muslim or not and do you mind that label.
Now, let me ask you a question
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
A. 53...This day have I perfected for you your deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as a deen...
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Q. What is meant by necessary, essential, indispensable, and detailed?
A. Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry ESSENTIAL something on which an outcome turns or depends. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable of the utmost importance indispensible necessary mean so important as to be indispensable belonging to the very nature of a thing and therefore being incapable of removal without destroying the thing itself or its character applies to something that is a foundation without which an entire system or complex whole would collapse suggests something that is necessary to a thing's continued existence or operation.
Main Entry INDISPENSABLE absolutely necessary essential.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,
My opinion,
No.
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error.
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PEACE, ANDYA PRIMANDA,
THE QUESTION Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Perfect and Complete Book of Guidance, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,
My opinion,
No.
Is it your opinion or do you know for a certainty? Opinion, is not positive knowledge. Thank you for answering the question directly.
The only sane/taqwa answer to that question is "no", hence, Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/in respect to--- the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , is fully detailed. For if it weren't, then mankind would inevitably/inexorably...be lead to...HELL.
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PEACE, ANDYA PRIMANDA,
Is it your opinion or do you know for a certainty? Opinion, is not positive knowledge. Thank you for answering the question directly.
I can't claim certainty but I put my wager on that being correct.
God knows, Wallahu alam.
Besides, looking for details (as we see with the traditionalists) end up making the right path too complicated and near-impossible to follow. Yet for some reason I have yet to understand, people crave these details. What do you think, PRIEST_BOKMEI? Why do people crave details and particularities?
I still remember conflicting teachings from Sunni imams. One taught that Islam is easy to follow. Another rolls out a whole set of rules and claimed that if I break even one of them my Islam isn't complete.
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Priest Bokmei,
You better watch it asking yes or no questions like that, you are not the law. It seems you've copied one of Dhulqarnains posts.
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PEACE, ANDYA PRIMANDA,
Besides, looking for details (as we see with the traditionalists) end up making the right path too complicated and near-impossible to follow. Yet for some reason I have yet to understand, people crave these details. What do you think, PRIEST_BOKMEI? Why do people crave details and particularities?
This is a great question, Andya. Why don't you start a thread on it. WHY DO PEOPLE CRAVE DETAILS...? Sounds like a good discussion to me. What do you think?
I still remember conflicting teachings from Sunni imams. One taught that Islam is easy to follow. Another rolls out a whole set of rules and claimed that if I break even one of them my Islam isn't complete.
Right on the money!...it's time to take back Allah's Deen.